McCain Rejects And Denounces Rev. Hagee
Kind of inevitable after the whole "Hitler was a hunter" thing.
And making lemonade out lemons, McCain uses his statement to remind people about Obma and Wright.Obviously, I find these remarks and others deeply offensive and indefensible, and I repudiate them. I did not know of them before Reverend Hagee's endorsement, and I feel I must reject his endorsement as well. I have said I do not believe Sen. Obama shares Reverend Wright's extreme views. But let me also be clear, Reverend Hagee was not and is not my pastor or spiritual adviser, and I did not attend his church for twenty years. I have denounced statements he made immediately upon learning of them, as I do again todayIs Hagee really a big deal in evangelical circles? Personally, I wouldn't recognize the guy if I ran him over on the street but as a lapsed Papist I am not in the demo he was supposed to help with. More importantly (or frighteningly), does this make it more necessary or likely for McCain to put Huckabee on the ticket?
Comments
I'm no fan of Hagee's, but the last time I checked, he didn't leave a girl to drown after driving his car into the bay.
Posted by: Bart at May 22, 2008 04:47 PM (abB+G)
Hitler was an author.
Obama is an author.
Hillary is an author.
McCain wrote a book, too.
Hell, even Markos, Amanda Marcotte, Glenn Greenwald, and Matthew Yglesias are published authors.
Ace? Never been published. Allah? Him, too.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Ace/Allah: 2008 - They're Not Hitler
-------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by: BumperStickerist at May 22, 2008 04:48 PM (UeP9e)
Posted by: Dirk at May 22, 2008 04:49 PM (AJx67)
I don't see McCain putting Huckabee anywhere on his ticket.
Romney is the leading choice from what Nixon hears. But former Maryland Lt. Gov. Steele, now he is a real Conservative. McCain-Steele 08, sounds better than McCain - anyone else 08.
Posted by: Dick Nixon at May 22, 2008 04:51 PM (kaOJx)
Reverend Hagee was not and is not my pastor or spiritual adviser, and I did not attend his church for twenty years
Gutsiest move I've seen yet, Maverick
Posted by: Andy at May 22, 2008 04:52 PM (C3mTI)
Posted by: rinseandspit at May 22, 2008 04:53 PM (ao5cQ)
Steele seems like an impressive guy and he got a raw deal in his Senate race but doesn't he have to do something else before we can even think about him for the national ticket?
I mean there are a lot of one term former Lt. Governors out there. It seems running Steele would be a pander too far.
Posted by: DrewM. at May 22, 2008 04:55 PM (hlYel)
Posted by: Dave in Texas at May 22, 2008 04:57 PM (pzen5)
Posted by: XBradTC at May 22, 2008 04:59 PM (elwp+)
Posted by: Amy P at May 22, 2008 05:13 PM (B36Ui)
Posted by: Dr. Remulak at May 22, 2008 05:20 PM (YmPwQ)
Eh. Pandering still seems to resonate. As does porking up bills, kissing babies, and gerrying manders. The classics never die.
The problem is that Steele is a conservative even though he is clean and articulate. Naturally, that makes him an Uncle Tom unworthy of support from certain quarters... aka Liberals (even the brown kind).
I think Steele would be a good, perhaps great option for VP; ergo, he will not be chosen. Which is just as well as it could help him tag-team with another conservative in 2012 after ObamaChrist purges racism and heals us all.
Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at May 22, 2008 05:21 PM (Uy68a)
Posted by: Joel Osteen at May 22, 2008 05:25 PM (KTgUG)
Preachers are different animals than politicians. They are never going to be politically correct. The Bible is full of strange and shocking things.
I think anybody who has had any sort of religious conviction has reached a point at some time in their lives where they came to an uncomfortable or shocking conclusion, either in error, ignorance, or righteousness.
I don't care what Wright thinks. I don't care what Hagee thinks. It's childish to make people apologize for the unpopular views of people they know.
Posted by: BT at May 22, 2008 05:34 PM (l6TZE)
With the many thousands of perfectly respectable pastors in America, what on Earth possessed McCain to suck up to this moron Hagee???
Posted by: Dennis M at May 22, 2008 05:34 PM (+8WsU)
I suppose one could point out that the Bible even describes Nebuchadnezzar as doing God’s work by chastising the people of Israel. That was the parallel that immediately leaped to mind for me — but most folks wouldn’t see past the initial shock to get at the meat of the issue.
Not that I disagree with the decision to dump Hagee — if only because of his negative PR value.
Posted by: Rhymes Wih Right at May 22, 2008 05:40 PM (FmlkW)
His description of Hitler being God's tool is, or was, standard "eschatology", or end-times philosophizing among evangelical intellectuals. This particular conclusion is not one I've seen, but the founding of Israel is common fodder for them. Ironically, he was quoting from the Book of Jeremiah (the one in the Bible, not Obama's mentor).
