1 I shudder to think of what that cult is going to do to re-brainwash those children if/when they are returned to their parents. They are seriously FUBARed.

2 there’s going to be huge lawsuits against somebody, right?

As Joseph Smith used to say, Caaaaaa Ching!!!!!!

3 Fred Phelps is desperately trying to figure out how to get a slice of this action.

4

Oddly enough, no one has been charged with a crime. At all. Four hundred kids seized for how long now? DNA tests. In depth-investigations into people's identities and not a single pending criminal charge. In fact, all the Texas authorities have found is that the person who got this ball rolling was, in fact, a liar with an agenda.

So what some may consider "brainwashing" is something the constitutiution calls "freedom of religion".

I'm not fan of this church at all but, folks, you can't just send in the stormtroopers if there are folks in a compound you don't like. We liver under a rule of law and part of that rule is that you have to have a good reason to believe a law has been broken before you kick down someone's door, no matter who they are.

5 Crap. That was me a moment ago.

6 I just can't get over the sneaking suspicion that this whole religious compound was nothing more than a giant sex farm designed solely to produce young women and girls for dirty old men to paw all over.

7

It amazed me that a state agency could do this, could just take those kids, without a warrant, or trial, or evidence, or due process, or any other of the legal protections the rest of us take for granted. And all it took to set this machinery in motion was one anonymous tip.

As one who has homeschooled his children, I find this more than a little disturbing.

8 It was reported yesterday (Houston Chronicle) that so far 10 of the 50 girls between 14 and 17 were actually over 18.  I think this case is really starting to fall apart.

9

I'm not fan of this church at all but, folks, you can't just send in the stormtroopers if there are folks in a compound you don't like.

Sure you can.

10

I just can't get over the sneaking suspicion that this whole religious compound was nothing more than a giant sex farm designed solely to produce young women and girls for dirty old men to paw all over.

Yeah whenever these stories appear in the media, I keep thinking how do I get in on this sweet, sweet deal.

11 The mothers who are minors got to stay with their kids.  The mothers over 18 did not.  How many of the mothers lied and said they were 17 so they wouldn't be separated?

12 I wish that Texas showed as much concern for the thousands of pregnant minors in other parts of the state. You know, like in every major and minor city. And while I don't know nearly enough about this case to criticize the FLDS, I wonder which minors are worse off? At least these FLDS kids are in "families."

13  It amazed me that a state agency could do this, could just take those kids, without a warrant, or trial, or evidence, or due process, or any other of the legal protections the rest of us take for granted. And all it took to set this machinery in motion was one anonymous tip.

The case is falling apart OregonMuse, but there's no need to finesse the facts. There were two warrants: one for the search, and a later one to widen the search and seize the children.

As far as anonymous tips go, the issue is credibility. Was the tip, which claimed that underage girls were being impregnated at the ranch, credible? Yes, it was.

14 Thanks for the updates and analysis Gabe.

I do love it so when my snap, non law school informed opinions are vindicated by courts of appeal.

There were definitely some creepy things going on there but that doesn't give authorities a blank check to run roughshod over individuals without some reasonable connection to an illegal act.

15 Gee, does this mean the 27-year-old "child" that they seized can go free now?

16 oops my information was out of date its now 15 out of 31 coording to MSNBC

Earlier Thursday, attorneys for Child Protective Services said 15 of the 31 mothers authorities had put in foster care as children have now been declared adults, including one who is 27.

Another girl listed as an underage mother is 14, but the state has conceded she is not pregnant and does not have a child.

17 In fact, all the Texas authorities have found is that the person who got this ball rolling was, in fact, a liar with an agenda.

So what some may consider "brainwashing" is something the constitutiution calls "freedom of religion".

I'm not fan of this church at all but, folks, you can't just send in the stormtroopers if there are folks in a compound you don't like.

Correct, but the sockpuppet was the funniest thing I've seen in a while.  wink, wink "Bill Clinton"

18 Earlier Thursday, attorneys for Child Protective Services said 15 of the 31 mothers authorities had put in foster care as children have now been declared adults, including one who is 27.

