1 McCain is "trying to show that he's not George W. Bush by going into the lion's den and taking hostile, unscripted questions from adversarial groups."

That was CPAC. The open-borders reconquistas are McAmnesty's amigos.

2 The only way I can see that addressing La Raza would be a boost for McCain is if he told them to go to hell.  And I don't think anyone believes that will happen.

3

I voted today.  My first time evar in my life.  I became a naturalized citizen only last year, and I never got to vote in Canada because I was in school down here.

I did not vote for McCain, I left it as "No Preference".  Because NC is a closed primary, and since I'm registered Republican, I got the Repub ballot.  It was very sparse compared to the Dem ballot.  Strangely enough, Huckabee, Paul, and Keyes were on the ballot.  Didn't Huckabee formally drop out of the race?  And what is Keyes doing on the ballot?  I won't say anything about Paul.

No one asked for my ID.  I gave them my name and address.  I had my voter registration card with me because I thought I needed to show it.  Nope!  No questions about ID or anything.  They need to tighten that shit up, like last week!  I could've voted as my neighbour because he's away on vacation and I know his name and address, and then come back at the end of the day and vote twice.  WTF?  NC does a piss poor job verifying who is eligible to vote.

 

4 And as to judges, we're always told by McCain's apologists that it was because of the Circle-Jerk-of-14 that some conservatives judges got confirmed. But we'll never know how many conservative judges would have been confirmed if the nuclear option had been used instead.

5 All of a sudden even Ron Paul seems like a more viable candidate.  God this guy sucks.  And I'll vote for him anyway.  grrrrrrr.

6 The only way I can see that addressing La Raza would be a boost for McCain is if he told them to go to hell.

That's the crux of the situation, more or less. Showing open hostility towards La Raza will probably hurt more than help though. It might mollify a few "skeptics" on the right but big whoop. Be'll see what he says. I'd like to hear McCain's opinion on the issues Malkin raises. He's opening the door for them so I hope he's prepared.

La Raza should be a hostile group for McCain since he's tacked to the right on immigration with the enforcement first pledge. It will be interesting to see if La Raza buys his change and gets their dander up or if they, like the suicide republicans, simply don't believe him. If that's the case, it will be a little tea party.

7 EC, I too am in NC. I voted early (last Friday). Since I'm registered unaffiliated, I got my choice of ballots and took the Republican one so I could get in on the Smith-McCrory Governor race. The list of candidates for the GOP presidential primary was hilarious -- (in alphabetically order) Huckabee, Keyes, McCain, Paul, No Preference. I went with Alan Keyes. I thought he was marginally better than No Preference.

As for ID, none requested. All I had to do was give them a name and address, I could have been anyone off the street.

8 I generally agree with McCain on immigration and I could see myself laughing about a hotel fire if a La Raza meeting were scheduled the same day. I guess when McCain says he intends to meet with "all Americans" he means Central and South Americans too.

9 “Some federal judges maverick-y Senators who collaborate with Democrats to write legislation that suppresses political speech operate by fiat, shrugging off generations of legal wisdom and precedent while expecting their own opinions to go unquestioned."

Fixed. 

10 McCain could be looking for a Sister Souljah moment.

11 I'm having 500,000 old-fashioned wooden clothespins printed up with 'McCain O8!' at $5.95 a crack. You can wear it as a campaign pin, and then put it on your nose when it comes time to vote for the ol' bastard. But, don't worry, I'll still hang out with you morons when I'm rich..............

12

LastRick,

The ID thing is fucking crazy and hilarious at the same time.  How many illegals with drivers licenses have voted today?  Inconceivable!!!

Who did you vote for Guv?  I voted Graham.

Check out his bio.

-lifetime NRA member

-fav movie:  Patton

Remember him from the "Stop the gas tax hike" campaign a few years back? 

13

McCain announced today that he will address La Raza

And this is different from the Republican who visited the Nazi meeting ....how?

I mean, if I -had- to pick one, I'd rather he be a nazi.

I mean, if it's gonna be you or me, better you then me.

But I'll be damned if I vote for this bastard any sooner then I'd vote for the guy who hangs out with Indiana nazis. Seriously, fuck this shit. I can't see how anyone (white) could vote for this guy and then condemn that Indiana politician. You'd pretty much have to be a self-loathing race traitor, wouldn't you?

Because you'd have to be racialist (hewing to racial identities, therefor able to be a race 'traitor') first, in order to hate your own race. Why else would it be cool  with white guys to hang out with (semi-harmless) hispanic supremacists but not hang out with (even more harmless) white supremacists, unless you were just suicidal?