And what he said, which HuffPo quoted, was not antisemitic in the slightest, if you believe as Hagee does that God is in control of history. He said the Jews had been called to Israel, which is what God wanted, but only a few came; those who didn't were decimated by Hitler, whom Hagee says was prophesied by Jeremiah. Then they formed Israel, which is what God wanted.
It's easy to draw from that the implication that the Jews somehow deserved the Holocaust, which of course you're not allowed to believe, no matter how big a fan of Israel you are.
Posted by: Loren Heal at May 22, 2008 05:55 PM (AyPvz)
Far be it from me to come out and defend a nutbar like Hagee, but when he was speaking of "Hitler as Hunter" he was not trying to glorify or defend Hitler...he was speaking of God's will or divine providence. God allowed the Holocaust to happen in order to herd the Jews back to their promised land.
He likes to look at scripture and apply it to modern events, like he does with "The whore of Babylon" = Catholic church.
Okay sure, it's obnoxious, but not in the same league as reverend Wright.
Also, Reverend Wright recently made his peace with Catholics with a big apology a couple of weeks ago.
That said, it's good that McCain finally rejected his endorsement because the fightin' fightin' nutroots weren't gonna let it lie---not as long as the Reverend Wright story was out there (which ain't going away).
This albatross has been effectively neutralized.
Posted by: Nice Deb at May 22, 2008 06:09 PM (7TjSG)
Hagee proposed the theory that "anti-Semitism, and thus the Holocaust, was the fault of Jews themselves -- the result of an age old divine curse incurred by the ancient Hebrews through worshiping idols and passed, down the ages, to all Jews now alive."
Posted by: Hongqi at May 22, 2008 06:19 PM (+WuMm)
He would gain some votes, but from people he could probably get at a lower price.
Giuliani/Thompson... I'd love to see them, but how many were going to vote Obama or stay at home and now is going to vote Mccain if he goes this route?
Mccain has a real opportunity, and it's sadly obvious. A woman that isn't too offensive to the feminists and isn't too offensive to the conservatives.
Harriet Miers! Not really, but Kay Bailey Hutchinson would be pretty good. Liz Dole would be a bit less exciting. Condi is not possible.
Mccain can really but Obama on the defensive. Many women really do believe that Obama's campaign was sexist as hell. Some of them think Mccain is at least tolerable. And I guarantee at least a several percentage hit on Obama, if in turnout alone, if Mccain is seen as teh better champion of women's lib.
I hate this kind of ID politics. It's disgusting to look at a person's skin or genital and decide if they are a good leader. But Mccain has this powerful weapon if he picks a decent woman. Obama's Ron Paul faction will not be able to resist vicious assaults on her sex (mccain's supporters are generally being great about not attacking Obama's race, of course, but liberals are so less careful).
Posted by: gohuckyourself at May 22, 2008 06:28 PM (8jYMc)
Posted by: Cybrludite at May 22, 2008 06:31 PM (IuGs7)
Posted by: Jack Aubry at May 22, 2008 06:37 PM (7365r)
Posted by: runninrebel at May 22, 2008 06:41 PM (0n9wc)
Given his distaste for conservatives, if he where to go the female route I figure he'd just go ahead and pick his good friend Ted Kennedy's wife. Because, she's smart. And politically smart.
And then he'd tell us all we were misogynists for vowing not to vote for him.
Posted by: krakatoa at May 22, 2008 06:52 PM (/FUhT)
I think that Hagee's anti-Catholic commentary was just as offensive, if not much more offensive, than his comments about Israel (which basically are consistent with OT prophetic messages).
On the other hand, Hagee's ideas about Catholics.... those were way off the deep end. But then, I'm a Catholic, and I am used to mainstream society denigrating and mocking Catholics. Maybe Catholic bashing is "tolerable."
Posted by: BT at May 22, 2008 06:55 PM (l6TZE)
http://www.aipac.org/2785_2859.asp
Pamela Geller of Atlas Shrugs posted a version of the speech with her giving commentary. It's also on YouTube, but the comments are anti-religious / anti-zionist / anti-Israel crap, with a little fake-sounding "how dare you side with the Jews" Fundamentalism tossed in.
Anyway, I found the speech thrilling and quite brave. It sounded like a threat pointed right at Islamofascists, saying that Christians and Jews will unite against any attempt to destroy Israel. Could you cherry-pick this speech and find quotes to elicit a knee-jerk "this guy's a crank" response? Sure, but only if you have an agenda, or if you're susceptible to MSM manipulation.
I saw a lot of this during the GOP primaries, where a Huckabee win would cause a lot of rancor about evangelicals screwing up the process. My guess is that the left performed Operation Chaos on the GOP primaries, long before Rush retaliated, and they probably got a chuckle out of conservatives finger-pointing and blaming each other.
