1 government run health care ? you mean like the kind that vets and seniors and people who work for our municipal, state, and federal governments all get ?

2 Yes, exactly right, and it's chilling, even moreso for the enthusiasm with which so many anticipate universal health care in America.  Let is really be blunt about it:  it will kill some of us unnecessarily, for reasons which will only make sense to Moonbats.  Some of the rest of us will see our lives shortened, not only because of bureaucratic malfeasance but also because the incentives for medical breakthroughs will dissipate.

Our healthcare will be in the hands of unaccountable civil service bureaucrats.  I get a chill just thinking about it.  The rationalizing defenses for all of this will be both awesome and terrible to behold.

3 In fact, the whole point of "universal" healthcare is that it the same crappy product is provided to everyone regardless in spite of their ability to pay.  

Health care from the folks that brought you the Transportation Security Agency. Nice! Can I still wear my shoes and belt into the hospital?

4 John Ryan, you are retarded, aren't you?  That's government funded, administered in a private enterprise...and even that's bad enough.  Fool.

5 Also, big difference between a group of people consisting of civil service employees, congressmen and vets, and EVERY FUCKING ONE.

When it involves EVERYONE, it's going to be a just a wee bit more costly and difficult to manage.

6 Government provided health care! What could possibly go wrong?



  

7 John Ryan,

Try thinking, then typing.  Americans are allowed to purchase their own health care no matter what they already get from some other source.

The British are not.

Get it?

Anus.

8 There's a reason Critical Illness insurance is in such demand in the UK - if you need serious medical care - and I mean GOOD serious medical care - a CI policy of $100K (or whatever the pound equivalent is) allows you to bypass the usual nonsense and go straight to a medical professional who will give you the treatment you need.

9 "Government provided health care! What could possibly go wrong?"

Don't be cynical!  We'll get our finest unaccountable time-servers to iron out all the details so that everything is fair and utopian.

Don't you worry!  Our asses will be totally covered!

10

This post doesn't take into account:

1. Hope

2. Change

3. Free stuff

11 JR,

Your mom's calling, dinner is ready.  Leave the basement and help clean up after you've finished eating.

12 John Ryan,

I forget, are you dumb or dumber?

Do you really think outside of the military and the VA, that federal, state and local government employees go to government owned and operated hospitals?

And seniors? Do you even know the difference between government provided insurance and how the NHS is organized in the UK?  You don't, do you?

Idiot.

And to think that politicians pushing this shit are doing it to pander to assholes like you. Fantastic!

13 There is nothing a government can touch and not totally fuck up . As a Canadian , all I can say is DON'T DO IT !

14 John Ryan,

      If you could just fit that wiki-fart onto a bumper sticker you'd be set. No cost to universal health care at all! I sure this isn't related. Maybe the government can issue you some anti-retard pills (if they are covered).

15 There is nothing more expensive than " No cost healthcare ".

16 Anoni Moose:

Nah, he's terminal--socialized medicine doesn't waste money on those that are going to perish anyway.

17 JR for President!

18 on 5/17 i blogged a similar event:

http://astuteblogger.blogspot.com/2008/05/nhs-punishes-people-if-they-go-ever.html

NHS PUNISHES PEOPLE IF THEY GO EVER PRIVATE THIS JUST SEEMS SO SO SO SOOOO TYPICAL OF STATE MONOPOLIES; LONDON TIMES:
The National Health Service has refused to pay for an operation to prevent a pensioner’s agonising migraines because the woman paid privately for earlier treatment.

Maureen Alden, 74, from Bristol, spent her life savings on a £13,000 operation two years ago to implant wires into her brain which prevent migraines by stimulating the nerves. The operation was successful and cut her attacks by 80%.

The battery which powers the medical device is about to run out, however, and the retired typist cannot obtain funding for a replacement.

Alden’s case will reignite the debate over the ban on NHS patients supplementing their care by paying for treatments that are not funded by the health service.

Breast cancer sufferers have been told they will be denied NHS treatment if they pay privately for “top-up” drugs. Patients are taking legal action to fight the ban.

19 JR thinks Germany conquered Great Briton.

20 Britain

Twit.

21  The fact is that we already have government mandated universal healthcare. It's just called something else. No one is refused medical care because they can't (or won't) pay for it, even if they are here illegally. As a result your taxes and insurance premiums are raised to cover it. A medical facility must charge enough from those who pay to cover all the costs of those who don't. So, what's going to change?  Only your paycheck.                                                                                                                                          

22 I have run a series of posts on my blog which advocates the French system in which the care is privately delivered and most citizens are covered by employer funded plans, similar to ours, but it has universal coverage. France spends about 10% of GNP on healthcare, which is the highest in Europe but we spend 16% or more. The NHS made some bad decisions in the early years; Thatcher introduced good reforms but Labour took most of them away after they regained power. The French system is much more like ours than the Germans. It's a lot easier to add incremental reforms than to pull the whole system up by the roots, as Hillary proposed in 1993.

