1 I caught the Savage show a few days ago for a bit, and he was wailing about this, a total travesty of justice put forth by the lesbian man and Christian hating CPS outfit. I am still trying to sort out fact from hyberbole on it, but ut does have a Waco feel to it at first blush

2 DRJ over at Patterico's Pontifications has a pretty long timeline/summary of the day in court.

3

It's hard to defend these people, but I do have a hard time imagining the state would kick the doors in and bust up a group from another religion (Islam) that practices polygamy and underage arranged "marriages."

I also saw a clip from The View (Amazingly, I didn't vomit, but it was touch and go for awhile) where they were mocking the FLDS women's fashion sense. Again, Joy Behar and Co. seem a little less brave about mocking burqas.

I don't know what all this means. Does that mean some religions get a little less freedom because they're weird looking, or does one religion get to break the laws because some people are scared shitless by them?

4 So...  what do they do with the extra men?

5 Considering that this whole thing started on a phoned in complaint from a person that the state hasn't found and can't even prove exists, I sorta worry now that CPS will manufacture any charge they can to keep this from turning into an embarrassing fiasco for them.

6 So...  what do they do with the extra men?

Many are booted out of the community as teenagers for the most minor of offenses (e.g., watching secular movies), as in Colorado City and that other town where they live along the Utah-Arizona border.  I guess that means they only let the "purest" men remain.  According to this article, many of the outcasts wind up as drifters or in jail.

An ex-GF passed through Colorado City on a road trip a few years back.  Said it was pretty interesting.  The polygamists built humongous houses, but apparently always left a wing incomplete, because apparently you don't have to pay property taxes on an unfinished house.  Funny the authorities would leave that loophole in place.

7 If anyone cares, I'm pretty sure I just broke the big toe on my right foot.

Because I'm a dumbass who was trying to get back in front of the TV while it was on commercial and got it stuck under a door.

8 Like the above comment, I wonder when they will be raiding Islamberg up in the northeast. But I guess it is easier to go after a group that doesn't have the guns.
This whole thing smells to me. These children should not be kept from their parents based on an anonymous complaint. Anyone found to have had sex with an underage girl goes to jail.

9

Nightline had a report on tonight stating that the original call from the "16 year old girl" may have been a hoax.

10 Posted by: Gabriel at April 18, 2008 12:28 AM

Did you cry or just swear profusely?

11 but the fact that the judge appears unwilling to rule on objections is a problem.

If it's the "freedom of religion objection" that you are disturbed by the judge's unwillingness to entertain, I would disagree.  That's not an objection, that's an argument on the merits, and an "objection" is not the proper way to raise it. Objections are directed at evidence; freedom of religion is not a rule of evidence.  Arguments on the merits are raised at a later time.

12 Alex, good point. Keep in mind the account is from a journalist liveblogging the proceedings. He may not have understood what he was hearing.

lowandslow, lots of cursing. Broken toe means no running. That makes me grouchy. Also, I'm a little sick of bleeding at this point. I've lost more blood this year than in the prior five combined. At least I have lots of leftover bandages and tape.

13

I have no problem with adults living in voluntary polygamous arrangements whether or not the state recognizes them legally. But for some reason multiple wife polygamy almost always seems to involve marrying underage girls. Not sure why this is - probably due to biological and economic factors. So that's probably reason enough to keep the kids in state custody while investigating.

And as Alex mentioned above, these kind of groups almost always result in tragic fates for the young men. The young men are competition for the older married men and many are driven out of the community to survive as best they can in the outside world without sufficient education.

What's ironic is that most women oppose polygamy when in fact it's actually a better deal for them. The get more and better choices for marriage partners - would you rather be Donald Trump's fifth wife or some average guy's first wife.

14 would you rather be Donald Trump's fifth wife or some average guy's first wife

Well, the very rich often practice a "serial polygamy" of sorts -- multiple wives, and children by them all, just not all at the same time.  Hell, people of moderate incomes do it too these days, but rich guys are notorious for it, and they can actually afford to pull it off without leaving a struggling single-parent family.

15 Well Maetanloch, I'd think most women do like polygamy. You'll note feminists defend Muslim polygamy.

It's a bad deal for men, and undermines the fundamental basis for Western Civilization, the nuclear family. Which allows resource mobilization among the common man. You look at polygamous societies, they all have poverty and no innovation as cultural markers.

