1 At least this one's just stupid and not directly malicious.  My charitable guess is that either he was told something as a child that he contorted into this, or his uncle was a Russki and his grasp of history is so poor that he didn't realize it.

2 Well, at least he didn't misspell potato, right?

3 The likeliest explanation is that his grandfather liberated Dachau or another camp. If that's the case, I'd hardly fault him for "one of his more egregious and easily demonstrated lies", just a sketchy grasp of the details of WWII.

4

Unless Obama's "uncle" was serving in the Red Army

That would certainly help explain the Obamessiah's Marxist leanings.

5 The problem is the depth of teh stupid here is frightening. 

Even a casual knowledge of geography would indicate the allies couldn't possibly have liberated a camp in Poland...since umm  the Red Army had to go through Poland on its way to Berlin.

This guy is dumber than a bag of hammers.

6 DISTRACTION!!!

7 I knew he had an affinity to Commies....

Sad part is, the US didn't begin to use the Birgade groupings until after Korea. Even a casual consult with one of his ex-service advisors (or, a little Goggling) would have averted this...

Even tho you despise their being, its a good thing to know about them, if you plan on becoming their CinC....

8 The problem is the depth of teh stupid here is frightening.

C'mon, "frightening"? I guess we'll never see the geography bee between Obama and Fred Thompson, where Fred would presumably crush him...

9 The likeliest explanation is that his grandfather liberated Dachau or another camp.

Of course -- but if that's the case, then he chose to name Auschwitz for impact knowing it was a lie.  Repeat after me -- "AUSCHWITZ IS IN POLAND.  THE RED ARMY CAPTURED POLAND.".  If Obama doesn't know that, then I don't want him anywhere near the Whitehouse because he's an idiot.

People think GWB embarrasses the USA?  Wait till this Obama rube gets rolling.

10

Poland, on most maps is usually placed to the east of Germany.

Maybe on the White Man's maps...

11 Maybe he meant his 'Uncle Joe.'

12 Sad part is, the US didn't begin to use the Birgade groupings until after Korea.

Suggestion to promote more informed discussion of this: could one of you high-paid bloggers take a break from padding your expense accounts and track down a transcript or video of what he actually said? Did he actually say "brigade" (or even "Auschwitz") or is that the reporter's paraphrase?

13 This post is clearly an example of political posturing, written by a Typical White Person™.

14 How does this help Michelle's kids?

15 His uncle joined up after the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.

16 He is beging to sound like AL GORE blabbering about thing he never ever did typical of a blabbering nit-wit liberal demacrook i suppose he will claim one of his anssestors invented the beach ball

17 I'm surprised the nitwit "journalist" didn't catch it. After all, while they are dismally ignorant of US history I would assume they were more knowledgeable about the history of their favorite empire (USSR).

18 Unless Obama's "uncle" was serving in the Red Army ...

You say that like it couldn't possibly be true. 

19 >>just a sketchy grasp of the details of WWII.

Which details formed the basis of foreign policy over the next 50 years and counting, including the "root causes" of Islamofascism. But not a big deal, I agree...

20 From Abovetopsecret:

Now, to begin, (as he seems to be referring to U.S. - not Kenyan - treatment of veterans, he makes mention of his maternal grandmother "working in the factories" during the Second World War (which is true)) and no "Kenyans" fought with the U.S. military in World War 2 - let alone the "liberation of Auschwitz" which was liberated by the 322nd Rifle Division of the Red Army), we'll assume that he's talking about his American (maternal) family:
Really, it's quite a good tear-jerker on why "more should be done to support the troops", until we hit this little snag:
Obama's mother (Ann Durham) was an only child.

Uncle Wright?

21

How does this help Michelle's kids punishments?

Fixed that for you.

22 The best part of these endless campaigns is the ongoing opportunity for these nitwits to say some really dumb shit.  This summer is going to be a cornucopia of crap.

23

Good lord!

If a family member was one of the soldiers that helped liberate a concentration camp in WWII, that's not something you easily forget or completely FUBAR.  That's something you wrap your head around for the rest of your life.   How the hell did Obama gaffe this up?!?!

24 It is true--His uncle was in the Red Army!

25 I really don't understand why everyone's making a big deal out of this. Were YOU in WW-II? Do you definitively know that our soldiers didn't secretly partner with the Soviets and sent in a crack team of commandos to free Auschwitz?

All these rants about "gaffes" is a distraction. Progressive economics requires no facts, just a suspension of belief marginally greater than what many financial market experts assume via efficient markets, completely rational consumers, etc. Progressive economics is based on the intent, desire and will of the people to follow the vision laid out by the leader. Mountains can be moved, rain summoned, diseases cured and alternative energies discovered if the people just listen and try hard enough to their government. It requires no rational plan, no foundation in history or facts. In fact, its liberation from history is what makes progressive ideology so capable of CHANGE. History is "what we done wrong" - white oppression, U.S. imperialism, dominance of European thinking, etc. By detaching from history, we are free to accomplish anything we desire. In this practice, historical data is irrelevant.

Economists can toss out their regressions and ignore their time-series data: Obama's promise is that none of that matters anymore. Once you understand that by listening to his promise and truly believing it, all we want is right around the corner. This is why history matters not to him, nor details on any proposal. If we are deserving and believe hard enough, it all will come to us. Change we can believe in!

26 Conclusive proof Obama's family's history of Communism???

27 So, basically, he used the Holocaust for cheap political pandering towards gaining the Jewish vote.

Nice.

28 The Russians were part of the Allied forces.  Just a minor detail that some people seem to have forgotten.

Yeah, that was Stalin sitting there with FDR and Churchill.

29 How the hell did Obama gaffe make this up?!?!

Yep, that's what it was missing.

30

Relax - it's his Nuance^tm you need to understand.

When the messiah says "My Uncle walked on the moon", he really means one of his relatives used to be able to do the moonwalk back when Michael was still black. Read between those lines. And Hope...

31 Of course it was his uncle. After it, it was the RED army.

32 Hey, Sefton....where's our wire cutters?

33

Somewhat OT from the NYT link:

 

Alexander A. Drabik, an American soldier who led a heroic charge across the Remagen Bridge in Germany in 1945 and gave the United States Army its first Allied bridgehead across the Rhine, died on Tuesday in an auto accident en route to a reunion of his Army unit. He was 82.

 

Heroic.  Just a scant 15 years ago and the Times had no problem properly labelling heroism.  Have they described any servicemen as heroic lately? 

34

Slightly OT, but this post reminded me of one of my favorite Patton stories. On crossing the Rhine, General Patton stopped on a pontoon bridge to make good on a promise to relieve himself into the river.

He then contacted Eisenhower's HQ and said (paraphrased), "Today I pissed in the Rhine - now send me some gas!" Patton believed he was being held back from taking Berlin on purpose because of political sensitivities with our Soviet allies. This was in March of '45, well after Auschwitz had been liberated by the Russkies.

Today the MSM would probably freak out about something like this (flushing a Koran down the toilet comes to mind), and he'd be busted back to Colonel Patton and assigned to a desk somewhere in the bowels of the Pentagon.

35 The Russians were part of the Allied forces.  Just a minor detail that some people seem to have forgotten.

Yeah, that was Stalin sitting there with FDR and Churchill.

And why is this pertinent to the discussion at hand?

36

Every day, B. Hussein says something so shockingly ignorant, blood shoots out of my eyes the moment I hear it.

On the bright side, it's the good kind of "blood shooting out my eyes".  It won't be the bad kind until it's President Obama... or nearly as bad, President McCain, doing the talking.

37 I believe he meant to say Buchenwald. Buchenwald - Auschwitz they do sound a like.  I would check to see if his uncle actually served in any of the below:

A detachment of troops belonging to the US 9th Armored Infantry Battalion, US 6th Armored Division, US Third Army arrived at Buchenwald on 13 April 1945 under the leadership of Captain Frederic Keffer. The squad entered the outer perimeter of the camp and reported its location to its higher ups, but did not investigate in great detail, moving on to complete other missions. On the same day, elements of the US 83rd Infantry Division overran Langenstein, one of a number of smaller camps comprising the Buchenwald complex.

Link

38 The fact that Obama gets away with little lies, such as this one, explains how he gets away with the big lie that is his life.

39 Buchenwald - Auschwitz they do sound a like.

In what alternate universe? 

40 Does anyone know what Senator Obama's GPA was while he was in college? I just remember Bush being a C student was a major campaign issue back in 2000 ('cause he's a big dumb doodle-head, ya know) and I wonder if The Great High Yellow Hope did any better.

41 GRC, As Hongqi pointed out, Barry Half-White's mother was an only child.

42 As another poster pointed out, Obama doesn't have any uncles, at least on the American side of the family. His grandfather was a WWII vet, though, and he may have helped liberate one of the camps within Germany.

But I'd like to see what the guy actually said before I draw any conclusions. It's entirely possible that the "reporter" who wrote that paraphrase of his comments was the one who couldn't distinguish Buchenwald from Auschwitz, or uncles from grandparents.

43 Does anyone know what Senator Obama's GPA was while he was in college? I just remember Bush being a C student was a major campaign issue back in 2000 ('cause he's a big dumb doodle-head, ya know) and I wonder if The Great High Yellow Hope did any better.

Yet, Bush's grades were better than Gore's. The grades back then pre-dated grade inflation which happened in the mid 60s. So, there is no way to compare then to the messiah's.

44 History books lie. The Messiah is infallible. I believe Obama.

45 Why, I remember when my dear old Dad stormed the Bastille.  The memory of it is seared...SEARED..... into me. 

If I'm not mistaken, he still has the hat.

46 So we are supposed to think Obama's OK because of some uncle but we aren't allowed to think badly of him due to his 20-year association with Wright?

His uncle doesn't make up for his wife, either.

47

Get ready for the Ace-O-Lanche.  Someone named "trdlgm" just linked the URL for this post in the CBS comments thread.

 

48 Maybe its just that Obama's mother had a lot of gentlemen callers who were introduced to young Barry as "uncles". Happens all the time.

49 Ooh, The Great Raid is coming on AMC next. I'll see if Barry's uncle is in it...

50

Bullshit.  Obama's mama had a brother that served in WW II?!

I had an uncle (and a Dad) who served in WWII as men in their late teens.  But I am 20 years older than Obama.  Figure it out... I can't.

51 Obama's mother, according to Link , was an only child. His father was Kenyan and they didn't fight in Europe in WWII. So, about whom was Obama speaking? Which uncle?

Michelle's kids might want to know - it might help them, you know.....

52 Not to defend Obama or anything but a friend of mine says that we might just be jumping the gun a little bit. While he can still be scolded for saying "Auschwitz" he might be able to save some face by claiming (and proving) that his uncle was involved in any of the other concentration camp liberations.

Dachau was liberated by the Americans after all.

53 Plus, Obama's mom's generation didn't fight in WWII - they simply weren't old enough.

So, who was it?

54

#45, you're such an imposter.

Why, I remember when my aunt summoned the Kamakaze, which saved Japan from Gehgis Kahn and his Mongol horde.  It's seared in my memory to crystal clarity;  I was 8 at the time.

55

Maybe this is just another of Senator O's "crazy uncles"?

56 The husband of his father's sister would count as an uncle...or...it could all just be fantasy designed to get him elected President of these 57 States.

57

Is the Democratic Party the only organization in the world where stupid is a considered a career enhancment?

If a Republican had said any of the goofy things teh Messiah has uttered he or she would be the designated punching bag on Oberman and Matthew's gong shows this evening.

I don't mind a politician being stupid - studies indicate that gross ignorance among liberal political activist is commonplace and healthy - but teh Messiah is breaking new ground in his effort to replace Jimmuh Carter as the worlds dumbest democrat.

58 Did he have any great uncles? I would forgive him for referring to his great uncle as his uncle, since I do the same. Again, Obama should explain the discrepancies and the reporters should be asking questions.

59

So the Dems have two lying buffoons as their candidates.

One thing is for sure, the press "aint no ways tired" of covering for them.

60

Dont chalk anything up to lies that can just as easily be explained by stupidity and/or ignorance

Besides, its not the facts that matter. Whats important is that we get a colored guy elected president.

61

Hey, i notice Hillary hasnt cried in, like, forever?

Whats up with that? Its almost like that episode was invented for political convenience

62 <i>Obama's mother, according to link , was an only child. His father was Kenyan and they didn't fight in Europe in WWII. So, about whom was Obama speaking? Which uncle? </I>


Not to defend O! but what does his being an only child have to do with the subject at hand?  And it is possible that one of his uncles to have served in WWII.  I'm the same age as Barry, have one parent who is Kenyan also.  Additionally, my American parent has no brothers. And I have two uncles who served in WWII.

Doesn't take a genius to figure out how.

63 Well I remember when I was 8 and we had to dodge the pteradactayls' sniper fire while running across the dirt path to where the native brontoserbians were being persecuted!

64 Bonus wrinkle - Obama's mom was an only child and his Dad was a Kenyan, so (dare we ask)  - what uncle?

One presumes it is an older relative - since his grandfather and grandmother were the right age for service in WWII, if either of them had a brother he probably served as well.  So the story is (hypothetically) about his mom's uncle.

Whatev.

65 Barry must have got this from "Frank".

66

Unless Obama's "uncle" was serving in the Red Army

Well it would explain a lot about Obama's platform...

67

The point about the uncle is a distraction from the distraction over the fact that the US didn't liberate Auschwitz.

68 On the Auschwitz thing, he may be thinking of Dachau. If he doesn't know that the Soviets were our allies in WWII, I wouldn't expect him to know that Auschwitz was in Poland. I'm thinking that its German designation threw him and his general ignorance compounded the error.(Auschwitz's Polish name is Oświęcim.)

69 Could have been a great uncle and he just misspoke regard to what concentration camp and just referred to the most recognized name. 

70

Gravitas doesn't come with affirmative action lifting your little boat up.

Gravitas! Such an important thing when discussing GWB, so important.

Now it doesn't matter at all that Barry is about as bright as a pair of loafers.

71

Actually, the Soviet Union was considered an ally in WWII.  So in that broader context, "the allies" liberated Auschwitz.  Still, pretty slimey reference.

72

So, basically, he used the Holocaust for cheap political pandering towards gaining the Jewish vote.

Well, yeah. After hearing some of his Memorial Day remarks, I think that the Obamessiah turns every event he attends into an occasion for political pandering. Most politicians realize that there are some occasions that are bigger than partisan bickering and where politics are simply inappropriate. However, Obama gives no indication that he has ever learned this.

^{_{He would have been in top form during Paul Wellstone's funeral.}}

73 I think the owner of this site is the one who needs the history lesson.  I didn't here Obama's speech first hand, but you state that he made an egregious mistake in stating that the allies liberated auschwitz, but that in fact, the red army did. 
Well, I've got some news for you; the russians were on our side back then. 
They were PART OF THE ALLIES!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_forces

74

Finally, a legitimate use for AUDACITY OF HOPE, hope that Obama will fail miserably on his own account.

"On January 27, 1945, the Soviet army entered Auschwitz and liberated more than 7,000 remaining prisoners, who were mostly ill and dying." www.ushmm.org

Berry's going to cry cherry pickin' in self defense. But there's NO EXCUSE for a POTUS to not know what he's talking about time and time again! Talk about wholecloth! That's all Berry has to wear.

But you see, that the media is so ignorant as to accept total fabricated sh*t for historical record leaves us all at hell's gate. Berry depends on that ignorance, always qualifying his platform by "what the general public knows" to be the case.

75 and I already know that I need spelling and grammary/typo lessons.  So please don't bother pointing it out.  I  type too fast.

76 The point about the uncle is a distraction from the distraction over the fact that the US didn't liberate Auschwitz.

Actually the point about the uncle is an example of how swarming onto a subject without thinking it through--people have great-uncles, sheesh--makes people appear as ignorant as Obama.

77

Obama said his relative served under Patton and Patton did not liberate Dachau:

A tablet at the camp commemorates the liberation of Dachau by the 42nd Infantry Division of the U.S. Seventh Army on 29 April 1945. Other claim that the first forces to enter the main camp were a battalion of the 157th Infantry Regiment of the 45th Infantry Division commanded by Felix L. Sparks. There is an on-going disagreement as to which division, the 42nd or the 45th, actually liberated Dachau because they seem to have approached by different routes and by the American Army's definition, anyone arriving at such a camp within 48 hours was a liberator.^[13] General Patton visited the Buchenwald camp after it was liberated, but not Dachau. Link

78

Hillary and Barack are amatures.  I recall swimming around in the brine and primordial ooze of the Precambrian. 

That being said, eh, how was I supposed to know Mary Jo could not, eh, breath underwater?

79

I think this is a fib comparable to Bill Clinton "remembering" all the church burnings in Arkansas during his youth when the reality is that there weren't any. Both are politicians' attempts to associate themselves with significant historical events in order to look impressive to voters.

Pandering. It's what for dinner.

80 I believe it.

My uncle, Retired (Nisht Goy), blew Obama's uncle in a limo parked outside Auschwitz.

81 Actually he said that his grandfather heard the stories of the soldiers who liberated Auschwitz, but of course we can't expect righties to be concerned about facts

82 Well, I'm a hair younger than the Messiah, and my father got into the War in the spring of '45- as he puts it, the Germans saw him coming and surrendered.

But I can totally see him making this error. Though perhaps he's waxing nostalgic about Poland becoming the 57th state.

83 Obama said his relative served under Patton and Patton did not liberate Dachau:

He said that his grandfather served under Patton. Then, several lines down there's this:

Obama also spoke about his uncle, who was part of the American brigade that helped to liberate Auschwitz. He said the family legend is that, upon returning from war, his uncle spent six months in an attic.

A gaffe indeed but let's make sure we know what was said.