Watching conservatives of different stripes bash each other hints that the Right is too fractured to coalesce enough to win, and that is dispiriting, indeed.
Posted by: anopensecret at May 22, 2008 06:56 PM (3pzDu)
Conservative Baptists don't like Huckabee, so putting him on the ticket doesn't cement much with conservative Christians.
After the "waving a gun at Obama" er "joke" I don't think we need to worry about Huckabee any more.
Posted by: funky chicken at May 22, 2008 07:22 PM (I+jPP)
Posted by: Mikey NTH at May 22, 2008 07:30 PM (TUWci)
Posted by: SuprKufr at May 22, 2008 07:35 PM (fBKDX)
Hagee proposed the theory that "anti-Semitism, and thus the Holocaust, was the fault of Jews themselves -- the result of an age old divine curse incurred by the ancient Hebrews through worshiping idols and passed, down the ages, to all Jews now alive."
Is that supposed to be earth shattering? It's just more of that application of past biblical events to modern times I was talking about.
There's no doubt that he's an obnoxious crank. But I don't think he views himself as anti-semetic or anti-Catholic. He's just thinks he's interpreting the bible.
Posted by: Nice Deb at May 22, 2008 07:44 PM (7TjSG)
FOr a christian minister to say something that could even remotely be construed as favorable re: the holocaust is idiotic beyond belief
So either the guy is a closet anti-semite, or a total fucking buffoon
Posted by: TMF at May 22, 2008 07:48 PM (/YM8H)
Posted by: Nice Deb at May 22, 2008 08:02 PM (7TjSG)
Perhaps not to you but to suggest that around 6 million people were killed to "herd" them back to back to their homeland is...at least to me.
Not sure how anyone can justify these comments, even if they try to frame it in the "application of past biblical events to modern times."
An obnoxious crank? That is the old dude who lives about three doors down who doesn't like the kids running through his yard.
Posted by: Hongqi at May 22, 2008 08:03 PM (+WuMm)
But I am highly amused by the notion that the MSM and the liberals (but I repeat myself) are offended by anti-Catholicism: it's like seeing Ted Kennedy denounce drunk driving.
Posted by: Brown Line at May 22, 2008 08:03 PM (WXQ4x)
Posted by: OregonMuse at May 22, 2008 08:07 PM (jyo/c)
On the other hand McCain in Silicon Valley on May 22, 2008, i.e. today.
“Senator Kennedy and I tried very hard to get immigration reform, a comprehensive plan, through the Congress of the United States,” he said. “It is a federal responsibility and because of our failure as a federal obligation, we’re seeing all these various conflicts and problems throughout our nation as different towns, cities, counties, whatever they are, implement different policies and different programs which makes things even worse and even more confusing.”
He added: “I believe we have to secure our borders, and I think most Americans agree with that, because it’s a matter of national security. But we must enact comprehensive immigration reform. We must make it a top agenda item if we don’t do it before, and we probably won’t, a little straight talk, as of January 2009.”
http://http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/22/mccain-says-immigration-reform-should-be-top-priority/
Posted by: memomachine at May 22, 2008 08:11 PM (XlmYx)
You know I program computers for a living and that damn hyperlink window confuses the hell out of me.
Posted by: memomachine at May 22, 2008 08:11 PM (XlmYx)
My point is pretty basic:
If McCain is talking about working on comprehensive immigration reform, i.e. amnesty, as of January 2009 then where the fuck is the fence? How are the borders going to be secure?
So. I guess we can all agree that the whole "I heard" and "secure borders" were total bullshit.
Posted by: memomachine at May 22, 2008 08:29 PM (XlmYx)
Posted by: John Galt at May 22, 2008 09:15 PM (SDkq3)
Republicans saying nice things about Ted Kennedy are showing class. Yeah, he's a powerful instigator of policies we hate, but the nation is too divided right now with partisan sickness, and Mccain is doing a good thing is showing Kennedy some sympathy.
Immigration is not a black and white issue. Anyone who doesn't get that is a fucking idiot. It will be impossible to fix, and a fence wouldn't be enough or even a decent start.
Yeah, I'd still like to see one, but Mccain has said he'd go for enforcement first, as a compromise with you and me who called him out on his bullshit last year. From what I've seen, Mccain keeps his word, and he's a much better leader than Obama on this or most issues. We've got to comprimise too. And when you say you aren't willing to on immigration, guess what? That's why nothing has been accomplished on that front for so long.
Posted by: gohuckyourself at May 22, 2008 09:20 PM (8jYMc)
First (#3
: Yes. That total bullshit thing.Second (#37), and more importantly: What computer company would that be because, um, I think I'll try out the competition for a while.
Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at May 22, 2008 09:21 PM (Uy68a)
Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at May 22, 2008 09:23 PM (Uy68a)
Again?
Is Hagee really a big deal in evangelical circles?
Never heard of him until the news started yakking about him. Maybe I run in the wrong circles.