I'm all for arresting these parents, particularly the polygamous men. A long prison sentence would be in order for them, I'm thinking. The women ought to go to prison too. I don't care if it's their religion. You can worship killer carrots. Just don't sacrifice someone to them. Because in America we put people in jail for it.

However these nuts are low-lying fruit. Muslims ... naw Texas wouldn't touch them. And the old hags on the view would be defending THEM like crazy.

IMHO any polygamists, Mormon, Muslim, Killer-Carrot worshippers, or what have you, should be in jail.

16 If young women got to chose their mate, which would they chose?   That old guy, or the hunky fellow just a few years older than them.   Would they chose to be the fourth or fifth wife, or to be the first?

So the young men *have* to be run off, and the young women *have* to be discouraged from making their own choices of mates.

17

Myself, I'm not interested in polygamy because I'm too selfish.  Period.

As for the mysterious phone call -- c'mon, you based that whole raid on that and now can't really pin that down?  I don't beleive that, how did they get the search warrant and all the law enforcement lined up and ready to go?  This wasn't one Sheriff who went up and knocked on the door.  So I would like to see the straight story on that -- but will we ever. 

I have to believe this all falls in that "just generally makes people uncomfortable" category.  All kind of nebulous as to what's going on, you don't really know, you just know you don't like it, darn it!!  

And as far as the older men marrying the underage girls -- well, if they're underage, the marriage then is only recognized by their church and not the State of Texas??  Is that right?  Because  they prob. didn't go to the local courthouse and get marriage licenses.  See, that whole issue you could just go round and round on.  I think at this point I have more questions than opinions.   

18

Take a good long look at how your government destroys a religion. Pretty picture, huh? All it lacks is the APCs and windy conflagration that was Waco and Janet Reno. Seems like Democrats don't have a lock on Stalinist totalitarianism.

What you will find when this is all over is that the state of Texas, with the help of the federal government (which supplied the military power) conspired to destroy the FLDS because it doesn't care for the Mormon faith. It did so using fake, non-existent witnesses knowing full well it would never hold up in court. Doesn't matter. Because the damage is done.

Is marrying more than one person wrong? Well, if you ask Hillary Clinton, she will tell you that she thinks men should be able to marry other men. You asked "Can a judge rule on a lifestyle?" The Supreme Judicial Court of the State of Massachusetts certainly seems to think it can since it legalized gay marriage there.

So, polygamy doesn't seem that odd to me. Is it weird. Undoubtedly. Hell, I think marrying ONE woman is pretty fucking stupid considering the property laws in this country. Are these people weird? Are they "throwbacks." Ace, you called the "alien" and they "creep you out."

What if I told you there was a religion that practiced ritual genital mutilation. Would that creep you out? Would you think they should be able to get away with that? If you thought I was talking about Muslims, you'd be wrong. Although some cultures in the Muslim world do practice ritual genital mutilation of their infant daughters, it's the Jews I'm talking about.

They cut off part of my cock when I was an infant. At a party. Then enjoyed a catered kosher lunch while I bled. How's that for creepy fucking religious practices?

What if I told you about a religion that so hates the light that it's entire "culture" rejects light bulbs. Creepy aren't they? Sounds like a cult, doesn't it. And yet, every time we see the horse and buggy of the Amish, don't we long for the days when life was simpler.

One man's religion is another man's creepy cult. Remember that when they come for you, because they'll get around to it eventually after they've burned all the other witches.

Our founding fathers are turning over in their graves. As our governments, both state and federal, literally burn people to death for practicing what is perceived to be "weird religions" on the one hand, they build Mosques with taxpayer money on the other (Boston) and invite the Pope to deliver his mass in government buildings.

Some weird country the late great United States is turning out to be, huh?

 

19 The black helicopter trollblog is thataway.

20

Our founding fathers are turning over in their graves.

Funny, but as I recall, people far closer to our founding fathers and their ideals had little problem putting the original Mormon polygamists in their place. There is not one polygamous society anywhere in the world which I or most people would want to live in. Make a list of the most miserable places to live and the polygamous nations would dominate the worst of them.

Probably one of the things that stands out, socially, about European society historically is that we never appeared to have much tolerated our powerful men having large harems, in the same way they did in Africa or Asia. I don't ever recall reading about a European king who had 100 wives in the same manner as an Ottoman Sultan or Ghengis Khan or whomever. Many certainly got some nookie on the side, but vast harems don't seem to have been much tolerated.