84 Well, I've got some news for you; the russians were on our side back then. 
They were PART OF THE ALLIES!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_forcesPosted by: obese at May 27, 2008 11:17 AM (Cg5WI)

Okay, obese, you want to give credit to Obama's uncle for the liberation of  Auschwitz/Birkenau, than he also has to take credit for the rapes and murders of Jewish inmates by their liberators. 

85 On crossing the Rhine, General Patton stopped on a pontoon bridge to make good on a promise to relieve himself into the river.

Should have posted a link to the photo.

86 On the Auschwitz thing, he may be thinking of Dachau.

He said that his grandfather served under Patton.

I don't care who it was. No American liberated Auschwitz and Patton didn't liberate Dachau.

87 On crossing the Rhine, General Patton Obama's Uncle stopped on a pontoon bridge to make good on a promise to relieve himself into the river.

Get your history straight!

88

Actually he said that his grandfather heard the stories of the soldiers who liberated Auschwitz, but of course we can't expect righties to be concerned about facts

Uh, no.  That's not at all what he said.  Making you, of course, the one unconcerned about facts.

89

Maybe it's just that I went to a private school but, according to my history books, the USSR (RED ARMY) WAS ONE OF THE ALLIES DURING WWII.

Before you start flogging your Junior High School textbooks keep in mind that Obama has a BETTER EDUCATION THAN YOU DO.

Soviet Russia did not become an adversary until *after* WWII ended.

READ A BOOK, preferrably a HISTORY BOOK.

90 @ axt113: Okay, so where did he hear "the stories of the soldiers who liberated Auschwitz"? Cuz you know, they were Red Army soldiers. What are the odds that, of those few thousand soldiers, some made it to Chicago and met Grandpa?

91

I assume he meant a great-uncle.  It wouldn't be beyond comprehension for him to refer to one of his grandparents' brothers as "Uncle" since his grandparents were in effect acting as his "parents."

Also, it was probably Buchenwald.  He may have misremembered the story from when he was a kid, and just inserted the most familar concentration camp name into his anecdote.  The point is that it is extremely sloppy of him and his staff to not double-check the names of the places, since it's not just family anecdote, it's actual history. 

92

READ A BOOK, preferrably a HISTORY BOOK.

I've read more than you, I'm guessing, but haven't been able to find one yet that says the Americans liberated Auschwitz.

Maybe it's because I haven't gotten my hands on any of those fancy private school history books.

93 Maybe it's just that I went to a private school but, according to my history books, the USSR (RED ARMY) WAS ONE OF THE ALLIES DURING WWII.

Hey, dumbass! He said that::  his uncle, who was part of the American brigade that helped to liberate Auschwitz... Not that the US was one of the Allies and that the Allies liberated Auschwitz.  You might as well said the Red Army landed at Omaha and  Obama's  uncle  was at Stalingrad.

Obviosuly, the extra money your folks spent on private school was a wast.

94 Just because the USSR was an ally in WWII doesn't mean that A) Obama is telling anything like the truth or B) that having an uncle who served in their army is something to be proud of.

95 I've read more than you, I'm guessing, but haven't been able to find one yet that says the Americans liberated Auschwitz.

To say that they did would be offensive to the russians as would saying the russians were responsible for establishing the beach head at Normandy. In fact, if he was potus and made such a gaffe, the russians would be pissed off and rightfully so.

Let's call it what it is: Trying to pander to the Jewish vote.

96

You embarrass our ENTIRE COUNTRY with your putrid rants.

THE USSR WAS OUR ALLY DURING WWII.  When Obama says "The Allies liberated Auschwitz Birkenau" he is absolutely correct because the USSR was a member of the allies.

Go watch Patton with George C Scott if you don't know how to read.  It wasn't an easy alliance but the USSR lost several times more civilians and soldiers fighting the Nazis in WWII than the US did.

Your ignorance is offensive to the entire planet, you are propagating hatred by perpetuating this putrid crap.  Your Junior High history teacher lied.

97 READ A BOOK, preferrably [sic] a HISTORY BOOK.

Or maybe dictionary. Perhaps your parents can get a refund on your private education.

98 THE USSR WAS OUR ALLY DURING WWII.  When Obama says "The Allies liberated Auschwitz Birkenau" he is absolutely correct because the USSR was a member of the allies

He said his uncle was part of the American Brigade that liberated Auschwitz. No American Brigade liberated Auschwitz. Boy, you're dense.

 

99

Read-a-book should be renamed, "Fail-Troll".

Obama! says "A".

Ace says "A" can't be true.

Read-a-book nitwit says, "You're an idiot "B" really happened."

100

A tablet at the camp commemorates the liberation of Dachau by the 42nd Infantry Division of the U.S. Seventh Army on 29 April 1945.

There is also a claim made by the 6th Armored Division.

101 Well, Purple Helmet Guy says "A" can't be true.

102 Your ignorance is offensive to the entire planet, you are propagating hatred by perpetuating this putrid crap.  Your Junior High history teacher lied.

Hysterical overstatement much?

I suggest you re-read the article in question.  Obama wasn't speaking of the allies, he was talking about a specific unit his uncle fought with.  May I humbly suggest you know what you're talking about before accusing others of ignorance?

103 Is someone compiling these gaffes? The list must be getting somewhat long. Perhaps Ace could have "gaffe updates?" 

104 28 The Russians were part of the Allied forces.  Just a minor detail that some people seem to have forgotten.

Yeah, that was Stalin sitting there with FDR and Churchill.

Posted by: Jaynie59 at May 27, 2008 10:12 AM (YjQWV)

 

Jaynie, you ignorant slut.

105

I'm about a decade younger than Obama and my aunt married a ww2 army vet. He was Welsh, served with the British. [Being Welsh he'd have told you that the Welsh (and Cornish) were the actual Brits left on the island and that we're "Saxon" foreigners .] ww2 vet uncles are possible. There were Confederate widows who survived well into the 20th.

He told me his part of the army liberated one of the camps although I don't recall which one. I've heard of Dachau and Buchenwald; so if I'd been asked off the cuff I might have dropped one of those names. But Google (and Spiegelman's Maus) inform me it was Americans at Dachau.

Anyway.

Obama's grandfather Stanley Dunham was the second of two children. His older brother Ralph Junior was born in 1917 a year before. Maybe Ralph Dunham Jr served. (His grandmother Ruth nee Armour only had a sister.) I couldn't find out if Obama's grandmother Madelyn Payne daughter of Rolla Payne had brothers.

106 Michelle's uncle walked from Southampton to Caens, getting his boots damp, but keeping his feet dry, and shaved Hitler's moustache just prior to D-Day. I guess that gets left out of the white version of history.

107 He still has that hat.

108 Loose shit: Ruth nee Armour was a great-grandmother, Stanley Dunham's mom. Never mind the Armour family. Rolla Payne is the person to look for any other ww2 age sons.

109 Barry was recently asked about his service in The 'Nam.

"I was with the Green Berets, Special Unit Battalions...Commando Airborne Tactics...Specialist Tactics Unit Battalion. Yeah, it was real hush hush. I was Agent Orange, Special Agent Orange, that was me."

110

Your Junior High history teacher lied.

Wow!  Howard Zinn's leaving comments at Ace's now.

111 Uh, I missed it.  In which of our seven extra States was he standing when he came up with this crap?

112

Maybe it's just that I went to a private school but, according to my history books, the USSR (RED ARMY) WAS ONE OF THE ALLIES DURING WWII.

Before you start flogging your Junior High School textbooks keep in mind that Obama has a BETTER EDUCATION THAN YOU DO.

He may have gone to a "better" school, but it's clear he didn't get a better education. 

Unless those super-secret private-school books include the history of the 57 US states.

113 Can the people who keep *helpfully* informing us that the Soviets were our allies during WWII (duh?!) please read the thread before posting? My gosh, that's not even what this post is about! I don't want to speak for Purple Avenger, but he no doubt misspoke, and meant to say "Americans" instead of "allies". Trust me, we may be morons, here, but we know our WWII history well enough not to make such a ridiculous error, and if P.A. knew enough to have caught Obama's (gaffe or lie?), he certainly knows basic common knowledge like that.

From the article:

Obama also spoke about his uncle, who was part of the American brigade that helped to liberate Auschwitz. He said the family legend is that, upon returning from war, his uncle spent six months in an attic.

I thought Reverend Wright was his crazy uncle in the attic. Maybe it's him?

Also, I may have to update my Exaggerations, Lies, Distortions, and Flip-flops of  Barack Obama post.

Are we leaning towards a gaffe, here or outright lie?

Michelle Malkin has the gaffe list.

114

#89 - Read #35.  Try learning reading comprehension. 

Nobody is disputing whether or not the Soviets were our allies during WWII.  We are disputing Obama's statement about his uncle "who was part of the American brigade that helped to liberate Auschwitz" because:

1 - The Americans did not liberate Auschwitz

2 - His father was Kenyan, and they did not send troops to Europe.

3 - His AMERICAN mom was an only child: no brothers, no sisters, no brothers-in-law, so no AMERICAN uncles.

4 - The US Army did not use brigades until after WWII.

Our options are he was referring to a great uncle, he was lying, or he's dumber than a sack of retards.

115

Butch,

Neither 1 nor 2 rule out 3.

 

116 Ugh.  To clarify - neither the "great uncle" nor "lying" explanations rule out that he's dumber than a sack of retards.

117 Dunham, Ralph E. Inducted 28 May 1942, Army 37203549 Registered, order # 1180 Mound City, Linn Co. (Board # 1) Serial # also assigned to Lawrence W. Solomon 

He's from Kansas. Could be this guy.

118 To say the Kenyans didn't fight in WWII is misleading.  Kenya was part of the British Empire. I am pretty sue they would have had troops in the fight. 

119
From the cbs comments:   Next [Obama] will be telling us that his uncle was in the attic helping Anne Frank write her diary!

120

It IS that guy. Barack's uncle Ralph is indeed Ralph E. So we know Obama was telling the truth. "Auschwitz" was a slip of the tongue.

Please do not embarrass us in front of the world, commenters ...

121 Maybe this is why Obama and Axlerod can compare campaigning to the Bataan Death March.   He had an uncle who survived the march.

122 @ davod: Kenyans did fight in World War II.  They did not fight in North-West Europe. 

123 Well, ancestry.com has been kind enough to make their military records searchable for free until May 31.  Perhaps someone with a little more free time and knowledge of Obama's family tree would care to do some digging.

124 ah, looks like someone has already done the digging.

125

It IS that guy. Barack's uncle Ralph is indeed Ralph E. So we know Obama was telling the truth. "Auschwitz" was a slip of the tongue.

Auschwitz, a slip of the tongue?  I think not.  Why not Treblinka, Dachau, Buchenwald, etc.?  Pandering by gilding the lily.

126 This may be the first amusing Walter Mitty-esque moment of the Obama campaign, but for a guy with a tissue-thin resume, it surely won't be the last.

127   My uncle was at Ramagen bridge 1945, Obama does not know " history"-just
      dreams and hopes.        Thanks for the correction . deepac

128 It IS that guy. Barack's uncle Ralph is indeed Ralph E. So we know Obama was telling the truth. "Auschwitz" was a slip of the tongue


Great Uncle, not Uncle.  Not Auschwitz.   A slip of the tongue or more evidence he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about?

129

"Auschwitz" was a slip of the tongue. Like the Battan Death March comment. I use to think the Gorebots were dense, but the Obamites take the cake.

The only good thing about Obamites is that their undying devotion to the Messiah will result in his undoing. Tha drip, drip, drip of bullshit will grow until one day, even the Obamites in the media will be so swamped by the sewage that they will be unable to keep the truth from the voters.

I hope the break occurs before the election.

130 I agree with #114

131 It is Obama who embarrassed himself. I would have more sympathy if the left didn't jump on every misstatement by those who don't agree with him. And, if it was a slip, what did he mean to say? I still want to know what relative, what unit, and what camp, because frankly he has been caught pandering before.

132 oops - meant to say #115....

133 It IS that guy. Barack's uncle Ralph is indeed Ralph E. So we know Obama was telling the truth. "Auschwitz" was a slip of the tongue

Just how do you know, "It IS that guy?"

134 American troops liberated five concentration camp in April/early May, 1945:

Buchenwald, Dachau, Dora Mittlebau, Flossenburg, and Mauthausen.

No Auschwitz on that list.

135 Meh.
He meant his uncle had a moving company that moved out Japanese internees out of camps in Hawaii.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment#Hawaii

136

Good Lord. Who cares about greatuncle versus uncle. I called my greatuncle "uncle" because my dad called him "uncle". Now imagine that in a family with one parent with no siblings, raised by the mother's parents. If Obama had said "greatuncle" or "mother's uncle" you'd be calling him lawyerly and effete.

For some reason I'm now thinking of the Terrence & Philip song in South Park. "You don't eat or sleep or mow the lawn, you just..."

137 We will CHANGE history, and HOPE no one has the AUDACITY to notice.

138

If Obama had said "greatuncle" or "mother's uncle" you'd be calling him lawyerly and effete.

Probably not.  But I would call changing the subject from Obama confusing Poland and Germany lawyerly and effete.

139 The account from the Washington Post refers to an American force in Auschwitz, the CBS report refers to a liberation.  Perhaps those crack journalists at CBS got it wrong again. As there are no direct quotes on this matter in either article we may have a journalistic boo-boo.

140 Who cares about greatuncle versus uncle.

No one does --  neither liberated Auschwitz.  But since he said uncle and people  knew he had no uncle in the US Army, don't blame them for challenging his statement.

141 David Ross- people care about the Auschwitz.

142 THE USSR WAS OUR ALLY DURING WWII. When Obama says "The Allies liberated Auschwitz Birkenau" he is absolutely correct because the USSR was a member of the allies.

Yes, except that he didn't say that. Que the tape:

...Obama also spoke about his uncle, who was part of the American brigade that helped to liberate Auschwitz...

Ok, since you're smarter than me, please name the American brigrades that where attached to the Soviet Army and fought on the Eastern Front.

143 That man is lawerly and effete!

144 Countdown to CBS "correction" in 3...2...1

145 Obama's uncle is a metaphor for something so special, so wonderful.

Obama is the invisible hand that has saved us from countless horrors in the history of America: the horrible scourge of Nazism, the long cold war, polio,  season 5 of Saved By the Bell.

Believe or die.

146 Has anyone tracked down the audio/video for this?  For all we know, CBS made a mistake on the nationality or the death camp.

Not that I think Obama wouldn't be...I'd love to say something other than stupid, but I can't think of another word, so...stupid enough to say something like this, but I could also see CBS making a huge gaffe on this.

147

Another gaffe was caught over at Protein Wisdom. This one, not fatal, but pretty funny nonetheless.

148 Good Lord. Who cares about greatuncle versus uncle. I called my greatuncle "uncle" because my dad called him "uncle". Now imagine that in a family with one parent with no siblings, raised by the mother's parents. If Obama had said "greatuncle" or "mother's uncle" you'd be calling him lawyerly and effete.

Ah yes. Now that the facts have been determined and their guy found to be either ignorant or untruthful, the Left goes to their favorite fallback: it doesn't really matter, it's a distraction, let's not get bogged down in minutiae, etc.

The problem is while this is a small detail it shows Obama's willingness to copy/paste relatives into history. I realize that this is a common failing among politicians (well, Dems anyway. The Lioness of Tuzla springs to mind). Details are important. If you can't get the small stuff right, how do you expect to get the big stuff right.

149 Not only did his "uncle" liberate Auschwitz, but there's an entire family legend constructed around it...

He said the family legend is that, upon returning from war, his uncle spent six months in an attic. “Now obviously, something had really affected him deeply, but at that time there just weren’t the kinds of facilities to help somebody work through that kind of pain,â€‌ Obama said. “That’s why this idea of making sure that every single veteran, when they are discharged, are screened for post-traumatic stress disorder and given the mental health services that they need – that’s why it’s so important.â€‌

Hey, that' s like a two-for-one pander there. 

Obama's mythical uncle liberates Auschwitz = pander to Jews

Obama's mythical uncle contracts PTSD = pander to war haters.

150

Don't you remember when he called his grandmother "babushka" before he threw her under the bus? 

151 I don't care who it was. No American liberated Auschwitz and Patton didn't liberate Dachau.

Yes you do care.  Because when you want to discredit someone, you need to know what you're talking about.

152 ba...BUSH...ka

It is all coming together now...

153 Just because the USSR was an ally in WWII doesn't mean that A) Obama is telling anything like the truth or B) that having an uncle who served in their army is something to be proud of.

All true.  It's a good thing that no one claimed otherwise.

154

The USSR was only a marginal ally in WWII.  One of the concerns through out the WWII was how to control the spread of communism once germany was defeated.  Efforts were made to keep russia out of the pacific war to reduce soviet influence in post war japan.  There is far more to the history of WWII  that what is taught in schools today. 

155

I agree with Alice's post #146. The Washington Post story from yesterday said that Obama was "Referring to an uncle who had been one of the first U.S. troops into Auschwitz," a very different and totally plausible concept. It looks like CBS News paraphrased that indirect quote in a misleading fashion.

 

Obama commits plenty of legit gaffes himself - but this one might be CBS's gaffe.

156 What bothers me about this statement is not that Obama calls his great-uncle "uncle" (I do that myself), or that he doesn't personally know that Uncle Ralph could not have liberated Auschwitz, since the Russians did that (although it definitely shows that, in his many world travels, he's never visited Auschwitz, or probably any other concentration camp memorial), but rather:

1) he doesn't think facts important enough to have a staff member check his old family stories before sharing them

and, more importantly

2) the point of his telling the story was not that his uncle was a hero, but rather a victim, spending several months holed up in an attic, upon his return from the war.

