1 Ramsey is a whore.

2 I am trying to figure out his point. That appeasement MIGHT work, given another chance? and Obama is that chance?

3 Hi Alice.

4 Hi Gabriel!  How was graduation?

5 The news media are so in the tank for Obama I expect to see Jon Stewart with a sniper rifle at McCain's next public appearance.  They are completely effin' out of control.

And don't talk about Obama's charm winning them over.  He is their creature.  This is not a race of Democrats vs. Republicans -- this is a proxy election to decide if the mainstream media will rule America.

6 Hi everyone!

I'm John Ryan, and this is such a hot day, I have an entire bowlful of frozen cherries, strawberries, bananas, and a giant pineapple. Like I said, all frozen solid. Does anybody have a suggestion as to what I might do with them?

Also, I am looking for a cure for my tiny penis. Thank you.

7 (though he was making it in a last-minute, unreasonable way.)

So, if he made it in a timely manner...that would be OK?

Stuff, stuff, stuff...revisionist history...priceless.

8 The point was and is that Hitler got what he wanted from Chamberlain and there was STILL A WAR.

What did Israel get for negotiating Gaza?

Alice is right. When they start talking like psychos, and they have the military/weapons to back up the talk, let's take them seriously.

9 Posted by: John Ryan at May 17, 2008 11:53 PM (TcoRJ)

Goddamnit, do I have to repeat myself?

Apparently, I do

http://minx.cc/?blog=86&post=262687#c2142953

John, you're an idiot.

10 Bingo,

Israel got less than nothing from negotiating with Hamas or Fatah.

11 John Ryan saw that Hitler was mentioned and figured this thread had anything to do with his Bush = Hitler theory.  Seriously, what's the relevance here?

12 Whoops,

I guess they really haven't been in talks with Hamas but you know what I was getting at...

Listen to what I mean, not what I say...sigh.

13 Wow I just checked it, you're right, he changed it. He's also not posting any more comments people make either. All comments are held for approval, apparently none of them are good enough any more. Or something.

14 "Bruce Ramsey thinks we have the memory of an Alzheimer's patient with a head injury"

Bruce Hornsby thinks 'That's just the way it is'.

Don't take guys named Bruce too seriously, Gabe.

15 John Ryan, let's not forget that Rexford Tugwell and the rest of FDR's favorite boys were die hard fascists. Hugh Johnson kept a picture of Mussolini in his office..

I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll get out my copy of Liberal Fascism and start quoting Democrats who loved fascism, and you keep jabbering about "The Business Plot".

As for Chamberlain and Munich, the idiot newspaper columnist would have the right idea if the Sudetenland had been majority German or if Hitler had just wanted the Sudetenland. The problem comes when you look at the true makeup of the Sudetenland, not to mention exactly what the extent of Sudetenland is. Without getting into specifics, suffice to say that the ethnic blend in the western areas of Czechoslovakia is muddled, to say the least. More importantly, the Sudetenland contains the Skoda Works and several key invasion routes, not to mention the majority of the Czech border fortifications. It would be as though someone demanded and got half the state of Virginia, gaining them the world's largest naval base and started them out 100 miles from the capital.

No, the usual conclusions about Munich are the correct ones. It was about peace at any price, it was about being willing to trade the freedom of the others for your own comfort, and yes, as Churchill so beautifully put it it was "feeding the crocodile in the hope that he will eat you last."

16 Yep, that Jonah Goldberg sure is a knuckle-dragging conservative retard who doesn't know anything about history. A liberal could never embrace fascism. It's just impossible! Only conservatives are fascists.

17 Now, unable to defend his last post, he has a new one ...

 <<My previous post having inflamed a few hundred people, I'll try another tack. Forget the Munich conference. My point is really not about that anyway. It is about "appeasement" as a political label to prevent a conversation in the present.