If polygamy became the social norm our culture would turn into a sexual arms race that we can't even begin to imagine. It would not be a good thing.

But for some reason multiple wife polygamy almost always seems to involve marrying underage girls. Not sure why this is - probably due to biological and economic factors. So that's probably reason enough to keep the kids in state custody while investigating.

There are about 105 boys born for every 100 girls. By the time of adulthood the two groups are roughly the same size due to higher male mortality. A polygamous society is not mathematically sustainable. So what do they do? Find any reason whatsoever to drive young, "misbehaving" boys out of the group. This eliminates competition for wives and, especially, competition for young, fertile, and attractive women. They're barred from watching TV; they're kept separate, by their own choice, from playing with or interacting with the rest of society. For whatever reason they often take their children out of school by the 8th grade, meaning that their children are all but incapable of making their way in the real world. So they become fearful of leaving the only society they even know.

Most polygamists will pretend that it's about religion, not sex. But I find it hard to believe that polygamous men feel this way. For them it's about having a large harem and creating iunnumerable spawn. In that closed society if they can get away with having a 15 year old girl then, in their view, why not?

21

A polygamous society is not mathematically sustainable.

The other point I meant to make is that even if these 50-year-old men didn't want to marry teenage women (which is unlikely, given what we know of their behavior), the mathematics of the situation would quickly drive them to that point, especially in the relatively closed off societies these places become.

22

Going for three in a row here: there is a large group of so-called "Lost Boys" who have been driven out of polygamous communities. The article below mentions that it's around 400. Strange, you ask, where are the "Lost Girls"? You know where....

These so-called "lost boys" would be a good place to start when it comes to testifying about what goes on inside these communities.

blip don't break the blog - TB

From the article: "His stated offenses: wearing short-sleeved shirts, listening to compact discs, and having a girlfriend. Other boys say they were booted out for going to movies, watching television, and staying out past curfew. Some say they were sometimes given as little as two hours' notice before being driven to St. George or nearby Hurricane, Utah, and left like unwanted pets along the road. Authorities say the teenagers aren't really being expelled for what they watch or wear, but rather to reduce competition for women in places where men can have dozens of wives."

This is not religious behavior in any sense of the word. This is about men creating vast harems and offspring for themselves.

23 The Houston Chronicle had a front page story yesterday about the local sheriff,  David Doran, who has had the Yearning for Zion Ranch under surveillance ever since the FLDS sect moved there in 2004.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/falkenberg/5707407.html

"Recently, when it was revealed that the sheriff had maintained a confidential informant who supplied him with information about the goings-on at the YFZ Ranch, the sheriff was under fire again for not acting on the information."

I also remember seeing in the dead tree version that the sheriff would stake out the ranch from a near by spot and watch them through high powered binoculars.

I don't know what to think yet. Obviously the underage marriages need to be stopped and the offenders punished. OTOH, the local authorities were obviously laying in wait for the sect. formerglobesubscriber, I haven't seen anything that says there was federal involvement in this, just Schleicher County and State of Texas law enforcement officers. OTOH, you have a point about the government going after this religion. They didn't go in and rescue the girl who called them, they went in and took away all the women and children. Since this religion has the money to appeal this all the way to the Supreme Court, I might not live long enough to get the whole story.

Just remember the rule of thumb is that at least half of what we're reading in the press is wrong.

24 Folks, I think the key is that the circus is taking place in Tom Green County.  It's bound to be a fiasco, and unfunny to boot.

25 lol,  anyone notice the ad next to this story is for the Morman church.

26 You know who this benefits?

Hugh Hewitt.

27

Rather, the way these poor folks seem genuinely happy about their isolated, throwback lives. The choices they make are disturbing because they are so alien

I think we should sit back and let this play out a bit before we rush to any judgement. I had suspected, and now it's being reported, that the call from the 16 year old girl may not actually be what it seems.

Let me say straight off that if young girls are being forced into sex and marriage, throw all in the adults in jail and let them rot. Statuatory rape laws should be enforced with extreme prejudice also.

If, however, there is no coercion nor despicable sexual exploitation of  minors...I don't see the big deal. I don't particularly agree with the idea of polygamy, it's not really that much different than a free love commune. Fine, prosecute them for violating the polygamy laws, but don't turn it into a sordid tale of mass stauatory rape.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that much of the fuss is due to the anti-religion bias of the media.