Incidentally, if God is sovereign and all powerful, everything that happens is according to His plan. This isn't odd or particularly new.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 22, 2008 09:27 PM (7QZfU)
Polite golf-clap (yea,yea)
Posted by: Hongqi at May 22, 2008 09:31 PM (+WuMm)
@ gohuckyourself
"Yeah, I'd still like to see one, but Mccain has said he'd go for enforcement first, as a compromise with you and me who called him out on his bullshit last year. From what I've seen, Mccain keeps his word, and he's a much better leader than Obama on this or most issues. We've got to comprimise too. And when you say you aren't willing to on immigration, guess what? That's why nothing has been accomplished on that front for so long."
Let me try the easy version.
1. McCain said in a speech today that he plans on implementing Comprehensive Immigration Reform on or before "January 2009".
2. McCain, if elected President, won't be inaugurated until January 20, 2009.
3. I suggest it will take more than 10 days to *secure the borders*.
4. The expected progression, from what McCain said until this latest walkback, was:
4.a. Secure borders
4.b. Immigration reform
sooooooo.
Why don't you explain how McCain is going to secure the borders *after* having pass his new version of Comprehensive Immigration Reform and how that's a good thing.
Posted by: memomachine at May 22, 2008 09:42 PM (XlmYx)
Posted by: runninrebel at May 22, 2008 09:58 PM (oV92E)
Posted by: Hongqi at May 22, 2008 10:04 PM (+WuMm)
Posted by: Hongqi at May 22, 2008 10:07 PM (+WuMm)
@ runninrebel
"Securing the border would be the trigger to the other provisions in the bill. That's what makes it "comprehensive". It's not that hard a concept. The devil is in the details, of course, so it will be important to get him to flesh that out in the general. He talks about having the governors certify that their borders are secure, but how that would work needs to be discussed as well."
So let me get this straight. You're telling me that McCain is planning on passing a Comprehensive Amnesty that *cannot* take effect until the border is secure?
1. Where did McCain ever say this?
2. McCain's definition of "secure the borders" is when the governors of the border states report that the borders are "secure". I.e. not when they are *actually secure* but when the governors *report* that they are secure.
For whatever definition of "secure" that applies.
3. I think you're full of it. I don't for one single moment see McCain passing an amnesty right after getting inaugurated and not having it take effect immediately.
Posted by: memomachine at May 22, 2008 10:09 PM (XlmYx)
So hoping it is Huck or Lieberman...that would be fancy!
Posted by: Hongqi at May 22, 2008 10:20 PM (+WuMm)
Seriously, triggers aren't a newfangled thing.
#1 He hasn't talked about triggers yet and I doubt he will until the time is right for the debate and he has a new bill. But he did pledged to secure the borders first (which, by the way, should include many of the provisions that will help us finally get a handle on illegal immigration: tamper proof IDs, Visa reforms, ICE raids and workplace enforcement, fencing, temporary work programs for targeted industries, etc) while not changing his general philosophy about amnesty.
#2 That's why the devil is in the details and we'll find out when he comes out with the new bill.
#3 I don't care.
Posted by: runninrebel at May 22, 2008 10:24 PM (oV92E)
Hell, your word is good enough here, if you say that is what is on his mind...no man can dispute it.
Posted by: Hongqi at May 22, 2008 10:32 PM (+WuMm)
-Runnin
Posted by: Hongqi at May 22, 2008 10:36 PM (+WuMm)
Posted by: Hongqi at May 22, 2008 10:40 PM (+WuMm)
Posted by: runninrebel at May 22, 2008 10:43 PM (oV92E)
Posted by: Hongqi at May 22, 2008 10:45 PM (+WuMm)
Any moron with a fax machine and a P.O Box can become "the voice of the Christian Right".
Just send your missive to the right MSM sources and you'll be the second lead on Page A2 or the second commercial break: "Christian Group Condemns ______".
I seriously had never heard of this Hagee dude until McCain's opponents brought him up, and I have run with some fairly religously conservative folks.
Posted by: Techie at May 22, 2008 10:48 PM (pEZLi)
I don't see why that particular quote is an Ah-ha! moment for you.
Posted by: runninrebel at May 22, 2008 10:50 PM (oV92E)
Posted by: Hongqi at May 22, 2008 10:52 PM (+WuMm)
Posted by: runninrebel at May 22, 2008 11:06 PM (oV92E)
Posted by: runninrebel at May 22, 2008 11:07 PM (oV92E)
@ runninrebel
" #1 He hasn't talked about triggers yet and I doubt he will until the time is right for the debate and he has a new bill. But he did pledged to secure the borders first (which, by the way, should include many of the provisions that will help us finally get a handle on illegal immigration: tamper proof IDs, Visa reforms, ICE raids and workplace enforcement, fencing, temporary work programs for targeted industries, etc) while not changing his general philosophy about amnesty."