14

That's the crux of the situation, more or less. Showing open hostility towards La Raza will probably hurt more than help though.

No, it really won't! I have no idea why so many otherwise intelligent Republicans buy into the myth and delusion of Hispandering. The allegedly socially conservative Mexican Americans will still be seduced by the welfare and the poisonous "high" of anti-American "identity politics" that that Demunist Commiecrats offer.

La Raza should be a hostile group for McCain since he's tacked to the right on immigration with the enforcement first pledge. It will be interesting to see if La Raza buys his change and gets their dander up or if they, like the suicide republicans, simply don't believe him. If that's the case, it will be a little tea party.

This, however, is right on the mark.

15 McCain could be looking for a Sister Souljah moment.

runninrebel ,

How would that work?  He'd be smacking them for things he agrees with.

I don't know if I missed it the first time or she updated after I posted this but Malkin points out that McCain was La Raza's 1999 Senator of the year.  How does he go there and say they are wrong now?

No one on the right would believe him and he'd only piss off his moderate/liberal base.

16 McCain could be looking for a Sister Souljah moment.

Yeah, wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which one fills up first.

17

Why else would it be cool  with white guys to hang out with (semi-harmless) hispanic supremacists but not hang out with (even more harmless) white supremacists, unless you were just suicidal?

Brown racists good, white racists baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad.

18

No one on the right would believe him and he'd only piss off his moderate/liberal base.

His "moderate/liberal base" doesn't really exist, as he will discover after the Hillary vs Barack cage match. It was just "independents" crossing over to vote for him in open primaries. McMaverick is in for a real let-down when the lib media starts to hit him hard this summer.

As for those us on the right, if he would just green light the border wall, we'd be happy. We know he's a squish, but if we can push him our way, we're happy.

 

19 Curmudgeon:

No, it really won't! I have no idea why so many otherwise intelligent Republicans buy into the myth and delusion of Hispandering.

I didn't mean that it would be harmful to the Hispanic vote. La Raza is to a lot of Hispanics what the Black Panthers are to a lot of Blacks. There's very little risk of losing the segment of the Hispanic vote McCain can get by going off on La Raza. It would be harmful in the broader campaign by making McCain look like the angry old bastard that he is.

Drew:

How would that work?  He'd be smacking them for things he agrees with.

Well, I wouldn't go so far to say that McCain agrees with the Reconquista  and many other loony La Raza  stuff.  But, in short, yeah, that's basically what a Sister Soulijah moment is.

20 Have he Donks met with this crew yet? If not, why do we have to? Or do the Dems figure they have this vote, like the afriggan-Americans, in the bag

21 I mean, look: The McCain campaign is planning the meeting for July, which is when they probably assumes the Dem race will be over. It sounds to me like they want to bounce off of La Raza as a way of positioning his immigration plan on the right, and forcing Obama to put a plan together somewhere in the meaningless middle or side with La Raza. It's a pretty good strategy if that what they're doing.

22 It sounds to me like they want to bounce off of La Raza as a way of positioning his immigration plan on the right,

It's like Obama-lite for conservatives: McCain....Hope he Changes!

23 The McCain apologists tend to remind me of Star Trek geeks who try to explain plot-holes by making enormous leaps of logic. Look, McCain is not a very bright person (bottom of his Naval Academy class, thinks in cliches, talks in sound bites), and so it is safe to assume the most simple explanation is the right one: He's going to La Raza because to his Beltway Bubblebrain they represent voters he has to pander to to win an election, and so he will go and pander to them.

24 EC, while I can't guess how many illegal aliens voted in the primary, I can say that the chance that just one could vote is a problem. I've talked with several of my coworkers today and it's pretty much a consensus, no one has been asked for an ID. If you could recite your address, you could vote. Or, a scary thought, if you could recite someone else's address who hadn't voted yet, you could vote. In all fairness though, the voting station I went to is in the suburbs of Raleigh and I saw nothing but the typical white folk and AAs that live out here in the countryside. So the chance of illegal voting is there but I can't say I witnessed any.

I voted for Fred Smith, I was satisfied with his platform and I thought he had a chance of beating McCrory.

25 Brilliant comebacks.

26 He's going to La Raza because to his Beltway Bubblebrain they represent voters he has to pander to to win an election, and so he will go and pander to them.

I mean really, Broken Record, are you this stupid or has your decent into warmed over nihilism just scrambled you brain? Do you really think McCain and his campaign are actually courting the radical Hispanic vote?