23 Hey, come on, ya gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet. We need the government to take over the health-care industry so we can all be equally miserable, except for the nomenklaturaCongress and the federal bureaucracy, who will get the best care your money can buy. It's for the children!

24

I spent nearly a month in Germany last year on business, and I guess they never read John Ryan's essay on the perfection of their system, since they spent a surprising amount of time bitching like hell about it.  The only thing that made them seem happier was talking about how at least they "knew" the US system was worse (and the French system, and the UK system, and...).  By the time I got finished explaining the realties of our system to them, they needed much more beer to cry in.

Most major health care advances from medications to surgical techniques and tools, etc, come from the USA.  When people have "inoperable" tumors or other terrifying diseases, do they fly to France or Germany or the UK?  No, they come to the USA.

Socialized medicine in the USA (and it is inevitable) will be run with the cost-effectiveness of the Pentagon, the empathy and kindess of the DMV, the accountibility of the TSA, the pork-fattened  largess of the Farm Bill, and bottom-line ruthlessness of the IRS.  (I'll bet that government medical bills will be treated just like taxes and added to "non-forgivable" bankruptcy debts.) 

But at least everyone will be equally miserable.  Every pro-socialized medicine nut I've talked to in the USA has clearly expected that it will be "business as usual, except it will be free."  I have a morbid interest in observing their faces scrunch up like a three-year old who had his ice cream taken away once the reality sets in.

As noted above, the dirty, dirty secret of socialized medicine is the rationing.  Seattle has more MRI machines than all of Canada.  The UK withholds expensive treatments (eg, dialysis) from people over a certain age.  Japan will gladly pull your tooth, but not give a you a crown.  And in all those places, the taxes taken from your paycheck to fund the slovenly mess exceed what we pay in the USA for health insurance.

(A side note: if socialized medicine supplies all the needs of the comrades in the proletariat, why were there ads from Blue Cross running on TV last time I was in Canada?  Why did my brother-in-law choose one job over another because of the health benefits?)

And one last juicy point: liberals, lawyers, and their ilk are very fond indeed of medical malpractice suits and the mind-boggling sums to be made from them, especially the class-action types advetised ad nauseum on late night TV.  Well, say goodbye to 98% of that gold mine under solicialized medicine. Ever tried suing the government...? 

Anyway, it doesn't matter.  America will be a socialist country in a decade.  One can only hope some of the currently unhappy socialist countries like Denmark will be crawling out from under that shroud by then and useful people like me will have a place to go and pursue the old American dream.  Go East, young man!

25 Yep, one of the reasons these other countries can offer crappy third rate social medicine, is because the US  funds most of the R&D for medical care and pharmaceuticals.

26 And one last juicy point: liberals, lawyers, and their ilk are very fond indeed of medical malpractice suits and the mind-boggling sums to be made from them, especially the class-action types advetised ad nauseum on late night TV.

Imagine how much lower our medical costs in the US might be if we weren't also paying for a lot of the legal profession (and the defensive behaviors designed to hold them off) when we pay for medical care.  Tort reform would benefit everyone-- no tort reform benefits relatively few.

27 Most major health care advances from medications to surgical techniques and tools, etc, come from the USA. When people have "inoperable" tumors or other terrifying diseases, do they fly to France or Germany or the UK? No, they come to the USA.

Exactly. To paraphrase Mark Steyn, Euro-socialism is basically subsidized by the American taxpayer and consumer. European states live under the U.S. defense umbrella, so they can shovel money into bread and circuses that they wouldn't be able to afford if they had to maintain a military capable of defending the state all by itself. American companies generate most new drugs, health treatments, equipment, etc. and have to recoup most of their costs in the U.S., as in Europe their products get price-controlled, rationed, and so on.

Of course, this begs the question of what happens if the American public decides to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. Most likely, after enough people get denied treatments and stuck on years-long waiting lists, politicians will be able to whip up a fervor against the eeeeeevil healthcare corporations and impose more restrictions or just outright take them over. Want that cancer treatment, comrade? Who says you should get it instead of Comrade John (who just happens to have a wealthy uncle in Congress)?

28 #14 AM,

your article is a bit old, here is a more up to date one:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2005/03/12/cneucham12.xml

sorry I can't do the fancy linkage, but I'm on a mac...

29 Manji... Lawyers not being able to make mind boggling sums on malpractice suits seems kind of a feature rather than a bug.
Other than that I liked and agreed with your comment.