I grew up facing the prospect of nuclear death from the Russians, and also the specter of world Communism. Well, we talked to the Russians. It didn't solve everything, but it did lead to a nuclear test ban, and a red telephone, and a few useful things. And finally, Communism went away.>>

http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/edcetera/2008/05/appeasement_again.html

18 John Ryan saw that Hitler was mentioned and figured this thread had anything to do with his Bush = Hitler theory.  Seriously, what's the relevance here?

Posted by: Z Ryan at May 18, 2008 12:04 AM (PDeVA)

Seriously,

Umm, I saw this one time . . . where it said Franklin Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor!  See, he was secretly a communist and he plotted to get us into World War II to help his buddy Stalin.  I read it in a book, it's true!

I kinda like how Joe Kennedy slips his memory though.

19 All comments are held for approval as standard there, Christopher.  It's entirely possible that the staff at the Seattle Times has more of a life than we do, namely, they're not sitting up at their computers on a Saturday night with their imaginary pretend blog-friends (who don't even answer polite questions about their graduation, yeah, YOU, Gabriel!).

I posted another comment over there before I posted this here, so we'll know tomorrow or Monday how much they're editing their comments.

20 And I guess the end of the cold war had nothing to do with thousands of nukes being pointed at the USSR...

21 In particular, to apply that label to the elected leaders of the Palestinians is to say that you aren't going to listen to their claims to a homeland. I think they do have a claim. So do the Israelis. In order to get anywhere, each side has to listen to the other. To continually bring up Hitler, the Nazis, the Munich Conference and “appeasement,” is to try to prolong the stalemate.

The stalemate should be finished by pushing all the residents of Gaza into the Western Bank. They have a homeland and the cancer is cut out of Israel.

Would this be a popular solution...not so much but it is the only one that will really work.

22 #20 No, of course not - finally communism just went away.

23

And who could forget Joe Kennedy Sr., father of Ted, crasher of stocks and one time US Ambassador to London.  No conservative he.

Joe is probably best known for running booze during prohibition and would otherwise be compared with Al Capone, except that Capone never supported the Nazi's.

Joe’s very brief political career ended abruptly it seems, when FDR decided that Churchill was not going to go for using the Nazi’s as a wedge to free Ireland.  Who knew?

24 Hrm.  I still had it open, on an unrefreshed browser window.  I lack the full compliment of comments that were posted, but I even have a few dozen of those.  Think I'm gonna save a copy. . . for posterity, and all that.

25 What Hitler was demanding was not unreasonable. He wanted the German-speaking areas of Europe under German authority.

So, Spain should annex all of South and Central America? Idiot.

26 Well, except for Brazil.

But the idea that the lefty media is just now starting to try to rewrite history?

BWA HA HAAAA!

Whatev? They were rewriting what was going on in the Cold War on the fly.

27 "Find out what they want. You don't have to knuckle under. But talk. Hear them out. Have them hear you out.

"There is a whole Internet jeering section that considers this a weakling's argument. Gotta be tough. Don't give an inch."

Good Lord, what would we do without Bruce?  Right after he took Journalism 101, he must have followed it up with Diplomacy 101.  Well played Bruce, good show.

In related news, Bruce Ramsey has put the bong down.

28

>But in 1938 people knew a lot less.

It's curious the writer makes this point. I wonder if he would give George W Bush the same benefit of the doubt. You see, we went to war in Iraq in 2003, when 'people knew a lot less' , based on the best intelligence available.

29

In one way, I don't feel like Ramsey is doing anything that wrong here.  Come on, you people don't sincerely think he honestly meant to say "Hitler wasn't that bad," do you?  Yeah, he's being duplicitous by not saying he's altering his argument because it sounds much worse than it really is, which is bad for a lot of reasons on its own, not the least of which is that it's something that Ace does basically every time he posts some loose shit.  But he really wan't kissing Der Fuhrer's ass here.

Now then, that said, he's still a colossal moron for the fact that what he's saying almost proves its own converse.  You have to work really hard to achieve that level of logical inversion.  Not surprisingly, Barack Obama also did it this week.

30 So if we annexed all the English speaking parts of North America liberals wouldn't consider it "unreasonable"?

31 Drew challenged us, on Friday to keep track of how far the media's willing to go to shill for Obama.

I decided to take a stab.