157

Rush is right now discussing Obama's comments yesterday to a crowd in Las Cruces, NM, where he hails Americans war heroes on Memorial Day, many of whom he could see from the podium.

I might add that Memorial Day commemorates the war dead. 

Ergo, Obama truly is the messiah! 

158

No, see, his Uncle was a ruskie. He was like the soviet version of Mr. T from the A-Team, except he was afraid of rail cars and not planes. Anyway, after he rescued all the Jews from Auschwitz then he made them all some drinks with vodka, khalua and coke, as he kicked Himmler in the balls.  He was made a national hero. They named the drink, the Black Russian, after him.

 

159 Yes you do care.

Fuck off. Once again, the Americans did not liberated Auschwitz and Patton did not liberate Dachau.

160 Found it!  Here's the video of Obama speaking to vets.

161 Look people, is this so-o-o-o-o hard to understand?

My uncle was stationed on the Titanic when the Germans attacked Pearl Harbor. Since the Germans sank the Titanic, he was transferred to fight under Montgomery in his fire raid on Tokyo.

The Japanese downed his plane so he was transferred to Patton's command when he freed the prisoners of Auschwitz.

Yeesh, look it up people it is simple American history after all!

162 But you see, none of zis matters.  Nein! Er, I mean, no, none.  This conzentrashuun camp never happened.  Nein - no, no.  Ask Ron Vibbentrop, he'll tell you.

163

The USSR was not just a marginal ally during WWII.

"Referring to an uncle who had been one of the first U.S. troops into Auschwitz," Obamite to the rescue.

I do not have anything readilly to hand, but it was my understanding that the Western Allies never moved very far into the East after the war ended. Why would they end  up in Auschwitz.

 

 

 

164 Dang! here's the video!

165 ...Obama also spoke about his uncle, who was part of the American brigade that helped to liberate Auschwitz...

Forget it. He's rolling.

166 Damn....I changed computers and lost my sock puppet. Now everybody's gonna hate me.

But here's what a commenter said at the CBS site:

CBS NEWS NEEDS TO ISSUE A RETRACTION.

Obama never mentioned Auschwitz. The reporter messed up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR8Y
aR3JEkE

But that youtube link doesn't lead me to Obama, and I haven't been able to find it yet.

Still... something tells me, this may all be a mistake on CBS's part.

Posted by gabesmall at 12:45 PM : May 27, 2008

167 Someone's already worked out Obama's ancestry here. Yes, his uncle is Ralph E. on the 1930 census, so that's probably him on the Kansas WWII Vets list, but who knows in what Division he served?

On the subject of Obama's version of history, though, here's a direct quote from Purple Avenger's link:

“My grandfather marched in Patton’s army, but I cannot know what it is to walk into battle like so many of you,” he told a small group of veterans here....

"“We should make sure that today’s veterans get the same benefit that my grandfather got when he came back from World War II,” Obama said. “It was a good investment not only for him, but it was a good investment for the country, built our middle class."

From his "Dreams" memoir:

"Gramps returned from the war never having seen real combat, and the family moved to California, where he enrolled at Berkeley under the GI bill. But the classroom couldn't contain his ambitions, his restlessness, and so the family moved again..."

I think this is called "embellishment." His grandfather (whom we of course honor for his service), didn't know what it was like to walk into battle either -- and enrolling, then dropping out of Berkeley was somehow a "good investment" under the GI Bill?

There's no direct quote about the Auschwitz episode, but, yeah, I'd question that  it was also "embellished." After all, in Obamaworld, who remembers history that long ago? Who even learns history anymore? Like his book editor says, it's that "sort of larger truth" that important, right? /sarc

168 NOT NICE...Deb! You, you, you... Rick Roll'd me?!? Sigh...

169 "Bullshit. Obama's mama had a brother that served in WW II?!

I had an uncle (and a Dad) who served in WWII as men in their late teens. But I am 20 years older than Obama. Figure it out... I can't."

Not to defend Obama but, my father served in WWII (pacific theater - btw he was 30 in 1941, so he was considered old for duty and still served) and my mother was working at Fort Dix on the eve of the D-day invasion and I am two weeks younger than Obama. How did that happen? My father was 50 when I was born and my mother was 38. That's how something like that can happen. That being said, his story is full of holes and if my Uncle had been part of the liberation of one of the camps, I would certainly know which one.

Also to Jaynie, the Soviets were our allies of a sort, but by that time in the war both sides were trying to race to Berlin to beat the other side. Churchill, Patton and Montgomery were making the case to beat them but Eisenhower and (I think FDR was dead by then) Truman wanted to hold off. It was the biggest mistake of the war.

170

In this 9:20 long video on youtube Obama mentions his grandparents, but not his (great-)uncle - unless I missed it due to almost falling asleep. He's a real droner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR8YaR3JEkE

But I'm assuming the 'Auschwitz' moment was during reporter Q&A's or something. I really doubt the Washington Post just made it all up. But lacking the exact quote, it's impossible to tell whether the Post version of Obama's statement or the CBS version is more accurate.

 

 

171
Here's a good link to the Obamamamamaa flub.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV1sxq8mqvA

172

Ann NY,

Obama's mom was an only child

173

Auschwitz, a slip of the tongue?  I think not.  Why not Treblinka, Dachau, Buchenwald, etc.?  Pandering by gilding the lily.

Yeah, because Auschwitz was the greatest concentration camp EVAR!

And to those of you who voted for George Waterhead Bush, twice--now you tell us that gaffes are an important distinguishing characteristic for presidential candidates.  The world thanks you.

I think Obama should follow something similar to McCain's particular tack of not using the words, Sunni or Shiia, until the election is over.

 

174 I have a sneaking suspicion that what he might actually mean, and this is just more skyballing, is that he had some relative who helped with the aftermath of one of the camps, and reckons that counts as "liberation", not knowing of the American Army's 48 hour rule. Much, much more needs to be cleared up about this, if there is no satisfactory explanation for such a comment it's the type of gaffe that should invalidate someone from the Presidency. In the opinion of someone who isn't American, anyway.

Everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes that could lead to potential diplomatic incidents should not be the remit of the POTUS. Before I'm accused of over-reacting, such a comment could be taken as a smear on the Russians, or perhaps worse an excusing by omission of what the Red Army did in Poland, cynical sucking-up to the Jews, Americans trying to claim credit for World War 2 actions they had no, or little, part in (a sore point for some Europeans, U-571 as an example of how America is globally considered to value the contributions of anyone else who fought) and that's just from one comment. The man has made many, and will only have greater opportunity to as President.

And keep in mind, the world is populated by people who are either fanatically touchy or just cynical and opportunistic, and who don't like America. Russia is being merrily led back down the cold war path, China views anyone in it's way as a threat, and the main enemy right now is the USA, either of them will latch on to a potential opportunity to gain moral justification for a cynical manoeuvre. Apologising after the fact and correcting yourself won't matter jack if your words are irrelevant except as a vessel for pre-planned activities that have now gained a veneer of justification. Additionally, Islamic Fundamentalists don't care what you mean, they listen to what is said, interpret their own meaning and then try to kill you. "Mistake" is not a recognised concept as far as I can tell, not even when a bomb-vest explodes sooner than it should...

As an example, I recently heard of an incident involving a Japanese manga (Graphic novel) where some bad guy was ordering the death of the hero, or some such, I've never read it. But for the localisation, not the original, the translation team decided to put in some scanned Arabic on the pages of the book the bad guy is reading. None of them are literate in Arabic, so they just choose some at random. Yeah, they picked the Koran by accident... They are now considered enemies of Islam for implying that all Muslims are terrorists, the age-old complaint. Because the bad guy reading the Koran means all Muslims are terrorists...

On the flip side, you can bet that little Islamic iconography will ever appear in any Japanese works ever again.

175 And to those of you who voted for George Waterhead Bush, twice--now you tell us that gaffes are an important distinguishing characteristic for presidential candidates.  The world thanks you.

After eight years of the media and the left pouncing on Bush's words, are you now trying to tell us they're not?

176 That u-tube video is pretty conclusive evidence he said what was reported.

177

Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies.

 

178 Ah, in the posts I didn't see as I was typing mine, there have been updates that render my skyballing incorrect and irrelevant. Good good.

179

"I had a uncle who was one of the, ah--who was part of the first American troops to go into Auschwitz, and liberate the concentration camps."

A little indeterminate, but basically the video vindicates Obama. There's a huge difference between the CBS News account which definitely has Obama claiming that his uncle helped liberate that camp in particular vs. what Obama actually said. The qualifier in 'part of the first American troops' makes a huge difference. And if Uncle Ralph was indeed with Americans liberating other camps, then it's hard to quarrel with Obama's statement.

180 Obama never claimed his uncle liberated auschuwitz, if you read the actual quote:

In World War Two we didn't have the concept of post traumatic stress syndrome. People had to basically handle it on their own," he said. Referring to an uncle who had been one of the first U.S. troops into Auschwitz, the concentration camp, Obama said: "The story in the family is he came home and just went up in the attic."\

181

I just want to point out that, from the video, what Obama said was that his uncle was one of the first U.S. troops to go into Auschwitz and help liberate the concentration camps. It's entirely possible that this is true if he is talking about separate instances in his uncle's (clearly, must have been a great-uncle) military experience.  For example, my grandfather was one of the first U.S. troops to go into Auschwitz, and later helped liberate Buchenwald.

182 Hmm, seems I might not have been that far off after all...

183 Obama says his grandfather "marched with Patton" through "the mud of France" -- which means he was an infantryman. He also says his grandfather "returned from the war never having seen real combat" (Obama, Dreams from My Father, p. 15) It doesn't add up. Something is wrong with this story. You don't serve with Patton as a foot soldier in France and never see combat. Wonder what the true story is.

184

Yeah, because Auschwitz was the greatest concentration camp EVAR!

Just the most well-known, turd.  That was the point which you so studiously tried to avoid.  If it was really a family story that meant something to him, he wouldn't have simply gone with the only freakin' concentration camp he's ever heard of.

But he's a Dem, and he defaults to "make shit up" mode.

185 There's a huge difference between the CBS News account which definitely has Obama claiming that his uncle helped liberate that camp in particular vs. what Obama actually said.

Except Patrick, et al. The Washington Post has the same story....


"In World War Two we didn't have the concept of post traumatic stress syndrome. People had to basically handle it on their own," he said. Referring to an uncle who had been one of the first U.S. troops into Auschwitz, the concentration camp, Obama said: "The story in the family is he came home and just went up in the attic."

186 Quite.

187 You don't serve with Patton as a foot soldier in France and never see combat. Wonder what the true story is.

All his military related stories seem to be missing a little something...wonder what?

188

"Except Patrick, et al. The Washington Post has the same story...."

I know, Drew. But that's where I started, with the Post story that only claimed his uncle had been with the first American troops into Auschwitz, which is what the video confirms. He didn't say, as CBS News misrepresented him as saying, that Uncle Ralph or any other Americans had been the liberators of Auschwitz.

189 They called it "battle fatigue" Drew.  Renamed from "shell-shocked, WWI

190

For example, my grandfather was one of the first U.S. troops to go into Auschwitz, and later helped liberate Buchenwald.

When, before Buchenwald's liberation on the western front on April 10th, was your grandfather in Auschwitz, which was liberated on the eastern front in late January?

191

"Auschwitz" was a slip of the tongue. Like the Battan Death March comment.

What was the Battan Death March comment???

192 OK now that, that's not a slip up. That's a straight up lie.

193 "For those of you who are just weary of the primary, and feeling kind of ground down or that it's like a Bataan death march, I just want everybody to know that the future is bright," Sen. Barack Obama

Probably this one.

194 When, before Buchenwald's liberation on the western front on April 10th, was your grandfather in Auschwitz, which was liberated on the eastern front in late January?

That's some good pwnage.
Can we get some better trolls today, please?

195 Patrick,

What version of the video are you talking about? The only one I've seen is at Hot Air and you can't hear it because of the wind.

196 Maybe Obama is suffering from PTSD from the primary wars.  Following his own advice to veterans, we should ask that he be brought in and screened by mental health professionals immediately.

197

Drew, #171 here posted a link with good audio:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV1sxq8mqvA

I'm not saying it's the most coherent statement anyone ever made about some American troops liberating certain other camps and some American troops eventually arriving at an already-liberated Auschiwz - just that the MSM will never have to call Obama on this one, as they & he can always claim he was talking about two different though related things in one sentence.

198 Patrick,

At 14 seconds into that video he clearly says "and liberate the concentration camps."

199

Your great uncle is not your father's or mother's brother. Just as your grandfather is not your father. You can call him that but it doesn't make it so.

But then again, barry was reared by his grandparents, right?

So back to the actual story.

Obama screwed up. He's either a liar or an idiot. Or both.

My bets on both.

The only other explanation is that the reporter screwed up the story.

200 Hmmmm.

What I find curious:

1. Obama has a *uncle*?  Is he talking about a Great-Uncle, i.e. brother of his "white racist" grandmother?  Because I thought his mother was an only child.

2. When did American troops enter Auschwitz?  Being that it's in Poland and completely under the control of the Red Army I wouldn't think they'd be interested in turning it into a tourist spot.

And just how could visiting Auschwitz after the war inflict PTSD??

Money quote:

""In World War Two we didn't have the concept of post traumatic stress syndrome. People had to basically handle it on their own," he said. Referring to an uncle who had been one of the first U.S. troops into Auschwitz, the concentration camp, Obama said: "The story in the family is he came home and just went up in the attic.""

...

This is a weird thing no matter how you look at it.

201 Patrick,

Thanks that's much better. Here's what he said,

"I had a uncle who was one of the, who was part of the first American troops to go into Auschwitz and liberated the concentration camps."

First, what American troops went into Auschwitz? As has been pointed out Auschwitz was hundreds of miles away from the US lines even after the war. Was his 'uncle' part of some VIP trip? If so, it would have been months after the camp was liberated in January of '45.

Now maybe Obama's 'uncle' was at some other camp but that gets to the original point, not only did Obama fuck up a family story, he has no basic knowledge of US history.

202

Yes, Hongqi, that's what I quoted him as saying @ #179:

"I had a uncle who was one of the, ah--who was part of the first American troops to go into Auschwitz, and liberate the concentration camps."

If you're Obama or an apologist, you're going to say that was a compound sentence; my uncle was with the first American troops into Auschwitz, and he helped liberate (other) concentration camps. Some of us may suspect that’s not exactly what he meant, but it doesn’t matter. This will never come back to bite him, as he has an out.

203 Hmmmm.

" At 14 seconds into that video he clearly says "and liberate the concentration camps.""

Agreed.

He clearly links his "uncle" entering into Auschwitz and the liberation of the concentration camps.

IMO this is yet another example of Obama giving a speech off the cuff and then totally fucking it up.  Obama does well with preset and rehearsed speeches.  But when it comes to doing off the cuff or debates, he's a total fuck up.

204 Patrick, this will never come back to bite him because the MSM will never challenge him. Hannity might, but who else? O'Reillly? No one listens to him.
Obama will never have to give account for this statement, and if he does he'll pull a Hill and say that he misremembered the account...here's his response, "you know...Crazy uncle Louie was in the attic for years...we thought he was over in WWII...come to find out he was just locked in the attic for five years, that Crazy Louie!"

205 my uncle was with the first American troops into Auschwitz, and he helped liberate (other) concentration camps.

But there were no American troops in Auschwitz at any time! That's the point.

Now you're right that it won't come back to bite him but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

 

206 Hmmmm.

@ Eleanor

"For example, my grandfather was one of the first U.S. troops to go into Auschwitz, and later helped liberate Buchenwald. "

So your grandfather totally missed Bastogne and the Battle of the Bulge because he was in Poland at the time?

207 Here's what L G F says, and he's right on the money - as usual:

But what kind of “mistake” is it to make up an (apparently) nonexistent uncle, and attribute heroic actions to this nonexistent person that they could not possibly have performed? And what kind of person would give a speech to veterans on Memorial Day—and make up a phony war story?

Definitely not just a gaffe; rather, a deliberate attempt to invoke the name of Auschwitz for political gain.

208

Obama has a peculiar, ah, vocal affectation that, ah, makes it pretty, ah, easy to, ah, figure out when he's just, ah, making shit up.

I mentioned it to him at our PLA meeting last week. Really. Just ask my wife, Morgan Fairchild. Yeah, that's the ticket.

209 I went to school with two sisters, one slightly older than I, one a couple of years younger. The story was that the older sister was born at Auschwitz just a few days before the camp was liberated and it was the liberation that saved her life after her mother told the guards that the baby had been still-born. That is all the story I remember, but until I read this post, I think in my own mind, I just figured it was American troops, because she ended up in America. I never really thought about the details though. And as I recall, it was not a subject that either she as a young girl or her parents wished to talk about around other young children, like myself and our friends.

And another couple who my parents were friendly with and who I ended up babysitting for when I was a teenager, had an Anne Frank-type experience in Belgium. My Mother cautioned me not to bring the subject up unless they did. Mother told me the story because I remarked that the wife always seemed so sad. Later I heard the story from the husband when he came to my high school and gave one of the most emotional talks I've ever heard and told us what his family had gone through, but that was at least 17 or more years after the actual event.

Just like those who liberated the camps or saw terrible atrocities did not wish to talk about their experiences, so those who were liberated or went through the experience in some way were silent. I am not willing to cut Obama much slack, but on this one, given that he is so much younger, I wonder if he is repeating something he overheard as a child and filled in blanks wrongly as I did with the older sister mentioned above. We were so indoctrinated into the "Red" scare by the time I was in high school, it was hard to get our minds around the idea that during the War, the Soviets were actually our allies.

210

"And to those of you who voted for George Waterhead Bush, twice--now you tell us that gaffes are an important distinguishing characteristic for presidential candidates.  The world thanks you.