 Another girl listed as an underage mother is 14, but the state has conceded she is not pregnant and does not have a child.

Whoopsie....TX is lookin kinda stupid right about now

19 I'm sorry how is an out of state anonymous tip credible?  If that's all it takes why don't cops just phone in their own tips whenever they need a search warrant.

"Hello LAPD?  Yeah , ummm I live in Colorado but I happen to know that there are these guys in Crenshaw that deal drugs because they sold them too me once but I escaped their evil clutches and now I want you to arrest them because I am only 16 and drug dealers shouldn't be doin' that to kids like me. 

My name?  Ummm, I don't want to give it.

Phone number?  Ummm I don't have one that's why I am calling from this convenience store pay phone. 

....

I swear judge that's exactly what they said and I find it credible so give me the warrant and ignore the fact that the voice on the tape sounds exactly like mine."

20 chad, hindsight is 20/20. Don't play dumb. DFPS didn't know that the tipster was from Colorado when it acted and she was convincing enough (due to her obsession) to make claims which were corroborated by observations at the ranch.

The error here is seizing all of the children, NOT raiding the ranch.

21 DFPS didn't know that the tipster was from Colorado when it acted and she was convincing enough (due to her obsession) to make claims which were corroborated by observations at the ranch.

I agree with you to a point on this Gabe. Don't forget the local sheriff and state police had a preexisting plan to execute this raid.

Tip lines get calls all the time and they don't end in raids like this.

They were looking for an excuse to do it and I am sure they didn't worry too much about what that excuse would be.

22

 

23

Damn, that #22 may be the most intelligent comment I've ever posted here. The browser's acting goofy today, but what that was supposed to say was:

This'll sound harsh, but for those of you who want to err on the side of proetecting the children, it's pretty much a toss-up as to whether the kids are worse off in the custody of FLDS or TX DFPS. Not a well-run agency.

24 That was my point Drew I was just being sarcastic about it. 

25

The error here is seizing all of the children, NOT raiding the ranch.

Well, if they didn't seize the children, it could scarcely be called a raid, I should think. Why else go in on such short notice?

I mean, a raid is where you go in in force, crack heads, take names, etc. The idea behind a raid is to put an immediate stop to organized, illegal activity, like a  brothel or sweat shop.

Are you suggesting that the due process followed here was mostly ok, save for removing the children?

It seems to me that, barring the kids being in any immediate danger (and they weren't),  the state of Texas could have conducted a quiet investigation and then, if necessary, moved in and made arrests (for bigamy or sex with minors, etc.)

The whole thing smacks of Renoism, i.e. somebody up in authority wanted results fast and didn't particularly care how they were obtained.

And I'm guessing the people who were ultimately responsible for initiating this fiasco will never be held accountable.

26 Ah, but you're assuming facts that weren't in evidence prior to the raid: that the children weren't in immediate danger.

And I reject your re-definition of "raid" to mean "cracking heads" and "taking children."

27

...waiting for the mea culpas and apologia's from those who rather, umm, [rashly, as it turned out] criticized those of us who's major point (or only point) was that none of this frapping mess was passing the damned smell test by the end of the first weekend ...pre the effin' separation order.

...you know who you are. (Christopher? - You, ahem, weren't one).

...waiting.

...still waiting.

28 Ah, but you're assuming facts that weren't in evidence prior to the raid: that the children weren't in immediate danger.

I think you have that backwards. The cops and protective services assumed they were in immediate danger based on, well nothing legally recognizable according to the court of appeals.

That was the argument in the original thread. They took all the kids without specific evidence on the threat to each individual and that's where the charge of religious or lifestyle bigotry came in.

29

And I reject your re-definition of "raid" to mean "cracking heads" and "taking children."

I claim my definition fits more with the way the word is commonly used. Is there a legal definition you're thinking of that's more appropriate?