1. He hasn't talked about "triggers" because he has no intention of including them.
2. He pledged to secure the borders. But he also just today pledged to pass a new Comprehensive Amnesty in January 2009! So why don't you explain how McCain is going to *both* pass a new Comprehensive Amnesty in January 2009 *and* secure the borders *before* passing a new Comprehensive Amnesty? He only becomes President in January 20, 2009. So he's got 9-10 days to secure the borders?
Is that really secure borders or totally faked "secure" borders?
3. When has McCain talked about "tamper proof IDs, Visa reforms, ICE raids and workplace enforcement, fencing"? He has, on the other hand, talked about "temporary work programs" much to his discredit.
Posted by: memomachine at May 22, 2008 11:10 PM (XlmYx)
However, McCain is open-borders, so whoever makes it here gets to stay. No matter what.
Posted by: Hongqi at May 22, 2008 11:10 PM (+WuMm)
-cough-
Posted by: Hongqi at May 22, 2008 11:16 PM (+WuMm)
1. We'll see.
2. I'm really not interested in explaining to you how legislative triggers work.
3. Well, if you tried listening to him without screaming you would here it. He talks about all of these types of measures all the time. Many of them were in the first bill they just weren't used as triggers. I think he talked about them the last time he was on Bill O too.
Posted by: runninrebel at May 22, 2008 11:19 PM (oV92E)
MM is really good with this stuff. Do you like her runnin?
Posted by: Hongqi at May 22, 2008 11:23 PM (+WuMm)
Ah, I see. You're under the impression the debate is between open-borders and total deportation. Sorry disappoint you but that's not the way things work. Most people know the difference between lawbreakers and criminals, and they don't consider illegal immigrants criminals.
I suspect that in the end, after all of the enforcement measures make a large amount of illegals self-deport, we will have about a third or a half of the current population that we want to keep. Citizenship is a whole other issue.
I'm much more interested in building a system that gives us control of immigration for once.
MM? I don't read her much. She's a little too emotional for my tastes. She's pretty hot though. I went through a Filipina girl phase in High School.
Posted by: runninrebel at May 22, 2008 11:27 PM (oV92E)
Memomachine, thank you for another great threadjacking. Even though we know every fucking reason why you hate McCain, you feel that you must always tell us all over (and over) again whenever he is included in a post. BTW, don't call me a McCain lover. He wasn't even my 3rd choice on the Republican side.
Back on topic:
I have been an evangelical for 20+ years, and I can say that Hagee is an outlier. I'm as big a prophecy nut as anyone, but I have never read any of his stuff, and when I accidentally encounter him while channel surfing, he is gone quickly. For real fun with prophecy you must watch Jack Van Impe and his wife Rexella (yes, that's her name). They are kind of goofy in personality, but I line up with most of what they believe.
Posted by: John F Not Kerry at May 22, 2008 11:33 PM (HF2US)
2) I suspect...means I don't have a clue.
3) I'm much more interested...you are not the candidate.
4) I'm sure the Filipina girls appreciated your phase as you went through them...very nice.
Posted by: Hongqi at May 22, 2008 11:34 PM (+WuMm)
3. When has McCain talked about "tamper proof IDs, Visa reforms, ICE raids and workplace enforcement, fencing"? He has, on the other hand, talked about "temporary work programs" much to his discredit.
And anyone who says anything about a temporary work program without changing birthright citizenship is full of shit right off the bat. They've got one thing on the mind, and that isn't enforcing the 'temporary' part.
Posted by: MlR at May 22, 2008 11:35 PM (N7h3D)
So, what do these "goofy" people believe?
Posted by: Hongqi at May 22, 2008 11:42 PM (+WuMm)
No I didn't, I want to go to Heavan. And 99.5% of Americans didn't either, and they are equally uninterested in using legal definitions in place of common definition. They understand a "criminal" to mean a person who regularly engages in crime for crime sake. And they understand a lawbreaker to be a person that breaks laws though ignorance, on accident, or under duress.
2) I suspect...means I don't have a clue.
No, it means I have an analysis of the political situation and a likely outcome based on that. It also means that memo and I reached the end of discussion on that particular issue.
3) I'm much more interested...you are not the candidate.
I don't really get what you mean here. Are you saying that you are interested in explaining to memo what legislative triggers are? Or does it mean that you think McCain should? Because I agree with the second. The first is up to you.
4) I'm sure the Filipina girls appreciated your phase as you went through them...very nice.
I like to think so. They were fun to date but a little too 'crazy' for me.
Posted by: runninrebel at May 22, 2008 11:47 PM (oV92E)
Hongqi,
They are goofy only in personality. They are pretty much conventional pre-trib, pre-millenial. They like to highlight news from around the world and how certain aspects (EU one currency, microchip implants, Jewish Temple progress) indicate we might be close. In the end, they stick close to Jesus and salvation, which makes them a lot more tolerable to watch than some feelgooders out there (calling Joel Osteen). Rexella must have been a fox in her younger days. She still looks pretty good now.