I think Obama should follow something similar to McCain's particular tack of not using the words, Sunni or Shiia, until the election is over.

Posted by: Beloved Weaver at May 27, 2008 01:23 PM (MN3Lr)"

Yeah, show more admiration for a socialist pus bag with terrorists and anti-American hate-spewers for freinds than a president who actually had the balls to pick up the gauntlet thrown by Islamofascists and go after them.

You can go back to playing with yourself now, weaver. 

 

211 Dunham, Ralph E.  Inducted 28 May 1942, Army 37203549 Registered, order # 1180 Mound City, Linn Co. (Board # 1) Serial # also assigned to Lawrence W. Solomon 

He's from Kansas. Could be this guy.

The Kansas site also notes that serial # was also assigned to another individual.

It also seems that this particular "Ralph E. Dunham" appears only on the Kansas site.  A very preliminary search of the National Archives and Records Administration's U.S. World War II Army Enlistment Records, 1938-1946 database shows 31 Dunhams who were either born in or registered/enlisted in Kansas.  Obama's grandfather Stanley appears; no Ralphs at all. 

One of the few Dunham trees on ancestry.com that even mention Ralph are clear that he was born August 29, 1916.  The closest birthdate of *any* of the 10 Ralph Dunhams in the NARA database is 1917 (and he was born and enlisted in Illinois, in 1940). 

One tree says he married one Elizabeth Smith in Nova Scotia in 1947.  That may explain why he's not in the Social Security Death Index (so could "he's still alive" or "he died before retirement age").

That tree also names includes two sisters; Eleanor (m. Ralph L. Berkebile - only one in the NARA database enlisted in 1945 in AK) and Virginia (no info on her).  Perhaps this putative death-camp-liberating uncle is the spouse of one of them.

212 I think he decided that a story about his buddy Bill Ayers having PTSD from terrorist bombings didn't go over as well as an uncle in WWII.

213

"First, what American troops went into Auschwitz? As has been pointed out Auschwitz was hundreds of miles away from the US lines even after the war."

That's a good point, Drew. It isn't as if the Americans were right on the Soviets' heels into Auschwitz - I'm not sure they ever got there en masse.

He'll still never get tagged with the goof by his pals in the MSM, but it's something to know that he should be.

214

The trolls are pathetic.  First they try to claim (falsely) that he said "allies", not "uncle".  After getting their asses unmercifully handed to them, they then come back with "Americans DID go to Auschwitz".  Which, of course, never happened.

There's a reason why every DEATH camp was in Poland (Chelmo, Treblinka, Auschwitz, Sobibor, Madjenek).  Poland was unreachable by anyone in the West and the Nazis only cared about what the Brits and Yanks thought, because they knew only we could beat them.

If we hadn't supplied Russia with millions of trucks, they wouldn't have been able to defeat the Nazis by concentrating forces and then attacking with overwhelming numbers.  Nazis had almost no mechanized transport when they were deep into Russia.

Look it up, bitches.

215 It isn't as if the Americans were right on the Soviets' heels into Auschwitz - I'm not sure they ever got there en masse.

Patrick,

We were never on their heels, we were converging on each other from different directions with the Germans between us.

Some rough calculations show there was about 600 miles of enemy held territory (including ALL of Germany) between the American front lines at Bastogne and Auschwitz at the time the camp was liberated.

His 'uncle' was no where near Auschwitz when it was liberated.

216 Your outrage misses one pertinent fact. In his Memorial Day speech, Obama did not say that his uncle liberated Auschwitz. You and other right-wing bloggers relied on inaccurate reporting, and failed to double check it. Now that you have been given the facts, I presume that because you have integrity and wouldn't tell lies, that you will correct your error and apologize for it.

217 Now that you have been given the facts

The facts were exactly as reported, watch the video.

218 Observer:

Here is the You Tube link.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV1sxq8mq
vA

He says it in his speech.  So no apologies are necessary.

219

It occurred to me that Obama's heroic, if elusive, uncle might be his grandmother's brother, Charles W. Payne, born 1925, and apparently still living. But the only Kansas-born or registered individual by that name in the NARA WWII database was born in 1907.

OTOH perhaps Uncle Liberator is married to Grandma's sister Arlene, who is also living.

220

[...]I presume that because you have integrity and wouldn't tell lies[...]

Go watch the video.  Then you come back here and you apologize, if you have any integrity and wouldn't tell lies.

221

In his Memorial Day speech, Obama did not say that his uncle liberated Auschwitz.

Who ya gonna believe, me or your lyin' eyes? The statement wasn't in the prepared remarks, dumbass. He winged it and fucked it up like he usually does when he strays off the page.

As other morons have pointed out, the quality of troll comments in this thread is really miserable. C'mon guys, please, this is like shooting fish in a barrel.

222

OTOH perhaps Uncle Liberator is married to Grandma's sister Arlene, who is also living.

Again - it doesn't matter who Uncle Liberator may be, because whoever it was he did not liberate Auschwitz.

223 ""In World War Two we didn't have the concept of post traumatic stress syndrome. People had to basically handle it on their own," he said. Referring to an uncle who had been one of the first U.S. troops into Auschwitz, the concentration camp, Obama said: "The story in the family is he came home and just went up in the attic.""

Better not tell Gregory Peck:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056903/

224

Leigh: I was looking at NARA-AAD (aad.archives.gov). I got the same info you got: yes Stanley '18, no Ralph '17. No-one with the first initial E either.

This is what I hate about genealogical searches: gaps in the data.

225 As far as I can determine (here's the Wikipedia entry for WWII), American troops never got east of the Elbe River in Germany. So even if Obama meant that his uncle (great-uncle, whatever) was with the first American troops to visit Auschwitz (later, after the liberation by the Soviets), it's still a lie.

226 Posted by: An Observer at May 27, 2008 02:41 PM (DMHwf)

Still, you've got to give that one credit for having such an unintentionally ironic name.

227 You and other right-wing bloggers relied on inaccurate reporting, and failed to double check it. Now that you have been given the facts, I presume that because you have integrity and wouldn't tell lies, that you will correct your error and apologize for it.

An Observer...

Let me put this in small words you might have a shot at understanding...You are an idiot.

You linked to his prepared remarks which had this caveat on it.

Senator Obama delivered these remarks (as prepared) today in Las Cruces, New Mexico...

That means as written, not as delivered. Besides, this lie came up during the Q and A. Watch the video Patrick linked to in #197.

Now that you have been given the facts, I presume that because you have integrity and wouldn't tell lies, that you will correct your error and apologize for it.

And in case you missed it the first time...you are an idiot.

228

Not only did no American soldiers get into Russian-held territory in Europe, but the ones who crashed in Russian territory by Japan were interned (imprisoned w/better conditions).

I'm speaking specifically of the Doolittle Raid flight crew.  They sat in Russia for a year and then got smuggled out via Iran.

229 Obama in 2002 says that his grandfather enlisted "the day after Pearl Harbor". Army records show that Stanley A. Dunham enlisted Jan. 18, 1942. For dramatic effect and for the benefit of the audience Obama says one things, but the facts repeatedly say something else. He bullshits to for the benefit of the moment and the benefit of swaying his audience. It's a persistent pattern, a marker of his long-term character. His "memoir" is packed with such stuff, as if he's just another Oprah "memoir" fabricator. Something to note and remember.

230 Video now embedded here, hope Purple Avenger is OK that I appended his post.

Not really spinnable, at this point.

231

In 1945, Russia (actually USSR) WAS our ally.  They were part of the Allied forces.

232

Again - it doesn't matter who Uncle Liberator may be, because whoever it was he did not liberate Auschwitz.

Rocketeer, just trying to anticipate the inevitable defensive argument that What Obama Really Meant was, like, some other death camp, but that he was tired and Auschwitz was the first one that came to mind (or the only one the Bitter Gunclingers would recognize).

The postwar in-the-attic stuff is another red flag.  Being my own family genealogist, I can attest to how oral history gets, uh, improved. In my case, I found that the heroic 18thc. preacher who was murdered while looking for a new mission in the Canadian wilderness turned out to be a con artist who had to skip town to avoid arrest for embellishing his war records.  Left a wife and half a dozen kids to make their own way in the middle of winter.  Some relations I shared this info with a decade ago are still mad at me. 

233 Er, I should say they escaped the Russians by getting smuggled out through Iran.

234 Presto, anyone not invested in Obama Teh Lyer!11! is going to read that as an attempt to enlist as soon after Pearl Harbor as possible. There was quite the rush of volunteers after Dec 7 and not enough infrastructure to support it.

235

Rob at May 27, 2008 03:03 PM (Xccnm)

Read the comments for why this is irrelevant to the question at hand. Dickhead.

236 Fuck off.
 
Oh great.  Another Internet badass.

Once again, the Americans did not liberated Auschwitz and Patton did not liberate Dachau.
Posted by: GRC

Having been stationed in Berlin before the Wall fell and reasonably well versed in WWII history and the German langauge, I know that. Could you take your valium and realize that the two issues are separate?  My point is that those who are concentrating on the 'uncle' non-issue are diluting the point that you and I agree on--the gaffe about Auschwitz.

237 Making up an uncle who spends postwar months in an attic suffering from untreated PTSD is a "non-issue"?

238 He didn't make up the uncle!

239

The uncle is real.

It's just the enlistment story, liberation of Auschwitz, and non-combat combat career with Patton that are made up.

 

240 Obviously Obama doesn't know anything about the known facts (Auschwitz) which makes the anecdotal items (attic) suspect.

But Ralph Waldo Emerson Dunham Jr.--Obama's great-uncle--did exist and was a WWII vet, as was Obama's grandfather, Stanly Armour Dunham.

241

Is Barry related to Jesse Macbeth in any way?

242 Hmmmm.

"The uncle is real."

Really?  But I thought his mother was an only child?

243 Uncle...Great Uncle...Poland...Germany...France...Attic..all the same to Obamamama

244 Whatever the reasons for Obama's misspeak lie about his Uncle, you can take it to the bank that he'll blame someone else for his error.

245

He didn't make up the uncle!

True, he didn't make up the fact that he has at least one uncle.  Other than that, all bets appear to be off.

246 It's nice to see the Messiah's followers lining up in his footsteps - dissemble, distract, and generally make a nuisance of themselves.

Maybe one or two more can show up and say that Obama didn't say in the video what he said in the video? Maybe it was a professional Obama impersonator. Or swamp gas.

247 You're right. I matched the prepared remarks to the beginning of the video. My error, and my apology. Now, the thing to do is find out whether the uncle was in a unit that liberated a different camp. If so, then his reference to Auschwitz, as opposed to say, Buchenwald, is forgivable by all but a hardened ideologue. If, on the other hand, the uncle was never in <i><u>any</i></u> concentration camp, then you've got something.

248 THE USSR WAS OUR ALLY DURING WWII.

Doh.  So what part of "American brigade" is it again that you're having problems with?  Please be specific.  Are you arguing that the O-uncle was in fact with the Red Army?  If so, documentation would be in order here, and such a revelation would in itself certainly be newsworthy.

Your turn.

249 If so, then his reference to Auschwitz, as opposed to say, Buchenwald, is forgivable by all but a hardened ideologue.

Do we really want someone who is that retarded about world geography as president?

250

Whatever the reasons for Obama's misspeak lie about his Uncle, you can take it to the bank that he'll blame someone else for his error.

He's already laid the groundwork:   ""The story in the family is...."

251 re: 247

A honorable troll? That's one of the signs of the Apocalypse, right?

Good for you An Observer.

252 Observer, Hi I have a quick question:
What if Obama made it up, all of it (other than the Great-Uncle gaffe), what will you do? Will you abandon Obama as a non-truth-teller, or say that he probably just got the family story wrong, that we all have family stories that prove false under greater scrutiny?

253 his reference to Auschwitz, as opposed to say, Buchenwald, is forgivable by all but a hardened ideologue.

As is, say, mispronouncing the word 'nuclear?'

254

Oh please, Mero. baldilocks is hardly an Obama booster. We just don't want to look like "fake plastic turkey" petty snipers when we get into a debate with the other side. And I can bet you that the other side is looking into this comment thread and having a grand laugh at your expense.

Saying "uncle" as shorthand for the brother of your  your grandfather and, through most of childhood, acting father - or referring to an enlistment as immediate when it actually went through six weeks after an event in the holiday season which clogs up the recruitment infrastructure of the government nationwide - is trivial. Sneering at Obama for these comments is petty and, yes, a distraction.

Maybe when you're done patting yourself on the back (and other places) for your superiority, you can get around to helping dig up where exactly Ralph E Dunham was posted and where he served in 1944-45. Til then you are making a nuisance of yourself.

255 Well, there was in fact a camp at Auschwitz, and someone did in fact liberate it.  At least that much is true even if the existence of the uncle and his supposed location at the time of the Auschwitz liberation are suspect.

If this were baseball, batting .500 would be a real event.

256

If so, then his reference to Auschwitz, as opposed to say, Buchenwald, is forgivable by all but a hardened ideologue.

Or a Pole.  Or a German.

Or a survivor.

257

As is, say, mispronouncing the word 'nuclear?'

Psst.  Lauraw.  You forgot to add "unless your last name is Carter."

258 As is, say, mispronouncing the word 'nuclear?'

Actually, even I think that's pretty unforgivable. Seriously W. it's not that hard of a word.

259 Thanks, David Ross and spot-on about "plastic turkey"-ism.

260

Now, the thing to do is find out whether the uncle was in a unit that liberated a different camp.

Actually, first you have to confirm that any of his great-uncles even served in Europe at all. 

- Grandpa's brother Ralph Dunham - not in the NARA WWII database.

- Grandpa's sister Eleanor's husband Raph Berkebile - enlisted in AK in 1945.

- Grandpa's sister Virginia - we don't even know if she married.

- Grandma's brother Charles - not in the NARA WWII database.

- Grandma's sister Arlene - we don't even know if she married.

Looking forward to seeing what you find out.

261

262 Grandpa's brother Ralph Dunham - not in the NARA WWII database

Kansas WWII Vets has the two brothers listed...wonder if the databases are connected.

263

Comment 223 about the movie reminded me of something. 

My father inherited my grandfather's collection of Life magazines from the WWII era.  Shortly after the end of the war, Life published an article on the efforts of the psychiatric profession to deal with the results of combat.  They profiled any Army doctor and had some stories told by soldiers.  My mother read the article and was impressed by the brutal frankness of some the stories about officers.  Apparently, Life did not see a need to censor the opinions of the vets.

The article (according to my mother's account) was a compelling account of a doctor's efforts to help deal with some serious issues.

In other words, in the immediate aftermath of the war, the US military made an effort to help, but was only partially successful.

264

You're welcome baldilocks.

Also, thanks Leigh; this is exactly the kind of data we need. A Ralph E Dunham signed up for regular Army at Mound City in 28 May 1942, and I'm certain this is Obama's "uncle Ralph". So that means a search for serial number 37203549 in Army records is in order.

 My understanding is that Army grunts swarmed into Europe and that Marines dealt with the tiny islands of the Pacific.

265 gateway pundit dug up one of Obama's 2002 mentions of his grandfather's service and how GD heard stories from troops who first entered Treblinka and Auschwitz.

I call total bogustood. Calculated puffery. First, there was no close relative or uncle mentioned, and by my way of thinking , he would not have neglected to mention a direct account of an uncle, at this earlier 2002 mention.

Also, the obvious, neither Auschwitz not Treblinka was liberated by the US, and GD's chances of hearing direct accounts of conditions at these particular accounts from soldier buddies, is remote.

The story Obama told has stretched and grown. So I think he's made it up.

266 There were 22 US Army Divisions deployed to the Pacific Theater of Operations.

267 David:

Maybe when you get off your high horse you can show me where I was talking about baldilocks.

'cause I wasn't.

HAND.

268

If this were baseball, batting .500 would be a real event.

Unfortunately this is bowling, and you just bowled a 50.

But in Obama's case, at least that's better then usual..

269 <i>What if Obama made it up, all of it (other than the Great-Uncle gaffe), what will you do? Will you abandon Obama as a non-truth-teller, or say that he probably just got the family story wrong, that we all have family stories that prove false under greater scrutiny?</i>

If a big ice sheet separates from Greenland, and the ocean levels rise by 15 feet, will you abandon your denial of science and issue a stream of apologies to Al Gore? Anyway, let's see how this shakes out about Obama's uncle. Now I'm curious. I'll say this much: If he doesn't have a relative who went to the concentration camps as an American soldier, then I'm going to want to know the full story of how that anecdote was concocted.

But if he's got a relative who went to this or that concentration camp with American troops, and all Obama did was use the wrong name, then it's forgettable. Just as I don't care that Bush mispronounces "nuclear." What bothers me about Bush goes much, much further than that.

270 How dare you distract the MESSIAH~! with all these distracting distractions anyway?

271 Calling a great-uncle an "uncle" is not a gaffe. Stop calling it one.

The telling thing is that he has "grown" the family legends about ww2 service since 2002. He's a fat faker. When he talked about treblinka and Auschwitz then, it's only Granpa gets a mention, and then only through accounts of other soldiers.

Granpa's second hand accounts from fellow-soldiers transmute into an uncle, given six years. Did those fellow soldiers talk to Grandpa EVER talk about "Treblinka and Auschwitz" , psecifically? Is it possible he relayed accounts of soldiers who dealt with other concentration camps?Who added that detail?

Given the puffery Obama has applied to the story himself, I'm going to go out on a limb and say Obama is the family legend butterer.

Using the term Auschwitz interchangeably with "concentration camp" is probably him dolling up the story to make it sexier.

I suppose that could be grandpa's telling of the story at fault.
I"ll give Obama the benefit of the doubt on that.

But his uncle never went to Auschwitz, I'll bet you a case of valu-rite.

272

<i>will you abandon your denial of science</i>

You first.