30 I kind of have to question the use of the word facts here, not being a lawyer maybe there is some legal definition that is appropriate, but in the real world you can hardly claim that based off the sherriff's four years of dealing with the compound that had yielded no legal basis to raid the ranch (as shown in the article drew linked) that it was a fact that the children on the ranch were in danger.  You might be able to claim it was a fact that the 16 year old who called the family violence shelter was in danger but then wouldn't any warrants obtained have to be specific to that household.  It seems to me that there are some 4th amendment claims here. 

31 my comment @30 is based entirely on the extesive legal education I have garnered watching law and order reruns on TNT if it is incorrect blame Dick Wolf, NBC and Turner Broadcasting.

32 (2) The opinion notes that five pregnant minors were found in the compound and that their marital status was not known to the court. It is not illegal for a man to have sex with a minor woman in Texas so long as she is legally married to him. Given the FLDS practice of "spiritual marriage," we'll have to keep waiting to see if these five pregnant minors were legally married.

Aren't these the people who committed welfare fraud by claiming that they were single mothers? If any of the minors were among those who received welfare for being a single moms, they would essentially be confessing to fraud to now claim that the men were really married to those girls. I don't believe that the law in Texas permit polygamy anyway, so wouldn't that mean that only the first marriage was legal?

33 Hmmmm.

@ Gabriel

"As far as anonymous tips go, the issue is credibility. Was the tip, which claimed that underage girls were being impregnated at the ranch, credible? Yes, it was."

Uhhh.  No it wasn't.

The tip wasn't credible because the phone call originated from *Colorado*.

I'd suggest if someone was calling for help because she was trapped in a compound in *Texas* that the calling phone was in **Colorado** is a pretty goddamn big hole in the story.

34 memomachine, as I said before, that wasn't known at the time of the raid.

35 memomachine, as I said before, that wasn't known at the time of the raid.

Gabe,

They don't have caller ID?

According to this article the call that lead to the raid was made to a 'family violence shelter'. That seems to mean it wasn't made to 911 or a state tip line and no law enforcement or state official took the call directly.

Are you still sure that what appears to be a second hand tip was a reasonable basis for this action?

As I said earlier, they had a plan on the shelf for this and they were itching to execute it. They weren't terribly particular about the trigger. Alas, as the court of appeals points out, that's not reason enough.

36 Comment #4 gets it.  Screw law and order "conservatives", who, like Texas, see the State as enforcer of morality.

..waiting for the mea culpas and apologia's from those who rather, umm, [rashly, as it turned out] criticized those of us who's major point (or only point) was that none of this frapping mess was passing the damned smell test by the end of the first weekend ...pre the effin' separation order.

Another point was to observe the frequent replacing of rights with laws...and then standing around to see what some court rules so as to verify the, wait for it, constitutionality of certain State actions. 

And no, I don't mean legally.  I mean in arguments that what the State did was right because of, you know, the polygamy.  And the pure whim of the State's law enforcers.  And the benevolence of the 4th branch of govt, the CPS.

And for the children (who are now scarred for life, albeit in a way that we approve of.)

As in: Come take my kids without grounds and subject them to your foster "care" system.  Go ahead.  Provided you don't get struck down, you're right.

Love it:  Convention defining rights.  Power and opportunity outlining principle.

37 yeah but in the modern world we have two nifty inventions called caller ID and *69.  It seems reasonable that in determining the callers veracity they might try and identify whether or not she really was calling from where she said she was calling from. 

Something else that is kind of bothering me is the issue of the teenage pregnancies.  You said:

2) The opinion notes that five pregnant minors were found in the compound and that their marital status was not known to the court. It is not illegal for a man to have sex with a minor woman in Texas so long as she is legally married to him. Given the FLDS practice of "spiritual marriage," we'll have to keep waiting to see if these five pregnant minors were legally married.

but the court also noted that they didn't know the circumstances of the pregnancies (in other words it could have been the 16 year old boyfriend who got the pregnant, a 50 year old spiritual husband, or a space alien using Elvis's frozen sperm)  the way you wrote it implies that it was automatically a adult who got them pregnant.  Even if it was under Texas law a 3 year or less separation in age is a positive (?) defense against statutory rape charges.  Aslo the court didn't find that they were minors they found that they were alleged to be minors.  Since the state of Texas hasn't had a good record of identifying minors so far I think that is kind of important. 