27 Do you really think McCain and his campaign are actually courting the radical Hispanic vote?

Two Words: Juan Hernandez

28

McCain wouldn't even recognize the radical Hispanic vote if it bit him on the ass.

Sometime around 2010 he might figure out what La Raza means.

29 runninrebel,

Look at his record...

He was one of their two legislators of the year in 1999 and was the keynote speaker at their conference in 2004.

Why exactly should we conclude he isn't courting their support or that he's going there to tell them off?

Get real, he is who he is.

30 You're as deep as a puddle, Broken Record. Do you think Juan Hernandez is there to convince radical Hispanics to vote Republican or to assure all Hispanics that McCain and the R's don't hate brown people?

31

It would be harmful in the broader campaign by making McCain look like the angry old bastard that he is.

Anger really isn't the problem, his betrayals are. In fact, his anger is one of the few things we LIKE about McCain. But he seems to have no anger when he should (i.e., at irredentist La Raza traitors or fellow "veterans" like John Kerry) and lots of anger at people who might otherwise support him.

Do you really think McCain and his campaign are actually courting the radical Hispanic vote?

Of course not. But the fact remains: the "moderate" MexAmerican vote, seduced by welfare entitlements, will vote Democrat anyway. And the poisonous effects of "multiculturalism" and "identity politics" means that "moderate" MexAmericans get increasingly seduced into being radical Commiecrats. Not as bad as "moderate" Muslims of course, but it's a matter of degree, not of principle.

Note: I don't like the term "Hispanic" because (1) it conflates Cuban Americans and Puerto Ricans, who are motivated by different political concerns, and (2) it obscures the fact that many people with Spanish surnames or heritage are still, for all practical purposes, White. "LaRaza" identity politics are not aimed at these people.

32 Why exactly should we conclude he isn't courting their support or that he's going there to tell them off?

Drew, follow along, man. The questions was whether he would tell La Raza to go to hell. I said that would be a bad idea. What he will do is be nice (as is apparently his way now) and tell them where he disagrees, which will be on enforcement first. They will obviously not like that and McCain can use this civil antagonism as a way to define his immigration plan while keeping it about policy and not Hating Brownie.
So, it's not as simple as courting them or telling them off.

33 Juan Hernandez, Hispanic Outreach Director, McCain '08, in his own words:

"I want the third generation, the seventh generation, I want them all to think 'Mexico first."

 “We must not only have a free flow of goods and services, but also start working for a free flow of people.”

“I work with the community in the United States, the Mexican community because I don‘t want them essentially going native on us. We want them continually tied emotionally, linguistically, politically to Mexico.”

Nope. Nothing radical there. Just drink your Kool-Aid like a good Republican.

34

LastRick,

I too, live in the suburbs of Raleigh.  I'm in Wake Forest.  When I went to the polling station around 7AM, it was pretty empty and I got my ballot cast in about 2-3 minutes.  Real fast.

My stepson who is registered to vote told me last night not to wake him up early to go vote.  He came downstairs when I was leaving (I live next to the school that was my poll station), I offered to drive him there and back home again.  He still said no.

I'm just sooooo proud to be raising a future moron generation!

Yeah, this no ID crap bothers me.  It needs to be fixed before the general election.  I'm not betting on it though.

35 So, it's not as simple as courting them or telling them off.

runninrebel,

Then I don't think a Sister Souljah moment is what you think it is.

Don't forget when Clinton knocked her at the Rainbow Coalition meeting, Jessie Jackson was furious with him. Of course that was the plan all along.

So how does McCain have his moment and not tell or piss them off?

36 Gotta ask though, if it's fair to criticize Obama over his association with Jeremiah Wright, why is it not fair to criticize McCain over his association with Juan Hernandez?

_{(Because then people might start questioning the sincerity of his election-year conversion on border security - McCainiacs)}

37

Do you think Juan Hernandez is there to convince radical Hispanics to vote Republican or to assure all Hispanics that McCain and the R's don't hate brown people?

The Left will *always* say that anyway. If you won't do what is right because you are afraid of the Commiecrats demonizing you, then the battle is already lost.

Have you forgotten how Uncle Ron was demonized as a racist by the Commiecrats? He smiled, ignored it, and won landslide votes anyway. (Uncle Ron didn't enforce the border wither, but it was a more minor problem then) Bush the Elder, Bush the Younger, and McCain pander, sign quota bills, won't enforce the borders, and sell us out, win about the same 1/3 of the MexAmerican vote and 1/10 of the African American that Uncle Ron did, annoy the faithful, and lose the Reagan Democrats and White independents.