273 Boys don't fight over me. :-P

Anyway, about Uncle Ralph:  the KS records show that he shares a serial number with one Lawrence W. Solomon, so keep that in mind.

274 I remember very few details, but my German teacher in high school was stationed in Germany immediately after VE day and he had something to do with documents and sorting out who was who coming out of the concentration camps. A job he got because he was fluent in reading and writing German. He was attached to the U.S. high command in Germany and visited some of the concentration camps after VE Day as part of his repatriation job and also as a translator. There are those on the U.S. side that had pretty much first hand knowledge at that point, if my memory of what the teacher told us is accurate. Perhaps Uncle Ralph had a support job like my teacher.

275 "Calling a great-uncle an "uncle" is not a gaffe. Stop calling it one. "


And by that I mean it's perfectly normal to refer to great uncles and aunts as "my Uncle" or "my Aunt". That's not any kind of foolishness or trickery there.

276 Calling a great-uncle an "uncle" is not a gaffe. Stop calling it one.

Nope.  I called my great-uncles "Uncle" and my great-aunts "Aunt."  That part of this latest Obamism is a red herring--a truth mixed in with the gaffe-lies-whatever.  It's a pattern with him.  Don't fall for it.

277 I mean not you Sarah, others.

278 I agree, if he's got a family member that went to this or that concentration camp with American troops and all he did was use the wrong name then okay, but not then he's got a lot of splaining to do. And the problem is that the Obamamaniacs will give him a pass either way.

I find it strange that they claim Bush lied about Iraq and WMB, but will say that Obama just misrememberd or some foolish family member told him the story wrong. If in fact Barry got a like of BS from Crazy Uncle Ralphie the left will say that Barry's faultless on this....but wouldn't that be bad intel?

279 Using the term Auschwitz interchangeably with "concentration camp" is probably him dolling up the story to make it sexier.

That's ludicrous. If he's got a relative who went to Buchenwald or some other camp, I think it's simply a mistake on his part. To many people, "Auschwitz" and "concentration camp" are synonymous. It's easy to imagine someone making that error. The real question would arise if he didn't have a relative who went to any concentration camp after the Germans surrendered. Then he'd have some 'splainin' to do.

As for calling an great uncle and uncle, don't be so foolish. In fact, a great uncle is an uncle.

280 Oh geez. "As for calling a great uncle an uncle ..."

281 I too would call my great-uncle "Uncle" when speaking TO him, but when speaking ABOUT him I would say "great-uncle". Maybe I'm strange, but as I public speaker I think its important to get the wording right...but I'm not a Prez candidate.

282 I too would call my great-uncle "Uncle" when speaking TO him, but when speaking ABOUT him I would say "great-uncle". Maybe I'm strange, but as I public speaker I think its important to get the wording right...but I'm not a Prez candidate.

I can't believe I'm arguing this...I'm sorry to all, including my mother. As someone said before...red herring.

283 If it turns out that the whole "relative who helped liberate the camps" story is a complete fabrication, well, I suppose Obama could write off Florida. Which he probably has to do anyway, unless he sticks Clinton on the ticket.

284

To many people, "Auschwitz" and "concentration camp" are synonymous.

Pray not to a candidate for U.S. president.  I'll give "many people" a pass, but  Obama is not one of them.

285 If it turns out that he fabricated it, shouldn't he be written off?

286 Richard 172:

I guess that's one of the many holes in the story then....

287 Well.. i dont want to defend Obama, but I vividly remember my gandmother, who was in Aushwitz, telling me that she was libirated by Americans. My grandfather, who also was in Aushwitz, was libirated by the Soviets. I cant describe the delight my grandmother imparted to me as she descirbed seeing soldiers "from america". So i'm not sure what the official historical records show...

288 No flaming skull?

289

Ben Smith update:

"Earlier, the Republican National Committee pounced on Obama's improbable statement that an uncle had served in the unit that liberated Auschwitz.

In fact, campaign spokesman Bill Burton says, his great uncle was a member of the 89th Infantry Division that liberated the Ohrduf camp, part of Buchenwald and according to the Holocaust Museum, the first concentration camp liberated by U.S. troops.

The soldier in question, Burton said, is Obama's grandmother's brother, who's still alive."

www.politico.com

290

My understanding is that Army grunts swarmed into Europe and that Marines dealt with the tiny islands of the Pacific.

You may have been a little mislead by all the movies.  The war against Japan included far more than the Pacific Islands.  The Army far outweighed the Marines in the Pacific.  There were 1,791,782 US forces in the Pacific in December 1943. Of these 826,672 were Army (Including Army Air Force) and 160,410 were Marines (Remainder being Navy).*

The numbers may have changed a little as the war progressed but I am not sure if they would have been sending the Army back to fight in Europe.

<A HREF="http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-P-Strategy/Strategy-26.html#table6 "> Table 6--Strength, U.S. Forces in the Pacific, 31 December 1943
</A>

291

Sorry about the link (New attempt):

<A HREF="http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-P-Strategy/Strategy-26.html#table6 "> Table 6--Strength, U.S. Forces in the Pacific, 31 December 1943 </A>

292 Pray not to a candidate for U.S. president.  I'll give "many people" a pass, but  Obama is not one of them.

If this turns out to be nothing more than Obama mistaking Buchenwald for Auschwitz, and you still want to rant and rave about that, well, then I guess we'll just have to see how well that works out for you.

293

How dare you attack Ralph Dunham!  Don't you know that he's off limits?  He's in the same "off limits" stockade as Tony Rezko, Bill Ayers, Rev. Wright, the Palestinian phone-bankers for the Messiah of Changiness Himself, Jimma Carter, The Chicago Machine Inc., Stanley Ann Dunham Obama etc., Obama's "throw her under the bus" grandmother and of course Michelle the Mouth.

A very crowded stockage, indeed.

294

From Obama's campaign:

"Senator Obama’s family is proud of the service of his grandfather and uncles in World War II – especially the fact that his great uncle was a part of liberating one of the concentration camps at Buchenwald. Yesterday he mistakenly referred to Auschwitz instead of Buchenwald in telling of his personal experience of a soldier in his family who served heroically," Burton says.

I think the peanut gallery can now move on to other outrages. I understand that Obama recently neglected to tie one of his shoes. His left shoe. It figures.

295 I was the big dog in the Pacific for a reason. 

296

People from Kansas (and the South generally) call everyone type of cousin (first, second, third, twice removed, whatever) 'cousin', and same with aunts and uncles. No big deal. Obviously Obama remembered the imnportant points - concentration camp, first liberated, his grandfather's brother - and misremembered the actual name. Maybe it was his memory, maybe it was his grandparents' memories in telling him the story. Why are so many of you so quick to call him a liar?

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0508/Obamas_World_War_II_history.html
In fact, campaign spokesman Bill Burton says, his great uncle was a member of the 89th Infantry Division that liberated the Ohrduf camp, part of Buchenwald and, according to the Holocaust Museum, the first concentration camp liberated by U.S. troops.
The soldier in question, Burton said, is Obama's grandmother's brother, who's still alive.
UPDATE: "Senator Obama’s family is proud of the service of his grandfather and uncles in World War II – especially the fact that his great uncle was a part of liberating one of the concentration camps at Buchenwald. Yesterday he mistakenly referred to Auschwitz instead of Buchenwald in telling of his personal experience of a soldier in his family who served heroically," Burton says.

297

Which is correct? His description of his grandfathers service in his book or the description he gave in thisMemorial day speech.

220 , 221.  Whatever it takes.  

298 This is far worse then mistaken sunni for shiite, because whats more important in todays foreign policy.  I for one want a WWII history major rather then an econ policy wonk.

Americans are 2nd class liberators.  Russians should have all the credit for defeating the Nazi's.

299 Why are so many of you so quick to call him a liar?

Well, this is a far right-wing website, and the far right-wing loves the smear. Always has, always will. Beyond that, there's a tactical issue. McBush is 71 years old going on 90. He's an old man, and as such he is prone to numerous senior moments that go well beyond substituting Auschwitz for Buchenwald. Making a mountain out of these moehills is a form of right-wing insurance for the time this summer or fall when McBush has an "Admiral Stockdale" moment.

When it happens, Ace of Spades and his fellow travelers will say, "McCain's having blurted out, 'Who am I? Why am I here?' is no different than the time Obama lied about the so-called uncle who liberated Auschwitz." Just wait. It'll happen.

300

Getting nit-picky here. Anyone who talks about the "liberation" of Treblinka is taking some serious halluciogenic drugs. The Germans destroyed Treblinka themeslves in 1943 in an "uh-oh, the jig is up" moment after a rebellion and escape by some of the prisoners. That extermination camp was never liberated.

If Obama or his grandfather heard from troops of any kind who entered Treblinka in 1945, they were lying like rug.

301

The soldier in question, Burton said, is Obama's grandmother's brother, who's still alive."

Aha - so it's Uncle Charlie Payne after all (see my post #219). The brother of the woman Obama threw under the bus.

Boy, those typical white relations sure are coming in handy.

Okay, now we know it wasn't Auschwitz, but Buchenwald.

Now we need to find out whether Charlie's six months in the attic with PTSD was actually six weeks in an upstairs bedroom with the want ads.

302 Unless he makes the same gaffe in front of the Russians.  Who are still very sensitive over the Americans and British dragging their feet over invading Europe, and for taking over one of their accomplishments in  the war.

303 If Obama or his grandfather heard from troops of any kind who entered Treblinka in 1945, they were lying like rug.

Obama hasn't mentioned Treblinka. He interchanged Auschwitz and Buchenwald. It was a mistake, one that (naturally) the far right-wing feels has disqualified Obama from being commander in chief.

304

Give him a break.  He didn't mean to say  10,000 people died in a tornado.  He didn't mean to indicate we had 57 states.  He didn't mean we should attack Pakistan.  He didn't mean Arkansas was closer to Kentucky than Illinois.  He didn't mean we needed Arabic translators in Pushi Afghanistan. He didn't mean to confuse the dates of the Selma march and his parents meeting.  Just like he didn't mean Auschwitz.

How does he spell potato?

305

Obama hasn't mentioned Treblinka.

Yes he has, but not in this speech.  He did say in his Iraq War speech in 2002 that his father "heard the stories of fellow troops who first entered Auschwitz and Treblinka."

So who are those troops?  "Fellow" implies American, but that isn't possible.   Couldn't the guy have done just a tiny bit of research?

306 this is a far right-wing website

Ha, ha, ha.  Don't spend much time here eh?

"Caesarist"?  Check!.
"Smart Military Blog"?  Check!.
Sophmoric?  Of course.
Vulgar?  Absolutely.
"Far Right"?  Not so much.

307 Obama hasn't mentioned Treblinka. He interchanged Auschwitz and Buchenwald. It was a mistake, one that (naturally) the far right-wing feels has disqualified Obama from being commander in chief. ~ An Observer

How many mulligans are you going to give the Sainted One?  And isn't some accurate knowledge of real history kinda impo'tent if one wants to be C-in-C?  Or is being a 'community organizer' a magic shield that protects Barry from all legitimate criticism?

How does he spell potato? ~  General MacArthur

Waffle fries.

308

Why are so many of you so quick to call him a liar?

Because the whole thing feels like "art." Obama wanted to communicate a saccharine romantic ideal, so he summarized and puffed the story up to give it more rhetorical appeal. Clinton did this all the time and it's morally offensive.

Well, this is a far right-wing website, and the far right-wing loves the smear. Always has, always will. Beyond that, there's a tactical issue. McBush is 71 years old going on 90. He's an old man, and as such he is prone to numerous senior moments that go well beyond substituting Auschwitz for Buchenwald. Making a mountain out of these moehills is a form of right-wing insurance for the time this summer or fall when McBush has an "Admiral Stockdale" moment.

Considering that 90% of us despise McCain and everything he stands for, I'm not so sure attacking him for his senile folly is going to get much of an argument.

309 Unless he makes the same gaffe in front of the Russians.  Who are still very sensitive over the Americans and British dragging their feet over invading Europe, and for taking over one of their accomplishments in  the war.

Once he's president and goes overseas, I'm sure he'll attack the patriotism of his Republican opponents without such horrendous missteps. Who knows, maybe he'll even quote their private phone and e-mail exchanges picked up in surveillance authorized by the Patriot Act and blessed by Bush's Supreme Court.

310
" If he's got a relative who went to Buchenwald or some other camp, I think it's simply a mistake on his part."

He should trouble to tell true stories when he tells true stories.

The thing that marks that particular element of the 'gaffe" as deceptive is that in 2002, the relative he brought out as knowing about Auschwitz and Treblinka, was not Uncle, but Grandfather., and then only as second-hand information from accounts Grandpa heard related by other soldiers. Obama would have brought up Uncle at that time, if he's had one involved in liberation of a concentration camp, Auschwitz in particular, as it would have been even more effective for his purposes, then.


FYI, adding uncecessary specificity to a story is a hallmark of the prevaricator. He did it because it has more emotional punch to say "Auschwitz" than "(unpecified) concentration camp" and makes the story seem truer and that Obama is closer to the story, more a part of it. Adding the detail is to make it seem REAL, and undeniable. (And, for gravy, his uncle had to "lberate it" not simply see it, or help deal with the aftermath of liberation) It was sone t create an impression that Obama really knows something PTSD in heroes who see terrible things in war, and the changitude he would necessarily bring to help our victim soldiers.

I'm sure he COUNTED on "Auschwitz" just being interchangeable for any given concentration camp. It probably was in his mind. That blase ness about facts and ignorance of history is inexcuseable in a presidential candidate. Neither way of looking at it ( and it's probably both) is flattering to him, or at all a sort of malaprop or slip to simply write off.

No, he dolled this story up to impress. And he was too foolish and ignorant to have his facts straight when trying to persuade with a "true" anecdote.

311 He didn't mean Arkansas was closer to Kentucky than Illinois.

I hope you're wrong about him not meaning to say it, because if you should happen to check a map you will see that the NE corner of Arkansas borders the SW corner of Kentucky. But I'm sure this was merely a premediated lie on your part, right? Come on, wingnuts, don't be your own self-parody. Wait -- on second thought, carry on!

312 He did it because it has more emotional punch to say "Auschwitz" than "(unpecified) concentration camp" and makes the story seem truer and that Obama is closer to the story, more a part of it.

Oh, horseshit. It'd have been just as "punchy" to say Buchenwald. You people are really off in la-la land. Which, from my side's point of view, ain't such a bad thing!

313 If he made the mistake in camp names, then okay. But something seems shady to me, why wait until the right-wing bloggers go nuts with this to issue a correction? Why wait so long? Were they finding a connection? I served in the first battalion to break through at the battle of the bulge...true, but was I there?

314

I hope you're wrong about him not meaning to say it, because if you should happen to check a map you will see that the NE corner of Arkansas borders the SW corner of Kentucky.

What fucking map are you looking at? It must be the new one with 57 states on it.

Try this one.

315 NE corner of Arkansas borders the SW corner of Kentucky.

Uh-oh, no it doesn't! Now I am the premediated liar! Damn bootheel of Missouri will unmask the prevaricator every time. Turns out that IL and KY are the same distance from AR. Wingnuts, gas up the nukes!

316 But something seems shady to me, why wait until the right-wing bloggers go nuts with this to issue a correction? Why wait so long? Were they finding a connection?

They waited so long because they had to seek the Comintern's permission before making a correction. Or was that the Trilateral Commission? Or the Islamofascist League? I'm telling you, it's a conspiracy.

317

Oh, horseshit. It'd have been just as "punchy" to say Buchenwald.

No, it wouldn't. Auschwitz is the prototypical concentration camp in the mind of the general public and I guarantee is a more recognized name than Buchenwald. And the fact that Obama feels the need to do this sort of thing offends me. Maybe it doesn't offend you; but that's why you don't mind pulling the lever for this moron.

318

What fucking map are you looking at? ~ Andy

The same one that has Appalachia running through Ohio.

319

@ lauraw

You reichwing chickenhawks should just stfu! If you didn't serve in WWII and liberate Auschwitz yourself then you have no right to an opinion!!1!

320

11 Maybe he meant his 'Uncle Joe.'

You mean 'Uncle Tom' don't you?

321 Other observer

Sure it would have been just as punchy to say Buchenwald. Did someone give you an argument to the contrary?

322 I'm not saying a conspiracy...I didn't see any black helicopters in the clip (they must have been behind the camera with the illuminati), but I do find it convenient for them to be proven wrong to come out with the "truuf".

Now...if Bushie or McWingnut had said this the lefties in the MSN would be running alerts on this...even with the change they would claim they were both unfit to lead a choir, much less a country (to which some probably already agree)...all I'm saying is same standard.

323

The thing that marks that particular element of the 'gaffe" as deceptive is that in 2002, the relative he brought out as knowing about Auschwitz and Treblinka, was not Uncle, but Grandfather, and then only as second-hand information from accounts Grandpa heard related by other soldiers. Obama would have brought up Uncle at that time, if he's had one involved in liberation of a concentration camp, Auschwitz in particular, as it would have been even more effective for his purposes, then.

Exactly. And the rest of what LauraW says in that post too.

 

324 Boy, I wish I could've caught all the breaks that moonbat "An Observer" guy is tossing to Obama.

325 You and other right-wing bloggers relied on inaccurate reporting, and failed to double check it.

Heh. Irony.

Auschwitz, Buchenwald, whatever. One of those places they dealt properly with the New York Money Men, right?

326 Well upon rethinking, it would have been very NEARLY as punchy as the hot-button invocation Auschwitz, which probably has a bit more of a sock to the gut, having a Hollywood name-recognition thing going on for it.