Posted by: John F Not Kerry at May 22, 2008 11:49 PM (HF2US)
@ John F Not Kerry
"Memomachine, thank you for another great threadjacking. Even though we know every fucking reason why you hate McCain, you feel that you must always tell us all over (and over) again whenever he is included in a post. BTW, don't call me a McCain lover. He wasn't even my 3rd choice on the Republican side."
1. I have never called you a "McCain lover". Frankly the mental images are making me ill.
2. You're welcome for the threadjacking.
3. Who cares if McCain denounced Hagee. He denounced Hagee 1.5 months ago. As far as I know McCain regularly denounces Hagee. Maybe there's a set schedule where McCain gets up and one of his aides comes in and says "You're set to denounce Hagee again at 11:30am".
4. McCain reversing himself on Comprehensive Amnesty is a rather bigger deal than McCain denouncing Hagee for the second time.
Posted by: memomachine at May 22, 2008 11:51 PM (XlmYx)
Posted by: runninrebel at May 22, 2008 11:55 PM (oV92E)
@ runninrebel
"1. We'll see."
Yeah we will. Based on McCain's past behavior, as shown by today's example, I'm rather more certain of my position than you are of yours.
When it comes to John McCain fucking conservatives, the odds are considerably better than the lottery.
"2. I'm really not interested in explaining to you how legislative triggers work. "
Good because I already know how they work. And I'm not buying that McCain would actually let himself be limited by any system of triggers.
Now a system of triggers that are totally meaningless and are in place only to placate and deceive conservatives. THAT I buy.
"3. Well, if you tried listening to him without screaming you would here it. He talks about all of these types of measures all the time. Many of them were in the first bill they just weren't used as triggers. I think he talked about them the last time he was on Bill O too."
Just an FYI. I don't scream when I read or watch TV. So the whole "listening to him without screaming" thing doesn't apply.
As for the "tamper proof IDs, Visa reforms, ICE raids and workplace enforcement, fencing" I'd suggest that they were completely meaningless since the Comprehensive Amnesty would've gone ahead without any impact from them.
How precisely would "tamper proof IDs" have accomplished anything when every illegal alien would've been eligible for their own legal ids?
How precisely would "Visa reforms" meant anything when nobody would've needed visa to come and stay in the USA due to the provisions in the Comprehensive Amnesty?
How precisely would "workplace enforcement" work when every single illegal alien has both proper documentation *and* the legal right to be in the USA and employed?
So you've just made my argument for me. These provisions were in place merely to placate and deceive conservatives into thinking McCain wasn't a jackass.
Posted by: memomachine at May 23, 2008 12:02 AM (XlmYx)
2) Explain how you determine we will have 1/3 or 1/2 of the people we want to keep? You just pulled numbers out of think air...not analysis. Or, you have no idea what analysis means.
3) What does it matter what you want, we are talking about McCain. I want ice cream...who cares.
4) You like to think they enjoyed you going through them but in the end they were too crazy. I don't even want to explain how that makes you look.
Posted by: Hongqi at May 23, 2008 12:04 AM (+WuMm)
Posted by: Techie at May 23, 2008 12:09 AM (pEZLi)
But your other questions apply to the McCain-Kennedy Bill when the enforcement measures weren't triggers. I don't know what effect they would have had on the current crop of immigrants, but as I said, I'm more interested in getting fool proof immigration enforcement in place for the future than deporting every illegal that is in the country now. And I didn't read that bill too closely because I wanted nothing to do with it.
That's why it's important to see what the next bill looks like.
Posted by: runninrebel at May 23, 2008 12:11 AM (oV92E)
No. It doesn't. "Criminal" has a connotation to it that people apply selectively. Deny it all you want but referring to illegal immigrants as a bunch of criminals will get you nowhere. Except with V the K maybe.
2) Explain how you determine we will have 1/3 or 1/2 of the people we want to keep?
Well, there are already measures being taken that are making people self deport. Even here in LA there are several schools in the illegal neighborhoods that are depopulating. Add in federal enforcement first policies and that will increase dramatically. But if your asking me if I've undertaken a study of self-deportation in my spare time, then the answer is no. But I do read studies by groups that have. Here's one if you'd like to read it.
3) What does it matter what you want, we are talking about McCain.
Well, sure, H, but the only way McCain will come our way at all is to put pressure on him in the election. That generally requires the us to tell him and the part what we want.
4) I don't care how you think it makes me look. What it means is that it was an enjoyable experience that I look back fondly on, but at the end of the day they weren't the type of girl I would marry.