38 Nope. Nothing radical there. Just drink your Kool-Aid like a good Republican.

You see, Broken Record, this is what makes me think you might actually be retarded. The question was not if Juan Hernandez is a radical, but what his function is in the McCain campaign. I say it is to assure that the Republicans do not come off as nativists while fixing the immigration problem, while your smart self apparently thinks McCain is in the grips of Marxist radicalism(?).

39

Oops, let me fix that:

Have you forgotten how Uncle Ron was demonized as a racist by the Commiecrats? He smiled, ignored it, and won landslide votes anyway. (Uncle Ron didn't enforce the border either, but it was a more minor problem then)

Bush the Elder, Bush the Younger, and McCain pander, sign quota bills, won't enforce the borders, and sell us out, win about the same 1/3 of the MexAmerican vote and 1/10 of the African American that Uncle Ron did, annoy the faithful, and lose the Reagan Democrats and White independents.

 

40 Annoy the faithful, and lose the Reagan Democrats and White independents.

Which is why the Republican party is hopeless and bankrupt. Why would anyone want to donate time and money to a party who's only vision is, "Somewhat less socialism than the Democrats are offering?"

41 Maybe you two should start some sort of political party that runs solely on border enforcement.

Good luck with that.

42 So how does McCain have his moment and not tell or piss them off?

They will get pissed at him about his enforcement first switch.

43

V the K: Worse than that, it imports an underclass that will only vote Demunist Commiecrat, and makes it that much harder year after year. The once solid Republican Southwest was lost partly because of immigration romantic Hispandering fools, and partly because of Wall Street Journal cheap leabor greedheads who prove Lenin right.

Of course we Republicans should recruit that "talented third" of Mexican Americans, just like they should recruit that "talented tenth" of African Americans. But let's get it through our thick elephantine skulls: The Demunist Commiecrat Left, which has taken over that party, will always race-bait. If we are afraid to do what is right because of that, then we might as well give up.

44

Maybe you two should start some sort of political party that runs solely on border enforcement.

Good luck with that.

There you go again--answering just like the Wall Street Journal greedheads.Good luck to you trying to win anything without us, and enjoy those cheap gardeners and maids while they last. When the time comes for the Demunists to tax you to death, socialize your wealth and hang you out to dry, you will have imported the underclass with which to do it. Lenin sadly was perceptive.

45 Good luck to you trying to win anything without us...

Really? Are you kidding me with these sour grapes? You guys haven't been a factor in this election since Teh Fred! dropped out of the race.

46 Curmudgeon, I think on a certain level, the McCainiacs know their candidate sucks indefensibly. Name-calling and straw-man arguments are the marks of people who know they can't win an argument on the merits.

47 Irony, thy name if Broken Record.

48 or "is"

49 They will get pissed at him about his enforcement first switch.

runninrebel,

Except for the fact that he hasn't switched. Remember when he went on Meet the Press a few months ago and said sure he'd sign McCain-Kennedy amnesty if he got the chance. His only point is it won't pass.

Considering it came pretty close last time I wouldn't consider that an iron clad switch to enforcement first. I doubt La Raza will see it that way either.

50 Hilarious, V, Drew & Curm, but maybe it's time to give up.

I think runninrebel is on to something. You guys need to get into the modern times and understand that those silly little things like "facts", "voting record", and "actually stated beliefs" have no bearing on how McCain would act once elected.

McCain is going to be the bestest thing since Ronald Reagan, believe you me, so just pack up your worries and get to the polls and pull the lever gosh-darn-it.

I mean, sure it's a little hypocritical that McCain wouldn't stay on the reservation and vote for Bush, but that was understandable see, because McCain was angry. It's far better to abstain from voting when angry, than when you actually disagree in principle with a candidate. Why, that's just racist and retarded.

51 I see it now, krakatoa. By gosh! You're right. It doesn't matter that we leave the borders wide open. It doesn't matter that we impose massive regulations on American industry in the name of enriching the global warming lobby. It doesn't matter if we have a Republican president whose entire career is based on making deals with Democrats to screw over Republicans. Principles don't matter. Facts don't matter. The important thing is... the guy living in the White House has a R in parentheses after his name.
 

52 ¿Quién es su papi?

53 Drew:

I doubt La Raza will see it that way either.

Well, that's what we're going to find out isn't it? I can think of no better place that in front of La Raza to see if McCain stands on his pledge to enforce the border first.

Hey Krack, Broken Record was saying something about straw-men arguments a couple comments ago. Maybe you guys should get your heads together and try to look a little less like self-parodies.