28 "This is not religious behavior in any sense of the word. This is about men creating vast harems and offspring for themselves."
Agree but seems it's more just about the harem since the boys are disposable.

29 So, who's up for a trip to southern Utah to pick up some vulnerable, naive hitch-hikers?

30

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that these idiots (the LSDS men and their female enablers) are guilty of some heinous activity.

1. Sex with underage girls. Girls who have not acheived their majority are not free to marry. (That does not mean that they can not, they have to have permission from their parents. This assumes that their parents are looking out for their best interests, which is not always the case.) Men who have extramarital sex with underage girls, whether willing or not, are guilty of statutory rape. Psychologically, mature men can wield enormous power over young women, which is why it is unethical for college professors to have sex with their female students. Mature older men who marry underage girls are guilty of sex with a minor, coercion, and a host of other issues.

2. Slavery. When one forces a person into a situation against their will, that amounts to slavery. These girls are in effect sex slaves. How can any decent American support any situation where a person is forced to marry, whether that person is aware of the choices she may have or not?

3. Polygamy. The Supreme Court established that the Mormon church did not, and does not, have the right to multiple wives.

If it were up to me, I would send these people back to where they come from. I do not want them in my state. 

31

If anyone cares, I'm pretty sure I just broke the big toe on my right foot.

Bet that hurts like a son of a bitch.

 

I'm watchin the whole thing play out too.  So far it looks like a gigantic mess.  IIRC, a girl cannot marry at age 16 or younger in Texas, even with parental permission.  That's clear enough.

32

Hey Chris,

As long as you're on boston.com, you might want to read up on the organized religion that ritually abused little boys sexually until the practice was exposed by its victims.

The leader of that very church is in Washington, DC today, being feted by our top government officials, and giving mass in our government buildings. Meantime, the Cardinal who oversaw the Boston diocese, where the scandal unravelled, is safely ensconced in the Vatican, instead of a fucking prision where he belongs.

So please, spare me your indignation at people who sexually abuse minors. Some faiths are setup from the get fucking go do do nothing but that. Ask any alterboy.

Every state in the United States allows minors to get married. Nothing wrong with someone under the age of 18 from getting married. For hundreds of thousands, some even say millions of years, a group of people practiced doing that very thing.

They were called "human beings."

33 So does the cult in Texas also banish boys?  Rely on welfare to support their creepy religion?

34

So please, spare me your indignation at people who sexually abuse minors. Some faiths are setup from the get fucking go do do nothing but that. Ask any alterboy.

Funny, I was an alterboy and I was never sexually abused.  So please spare me your broad brush stroke of declaring the Catholic Church nothing more than a child molesting organization.  You probably think that all female teachers molest their male students too.

The church fucked up in dealing with the guilty, and those who did it deserve to rot in hell.  But you need to get a grip.

35 Eeewww quote:

"'You know what the worst thing is?' says Brad Zitting (21), who was exiled for kissing. 'The worst thing is when you have the hots for this girl, you’re just like uhhhhn. And then she marries your dad.'"

Link.

36 Guess what, you can donate to help the Lost Boys of the FLDS cult.

37

"33 So does the cult in Texas also banish boys?  Rely on welfare to support their creepy religion?"

I would say that depends on the length of time the cult has existed.  If it relatively new it may not have reached a point of critical mass where young boys need to be expelled in order to keep the ratio of marriable women to men in their preferred levels.

38

Gabriel Malor,

You reference the FLDS women participants of "wife swapping". That's low. If you read the article you link to, note that the FLDS consider remaining "worthy" of each other grounds for compatability. When a man OR WOMAN "falls away" from the "truth", there are irreconcilable differences and conciliation is not feasible as they totally disagree about everything at that point. The one leaving leaves after the DIVORCE.

In America, divorce happens all of the time over the most trivial of matters MORE FREQUENTLY than over the most serious of matters. By saying that a divorced woman who remarries is a "swapped wife" really is low. But perhaps your rationale is based on Jesus being quoted as saying there is no legitimate divorce.

This entire approach that the GREAT State of Texas has taken is fallible. I do not wish to see babies absconded from their loving mothers by the government based on prejudicial rumors. I do not wish to see my great State of Texas (my ancestors fought to liberate from Mexico and organize into the wonderful country it is) in the wrong here. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and all those directly involved on both sides are subject to the toll of that highway.