38

I'm on the fence about this.  On the one hand, I don't like Reno's Finest (as in Janet, not Dangle) showing up to raid a community just because it seems creepy.  I would think if there weren't an immediate threat to children, it would be better to have investigations before grabbing kids.

On the other hand, there is the creepiness vibe, which is admittedly pretty strong.  But when push comes to shove, being creepy isn't a crime.

BTW, if you can only have sex with an underage girl if you're married to her, does that marriage have to be legal, as opposed to spiritual?  I would think that since the underage thing is a legal issue, you'd have to be legally married to avoid triggering it.  And is polygamy illegal, or just unrecognized?  I thought it was illegal, but a previous comment indicated it was just unrecognized by law.

Just in case there are some TX family law types out there.

39 Interesting mouseover ad at that Yahoo! link.

40

I am with Gabe on a few points here. You can not assume that some facts were determined ahead of time, such as the age of mothers who do not want to give their age. You also can not assume that no wrong doing took place since it did and it was obvious. The State is obligated to enforce laws that are on the books. It appears to me that the question is addressed toward how the State responded, not that it should not respond.

"Screw law and order "conservatives", who, like Texas, see the State as enforcer of morality." This is just an inane comment. All States are enforcers of morality. The distinction is that the legislatures determine what morality they wish to enforce, whether it be murder, theft, bigamy, or sex with a minor, all of which are illegal in Texas.

 

41 States don't enforce morality, Harry.  They enforce law.  What's insane is reversing the two.

So why have you?  Perhaps it's this mindset:

You also can not assume that no wrong doing took place since it did and it was obvious.

The appeals court just disagreed with you.  As far as the great majority of people caught up in this moral dragnet at the behest of a State enraged that people of odd faith live among them, no wrong doing took place.

I therefore do not assume no wrong doing took place.  I know it didn't.

Familiar with the establishment clause, are you?  Familiar with entire populations of children living in and around real issues and crimes?  They call them cities and state education systems.

So I'll say it again:  Screw law and order "conservatives", who, like Texas, see the State as enforcer of morality.

42 Protective Services Nazis are nothing more than retread social workers with a new gimmick. Their ignorance and lack of credentials is astounding considering the power our politicians have given them. My heart goes out to anyone who has to deal with these dyke-tyrants.

43 What happened to those kids at the hands of DPS is a tragedy. Texas over-reacted because they had already decided these folks were strange. I don't believe that a man can morally take more than one wife. What I do believe is that the people in this community are entitled to live their private lives without state supervision. The state of Texas has no right to notice a child on private property unless a person with legal standing alleges a problem. Bill O"Rielly isn't one of those, and neither is anyone in Colorado. As important as children are, the law is much more important, and any "law" that allows the state to arbitrarily insert itself between child and parent based on the beliefs of the parent is no law at all. Physical harm must be discrete from mental harm or spiritual harm until man has reached some sort of method of objectively quantifying them.

44

...still waiting.

 

...for Godot, apparently.

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46

Perhaps I'm misinformed but my understanding is that Texas law enforcement did have questions about the veracity of the false "call for help" (I won't call it a tip because the the phone call was someone claiming to be raped) before the raid. In fact, it was four days between the "call for help" and the actual raid. Also before the raid it was verified that the man that was accused of rape was in Arizona.

Finally, with respect to the 27 year old "teenager", she gave her birth certificate and drivers licence from the get go, but the CPD didn't believe her. Now, based on those same documents, they say she is 27.

Its clear that the state of Texas grossly overstepped it legal authority.

 

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