30 "Of course, this begs the question of what happens if the American public decides to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. Most likely, after enough people get denied treatments and stuck on years-long waiting lists, politicians will be able to whip up a fervor against the eeeeeevil healthcare corporations and impose more restrictions or just outright take them over."

I'm more optimistic and think that people will wake up to how horrible socialism is.

31

I was watching a Premier League game over the net about a month ago and imagine my astonishment to see a commercial for private health insurance for the UK.

http://www.bupa.co.uk/

And I thought the NHS was free, and covered everything.

Odd, that.

 

Also, if Sen. Kennedy were a regular citizen in the UK, Canada, Germany, et.al.,  the chances of him receiving radiation and chemo for a glioblastoma at his age is nil.

32

I live in Taiwan which has a form of national healthcare, except I believe you have to be working to get it. In any case, they also have private care and insurance and you can buy your own drugs if you want.

So, while I am for a free market in healthcare, the NHS seems to be the worst case scenario for universal helath care and a very useful warning to everyone.

33 It's like shouting into the wind.  No one is listening.  It's staggering to me that America is contemplating this when they can see in Canada, France and the UK that IT DOES NOT WORK.

34

We have the "safety net" here in Australia.  There is private health care, but also the public system.

Politicians made promises to cut the insanely long waiting lists for operations on the public system.  In order to do so they reclassified a number of operations. 

A hip replacement was reclassified as optional surgery, since people can use wheelchairs to get around.

They also kicked everyone off the lists who had been waiting over a certain time and made them reapply.

Then there's the issue of lack of doctors since the government massively restricted the number of places in universities for them many years ago and are madly scrambling to address the problem.

Your pollies are pushing for it, so soon you guys will enjoy the quality of death we've been enjoying down here for years.

35 Our State-run health system in Australia is not quite so blatant, but there still is subtle rationing going on.  For instance, if something is not covered by Medicare, many doctors will not even bother telling patients about it in the first place.  Maybe they reckon it'd be cruel to tell a cancer-sufferer, "Well, there is a drug showing very good results in America but it is not on the PBS here so it would cost you at least $50,000/annum to get it here, so I won't tell you about it so you don't get disappointed."

Or maybe they don't want people to know that there are better treatments which they'd have to sell their homes to get because they don't want them going and crying all over the MSM about our Heartless Government?

Dunno, but as a cancer-sufferer myself I've relied heavily on the advice of US-based oncologists to fill me in on what the latest treatments are.  Luckily my new onco here is very supportive with this.   I've forked out almost 40k since mid '07 on drugs & treatments which are "mainstream" in the US, and am going well - which would probably not have been the case had I not (a) been such a pest, and (b) been willing to re-mortgage my home.

No such thing as "Free Medicine," kiddies.  Not when it comes to the serious shit; not by a long shot.

36 Most major health care advances from medications to surgical techniques and tools, etc, come from the USA.  When people have "inoperable" tumors or other terrifying diseases, do they fly to France or Germany or the UK?  No, they come to the USA.

# 24 Manji:  Yep.  Am making arrangements at the moment to go to America for a stem cell transplant (from cord blood), hopefully in July.  Don't kill your system, America.  The rest of the world needs your 1st-rate health system as a fall-back, when our crappy little socialised systems fail us.

37 1 government run health care ? you mean like the kind that vets and seniors and people who work for our municipal, state, and federal governments all get ?

Posted by: John Ryan at June 01, 2008 06:45 PM (TcoRJ)

Okay, let me enlighten you a little bit about current government run health care in the United States today.

First, I am a 20 year active duty enlisted member of the Navy. I and my family have been attended by Navy run health care my entire career and the entire time my children have been alive. It's government funded and run. My youngest child was born with multiple brain related birth defects; Hydrocephalus, Chiari, Partial (50%) Agenisis of the Corpus Callosum (ACC). She has a shunt to drain the fluid from her brain that can't drain though her spinal column. She has been seen by multiple specialists and has undergone speech and physical therapy to basically train the functioning parts of ther brain to take over for what doesn't work. She's doing absolutely fantastic, you can't tell she has the same problem as the (real) Rain Man (ACC). This is to the absolute credit to her doctors (and her Mother - a saint!) at Portsmouth Naval Hospital (Bethesda ain't nothing, Portsmouth is where Navy medicine is happening). I couldn't afford the care she has received in her short life so far - It's all been overwhelmingly free. With her conditions, she virtually uninsurable. Even after I retire, We still can be covered by Tricare, for an extremely low annual fee, even with her pre-existing conditions. The Navy's been veddy veddy good to me. I'm lucky, in a sense. So, government run health care is awesome, right? Everyone gets what they need, nobody pays a thing. Sounds great, doesn't it?  