Posted by: runninrebel at May 23, 2008 12:25 AM (oV92E)
Posted by: adam h at May 23, 2008 01:02 AM (i7bVK)
@ runninrebel
"Well, it looks like we're getting somewhere, memo. You've gone from denying McCain ever speaks of them to acknowledging that he does. He even put them in the last bill. Baby steps. "
I suggest you re-read my response. Nowhere did I "acknowledge" that McCain did anything of the sort. I pointed out that any such provisions were completely useless and irrelevant whether they were in the bill or not.
"But your other questions apply to the McCain-Kennedy Bill when the enforcement measures weren't triggers. I don't know what effect they would have had on the current crop of immigrants, but as I said, I'm more interested in getting fool proof immigration enforcement in place for the future than deporting every illegal that is in the country now. And I didn't read that bill too closely because I wanted nothing to do with it. "
Considering that the Comprehensive Amnesty required all federal law enforcement agencies, including the Border Patrol, to aid any "applicants", i.e. illegal aliens caught by the BP, in completing the forms for the Amnesty I'd suggest the effect would be minimal.
And considering that the minimum requirement for an illegal alien to be covered by the Amnesty is: A notarized statement from a non-blood relative attesting that the alien in question was in the USA before Jan 1, 2007.
I'd suggest those "enforcement terms" you're so very proud of are total crap.
Particularly since, I believe, there was no legal citizen, alien resident or legal alien requirement on who could sign that notarized statement. Then there are all those pro-illegal alien people, such as various ministers of various churches, who would sign for anybody without a care.
"That's why it's important to see what the next bill looks like."
Oh yeah. Important. Sure. Because thats important.
Posted by: memomachine at May 23, 2008 01:28 AM (XlmYx)
I'm no lackey for Mccain. Anyone who doesn't understand my point that Mccain is better than a Dem president on this issue is braindead (you don't have to agree). That's not a glowing review.
Hongqi, if you have any integrity at all, you'll go check the Mccain website on spamming comment sections and see that immigration and this blog aren't mentioned as point awardable (I know this without looking... it's fucking obvious), and apologize to me for your tinfoil-hat accusation. Learn your lesson: Mccain supporters are largely honest decent people, and it's irrational to assume comments supporting him were motivated by the campaign unless there are several 'on topic'. This isn't Ron Paul, where 99% of his backers are lunatics. Don't let Aceofspades be the DU of the right wing.
Memo: has mccain lied before? Please cite. He seems to be meticulous in how he describes what he's going to do and in doing it. Many of the things that frustrate conservatives about him relate directly to his insistence on follow-through.
I'm not sure what your criticism is, with regard to the January 2009 estimate. It's one of many archaic points. Mccain has promised to enforce the laws and get a strong border control in place. Tell me how that's not the best we can get (our choices being either Mccain's enforcement or Obama's)
You realize that there are many people involved with legislation and enforcment, right? Mccain isn't God. These Amnesty bills are horribly convoluted, hundreds of people get to add crap to them,, etc.
Would it be nice to magically eliminate all illegal immigrants and force them to use the process all other immigrants use? Yeah. Possible? No. Mccain has to work with the democrats. He's able to do so because he's just not very conservative on many issues. That's an advantage in this climate where the GOP brand has been destroyed.
I get why memo is pissed off. Illegal Immigration has caused so much damage already. Violent crime, lost jobs, tax money, denying room for other immigrants who follow our laws... It's not crazy to be annoyed that Mccain is like Reagan in being soft here. But he made a comprimise to us on this issue, and I respect that.
Posted by: gohuckyourself at May 23, 2008 04:11 AM (8jYMc)
That's not what he's saying, exactly. I think he believes it was foretold, prophesied in the bible. And as Christopher Taylor said:
Incidentally, if God is sovereign and all powerful, everything that happens is according to His plan. This isn't odd or particularly new.
I'm Catholic, too and find his views repugnant, but not in the same class as Reverend Wright.
Posted by: Nice Deb at May 23, 2008 11:12 AM (7TjSG)
First off the bat: I'm not religious, agnostic to be exact. So I don't have faith in anything but my own cluelessness.
But it's clear to me that people, in our society, are threatened when someone actually demonstrates they take religion seriously, rather than just go through the motions. In this respect, Taylor's comment strikes me as obvious, so too the fact people get upset by it. They can't take the implications of what they're supposed to believe. They'd rather have all the feel good-isms and security while throwing away the rest.
Wright, on the other hand, is a charlatan who's simply using religion as a mask for his race-based marxism.
Posted by: MlR at May 23, 2008 11:25 AM (N7h3D)
The whole "Hitler was a hunter" bit is pretty out there but it also fits in with their eschatology. No big surprises there either.