54 Bigger picture: With a strong Democrat majority in both houses, what can McCain really accomplish? Tax cuts - Dead on Arrival. Judges? The only one's he'll get through are the ones his buddies Ted Kennedy and Chuck Schumer approve of. If he stays true to form, he'll most likely cut a deal to let senate Democrats pick judges in the name of "reaching across the aisle." Health care reform? Dream on. Earmark reform? Not likely, and earmarks are insignificant compared to entitlement spending anyway.

The one domestic policy area where McCain can assuredly get the legislation he wants passed and secure his "legacy" is Amnesty.

Open borders people, and I might assume that at least some of our critics here are WSJ-type open-borders fans are cool with that.  I'm not.

55 So, apparently, reb not only doesn't know the meaning of 'Sistuh Soljah moment,' he also doesn't know the meaning of 'straw man argument.'

56 I love that Broken Records prognostications never involve the WoT.

57

Really? Are you kidding me with these sour grapes? You guys haven't been a factor in this election since Teh Fred! dropped out of the race.

So you in the Party Establishment can win barely a plurality of front-loaded, winner-take-all, and "open" Republican primaries. While losing the general election. Aren't you just proud of yourselves. Keep shutting out the rest of the Party and going to those fancy dinner parties. Just don't pay too much attention to the seething hired help.

I never thought I would say it, but I wish the Republicans had the Democrat Primary method. Even if it ran the risk of an Operation Chaos from the Left. At least they have to listen to their peons.

58 It doesn't matter if we win in Iraq if we lose our country at home.

59

It doesn't matter if we win in Iraq if we lose our country at home.

Or, we could lose both.

60

Just for those who think we've done nothing. 

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/immigration/

With a strong Democrat majority in both houses, what can McCain really accomplish?

If you would take you fingers out of your ears you would know most who are advocating voting for McCain do so because of this question and not because of your question.

With a strong Democrat majority in bother houses, what can Obama really accomplish?

61 I can think of no better place that in front of La Raza to see if McCain stands on his pledge to enforce the border first.

runninrebel,

Keep in mind, that 'pledge' is somewhat conditional. If he gets his bill without enforcement and just amnesty, he'll sign it.

TIM RUSSERT: If the Senate passed your bill, S-1433, the McCain-Kennedy immigration bill, would you as president sign it?

JOHN MCCAIN: Yeah, but the lesson is that it isn't going to come, it isn't going to come. The lesson is they want the borders secured first.

So if enough Democrats win this year in the Senate (a very real possibility even with a McCain victory at the top of the ticket) amnesty without enforcement could pass.  And then look at what his 'pledge' is.

62 I don't disagree, Drew. They are lots of  if's and  McCain needs to make his policy prescriptions crystal clear between now and Nov. It looks to me likes he's planning on doing that if he's going to get up in front of La Raza of all groups.

63 Secondary to that, I'm not sure the Dems want to get saddled with an amnesty bill while there is a Dem president. It was cool if they could dish it off on Bush, but I don't think they want to own it.

64 No no no, V the K... rr is rrrright.

Facts & figures, voting records and campaign promises -- that's all just meaningless hay for the strawman.

The only issue is this: what do you hope McCain will do that he has dared not lay out explicitly?

I'm with you rr. You've got me convinced! Do you have a newsletter? Oh! Do you have refrigerator magnets? I would so love me some Maverick^tm refrigerator magnets. Maybe with a picture of him holding a bottle of V8?

65 Um, we're trusting the White House to be honest about how effective its immigration policy is? The same white house that bragged about what a great success its "virtual border fence" was, and then a week later the GAO issued a report saying it didn't work at all? The same white house that promised 6,000 National Guard would be sent to the border, and only sent 1,500 and is now bringing them back home? The same White House that's letting Ramos and Compean rot in prison for shooting an illegal immigrant drug runner in the buttocks? That's the White House polly is citing as proof that the border situation is being taken seriously?

Someone call me an ambulance. I just busted a gut.

66 They are lots of  if's and  McCain needs to make his policy prescriptions crystal clear between now and Nov.  It looks to me likes he's planning on doing that if he's going to get up in front of La Raza of all groups.

Dream on.  McCain and La Raza are allies - have been for years.  As for McCain making his immigration policies "crystal clear, he will make them as clear  as Obama made his epic speech on RACE.  It will be as meaningful and inclusive and deep as any politician can get when faced with a tough issue.

67 It's also worth noting that La Raza opposes every measure described in the White House link Polly links to.

68 It looks to me likes he's planning on doing that if he's going to get up in front of La Raza of all groups.

runninrebel,

Not to beat a dead horse but what leads you to believe this? It's like with the NC GOP ad. A lot of people were saying, oh it's brilliant good cop/bad cop strategy! There was not one bit of evidence for that. In fact, given McCain's long record of kicking Republicans in the balls there was far more reason to take him at his word.