There is no evidence of the claim that the state makes. Department of Public Safety Sgt. Danny Crawford testified to DPS's discovery of a church bishop's records taken from a safe at the ranch ... But under repeated cross- examination, Crawford acknowledged the records contained no evidence of sexual abuse.

Judge Barbara Walther decided to wrap this can of worms into ONE court proceeding on the rationale that serving individual children would be too cumbersome. She thought wrong.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but given parental consent in Texas, is it not legal for minors to marry at the age of 14?

There are so many American girls and divorced American women who sleep around for sex, I do not understand where the State of Texas thinks it is coming from in holding up an arm and hammer over these odd balls, singling them out. Even given the FLDS 3 or 5 pregnant teens, go to any middle school or high school population and match statistics. 

Gabriel, most teens today do not wait for sex until they marry. Why judge persistent illicit sexual activity justifiable but married sex not? Do rich old farts who marry young wives (parental consent given) have their marriage unrecognized by the law or society?

Again, I have consistently argued against the doctrines that distinguish Mormonism from Christianity. I have consistently condemned the fascism within the Mormon power structure, as THAT is the same whether comparing the modern LDS to the FLDS; they are both based upon their same patriarchal order as it descended from Joseph Smith, Jr. and Brigham Young. I have consistenly argued against polygamy. And of course, I always stand against child abuse!

But face up to what "we" are putting these babies through. Look carefully at the non-crime statistics from the FLDS communities. Google the stats from Colorado City, AZ for reference. They still have "community", though it be heavy handed in their own FLDS format, and they have near zero crime. I would imagine the same could be said of the YFZ Ranch FLDS population. FORCE these kids from their mothers love, raise them in the foster system with folks who think the worst of the FLDS, brainwash these children that their parents where bastards and whores who did not love them, force them as squares to "fit in" to popular culture's round holes, idealizing the likes of Britney Spears and Paris Hilton and drug them up to be like all the other children--I JUST CAN NOT STAND BY WITHOUT OBJECTING!

That Gov.Perry used his booksales as opportunity to speak against this sect, and used the day of their court hearing to announce his candidacy to run again, and dismisses the FLDS women's plea for his intercession is not worthy of the Governor.

That Greg Abbott uses blanket statements alleging "underage" this and that WITH NO SPECIFIC EVIDENCE, despite the Texas law that allows minors to marry GIVEN PARENTAL CONSENT, is not worthy of the office of Attorney General.

State child welfare investigator Angie Voss, who said women may have had [NOT conclusive] children when they were minors, some as young as age 13, neglects to provide the evidence substantiating her claim that is the basis for the state's case!

The state's alleged "victim" is AWOL or nonexistent. The alleged phone calls have yet to be presented as recorded evidence. The alleged perp was in AZ under legal supervision, leaving this case absolutely frivolously and maliciously fabricated hog wash.

If it is polygamy that the State of Texas wishes to eliminate, then stick to that. Should that be the state's case, they had better arrest all those American black men who have multiple sex parters mothering their babies.

 

39

I would point out that one point here is that sexual abuse of minors is unacceptable. I would hope that no one would justify it in any circumstance.

Another point is the freedom that one should have to make their own decisions in life. No one anywhere should be forced to marry someone they do not want to marry, even though I realize that many cultures arrange marriages, often against the will of the persons involved. I think the practice devalues people and is inhumane.

Another point is the cultural one. As Americans, we need to stand up and say, these are our values. If you don't like it, maybe you are in the wrong place.

40 Gabriel,
In your comment #12 above you say you've "lost more blood this year than in the prior five combined."

That leaves me confused.
Are you counting your periods?

/joshin'

41 But for some reason multiple wife polygamy almost always seems to involve marrying underage girls. Actually, it doesn't. Those are the cases that get in the news, though. I know a two man/three woman "couple", all in their 40s and 50s. They've been together for twenty years, own a big house together, and seem to be very happy.

42 I believe the age for marriage with parental consent in Texas is 16.  Of course no one expects consent to be given to a 50-60 year old man.  That said, for consistency sake, I would expect the gay marriage advocates to support the right to polygamy.

43

I am against polygamy, illegal immigration and molesting altarboys because they are all FUCKING ILLEGAL.