Posted by: Tina at May 23, 2008 11:45 AM (vQ9zp)
@ gohuckyourself
"Memo: has mccain lied before? Please cite. He seems to be meticulous in how he describes what he's going to do and in doing it. Many of the things that frustrate conservatives about him relate directly to his insistence on follow-through. "
1. I'm not a moby.
This comes up every single time I question mainstream Republicanism or conservative pundits. I'm a hardline fiscal conservative and have been one for more than twenty years now. I believe emphatically in secure borders, small government, low taxes, minimal regulations, national security, strong military, fiscal responsibility and English as *the* official national language. Those are the major positions. On minor positions there are far too many to discuss at one time.
But I do find it irritating that every time I am in opposition the accusation of "moby" comes up. IMO the existence or presence of a "moby" isn't relevant. If the argument put forth is credible, then it needs to be addressed. The success or failure in addressing that argument, not the ideology or identity of the questioner, is what's important.
i.e. if a "moby" asks a question or pushes a position that cannot be refuted, then that's a serious issues that needs to be dealt with and that cannot be disregarded simply through accusations of "mobying".
2. Whether or not McCain has lied in the past is not relevant.
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Dale's ECB
Election Projection
Federal Review
Real Clear Politics
Rasmussen Reports
Gallup
Zogby
FoxNews Polls
Sabato/Crystal Ball
Paul Anka Haiku Contest Announcement
Integrity SAT's: Entrance Exam for Paul Anka's Band
AllahPundit's Paul Anka 45's Collection
AnkaPundit: Paul Anka Takes Over the Site for a Weekend (Continues through to Monday's postings)
George Bush Slices Don Rumsfeld Like an F*ckin' Hammer
Democratic Forays into Erotica
New Shows On Gore's DNC/MTV Network
Nicknames for Potatoes, By People Who Really Hate Potatoes
Star Wars Euphemisms for Self-Abuse
Signs You're at an Iraqi "Wedding Party"
Signs Your Clown Has Gone Bad
Signs That You, Geroge Michael, Should Probably Just Give It Up
Signs of Hip-Hop Influence on John Kerry
NYT Headlines Spinning Bush's Jobs Boom
Things People Are More Likely to Say Than "Did You Hear What Al Franken Said Yesterday?"
Signs that Paul Krugman Has Lost His Frickin' Mind
All-Time Best NBA Players, According to Senator Robert Byrd
Other Bad Things About the Jews, According to the Koran
Signs That David Letterman Just Doesn't Care Anymore
Examples of Bob Kerrey's Insufferable Racial Jackassery
Signs Andy Rooney Is Going Senile
Other Judgments Dick Clarke Made About Condi Rice Based on Her Appearance
Collective Names for Groups of People
John Kerry's Other Vietnam Super-Pets
Cool Things About the XM8 Assault Rifle
Media-Approved Facts About the Democrat Spy
Changes to Make Christianity More "Inclusive"
Secret John Kerry Senatorial Accomplishments
John Edwards Campaign Excuses
John Kerry Pick-Up Lines
Changes Liberal Senator George Michell Will Make at Disney
Torments in Dog-Hell
The Ace of Spades HQ Sex-for-Money Skankathon
A D&D Guide to the Democratic Candidates
Margaret Cho: Just Not Funny
More Margaret Cho Abuse
Margaret Cho: Still Not Funny
Iraqi Prisoner Claims He Was Raped... By Woman
Wonkette Announces "Morning Zoo" Format
John Kerry's "Plan" Causes Surrender of Moqtada al-Sadr's Militia
World Muslim Leaders Apologize for Nick Berg's Beheading
Michael Moore Goes on Lunchtime Manhattan Death-Spree
Milestone: Oliver Willis Posts 400th "Fake News Article" Referencing Britney Spears
Liberal Economists Rue a "New Decade of Greed"
Artificial Insouciance: Maureen Dowd's Word Processor Revolts Against Her Numbing Imbecility
Intelligence Officials Eye Blogs for Tips
They Done Found Us Out, Cletus: Intrepid Internet Detective Figures Out Our Master Plan
Shock: Josh Marshall Almost Mentions Sarin Discovery in Iraq
Leather-Clad Biker Freaks Terrorize Australian Town
When Clinton Was President, Torture Was Cool
What Wonkette Means When She Explains What Tina Brown Means
Wonkette's Stand-Up Act
Wankette HQ Gay-Rumors Du Jour
Here's What's Bugging Me: Goose and Slider
My Own Micah Wright Style Confession of Dishonesty
Outraged "Conservatives" React to the FMA
An On-Line Impression of Dennis Miller Having Sex with a Kodiak Bear
The Story the Rightwing Media Refuses to Report!
Our Lunch with David "Glengarry Glen Ross" Mamet
The House of Love: Paul Krugman
A Michael Moore Mystery (TM)
The Dowd-O-Matic!
Liberal Consistency and Other Myths
Kepler's Laws of Liberal Media Bias
John Kerry-- The Splunge! Candidate
"Divisive" Politics & "Attacks on Patriotism" (very long)
The Donkey ("The Raven" parody)