It's the same with La Raza. Why will he take this opportunity to stand up to them when in fact he's been before them at least twice before and keeps getting invited back.

I am not directing this at you but I think a lot of Republicans are engaging in a willful suspension of disbelief when it comes to McCain.

69

It doesn't matter if we win in Iraq if we lose our country at home.

Or, we could lose both.

Well, what the hell are you gonna do, move to Iraq?

If we lose our country at home, it doesn't matter if we win in Iraq means it doesn't matter if we win in Iraq...it don't matter. Who cares? Not me.

70

it don't matter. Who cares? Not me.

The obvious point being, the Democrats are worse on border enforcement and the war.

71 Drew:

Why will he take this opportunity to stand up to them when in fact he's been before them at least twice before and keeps getting invited back.

Because since his last meeting with La Raza he made a pledge to do the will of the people and enforce the borders first, Drew. He can't go back on that now and say he will promote his original bill. And if he was intending to skate by with a muddy position he wouldn't get up in front of a radical group. If they act like they don't care about his supposed change it will come off as obviously bullshit. If they go after McCain he'll be forced to clarify his position.

Krak:

Facts & figures, voting records and campaign promises -- that's all just meaningless hay for the strawman.

Uh, Ok, but saying "Facts & figures, voting records and campaign promises -- that's all just meaningless hay for the strawman" isn't a fact or figure, a voting record or a campaign promise. It's not an argument of any kind. McCain's opinion and history on immigration is well known. What his policy will be on immigration is to be seen. And his decision to get in front of La Raza for a speech tells me that he isn't going to try and muddy his prescriptions.

72 Toby and Entropy, you've steered into the point. None of the three candidates seriously wants to secure the border. The challenge in Washington right now is to see how little "enforcement" they can get away with before the peasants are satisfied, so they can proceed with their amnesty and dismantle the middle class guest worker programs.

McVain is also pandering to Hispanics as a hedge against an Obama nomination. Hispanics have gone primarily for the Hilldog, and animosity between browns and blacks is one of the dirty little secrets the multi-culti left doesn't like to talk about.

73

Really, I think people's positions are quite clear.  This endless rehashing is boring me. 

I'll vote for the moderate Republican turd in November, unless someone can make a cogent argument as to why electing an even more liberal Democratic candidate, through action or inaction, helps our country.

74

the Democrats are worse on border enforcement

-3 is an abstract concept.

By which I mean, there is no 'less then 0'.

And if there was, I'm still not sure that would be true. The democrats are roughly indistinguishable from the GOP on border enforcement.

75

The democrats are roughly indistinguishable from the GOP on border enforcement.

I'm waiting for Obama to say that he will build my damn fence.

76 He can't go back on that now and say he will promote his original bill.

Why the hell not?  He is The Maverick, after all - he doesn't have to account for himself to anyone, least of all those g-ddamned conservatives. 

77 McCain goes to address La Raza and my checkbook goes back in the drawer...

Let me guess, he's going to tell them how unfair illegal immigration is to the childrebn of legal Hispanic immigrants when they try to find entry-level jobs only to see middle-aged Jose Trabajero already standing there for a fraction of the legal wage and no bennies...

78

V the K at May 06, 2008 02:33 PM (PLvLS

Its not necessary to try to make your point with half truths or distortions.  The virtual fence was a test program and was dismantled after two months because it did not work as intended. That is what a test program is for.

There were 6000 NG troops and they were reduced according to the previously planned time schedule.

Ramons and Compeon were convicted by a jury for covering up a shooting. This same AG had previously investigated over 10 other shootings with one involving a death and no charges were brought.  We have recently convicted multiple border agents for crimes. Just because they are border agents does not make them innocent. They may be but not just by default.

 

79 Because since his last meeting with La Raza he made a pledge to do the will of the people and enforce the borders first, Drew.

runninrebel,

That's just factually untrue unless you don't believe what he said in the MTP clip. When asked if he would still sign amnesty with no enforcement if it got to his desk he say 'yeah'.

His 'enforcement pledge', such as it is, is only valid if it's the only offer on the table. If he can get a clean amnesty bill, he's in for that.

Why is that so hard to admit?

80 Why is that so hard to admit?

I'm not denying that. But that doesn't mean he didn't make the pledge either. And just like you are fixating on his stipulation, the folks at La Raza will be fixating on his pledge. Hence, Mccain is forced to clarify his position.