I call him on his bogusness. Because the (unecessary to the truth) specificity of the camp-name added emotional salience and "truthiness" to his anecdote, he pulled a recognizable name out of the air. He might have said, "a concentration camp" if he hadn't nailed down the truth of the story.
And the "liberating" stuff, shows at minimum, he doesn't know much about WW2, but would feign invoke it anyway, in his policies.

327 Now...if Bushie or McWingnut had said this the lefties in the MSN would be running alerts on this...even with the change they would claim they were both unfit to lead a choir, much less a country (to which some probably already agree)...all I'm saying is same standard.

All I have is my own standard. It was a mistake. He got the name wrong. It's a nothingburger, and you know it. But hey, go nuts. Let people see just how desperate you are!

I wish I could've caught all the breaks that moonbat "An Observer" guy is tossing to Obama.

"All the breaks?" No, more like one break. He said Auschwitz instead of Buchenwald. Big deal. Only a whackjob would try to make a Big Issue of it.

328

Dachau was designed as a labour camp. The Nazis turned it, secondarily, into a death camp after the Soviets looked to be about to occupy Auschwitz. The Nazis had moved the latter's Jews back west by then, though. Much of this is detailed in Maus.

Buchenwald, I don't know. If it were in Germany proper then I expect it was like Dachau.

I quite forgive the Jews of Auschwitz for not seeing Stalin's troops as liberators and for being more enthusiastic about the American and British efforts. Stalin from 1937 on was becoming increasingly antiSemitic himself. "Doctor's Plot", etc etc.

329 I'm not saying a conspiracy...I didn't see any black helicopters in the clip (they must have been behind the camera with the illuminati)

Oh come on. You're just not looking hard enough. I'm sure some people here will be able to help you. This is all part of a plot. Black man wants to fly black helicopters. One concentration camp is as good as another. Grandfather, uncle. Who owns the Federal Reserve? Don't you see the patterns?

330 He said Auschwitz instead of Buchenwald.

Says who? It's not like because Auschwitz is obviously bogus that there was any Buchenwald experience for the Uncle, nor that if there were such an experience for uncle, Obama didn't both make a history gaffe AND assert a specific fact that at minimum hadn't been fact checked, and which he probably just pulled out of the air to give his story more "authenticity."

331

All I have is my own standard. It was a mistake. He got the name wrong.

And you still don't seem to realize that some of us don't think it was a mistake. It was done the way it was done because the real truth ("his great-uncle saw the remains of a labor-camp after the war") didn't further his rhetoric about PTSD. So you have your standard and I have mine. If you think it's "desperate," that's your watch.

332 Trust with the last few years of leadership and the current crop of future national leaders (right and left alike) we should all be desperate for a quality person in the White House, not someone who will misspeak for political gain. Obama, McCain, Clinton are all enough to make me desperate for someone else. They all do the same thing, but at least McCain can blame it on age, what's Barry's and Hill's excuse?

333 Either truly a poor grasp of the factual historical events surrounding this "great" uncle's service, (including the actual  Infantry division,location,specific camp, which betrays at the very least a neglect of detail and preparation which has come to be somewhat of a hallmark for this candidate) or as Andrew McCarthy said in Weekend at Bernies:  "Someone tried to smoke it past the wrong guy."

334 trust, but verify

335 I can't help but think of the Mars Climate Orbiter whenever people think that minor inaccuracies aren't a big deal. Course, as an engineering student I learn about quite a few cases where getting it wrong by a slight amount can lead to disaster, but smashing a spacecraft into Venus because people forgot to translate between metric and imperial units is the more impressive account.

Oh, Mars, sorry. But hey, just a name difference, not much of a problem there, right? Mars, Venus, they're both planets, and educating the children using federal money is more important than anything in space, right?

Another story I recall is the windscreen of an aircraft blowing out due to a mismatch of the bolts securing it, leading to aircraft depressurisation and the pilot being sucked out and flung over the nose of the jetliner until it finally landed. The flight engineer had to hold his legs to prevent him falling while the co-pilot flew.

336 "trust, but verify"

Verify, THEN trust, then verify again later just to be sure.

337 And you still don't seem to realize that some of us don't think it was a mistake.

None Dare Call It Conspiracy!

We should all be desperate for a quality person in the White House, not someone who will misspeak for political gain.

What "political gain" did he get by saying Auschwitz instead of Buchenwald? It takes a far right-winger indeed to argue, as some have in this thread, that Auschwitz is sexier than Buchenwald. Yeah. quite the hit parade there.

It was done the way it was done because the real truth ("his great-uncle saw the remains of a labor-camp after the war") didn't further his rhetoric about PTSD.

A "labor camp?" Hey, bud, 50,000 people died as Buchenwald, including 15,000 during the evacuation after liberation. They died because they were starved to death and beyond help. If you had seen it, you might have wanted to be alone for a few months while you thought about it. But wait! It's a communist conspiracy?

What lunatics you people are. Please, keep it up!

338 Payne, Charles E. Inducted 9 June 1943, Army 37531353 Registered, order # V11125 Augusta, Butler Co. (Board # 2)

His father Rolla was employed in Augusta in 1930.

339 I'm just hanging around to see if observer can break the record for saying right-winger. The boy has some talent.

340 Observer, most of the people in my Nazi Germany history class hadn't heard of Buchenwald until we got to the concentration camp unit; but everyone had heard of Auschwitz.  A lot of people thought it was the only camp.  I'm willing to admit that it may possibly have been a slip on Obama's part, but given my experience and the general smarminess of polititicans it seems more like a grab for an emotional response to me.

341 Campaign Suit: $400.00
Muzzle for Michelle: New Diamond Ring
Endearing candidate to Vets who really think he's a chump: priceless
Oh trust me, he was trying to have some gains with a particular group of people, if he wasn't he wouldn't have said anything about Uncle Ralph or was it Chuck...ah doesn't matter, they are the same person anyway.

342 damnit, forgot to de-sockpuppet

343

None Dare Call It Conspiracy!

Um, no. I just call it the sort of sleazy political art that turns me off.

A "labor camp?" Hey, bud, 50,000 people died as Buchenwald, including 15,000 during the evacuation after liberation.

What's the matter? Calling it a labor camp shades the emotional impact of it? I've never heard of such a thing!

They died because they were starved to death and beyond help. If you had seen it, you might have wanted to be alone for a few months while you thought about it.

No, I don't believe this story. I stick by my assertion that Auschwitz has more name recognition and was chosen for that reason.

But wait! It's a communist conspiracy?

Call Archie Bunker and Colonel Flagg immediately! Your mastery of 70s TV stereotypes is unmatched.

344

Now, now.

When you try to make Chauncey Gardener President, you should expect him to be a liberal-educated idiot with no grasp on reality.

345 I think the camp liberating thing has been thoroughly sorted out, but I'm going to go ahead and call horseshit on the PTSD thing.

"In World War Two we didn't have the concept of post traumatic stress syndrome. People had to basically handle it on their own," he said. Referring to an uncle who had been one of the first U.S. troops into Auschwitz, the concentration camp, Obama said: "The story in the family is he came home and just went up in the attic."

Yes, there was the concept of PTSD.  It was called "Battle Fatigue."  (during WWI it was called "Shell Shock")  If Barry's uncle served under Patton, I'm sure he'd be well aware of Patton's famous incident of slapping one of his soldiers who refused to fight, claiming battle fatigue.
Just because it wasn't called PTSD, doesn't mean that the condition hadn't been identified, or had a proscribed course of treatment.  Whether or not it was very effective is something entirely different.

346 Jeez - you right -wingers are so easily swayed.

Obama mispoke and said "Auschwitz" instead of "Buchenwald". His great uncle was a member of the 89th Infantry Division that helped liberate Buchenwald. No vast conspiracy - you need to look at the current administration to find all of those.

You get all bent out of shape over this, but where is you indignation over the treatment of our veterans? Where is your concern over the war profiteering, the billions of US dollars unaccounted for in Iraq? Where is the outrage over the fact that our sons and daughters, brothers and sisters are dieing in the desert while the man responsible for 911 sends out taped threats safely from the mountains of Pakistan? You call yourselves "Patriots", but you're merely sheep, easily herded, following a shepherd that protects only himself and the wealthy elite he calls his "base".

347 WakeUp,new contender for using right-winger...you got a lot of ground to cover to catch up with observer. Still, I like your spirit. I think you can take him.

348

Obama mispoke and said......

He does that a lot, doesn't he WakeUp?

349 "Auschwitz" vs "Buchenwald"
or
Shia vs Sunni

Which is more crucial for the next commander and chief of our country to understand the distinctions between?

350 I love how all these nuts come in talking about how we think it's a conspiracy.  How do you get conspiracy out of thinking (rightly or wrongly) that one guy's a lying ass, or an exagerating ass?

351

Shia vs Sunni

50 vs 57 states

Which is more crucial for the next commander and chief of our country to understand the distinctions between?

352 WakeUp...Russia upset with Prez Obamamama for taking credit for something they did, or Prez McMuncin upsetting people who want us dead anyway...seems like a toss up to me, other than wrecking relations with an ally.

353 "Auschwitz" vs "Buchenwald"
or
Shia vs Sunni

See, I wouldn't call Ace's place a love McCain site...more a hold your nose and vote. So I'm not sure you will get a ton of traction with that line.

Besides, this was more a make fun of Obama thread and not our weekly dose of bash McCain. You should come back later in the week when one of the posters here will throw us a little red meat. They can't do it often, gets us too worked up.

354 You really think the Russians are "upset" about Obama's comments? LOL!

The only thing they may be upset about is that negotiations with the next president (McCain or Obama) won't be so easily swayed to their favor once the mental midget's term is up.

And as hard as it is for some of you to believe, and this is a real stretch because it requires common sense and some *gasp* thought, not all Muslims want us dead. Just like not all Christians think that Hitler was a tool of God or the that Catholic church is a whore.

Sadly I fear that most that trend to the right in this country (as well as those on the far left) are unable to grasp issues beyond the 20 second sound-bite. Our politicians are forced to truncate their thoughts and speak in single syllables so that the voters can understand. Unfortunately, the world is far too complicated tobe understood in such terms.

355
And as hard as it is for some of you to believe, and this is a real stretch because it requires common sense and some *gasp* thought, [insert banal truism here].

Well spoken young one. You certainly showed these reichwingers their place.

356 Oh, horseshit. It'd have been just as "punchy" to say Buchenwald.

Ask 10 random college students if they've heard of Buchenwald, then ask them if they've heard of Auschwitz.  Report back with your results. 

I'm betting 9 might have heard of Auschwitz, and I think you'll be lucky to find 2 that have heard of Buchenwald.

357 354 You really think the Russians are "upset" about Obama's comments? LOL!

You're right.  The Russians wouldn't get upset about the remarks of a possible future president.  Why it's almost as ridiculous as believing that they'd be upset about the plot of some dumb American movie.

358

Now it appears Obama's uncle is supposed to have been involved in liberating not Auschwitz, not Buchenwald, but Buchenwald's slave-labor subcamp Ohrdruf (a name likely unrecognizable to most Americans under age 70).

Ohrdruf, per the President, Society of the 89th Division, WWII:

...these camps which I and others prefer to refer to as slave labor camps, were not engaged in any discernable program of extermination of certain groups such as the Jews. An after action report of the G-5 staff (military government) of the 89th Division was given to me with a query from a young lawyer in Belgium. The survivors of many of these camps were administered to by military government personnel and were found to be victims of sickness, starvation and slave labor to the extent that most of them were in very bad shape. These people, along with many others became classified as displaced persons (DP's); some of them spent many years in DP camps in Germany before finding a new home elsewhere. But in answer to my query, there was no connection between the activities of the concentration camps and these slave labor camps.

Role of the 89th in that liberation, from a platoon leader of the 89th Recon Troop:

My 2nd Platoon was reconnoitering ahead of the infantry regiment (355th) on that day and we came upon this complex and two German soldiers who were guarding the front gates. We shot and killed one, and the other ran off. Setting up a modest defense, we entered the compound and saw first hand the horror of life in a Nazi concentration camp. We radioed our troop headquarters for instructions and were told to remain there, keeping the inmates contained (this was hardly necessary, as most were in their bunks, hardly able to walk) while HQ contacted the infantry to relieve us. In less than three hours, the infantry (3rd Battalion, 355th Inf) arrived and we were sent on a new mission.

http://www.89infdivww2.org/ohrdruf/ohrdrufintro.htm

Just out of curiosity - was the entire 89th involved in this three-hour operation that sent Uncle Charlie to the attic for six months?

I vaguely recall that somebody was trying to palm off some bogus Ohrdruf "confession" papers a few years back, which were soundly debunked. Can't find it now.  But it does seem that for awhile, quite a few vets were claiming to have been involved in the liberation that weren't.  

 

359 Good job kiddo,  Obama uses one lie after another, anything to win... the media doesn't EVER investigate his past and present, cuz they luvvvvv him!

360 The likeliest explanation is that his grandfather liberated Dachau or another camp. If that's the case, I'd hardly fault him for "one of his more egregious and easily demonstrated lies", just a sketchy grasp of the details of WWII.

Posted by: JSinger at May 27, 2008 09:20 AM (EqFh0)

 

 

IT IS STUNNING SOMEONE WOULD SAY THAT, USE THIS EXPLANATION TO EXPLAIN AWAY HIS HORSESHIT.

HE'S RUNNING FOR "PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES".  WHAT ABOUT THAT DON'T YOU GET?

361

I vaguely recall that somebody was trying to palm off some bogus Ohrdruf "confession" papers a few years back, which were soundly debunked

Ugh, that needs clarifying. Basically the papers (which somebody wanted to sell on ebay, of course) were supposed to be a smuggled-out copy of the official confession of the camp commander, but had a lot in common with the TANG papers stylewise. I think the consensus was that they were probably a US GI's contemporary paraphrasing of the actual (and real) confession.

Sorry to get tangental.

362 Sadly I fear that most that trend to the right in this country (as well as those on the far left) are unable to grasp issues beyond the 20 second sound-bite.

Agree with that...but I would not just limit it to the "far left", maybe on you elites can grasp issues 21 seconds or greater...so what's that 2% of the population.

Our politicians are forced to truncate their thoughts and speak in single syllables so that the voters can understand. Unfortunately, the world is far too complicated to be understood in such terms.

I don't think they are forced to, I think they choose to as to limit any damage that might be inflicted by poorly chosen words or phrases, like 57 states, my uncle who went into Auschwitz, we landed under heavy fire, shia or sunni, etc. I know its easy to beat up on the little Bushie for being simple, lets face it...he makes it easy, but given Obamama's thought before speech deficiency I think the politicians should speak less. People on the left decry that we look like idiots for pointing this out, but they are the ones who say it. Face it, Obamama might be able to say Nuclear, but does understand the difference between a nuke and a patriot missile? I hope for your sake the doesn't see them as interchangeable, but that is too complicated for a simpleton like me so I'll just watch flashie thing in the sky and try to eat the paper-like snow of fallout.

363 I hope for your sake the he doesn't see them as interchangeable

364

In 2002, it was his grandfather marching with Patton and hearing of Auschwitz and Treblinka from fellow American troops. No mention of the uncle.

There were many Charles Paynes in central Kansas, but his great-uncle is apparently named Charles W. Payne. The only two men named Charles W. Payne who joined in Kansas according to the Kansas rolls both enlisted in the Navy.

Be nice to have some confirmation of a Charles W. Payne actually on the roster of a unit of the 89th, wouldn't it? Or any Charlie Payne from Kansas. Someone's grasp of history stinks, which isn't so good in a wannabe president.

 

 

365 JackStraw-

I avoid political blogs and talk radio because I have found 99% of the crap (right and left) to be hyperbolic horesh!t. I'm disgusted with the current state of this country, and I put the blame squarely on the shoulders of this administration, but not because the president can't pronounce "nuclear".

Sadly, it's nearly impossible to have intelligent dialog about politics in this day and age because of the wedge that has been driven between the 2 parties, and the fact the media has reduced all discussion down to easily digestible chunks for the masses. There is no understanding of the issues beyond the catchy headlines, and far too many of us have become cronies towing the party line without pause or question.

I will gladly "own" Obama as my cadidate of choice, because I think he brings something different to the table. I felt the same way about McCain in 2000 and was dismayed to see him get kneecapped by the Rove lead Bush campaign. Unfortunately, McCain seems to have learned the wrong lesson's in his first attempt at the presidency. If he were they same man he appeared to be in 2000, I would feel we were in a win-win in November.

366 "I will gladly "own" Obama as my cadidate of choice, because I think he brings something different to the table"

Empty Charisma, Class/Race war rhetoric, inexperience, a lack of knowledge or interest in anything that doesn't benefit him, lack of character depth, lack of foresight and a dishonourable style of realpolitik.

Did I forget anything?

367 What does Obama bring to the table that is different other than he is different that Bush? He's not in politics for you or the country. He gets caught in a lie, fabrication, puffery, whatever you want to call and blames someone else...no different than any other politician. Please don't put the blame squarely this administration.

Bush has worked with Kennedy on the education plan (a stupid thing to do in my opinion) and but does Ted get any of the blame...no only Bush. He went across the isle, and he got shot in the face (and back) for it. The current state of politics is nothing more than which party can be in control of everything. When the Dems took the House and Senate back and ever since they've tried to cut Bush off at the knees, getting nothing done.

Nothing got done when the Repubs held both houses of congress, because our President was too busy trying to out spend the Dems.

I think both parties are way off base, and could careless about me, just my vote, but since I'm in a "Red" state, my vote doesn't really matter either, someone else will discount my vote when I choose to vote 3rd party.

The difference is that I choose to hold people accountable for what they say and do. Bush is on his way out, so let's leave that discussion behind because it has no bearing on this campaign. He's done and said some stupid things, but he's also stepped up when the others would hide in the corner, sending their wives to fight their battles in the media.