I just finished a preliminary list of egregious examples, (which I fully expect will grow as time goes on).

I may post on open blog, later. But right now, I'm going to bed.

32 Next up from Bruce: You know, Heinrich Himmler wasn't such a bad guy, really.

At least until the negative comments start rolling in, anyway.

33

"And I guess the end of the cold war had nothing to do with thousands of nukes being pointed at the USSR..."

Everyone knows the Russians decided to declare peace in the spirit of international solidarity - and World Peace.  This had nothing to do with the US fleet build up, cruise missiles in Europe, and the Strategic Defense Initiative.  We were just lucky that Reagan's, "Mr. Gorbechev Tear down this wall" didn't put a spanner in the works.

34 I grew up about 6 miles from the bullseye for at least one honking Soviet nuke, maybe 4 or 5.  I never worried about it much.  The Soviets were rational actors. Hitler not so much.

35 First we had BDS, then came OAS (Obama Adoration Syndrome). 

So, of course, now we have BDS-OAS.  A Democrat afflicted with this hybrid malady is beyond help.

In their diseased state, Bush must be attacked and Obama must be defended no matter what.  If doing so takes defending Hitler, so be it.

Prepare yourselves for their total mental collapse in November.

36 In related news, Bruce Ramsey has put the bong down.

please. Even kickass weed doesn't make you Ramsey-stoopid

37   Maybe someone should ask him if he also thinks that Islam's claim to all of Israel is also reasonable. Then see if their claim to Spain and India are also 'reasonable'. Could be interesting. Spain would be handed over to Islam since they claim it while Spain could claim Central and South America since they speak Spanish there.

38 The point is that even if we excuse the faction that argued for appeasement in 1938 on the grounds that they didn't know what we know now, by 1942 their error was plain to see. Likewise, the Sovs were on a roll until we started pushing back in the 1980's. Appeasement doesn't work; it just gives the bad guys a part of what they want at no cost.

Negotiations can be great where everybody is reasonable and operating in good faith. We don't have that with Iran or the various terrorist groups that plague the region. Negotiations will not resolve anything except the order in which the croc tries to eat what it wants.

39

What Hitler was demanding at Munich was not unreasonable as a national claim.

However, when Bush demanded that Saddam allow U.N. weapons inspectors free and unfettered access to search for contriband weapons- well, that's just over the line.

40 I grew up facing the prospect of nuclear death from the Russians, and also the specter of world Communism. Well, we talked to the Russians. It didn't solve everything, but it did lead to a nuclear test ban, and a red telephone, and a few useful things. And finally, Communism went away.

Well, at least that idiot realizes Communism's a bad thing, which is more than you can say for Obama's staff.

41 namely, they're not sitting up at their computers on a Saturday night with their imaginary pretend blog-friends (who don't even answer polite questions about their graduation, yeah, YOU, Gabriel!).

Whoa, whoa, whoa!

I was just checking in on my new iPod touch (graduation present!) with wifi! and saw your post. I swear, I had something more profound to say, but all that came out was "Hi Alice." Maybe something along the lines of, "I like this post." Meh. I was having fine motor control issues at the time IYKWIMAITTYD.

Graduation was good, but now I gotta run the folks and my best bud to the airport.

42

Amazing...  I just finished reading the comments on Bruce's op-ed and I am stunned.  Every one trashed him, and every one was better written.  Unbelievable.

He'll never admit it, but he's gotta be feeling like a couple dozen Panzer tanks just rolled over him.

And how come people like that always resort to re-writes/erasures on the fly?  I thought journalists were required to use proper editing/correction procedures on PUBLISHED material (NOT pre-published drafts).

43

Whoahh, the Swiss really dodged a bullet in WWII. Our esteemed author surely knows that many Cantons are German speaking--both High German, and their own dialects of Switzer Deutsch.

Maybe he forgot.

Maybe he's an idiot.