81 I'll vote for the moderate Republican turd in November, unless someone can make a cogent argument as to why electing an even more liberal Democratic candidate, through action or inaction, helps our country.

Well, Toby, that is one way of looking at it. And I would never hold it against you for voting on that basis. From my point of view, an Obama administration would be worse than a McCain administration, but not by enough. But I do know that it is the nature of the American voting public to alternate between (R) and (D) administrations. Sooner or later, the WH is going to change hands. If it happens when the differences between the parties are minor, that's probably for the best. Putting McCain in office in 2008 would make a (R) win in 2012 incredibly unlikely and all but impossible in 2016. I'd prefer to give the Dems their 4 years now, when it won't matter much, and wait for 2012 on the chance that someone really good, like Bobby Jindal, will be ready to go.

Not to mention, the party in power tends to lose seats in the mid-terms. That means the 2010 elections could be an even bigger disaster for (R)'s than 2006. And with post-census reapportionment coming up that would be a bad thing. Republicans might well be better positoned in vigorous opposition to a liberal Democrat than in grudging acquiescence to a liberal Republican president.

No one can really know what the future holds. I don't pretend that a loss in 2008 automatically means a win in 2012. But I know history, I know the odds, and I know what McCain has done over the last decade in the senate. The stakes are pretty low. It's worth the gamble, from my perspective, to lose 2008 with a chance of rebuilding two and four years out.

82

Let me guess, he's going to tell them how unfair illegal immigration is to the children of legal Hispanic immigrants when they try to find entry-level jobs only to see middle-aged Jose Trabajero already standing there for a fraction of the legal wage and no bennies...

If he actually did that, I would be impressed, believe it or not. But after the predictable booing from the identity politics crowd, he won't.

 

83

I'm waiting for Obama to say that he will build my damn fence.

Well, see, that's your problem.

Stop listening to what they say.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/03/17/where-clinton-obama-and-mccain-stand-on-immigration.html

6 of one, a half dozen of the other, the square root of 36 of something else.

84

Not to mention, the party in power tends to lose seats in the mid-terms. That means the 2010 elections could be an even bigger disaster for (R)'s than 2006. And with post-census reapportionment coming up that would be a bad thing. Republicans might well be better positoned in vigorous opposition to a liberal Democrat than in grudging acquiescence to a liberal Republican president.

I do predict that a shrill Hillary or a marxist Barack in office would lead to a Congressional Republican landslide that would make 1994 look tame. The key question, of course, is how much damage could Hil and Barry do as commander in chief and with respect to judicial appointees.

85 Entropy, you column-busting link is pretty devastating to the 'Democrats are worse than McCain on border security' argument. There's hardly any daylight at all between their positions.

86

But that doesn't mean he didn't make the pledge either.

That pledge didn't mean what you thought it meant. Nor will any 'clarification' actually clarify anything. We're talking about Humpty Dumpty's here. Words mean whatever they want them to mean, nothing more and nothing less.

McCain's position is allready known with great clarity : He'll do whatever the hell he can get away with politically towards the ends of having open borders.

87 rr
It's not an argument of any kind.

Well that's sort of ignoring that those "facts, figures, campaign promises and voting record" have been stated many times by myself and a few others who endure your derision. Do you really require a long rehash of these every time somebody disagrees with your argument?

A rather thin argument, I might add, which seems to consist of:

"I hope and think McCain will govern differently than he has so far, and than he has promised".

I mean, seriously, what kind of argument is that? Like Drew snarked earlier, it's the unconscious rebuttal to Obama's hope & change tour... the "I hope McCain changes" argument.

88 Entropy, good article defining how the three candidates are virtually identical on this issue.

89 McCain flip-flops. Abandons "secure the border first." Calls for comprehensive immigration reform.

90 Well that's sort of ignoring that those "facts, figures, campaign promises and voting record" have been stated many times by myself and a few others who endure your derision. Do you really require a long rehash of these every time somebody disagrees with your argument?

I only deride people that purposefully misrepresent my arguments. So, stop that and I'll be civil with you. But claiming that that the facts and figures are on your side generally, while making a caricature of my arguments--and having that serve as your counterpoint--is completely worthless and not deserving of my respect.

As to McCain's backtrack on enforcement first v. comprehensive reform. Well, that makes the La Raza speech even more interesting. Doesn't it? Does he dare go to La Raza and be praised?

91 runninrebel,

Did you read V the K's link?  If not allow me to quote...

“We get in this kind of a circular firing squad on immigration reform in the Congress of the United States," McCain said, "and the lesson I learned from it is we’ve got to have comprehensive immigration reform.”