Personally, I see no difference whether we get Obama or McCain or Clinton this November. None of them will get anything done because congress is too busy grandstanding over soundbite issues, feeding little gems of tripe-laced one liners to a headline reading populace.

To be honest, I don't see any difference in McCain 00 or 08, he's the same guy, just now GWB appears with him, but without the Tanya Harding lead pipe.

368 I'm willing to admit that it may possibly have been a slip on Obama's part, but given my experience and the general smarminess of polititicans it seems more like a grab for an emotional response to me.

You got it! That's why he saved it for the Q & A session rather than stick it right up front in a digestible sound bite. That crafty liar Obama. He was trained well in that maddrassa. I bet he was the 21st hijacker! None Dare Call It Conspiracy! Potatoes are involved!

369 p.s.: Kenneth, what's the frequency?

370 >>I'm disgusted with the current state of this country, and I put the blame squarely on the shoulders of this administration,

Of course you do.

>>but not because the president can't pronounce "nuclear".

No. Your reasons are deeper. Bush has violated the Geneva Conventions, spied on Americans, gone to war illegally, yada, yada. Heard it. Got the t-shirt.

>>Sadly, it's nearly impossible to have intelligent dialog about politics in this day and age

It is when you lead with the sheep bullshit. Do you even read this blog or did you just make some stupid assumption before saying that?

>>There is no understanding of the issues beyond the catchy headlines

I see. Only you understand the true issue, is that how it works?

>>I will gladly "own" Obama as my cadidate of choice, because I think he brings something different to the table.

What, pray tell would that be? A Chicago machine politician who then runs for President, completely packaged and sold by Axelrod, one of the highest paid and most duplicitous lobbyists in the country as something "special" when he is nothing more than a run of the mill far lefty with a more attractive wrapper, is something different? From what? He is nothing more than his voting record. Ted Kennedy without the triple chins and a better tan. Actually, maybe worse. Kennedy's an asshole but at least he has the sense not to have domestic terrorists in his camp.

>>I felt the same way about McCain in 2000 and was dismayed to see him get kneecapped by the Rove lead Bush campaign

Admittedly, McCain is a Washington insider who is a hawk but otherwise moderate to liberal. The R tag is just for show. I can see how an Obama supporter could be attracted to him save his stance on the war.

>>If he were they same man he appeared to be in 2000, I would feel we were in a win-win in November.

Don't fret. He is the same man. You are in a win win. We are finally getting a handle on Iraq and baring a tragic mistake by Maliki (admittedly, a possibility) Iraq will be stable enough in a year for the troops to start coming home. Something all of us want and both McCain and Obama and Bush for that matter have said they will do. Then we will have a hardcore lefty, Obama, as President, or center left President, McCain. You win either way. It's just the country that loses.

In the future, if you want an intelligent conversation about politics try not leading off by being an asshole or by assuming you somehow know something others of us don't.

371 I will gladly "own" Obama as my cadidate of choice, because I think he brings something different to the table.

Like what? He's got no accomplishments, no experience, no record of achievements. All he's got is some smooth rhetoric -- just as long as he's in front of a TelePrompter. That, and he's not a Clinton and he's not a Bush. There's some merit in that, I suppose, but I'd be interested in an argument that Obama is not an empty suit. So far, I haven't heard any.

372 I am in possession of a list of 72 great uncles who did not liberate Auschwitz and who support that Muslim, Barack Obama! None Dare Call It Conspiracy!

373 "No. Your reasons are deeper. Bush has violated the Geneva Conventions, spied on Americans, gone to war illegally, yada, yada. Heard it. Got the t-shirt."

Right - brush this all aside as lefty conspiracy or "nitpicking". It's clear you've already bought the t-shirt and drank the cool-aid. If you truly believe that Obama has domestic terrorists in his camp, or is secretly a Muslim, than intelligent debate is clearly not possible.

374 Bush has violated the Geneva Conventions, spied on Americans, gone to war illegally, yada, yada. Heard it. Got the t-shirt.

Wrong shirt. You need to get the one that says: "I invaded a country on a trumped-up lie, tortured their people in the name of freedom, spent a trillion bucks and wasted 4,000+ lives, and all I got was this stinkin' T-shirt, which is made in China!"

375

356 Ask 10 random college students if they've heard of Buchenwald, then ask them if they've heard of Auschwitz.  Report back with your results.  

Purple Avenger, see my sock-puppeted comment at 340.  Myself and 5 others, out of a starting class of about 60-65 had heard of Buchenwald.  We know this because the professor did a survey of the class.  12 of us had heard of the Warsaw Ghetto, but only 3 besides myself could give any explanation of the significance of it.  Everyone knew Auschwitz.

All of the undergrads were either history majors or integrated social studies majors, like myself.  About 1/2 the class were history grad students.

This was only about a year and a half ago.

376 was bill ayers selling girl scout cookies or part of a group that blew stuff up, like themselves creating a nail bomb? You are right, when we are intellectually dishonest, intelligent debate is not possible. Face it, your guy is nothing new...he just says nothing better than most. he can make you believe that nothing is change. he can make you believe that nothing smells good. he can make you believe that nothing will lower gas prices. he can make you believe that nothing will stop terrorism. he can make you believe that nothing works.

the truth is, that with obama, his nothing has been working for years.

Real easy, stop the debate, what has he done other than run for senate and win?

different? no, just a different nothing. sorry to burst your bubble WakeUp...he's a nothing done, nothing doing, nothing gonna do politician with nothing to offer.

377 I'm still hoping soneone, anyone, will ask the two candidates what they consider to be their signature political accomplishment so far.  With McCain I could hazard a guess but with the O, I have not a clue what his answer would be.

378 because I think he brings something different to the table.

A well developed broad based general cluelessness is hard to find these days.  Most people have at least a few things they understand in depth...even if its something esoteric like beer bottle cap collecting.

379 >>Right - brush this all aside as lefty conspiracy or "nitpicking"

Tell you what. You actually make the case that Bush has violated the Geneva Conventions, provide proof, evidence, rational reasoning, and I will listen. Mind you, I know what they say and I also understand who they do and do not cover. I also understand US law including Habeas Corpus and who it applies to. So do people far smarter than I how also read this and will shred your ass in a second if you aren't factual.

The second you resort to shrieking like a school girl or pretend feelings have anything to do with logic and fact and you lose. You fail to make the case, you lose. And when you fail to make the case, and you will, you will nevermore pretend that Obama is anything other than what I and others have said he is, a lying, far left empty suit and will not only stop with the absolute bullshit that Bush has broken any laws, you will go back to DU and tell all the idiots there that you have had an epiphany. That you have been a misguided sack of shit, spouting stupid crap about international law and other nonsense that you heard on Air America and actually know nothing about and that you were flat wrong. That you will sin no more and you hope that none of your fellow halfwits will either. That you hope that they will take a bath, move out of their parents basements and get real jobs that require merit and not applying to the latest poor me identity group for a handout.

Put up or shut up. Deal?

380 "I'm still hoping soneone, anyone, will ask the two candidates what they consider to be their signature political accomplishment so far.  With McCain I could hazard a guess but with the O, I have not a clue what his answer would be."

Being a black man who's running for President. After all, it's let Michelle finally be proud of her country, for the first time.

381 About 1/2 the class were history grad students...

I knew all of what you just mentioned as a high school freshman.  Obviously all of that was self taught at home because I had a keen interest in 20th century history and there were thousands of books around the house.  My own personal war history library in my bedroom put the high school library to shame.

I had a H/S history teacher give me an F on a paper once that I'd written about the Soviet's strategic retreat response to Barbarossa because he couldn't believe I'd written it myself and was convinced I'd swiped it from somewhere.  After straightening him out, I got an A.

382

There were many Charles Paynes in central Kansas, but his great-uncle is apparently named Charles W. Payne. The only two men named Charles W. Payne who joined in Kansas according to the Kansas rolls both enlisted in the Navy.

I dunno.  The two Ancestry trees that give Grandpa Stanley's brother a middle name list him as Charles Roland Payne (their father's name was Rolla).

OTOH, as somebody else posted, in the 1930 census the family's in Augusta, Butler Co., KS, and in the KS rolls there's a Charles E. inducted there 9 June 1943.

And there are currently both a Charles W. and Charles E (with the same birth year - 1925) at the same Wichita address. (Phone numbers available in that database, too.)

 

383 " The second you resort to shrieking like a school girl..."

LOL!! Typical that you don't see the irony of this statement when attached to a blog entry crying fowl because a candidate said Auschwitz instead of Buchenwald.

384 Well, it looks like the Messiah can't even claim showing up to work as a "political accomplishment".  This CNN story says he's big on the no-shows.

Of course that story was written back when Hillary was the presumptive nominee and the media wasn't fellating Obama yet.  I'm guessing such a story would never even have been written today.

385 >>Wrong shirt. You need to get the one that says: "I invaded a country on a trumped-up lie, tortured their people in the name of freedom, spent a trillion bucks and wasted 4,000+ lives, and all I got was this stinkin' T-shirt, which is made in China!"

Same deal for you. What lie? Prove it was a lie. Prove torture.

If you can't prove anything Bush said was a lie, in fact prove it was anything different than Bill or Hillary Clinton said, Tony Blair said, the intelligence community of any free country said, you will grow up, stop spewing bullshit you heard from bubble headed morons and sin no more.

Deal? Come on, you have a lot riding on saying Bush lied us into the war. You seem confident of it. Where's your proof?

Or are you a liar?

386 "Tell you what. You actually make the case that Bush has violated the Geneva Conventions, provide proof, evidence, rational reasoning, and I will listen. Mind you, I know what they say and I also understand who they do and do not cover. I also understand US law including Habeas Corpus and who it applies to. So do people far smarter than I how also read this and will shred your ass in a second if you aren't factual. " http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/11/09/judge_halts_legal_proceeding_at_guantanamo/ http://baltimorechronicle.com/geneva_feb02.shtml http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/11/AR2006071100094.html http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/14/opinion/14mon1.html George Bush approved the use of torture which is a violation of the Geneva convention. I'm not sure how more cut and dry this could be: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture

387 >>LOL!! Typical that you don't see the irony of this statement when attached to a blog entry crying fowl because a candidate said Auschwitz instead of Buchenwald.

Stop stalling. I'm not talking about this blog entry. You made a claim. Where's your proof?

Fowls are birds. Be precise. You wanted a serious discussion, you got one.

388 " The second you resort to shrieking like a school girl..." LOL!! Typical that you don't see the irony of this statement when attached to a blog entry crying fowl because a candidate said Auschwitz instead of Buchenwald." I agree with this poster. Your Republican nominee gets critical facts of the Iraq/Afghanistan war wrong all the time.

389

I was fortunate enough to have a good couple of history teachers in high school, so we at least got an overview of what is often considered to be 'side stuff' in most history classes.  Heck, I used my high school World Civ. notes in college World Civ. and had more info at hand there than the professor and his chosen text gave us.

That being said, a lot of my knowledge is self-taught too.  It's broken all of my roommates' minds that I read stuff like Histories, Caesar, and The Chronicle of Fulcher of Chartres just because I could.

As someone interested in teaching history, I have to say we need more people who collect libraries like you, PA.  Historical ignorance can lead to a lot of embarassing gaffes; like my 2nd roommat initially thinking 9/11 was pulled off by the Japanese.

390 "Typical that you don't see the irony of this statement when attached to a blog entry crying fowl because a candidate said Auschwitz instead of Buchenwald."

Typical that you ignore the many points that have been made regarding the import and potential ramifications of such a gaffe, let alone the minor fact that making such a gaffe at all, even were it unimportant, would be cause for ridicule were he of any grouping bar the one you support, case in point the Daily Kos has up an article that photoshops a small face onto McCains cheek and suggests it whispers Halliburton ploys to him How... progressive) and try to obfuscate the issue by correlating cries foul, that's with a u even if I am British and inordinately fond of them, with shrieks, displaying either a misunderstanding of the English language or just a base drive to make a shallow point at the expense of correctness.

And you didn't step up as challenged. The longer you don't pick up the glove, the more the genteel ladies here will titter at you from behind the lace handkerchiefs. Or the burlap, in lauraw's case.

391 JJ Frankin at May 27, 2008 10:08 PM (RerpN)

You expect me to read that shit? The Baltimore Chronicle, NYT and Wikipedia aren't sources.

You're out.

392 RerpN, what do you consider valid sources?

Blowing off the Wikipedia page is stupid because all it did was link to the Geneva conventions:

Here is another page about torture:

" Torture is forbidden by the Geneva Conventions, both in cases of internal conflicts (Convention I, Art. 3, Sec. 1A), wounded combatants (Convention I, Art. 12), civilians in occupied territories (Convention IV, Art. 32), civilians in international conflicts (Protocol I, Art. 75, Sec. 2Ai) and civilians in internal conflicts (Protocol II, Art. 4, Sec. 2A)."

393 >> JJ Frankin at May 27, 2008 10:19 PM (RerpN)

I know what the conventions say you halfwit. So what? Where is the proof that the Bush administration violated them?

Facts, not feelings. You are already out. I'm only addressing you in the hope that your abject failure will serve as a deterrent to other halfwits posting definitions that are already know without violations against them. In other words, you are the don't be this idiot.

Next.

394 " You expect me to read that shit? The Baltimore Chronicle, NYT and Wikipedia aren't sources.

You're out."

LOL! You have to give this guy a link to the Drudge report before he'll take it seriously!

You're comments are enough to paint a picture of where you fall on the political spectrum. I'd no sooner waste my breath in an "intelligent" debate with you as a I would a nut-job lefty claiming the US government was really behind 911. You're all out to lunch, and beyond rational discussion.

395 >>WakeUp at May 27, 2008 10:25 PM (Qx4n7)

I thought as much. You have no idea what you are talking about.

You have no idea where I fall on the political spectrum. I piss off a lot of people here with my positions and I disagree with theirs. Still, at least I respect most of their opinions because they back up their positions with something you are sorely lacking, facts.

You're out.

396 I suppose that he will claim that one of his anccestors went and captured 100 huns during WW I just like what SGT ALVIN YORK did

397

You're comments are enough to paint a picture of where you fall on the political spectrum. I'd no sooner waste my breath in an "intelligent" debate with you as a I would a nut-job lefty claiming the US government was really behind 911. You're all out to lunch, and beyond rational discussion.

The gods no longer will condescend to speak with mortal man! Terror of terrors!

398 JackStraw-

Exactly what is the point of getting in a debate where you simply claim any linked source I may provide is "shit". You were offered links to articles from the Boston Globe, Baltimore Chronicle, New York Times, and Washington Post. All of which you quickly dismissed without any consideration.

Debate on these terms is pointless. If you are ever in the Sacramento area, and would like to "put on the gloves" for real, look me up at Ultimate Fitness Mixed Martial Arts Training Center. We spar on Tuesdays and Fridays. It would be about as pointless as this discussion, but at least we'd have some fun. Winner buys the first round afterwards.

399 Anyone who refuses to debate because it's 'not worth their time' fails. Even should you have a case to present and defend, you fails because we refuse to believe you might, and in such a case, what other people think really does matter. It is utterly pointless to 'know you're right' if no-one else does. The entire point of a debate is to set out your ideas to try and convince the other side and defend your own. As in any conflict, you win if you're still viable at the end. You fail. You fail by not having a command of the language, you fail by not convincing us, you fail by not setting out your ideas, you fail by not proving you actually have a point to defend, and overall, you fail by not trying, which either proves you really don't have a point to present, or that you're the type of disreputable creep who shames all who value intellect of any type as a gift and talent, rather than some elitist mark of mental blue blood.

Go away failure. Having taken the time to engage you, I now no longer have any more breath to waste on you, having set out my points, engaged yours and defeated them. I am still viable. You re not. My victory. OUR, here at AoS, victory. And personally, it would have been more fun had it not been quite so simple and unoriginal.

400 "You were offered links to articles from the Boston Globe, Baltimore Chronicle, New York Times, and Washington Post. All of which you quickly dismissed without any consideration."

These are not sources of facts, these are sources of past falsehoods, blatant bias and at best, opinions spun to appear as facts. All news outlets are the same. Even the right-wing one...

Wikipedia is also unreliable for politically charged matters, as it's ability to be altered without review, credential or citation means anything can be posted as fact unless caught and corrected. Truth is subjective, facts aren't. News is subjective, wiki CAN BE subjective.

Facts aren't. You haven't provided any. If you do, you'll find they will be examined and addressed. Honest.

401 >>Exactly what is the point of getting in a debate where you simply claim any linked source I may provide is "shit"

This should be obvious but I will state it clearly so you can't make yourself some sort of martyr.

>>Right - brush this all aside as lefty conspiracy or "nitpicking". It's clear you've already bought the t-shirt and drank the cool-aid. If you truly believe that Obama has domestic terrorists in his camp, or is secretly a Muslim, than intelligent debate is clearly not possible.

I deal in facts. Ayers is a domestic terrorist, tried and convicted. Better, self-admitted. Where are your facts that Bush has violated any Americans rights, spied illegally on any American or done anything illegal? I asked you this in response to your snark a half hour ago and you have done nothing but stall.

Obama isn't a secret Muslim. He is was born and raised one and then left the faith. He is now a self-proclaimed member of a black liberation Christian church. None of these facts are in dispute. I find his current church at least as repugnant as the one he was born into. But then, I know a bunch of Muslims I respect. I can't say the same for any member of the black liberation theology. I could give a shit about most religions, the Lutherans and Episcopalians are pretty harmless save for the casseroles. The black liberation theology, not so much.

You, and all the lefty's I have ever met have tried to smear Bush and all Republicans with lies and half truths. The fact is, the Bush administration is not in violation of any of the Geneva Conventions, has not violated the rights of Americans and does not torture. I challenged you to say otherwise. You have not. Further, the Bush administration, for all their faults which are numerous, has done an outstanding job of protecting this country despite the actions of the left and their never ending whining about mythical rights violations.