44 All comments are held for approval as standard there, Christopher. It's entirely possible that the staff at the Seattle Times has more of a life than we do

At no point did I suggest that they were not previously holding comments for approval, so you might want to dial back the incredibly insulting and condescending attitude. If you bothered to check, you'd note that I have a previous comment on there that did make it onto the site. My point was simply that they stopped posting any comments after a certain time, about the same time he changed the text of the article to remove the offending line.

Please, try not to be so arrogant and presume everyone is an idiot but yourself. It will make you more friends.

Heh... I left a comment noting that this shows someone so in the tank for a political candidate that they are willing to abandon all pretense of objectivity and reason to defend them. He emailed me back and told me he'd not stated which candidate he supports. I replied that he didn't need to.

In any case, the problem with this guy's mindset (and those who try to defend him and Senator Obama) is that he is pretending President Bush's speech indicates a binary switch: negotiation or no negotiation. President Bush didn't say that, he pointed out the obvious fact that some people cannot be negotiated with, that it is pointless and arrogant to presume that your magic words will somehow sway them to a conclusion they'd never considered.

I understand this ideology well because when I was in school, I used to believe that. Then I grew up.

45 Your name's not Bruce?  That's going to cause a bit of confusion.  Mind if we call you Bruce, just to keep things clear?

46

Well, we talked to the Russians.

Toolhead can't see the distinction between tough diplomacy backed by the willingness to use force and selling out entire countries at the demand of a madman.

Sit down, Senator, I wasn't talking about you.  This time.

47 My, you're grouchy, Christopher.  If I was taking a shot at anyone in my comment, it was also at myself for sitting in front of my computer on a Saturday night.  It's kinda hard to condescend when you're putting yourself in the group.

48

And on Ramsey's "only in hindsight" maneuver:

"This is only the first sip, the first foretaste of the bitter cup which will be proffered to us year by year, unless by a supreme recovery of moral health and martial vigour, we arise again and take our stand for freedom as in olden time. "

--Winston Churchill to the House of Commons immediately after the Munich Agreement.

 

49

How does pointing out that something seemed okay (to some - many, even) but was a terrible mistake, help Obama?

What is "strong" diplomacy in a world where a majority of countries won't even back economic sanctions?

50

Slick,

A.  Seemed okay according to whom?

B.  Waiting on a "majority of countries" is the way to big problems.  Strong diplomacy is letting the other guy know that you are searching for the 2x4 while you are smiling.

51 Churchill was in a distinct minority when he said what you quoted. It wasn't until Hitler started training his guns on Poland that people in large numbers began to realize what sort of person he was. The real sin of the appeasers was not giving concessions to Hitler. The real sin was the weak position in which they put the British military through cutbacks, disarmament, etc.--something that needed the entire span of WWII, and enormous help from the US, to overcome.

52 The real sin was the weak position in which they put the British military through cutbacks, disarmament, etc.

Gosh, that sounds like the Clinton years.

53

Graduation was good, but now I gotta run the folks and my best bud to the airport.

Gabe, how many times do I have to tell you? Shipping weed back home by sneaking it into your parent's luggage carries a great deal of risk, not the least of which includes your poor dad being assigned to a cell with a guy nicknamed "Big Stick."

54 "We are not fighting so that you will offer us something. We are fighting to eliminate you."

- Hussein Massawi, former leader of Hezbollah

55 kishnevi,

Two general rules: (1) You cannot appease someone who only wants more, you can only make him stronger with your concessions. (2) If you want peace, prepare for war.

Then and now the appeasers ignore these lessons. Neither sin is greater than the other. And plenty of people knew what Hitler was just as plenty of us understand today who the Islamofascists are. In 1938, there weren't enough to carry the day. We'll see now if the lessons of WWII have been preserved. I'm not optimistic.

56

"What is "strong" diplomacy in a world where a majority of countries won't even back economic sanctions?"

Does a fucking "community organizer" have a single clue as to what the hell is going on out in the world?

I mean, what the fuck makes him qualified to run even a lemonade stand?

57

To be fair to our brethren, who live on the other side of the Cascades, it isn't the water.

It's the trees.