What happen to "The lesson is they want the borders secured first."?

92
What happen to "The lesson is they want the borders secured first."?

That was to fool the rubes in the primaries. He's swinging left now for the general

93 Drew,

Of course I read it, Drew. That's why I commented on it. It depends on what "comprehensive immigration reform" means in terms of actual plans by these candidate in this election cycle. The McCain camp could be planning a bill wherein enforcement triggers other stuff like fool-proof IDs and quotas of temp workers for certain industries (which I would also support). We'll have to see. 

94 I only deride people that purposefully misrepresent my arguments. So, stop that and I'll be civil with you.

Dude, I'm not trying to convince you not to vote for McCain. I'm just having a little fun, since snark is really the only way I care to deal with true believers today. You are dismissive of any reasonable doubts, calling them "straw man" arguments, despite their foundation in many years of McCain's actions.

Or even yesterday's actions (from V the K's link):

“Unless we enact comprehensive immigration reform I don’t think you can take it piecemeal,” he explained Monday, answering a question about providing visas for skilled workers.
“In other words,” he said, “because as soon you and I start to talk about the highly skilled workers, our agricultural interest people are going to say, ‘Look we need ag workers, too.’ And then somebody’s going say, 'We need the DREAM Act,' and then somebody’s going to say, 'We’ve got to enforce our border.'”

You like throwing around the "straw man" accusation. How good is your logic-fu? Do you know what it is that McCain has just done in this statement? What makes that defensible, while questions about his record are somehow just a distraction?

You've been needlessly insulting to a lot of people making good points, and I find it more than a little amusing that you get bent out of shape when somebody pokes you for making assertions about McCain's future actions spun from little more than conjecture and at distinct odds with his record.

Frankly, you come across as someone trying more to convince oneself than others, and if that's the case then I feel bad for you, because I fear you are bound for a heap of disappointment.

I'll be interested in your take if the La Raza meeting goes the way I anticipate.

Let's nail this down a bit though, just to be sure we know where the goal-posts are. What does McCain need to do to re-assure those of us who are concerned about his record on border control? What sort of "crystal" clarity should I be expecting?

95 Part of the reason McCain may think he has maneuvering room now is because so many Republicans gave in too easily to supporting his candidacy instead of holding out for a more crystal clear commitment.

96 You are dismissive of any reasonable doubts, calling them "straw man" arguments, despite their foundation in many years of McCain's actions.

These are the straw man arguments I'm talking about:

McCain is going to be the bestest thing since Ronald Reagan, believe you me, so just pack up your worries and get to the polls and pull the lever gosh-darn-it.

I mean, sure it's a little hypocritical that McCain wouldn't stay on the reservation and vote for Bush, but that was understandable see, because McCain was angry. It's far better to abstain from voting when angry, than when you actually disagree in principle with a candidate. Why, that's just racist and retarded.

Posted by: krakatoa at May 06, 2008 01:58 PM

I see it now, krakatoa. By gosh! You're right. It doesn't matter that we leave the borders wide open. It doesn't matter that we impose massive regulations on American industry in the name of enriching the global warming lobby. It doesn't matter if we have a Republican president whose entire career is based on making deals with Democrats to screw over Republicans. Principles don't matter. Facts don't matter. The important thing is... the guy living in the White House has a R in parentheses after his name.

Posted by: K the V at May 06, 2008 02:04 PM (PLvLS)

Nothing radical there. Just drink your Kool-Aid like a good Republican. Nope

Posted by: V the K at May 06, 2008 01:10 PM (PLvLS).

I am insulting to people who use this style of argumentation. As a rule. Drew and I have perfectly fine arguments all the time. So, quite your bitching. I wasn't even complaining about it anyway, just pointing out the irony of getting the charge used against me Broken Record.

97 rr: You do pick your battles, I'll give you that.

98 Well thanks, but let me take a stab at your questions...

What does McCain need to do to re-assure those of us who are concerned about his record on border control?

For those who have immigration as their #1 issue he will probably do absolutely nothing. That group isn't going to vote for McCain anyway. For those who are very interested in immigration he should do everything he can to make enforcement the top priority in his immigration plan.

What sort of "crystal" clarity should I be expecting?

I would expect a plan that has enforcement as the trigger to "comprehensiveness". I would also expect it to be developed over the summer with several back and forths.

99 Dang im losing faith in all those candates i mean he addressed La RAZA  a bunch of radical mexican extremists supporting the NORTH AMERICAN UNION frankly we dont deserve any of them

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