You whine about the lack of intelligent discussion yet you fail to make one. Make one. I'm getting bored.

402 "These are not sources of facts, these are sources of past falsehoods, blatant bias and at best, opinions spun to appear as facts. All news outlets are the same. Even the right-wing one..."

...As is any written account, which again makes any "debate" here completely pointless. There is no way to present any piece of evidence as fact without the other party able to simple dismiss it as propaganda for the opposition.

I can just as easily turn the tables by asking you to "prove" that the Bush administration really went to war because they believed there were weapons of mass destruction. I can easily dismiss any material you provide as a right-wing snow job. I can then use excerpts from Richard Clark's book, or the Frontline documentary Bush's War to back my own argument, which you will summarily dismiss in kind.

I understand the need for some to engage in such "intellectual masturbation" as way to inflate their own egos. To me it seems a complete waste of time, and it's exactly this whole ritual that keeps me from being a regular reader/contributor to this or any other blog or message board.

Now I'm off to participate in my non-virtual life, but wish you all happy flogging.

403 As someone interested in teaching history, I have to say we need more people who collect libraries like you

What is interesting is to watch what is supposedly "fact" manage to morph over time and how the history (sometimes) self-corrects itself.  ex. For decades everyone "knew" that the Nazis did the Katyn forest massacre.  In recent years the opening of the KGB archives showed it was in fact the Soviets who did the massacre.

The ongoing debate about the Lusitania's cargo has been fascinating too.  Jeez, the books aren't even definitively closed on WWI and some people think they know all there is to know about Iraq after only a few years and virtually zero methodical scholarly review of existing Saddam era documents.  The hubris is breathtaking.

404

heh,  indeed PA.

The same could be said for news coverage, for that matter.  Just go look at articles about the Philippine Insurrection.  If you replaced "Philippine Islands" and "bananas/asian trade route" with "Iraq" and "oil/foothold in the middle east" respectively it'd be almost word for word from a modern newspaper.

Which is why I just kinda shake my head at the 'unwinnable Iraq' screamers.  We may gaff something up and make a hostile nation, but we may also get an ally for decades, maybe even a century or so, out of it like we have with the Filipinos.  We just won't know until we're down the road.

405

Its funny to see people trying to be smart asses and slam Obama for his ignorace on this subject, while they themselves make clear their own ignorance. Like this blog saying:

"Obama has rewritten WWII history such that the allies liberated Auschwitz."

Well, let me just tell you, Purple Avenger, that he wouldn't have to rewrite history for that,  because the allies did indeed liberate Auschwitz. In fact, the most important and strongest allied nation liberated it: the Soviet Union, which had a way bigger involvement in the war than the US did.

406 I'm still hoping soneone, anyone, will ask the two candidates what they consider to be their signature political accomplishment so far.  With McCain I could hazard a guess

Please do!

the absolute bullshit that Bush has broken any laws

The Nazis didn't break any laws. At least not their own. Bush, on the other hand, broke several treaties prohibiting torture. Treaties are the law of the land. Check your constitution for support.

the lefty's I have ever met have tried to smear Bush and all Republicans with lies and half truths

No need for that. The truth is quite enough.

What lie? Prove it was a lie. Prove torture.

Prove the Holocaust. As for torture, well, the torturers rarely call it torture.

I wouldn't call Ace's place a love McCain site...more a hold your nose and vote.

Once you're in bed with him, what does "love" got to do with it?

they choose to as to limit any damage that might be inflicted by poorly chosen words or phrases, like 57 states, my uncle who went into Auschwitz, we landed under heavy fire, shia or sunni, etc.

See how the wingnuts operate? They conflate innocent misstatements ("57 states" and the uncle at Auschwitz) with lies ("we landed under heavy fire"), and rank stupidity and/or senility ("shia or sunni"). As I wrote earlier, that's what this whole wingnut gambit is all about: to provide cover for a 71-year-old man, going on 90, who doesn't have a clue about the basic facts underlying the Iraq War.

Try as you might, nutcases, when your guy McBush has his Admiral Stockdale moment on national television, all the king's horses and all the king's rightwingnut men, won't be able to put John McBush back together again. Just wait.

407 It would seem that the fundraiser for Aceofspades's bedmate (but not lover) has been moved to a private home because demand is lacking. All hail the free market! I wonder if it has any connection to the FBI's interviewing of McCain's staffers in connection with yet another corruption investigation. No, couldn't be. Anyhow, back to Auschwitz. Better memories there.

408
"John McBush"

Finally, someone read the latest talking points.

JackStraw, if I've insulted you in the past I take it all back. You have my admiration and respect for the way you can argue with these children and keep your cool.

409

"The Nazis didn't break any laws. At least not their own. Bush, on the other hand, broke several treaties prohibiting torture."

In other words, Bushitler is unfair - to Hitler.  No that you have BDS or anything.

410 Well, let me just tell you, Purple Avenger...

So which part of "American Brigade" are you specifically having problems understanding again?  Or maybe you'd like to enlighten us about the "lost" American brigade that served with the Red Army and liberated Auschwitz

411 The Nazis didn't break any laws. At least not their own.

The Soviets probably had a different take on that...unless "non-aggression" means something different than what I've been lead to believe it does all these years.

412 They conflate innocent misstatements

They conflate ignorant innocent misstatements.  There fixed that for ya. 

Q: how many times in your life have you "misstated" the number of states in the union?  I'm guessing the number is vanishingly close to zero, but then again you're an Obama fan and they live in some sort of Harry Turtledove alternate reality.

413 The Nazis didn't break any laws.

Yes, the lefty's favorite...the Nazis. The fact that the Nazis killed 6 million people in a barbaric fashion is not such a big deal, because at least "they did not break a law". So according to you in the scheme of things McBush is worse. Man, I am glad you have no power because with your moralistic relativism we would all be dead or in death/work camps...You should change your handle to Robespierre.

Admiral Stockdale moment

Your not fit to utter that great man's name. You like most lefties probably have no idea what Stockdale went through for this country. But, then again you probably don't care either...Just make fun of the funny old man because he had to turn up a hearing aid...Robespierre says!. You want to talk about torture, why don't you go read that man's history...and then maybe you will realize that the McBush torture crap is just that...go read a book hippie.

414 The fact that the Nazis killed 6 million people in a barbaric fashion is not such a big deal, because at least "they did not break a law"

Suddenly, the wingnuts don't comprehend sarcasm

your moralistic relativism

Says the wingnut who's all for torture as long as his fuhrer is the one doing it

You like most lefties probably have no idea what Stockdale went through for this country

And now torture is bad again. What was that about "moralistic relativism?" Stockdale was a terrible candidate. Same for McBush, who, unlike Stockdale, betrayed his comrades in Hanoi and who has been a slimy, corrupt scumbag posing as a maverick while in the Senate. And he's a screaming old man with a 50/50 chance of breaking down on stage. He'd better bring his Depends to the debates. Diaper duty ought to be real fun for you wingnuts.

you will realize that the McBush torture crap is just that...go read a book hippie

Yup, it's all about the 1960s. Hey, you didn't tell me to get off your lawn!

415 how many times in your life have you "misstated" the number of states in the union?

You're right. It's very suspicious, but None Dare Call It Conspiracy

416 And he's a screaming old man with a 50/50 chance of breaking down on stage. He'd better bring his Depends to the debates. Diaper duty ought to be real fun for you wingnuts.

Okay, I am not sure how many times people are going to tell you this but this is not a pro-McCain site. So, put down the bong and listen. You chumping on McCain does nothing...nothing. No one cares. It is like shooting bullets at Superman here, okay.
What people here are trying to say to you is not that McCain is better then Obama, but that Obama is the empty shirt tool of the Soros puppet masters (oh, yes now you can accuse me of one of your beloved conspiracy theories...). But, it appears you cannot grasp that fact, probably because the talking point sheet that you have been given does not say that...sorry to throw you off script.

417 Says the wingnut who's all for torture as long as his fuhrer is the one doing it

When did I say I was for torture? Huh? The point I was trying to make is you lefties bring up Nazis when someone drops a hat to the point that you make what the Nazis did almost meaningless (who knows maybe that is your point...). Your types are always trying to equate anything you don't agree with to a terrible and awful point in history. Whether it is even close to magnitude or not...

418 I am not sure how many times people are going to tell you this but this is not a pro-McCain site.

Last time I looked, this site wants people to vote for him. That's pro-McBush. Just ask all the women who got pregnant but didn't love the guy.

419 Same for McBush, who, unlike Stockdale, betrayed his comrades in Hanoi...

How about you go fuck yourself.

420 Just ask all the women who got pregnant but didn't love the guy.

Talking point 15a, right?

421

Last time I looked, this site wants people to vote for him. That's pro-McBush.

Then you should change your name because your powers of observation suck.  The McCain supporters on this site are few and far between.  Even the owner of the site bangs on McCain constantly.

You're not even an average troll.

422 How about you go fuck yourself.

That would be better than if, like your presidential candidate, I saved my own ass in Hanoi while my comrades rotted. That's been McBush's M.O. throughout his life. Some "hero."

423 The McCain supporters on this site are few and far between.  Even the owner of the site bangs on McCain constantly.

The owner of this site is telling people to vote for McCain. Nothing else matters. You're either for him or you are against him, to coin a phrase.

424

So the uptake from this thread is that all us 'wingnuts' think that one man's stupidity is a conspiracy, we're all lock-step for McCain, and we all support torture.

That we point out multiple times that these points are false bears no notice.  The deciders on the left have decided our positions for us, and anything to the contrary is verboen.

Thanks lefty trolls, it's so clear now!

425 all us 'wingnuts' think that one man's stupidity is a conspiracy, we're all lock-step for McCain, and we all support torture

This website is telling people to vote for McBush. It called Obama's mistaken reference to Auschwitz rather than Buchenwald "one of his more egregious and easily demonstrated lies." It denies that the war criminal in the White House ordered the use of torture and then lied about it. And, in true wingnut fashion, it gets all pissy when called out for it.

Par for the course for you flakes. Well, that shit's going to end in November. Oh, you'll still be yammering, but you'll be doing it from the outside. McBush is going to get his sorry old ass kicked up one side of the block and back down the other. The public hates the Republican Party and wants to shoot the horse it rode in on. You crazies are in for an ass-kicking you won't soon forget. Just wait.

426

The owner of this site is telling people to vote for McCain. Nothing else matters. You're either for him or you are against him, to coin a phrase.

Yea, Ace is here everday telling everyone they must vote for McCain.  Seriously, have you ever been right about anything?

That would be better than if, like your presidential candidate, I saved my own ass in Hanoi while my comrades rotted. That's been McBush's M.O. throughout his life. Some "hero."

Ah, I see.  Swiftboating is fine when you do it to a Republican without a single witness or a shred of evidence.  Keep showing your true colors.

427 Ahh - I see the circle-jerk continues.

OK - What's the sheeple's take on this:

Former White House press secretary Scott McClellan writes in a new memoir that the Iraq war was sold to the American people with a sophisticated "political propaganda campaign" led by President Bush and aimed at "manipulating sources of public opinion" and "downplaying the major reason for going to war."

McClellan includes the charges in a 341-page book, "What Happened: Inside the Bush White House and Washington's Culture of Deception," that delivers a harsh look at the White House and the man he served for close to a decade. He describes Bush as demonstrating a "lack of inquisitiveness," says the White House operated in "permanent campaign" mode, and admits to having been deceived by some in the president's inner circle about the leak of a CIA operative's name.

Ex-Press Aide Writes That Bush Misled U.S. on Iraq.

So go ahead, spin it all away. Your Neocon house of cards is a tumblin' down.

428 "Uh-oh, no it doesn't! Now I am the premediated liar!"

No you're not, you're just a guy with a lot of attitude and not much knowledge to back it up.

429 ""I will gladly "own" Obama as my cadidate of choice, because I think he brings something different to the table."

Like what? He's got no accomplishments, no experience, no record of achievements. "

Maybe it's not what he brings to the table, but what he doesn't that makes him so appealing to less thinking among us.

430 Hey nutcases! Here's some more red meat for you! Film at 11! None Dare Call It Conspiracy!

431 "Ah, I see.  Swiftboating is fine when you do it to a Republican without a single witness or a shred of evidence.  Keep showing your true colors."

I'm sorry - but were was W during the Vietnam war? Where was Kerry during that same time?

http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp
link to Bush and Kerry's public service records, though I know you won't read them, as I'm sure your spin on this topic has been well rehearsed over the last 4 years.

Our sackless president hid away stateside in the ANG where his performance was mediocre at best. His lack of character has continued throughout his entire adult life as even now, while driving the economy and this country's military into the ground he (and his deluded followers) are unable to shoulder responsibility. For 6 years he was free to lead this country as he saw fit with a rubber stamp congress that conducted no oversight. He shoulders the blame.

As Truman put it "The buck stops here" only in this case, the buck is a steaming pile of excrement which is the fruit of W's labors.

432

Just wait.

Heh.  The fire next time.

433 " Maybe it's not what he brings to the table, but what he doesn't that makes him so appealing to less thinking among us."

Right - because the last 7 years of Neocon rule has shown what a "thoughtful" bunch you all are. 

434 Poor shithead only gives speeches to people who are required to applaud. What a coward.

435 This blog post is about absolutely nothing... way to go. BTW what is the deal with all the right wing blogs having mega shitty layout? Also, don't forget Obama is a terrorist, has tea with osama at least once a week, and hates america because he doesn't wear his american flag pin.

436 The blog post is about absolutely nothing because the people who create them know absolutely nothing about issues that affect this whole damed country and would rather effing navel gaze about useless pieces of shit "issues".

After giving Bush a blow job for all these past years, what did you expect?  Real reporting?

437 The point is what has obama done....all your side can do is point to Bush...but what about obama? Has he done anything of substance? Not really.

438 I'm still planning on voting for Obama at the moment.  I think he'll be very entertaining. 

439 Sorry but the Russians were part of the allied forces in World War II.  The Allies were any power that opposed the Axis powers.  So before going off on a misstatement by Obama clean up your own misstatements.

440 This blog post is about absolutely nothing... way to go.

Which of course is why the Obama campaign felt compelled to issue a clarification, right?

441 The Allies were any power that opposed the Axis powers.

You mean like when the Soviets gave Poland to the Nazis? 

442

I am sick of the slanderous comments directed at the bong. Look, you pathetic, scared little emotional and intellectual infants; the bong doesn't prevent anyone from listening or hearing. That is much more easily accomplished with talking points and rhetoric. So stop bad mouthing the bong. It is a much safer way to smoke any substance than a cigarette or pipe. You can use the really good ones as a vase.

Oh and it was his GREAT UNCLE, and Obama called it auchwitz when it was in fact Buchenwald or precicely Ohrdruf. The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum says on April 4, 1945, the 89th overran Ohrdruf, a subcamp of the Buchenwald concentration camp. Ohrdruf was the first Nazi concentration camp liberated by U.S. troops in Germany...

So just keep on trying to make Americans afraid of the lying black man...but leave the bong out of this one, okay?

443

Obama's great uncle was not involved in the liberation of any camp. He aws in the NAVY.

 

Charles W. Payne, born 1924, enlisted 10Nov42, Navy, 6293977 Registered, order #12019, Kansas City, Wyandotte Co., Board #4

444

Obama's great uncle was in the NAVY.

Charles W. Payne, born 1924, enlisted 10Nov42, Navy, 6293977 Registered, order #12019, Kansas City, Wyandotte Co., Board #4

445

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mmci9nTuCkg

 

Obama's great uncle was in the NAVY.

Charles W. Payne, born 1924, enlisted 10Nov42, Navy, 6293977 Registered, order #12019, Kansas City, Wyandotte Co., Board #4

 

446 This web site was created by WWII veteran of the 89th Infantry Division, which liberated Ohdruf, a sub-camp of Buchenwald:

http://www.89infdivww2.org/index.htm

Read the first paragraph. So all you nitwits know better than a veteran who was actually there?

And "BibleTruth", the guy in the YouTube video above needs to double-check his geneaology. The Charles Payne who served in the 89th and who was Obama's great-uncle was Charles T. Payne or C.T. Payne, as the 89th Infantry web site clearly states.

At the very worst, Obama got the name of the particular camp wrong.

You right-wing fanatics will make a mountain of BS out any molehill, so terrified are you of the change that is coming in '08 and so devastated are you at what your favored politicians' policies have wrought in this country.

This is an absurd non-story.

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"I was quite surprised when the whole thing came up and Barack talked about my war experiences in Nazi Germany. We had never talked about that before," he said, adding that he enjoyed a "warm and friendly relationship" with his great nephew, though he was not part of his inner circle.

The first time they discussed his participation in the war was when Mr Obama wrongly said during the campaign that Mr Payne had "liberated" Auschwitz. Opponents swiftly pointed out that had been done by the Red Army.

"He couldn't have gotten it from me since we had never talked about this particular episode in the war," he said. "My sister and her husband were both great storytellers and sometimes made up the details to go along with it. They told him about my deployment with the 89th Infantry Division and apparently they mixed up a few details."


Obama didn't just "misspeak by getting the camp wrong"; he has been milking Liberating Auschwitz By Proxy since at least October 2002:

http://www.barackobama.com/2002/10/02/remarks_of_illinois_state_sen.php

"My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton's army. He saw the dead and dying across the fields of Europe; he heard the stories of fellow troops who first entered Auschwitz and Treblinka.

He fought in the name of a larger freedom, part of that arsenal of democracy that triumphed over evil, and he did not fight in vain. I don't oppose all wars."

Recognize the speech, the only thing on which his foreign policy bona fides have stood on for seven years?

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