They've spent all their time, hugging, and saving those oxygen producing, carbon-dioxide absorbing trees, upsetting the balance of nature...They live in such an oxygen-rich atmosphere, it's oxydizing their brains.

At least, I can find no other explaination.

58

It's the trees.

Nope. It's the rain. The constant drip drip drip has driven us all insane here.

Except for yesterday when it weirdly got up to 90 degrees.

59

Well, comment 43 beat me, but here goes.

This snippet from the article caught my eye: What Hitler was demanding was not unreasonable. He wanted the German-speaking areas of Europe under German authority.

What a whopper.  It was reasonable in the late 1930s for Germany to rule Switzerland?  Certainly Mr. Ramsey must know that the Swiss - the majority of whom are German speakers - were not considered by Hitler to be fair game to be either annexed or willingly folded into the Reich.  To believe otherwise is a monumental misconception.

The Swiss did not come through WW2 with clean hands, but they were very prepared to make Germany pay dearly for invading.

Austria may have been annexed, but they were pretty happy to be a part of the greater Reich, at least for a while.  After the war, they conveniently began referring to themselves as Hitler's first victims, but that is laughable.

60 Circa, I agree with you, I'm pointing out that the article, especially as changed, doesn't help O.B.

61 Further proof that the Left sees 1984 as an instruction manual, and not as a warning.

62 There is a school of thought that Chamberlain could not have  opposed Hitler at Munich because Britain had so weakened herself militarily that she could not have put up any resistance, and the French, well, they were the French back then just like they are now, and that Munich bought some time for rearmament, but this Ramsey guy is just a dipshit.  Churchill was right at the time of the Munich agreement, and Ramsey is wrong now.

63 Re: Kishnevi at #51 "...Churchill was in a distinct minority..."

We tend to look back and see Churchill in the Thirties as a lone prophet crying out in the wilderness. It is worth remembering that he was not alone in speaking out against the appeasers. A good recent book on this aspect of history is "Troublesome Young Men: the rebels who brought Churchill to power and helped save England" by Olson, 2007.

64 My, you're grouchy, Christopher.

Yeah... yeah I'm in a horrible mood I shouldn't post like this. Sorry for snapping at you.

65 We know what kind of man Hitler was, and that he started World War II in Europe. But in 1938 people knew a lot less.

Pure unadulterated bullshit. By 1938, Kristalnacht had happened. The Berlin Olympics had been carried off. The Kindertransport had been organized. Streicher's loathesome propaganda had been reprinted all over Europe. To not be aware of what was coming, you had to be wilfully blind.

My wife and I have in our collection a book called The Yellow Spot, which was published in Britain in 1936. It describes the systematic persecution of the Jews in Germany from the Nazis' assuming power, and reprints Nazi anti-Jewish propaganda. This stuff wasn't hidden - far from it, the Nazis were proud of it and boasted of it.

No, in 1938, anyone with his eyes open knew exactly the sort of a man Hitler was. And now, I know the sort of man Bruce Ramsey is, too.

66

"Pure unadulterated bullshit. By 1938, Kristalnacht had happened."

To be accurate, Kristalnacht did not take place until after the Munich conference - about 6 weeks after, so it was clear right off the bat what it would lead to if it somehow wasn't clear before.

I also want to address the defense of Munich from the paleocon Buchananite right - that WWII was bad because it led to Sovet domination of Eastern Europe.  Yes, pitiful Pat is still at it, recently attacking someone for calling WWII the "good war".  But the fact is if we had stood up to Hitler when we should have, the Soviets might have never taken over Eastern Europe in the first place (not to menton Yalta).  After all, what happened in 1938-9?  Essentially the West threw Eastern Europe under the bus to appease Hitler (no wonder this is an appealing strategy for Obama, he loves to throw his friends and relatives under the bus).  If we had stood by them, not only would we have stopped Hitler, but we would have created a bulwark against future Soviet expansion.

67 And how come people like that always resort to re-writes/erasures on the fly?

Once you leave quaint and obsolete notions of integrity behind, all things become possible.

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