Back the truck up a little bit. Much of her care, and all of her therapy, came from the private sector - not from the Navy Hospital. Navy medicine is just not set up for everything she has. Now, they DO have Pediatric neurologists, but that's because the Navy family health plan, Tricare, pretty much requires it and they want to save money. Tricare is essentially the Navy HMO. Active duty members even have to schedule appointments through the Tricare master system. Tricare requires a primary physician, and they do their best to make it a military physician, but you can have a Primary Care Manager (PCM) outside. Now, families needs come after active duty members (as it should - they're the reason the services have doctors, after all), and at about the same priority as military retirees. If there is no available doctor, they may be let out to civilian medicine. Or they wait. Tricare will pay the civilian doctor for his services, but at reduced rates (kinda like Medicare!). Some won't accept Tricare - money, hassle, whatever reason. That limits the outside pool somewhat, but not enough to matter (at least in my case).

My point is, if you couldn't read between the lines of the last paragraph, that current government run health plans (or at least MINE) all are really run as employer plans (mine just happens to pay for nearly EVERYTHING), not as NHS-type care, with the 'safety valve' of reaching out to the private medical community to fill needs unavailable in system.

Now, the question is, what happens when that safety valve is no longer there? What happens when the care and treatment needed is not available or denied by the NHS-type system? What happens when there is nowhere to go?

38 To balance my last post, and this will be much shorter.

I have a friend who's in-laws, Italian, want to move here (have green cards and everything), can't stand it there anymore, but are worried about - you guessed it - health care. They're 65(ish), and are worried that they won't be seen or can't get insurance coverage.

So, Socialized Health Care is great if you don't want people to leave your country!

Ooh, I just had a thought. They're old enough for him to put them in as dependents - they can have Tricare! Awesome! Come on over!

39 Gabe is as right about government healthcare as he is wrong is about the soap opera named Battlestar Galactica.

(did you see how I gave him a compliment with a virtual backhanded slap in the face?  Heh.)

40 Well, I for one, will be glad to have government run health care ... As soon as our Veterans have the BEST health care in the world!!!!

They deserve it, and as soon as the government shows that they are capable of delivering it, THEN can be considered. After of course, we measure the cost, to verify that it's also the cheapest (most efficient)

NEVER HAPPEN, but since the govt is already in the health care providing business, lets use this yardstick.

41 Military medicine, VA, medicare, medicade, these are all arguments against socialized medicine.  Yes, military medicine is good in combat/emergency situations, but think of all the horror stories you know about from routine medical care.  I'll give you a couple.  I got perscribed something by the homeopathic physician that was covering  sick call that day.  Damn near put me into fibrillation.  I also got a positive back from a pap smear.  "Call the clinic right away and schedule an appointment" the results form said.  "Don't delay."  Only problem was that the clinic was tanking appointments for 45 days, and even then there was a six week wait after that.  "Positive on a pap smear?"  Tough luck.  Call us when we can take appointments. 

42 Until recently, after a couple of court decisions, Canada and North Korea were the only countries in the world in which it was illegal to buy private health care.  Don't get me wrong, Canada does a *great* job of providing preventive care, especially for children and youth.  However, they ration everything else pretty strictly. 

Take drugs.  Canada will not allow you to buy, in Canada, drugs that 'cost too much' -- i.e. that they can't get a big discount on because they're too new.  Also,  they don't buy expensive equipment, so they have only a very few MRIs and such.  Finally, the average wait list for 'optional treatment' (like for hip joint replacement for broken hips) runs 6+ months (my mom got hers in 48 hours).  Finally, certain treatments are defined as not having a sufficient benefit/cost ratio (especially for elderly patients where the procedure might work, but would be expensive and they might not live that much longer anyway).

I live close to Detroit, and if you cruise any Metro hospital parking lot it will be full of cars with Canadian plates.

And don't forget the woman from Vancouver who was flown to Montana (?  or Wyoming? one of those  low population states) to give birth to quadruplets or some such because the entire city of Vancouver (which has more residents than Montana, for sure) didn't have enough premie equipment for them.

Canada does a pretty good job of providing the kind of care generally available in the US 15-20 years ago (which was pretty good, all things considered).  However,  *we* could do a damn fine job of providing 1990-type care to  all 300,000,000 Americans at a low cost, *IF* the public would accept that.  They won't.  The scam for 'nationalized health care' is that *everyone* can have access, cheap or free, that is available to *anyone* which is (despite the John Ryans of the world) obviously impossible at any cost.

43 At that point, NHS started charging her for her care that had previously been provided free-of-charge she had already paid for with exorbitant taxes.

Fixed that for ya.

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