Those of you being apologetic for this bunch of loons and drawing all sorts of false analogies need to run for office AND CHANGE THE LAWS.

We are a nation of laws.  Don't like them?  Work to change them or get out.  Quit bitching and spouting silly conspiracy theories.

And just to be clear, David Koresh deserved every flame-kissed moment.

44

It's hard to see how the police could go in and arrest everyone indiscriminately or seize all of the children.  Don't they have to have probable cause in each individual case?

CPS where I live does nothing but cause problems.  They are ultimately answerable to no one when their victims are poor.  In this case they may have bitten off more than they can chew.

45 The left is at a serious disadvantage when it comes to arguing against polygamy. For years, they've been arguing for same-sex marriage on the basis of "getting the state out of people's bedrooms" and "as long as people love each other, how dare the state tell them they can't be married."

So, how can they turn around and say polygamy is wrong? Are they proposing to use the power of the state to tell people who they can and can not marry? Can they oppose polygamy on the basis of defending traditional values? Can they argue against it because it's just icky? Because it offends their morality?

Slopes. Slippery.

46 It would also be hard for a left-wing that champions condoms and abortions for 11 year olds to argue that their problem with polygamy isn't polygamy itself but underage marriage.

47

MM,

I wonder if you are seeing the reality here.

Polygamy is illegal. That it exists in this situation is obvious. When a guy says, this is my wife, and this is my wife, and this is my wife, then it is polygamy. It is also sufficient grounds to investigate the entire situation.

That underage girls are involved is also obvious. When young underage girls come out holding babies and pointing to some old fart and saying, that is my husband and the father of my child, then it is obvious that you have a need to investigate the situation. Why? Because it is illegal to have sex with a minor. It is illegal to marry in Texas under the age of eighteen without permission from parents. Marriages made in a church that are not accompanied by a license from the state of Texas are not marriages, which means that all of these old farts are guilty of sex with a minor, and statuatory rape. The State of Texas has been known to prosecute these kinds of charges.

I am thrilled to say that the State of Texas is not looking the other way on this. Arizona and Utah might choose to look the other way, but Texas is not. Good for us.

48 Can the judge rule against a lifestyle?

Well, when you put it like that, I would have to say yes (with the usual lawyerly caveats).  Remember that "the best interests of the child" is almost a defining mantra in this area, and it often boils down to mean whatever you want it to mean (for good and for evil).

Whether or not criminal charges can stick, civil matters relating to child abuse, custody and the like are governed by a much broader authority and sorting through those cases is likely to take a long, long time.

49

V the K is right to bring the Lost Boys of the FLDS to our attention.

Ultimately, perhaps what our society needs to renegotiate is the superimposition of non-original intent of the Constitution that determines our current practice separating church from state.

That our Constitutional government will not endorse one single sect as a national religion is what I understand it to read. Should America return to the original document (Urtext) now for the 21st Century, then we can negotiate legal censorship of a "religion" that promotes illegal behavior--be that polygamy or terrorism. But where inconsistency rules, prosecution based only upon personal prejudice or ease of attack rather than across the population evenly, there will be no justice for all. Unless my studies are wrong, for the record, overthrowing the US government is not the clear and present danger goal of the FLDS.

As per the Politically Correct, that is fascism wearing its masked smile. Meanwhile then, the public education system may as well serve its role in cloistered communities. Just as the modern Mormon LDS continue bathing their teenagers with daily hourly indoctrination each high school day in "Seminary", the state board of education could superimpose their own pedigreed educators and curriculum within the confines of isolationist sect compounds or communities, mental vaccinations against tunnel vision. I know, it would be too jarring for young minds; but less strident and abusive than subjectively removing only one nonconformist sect's babies from their mothers' arms.

Alongside sexual habits, where the Colorado City, AZ FLDS and the American Blacks also coincide statistically is as abusers of our government welfare system that pays them to persist in nonconformist morality or the lack thereof.

Along those lines, abusing the "modern" welfare system, I have yet to hear state's evidence in the Eldorado, TX case--whether the FLDS in Texas were economically self-sufficient as is their espounsed doctrine for us to hear, or whether they manipulate the government's welfare to pad their pockets in order to provide for the polygamous lifestyle.

 

50 Just as the modern Mormon LDS continue bathing their teenagers with daily hourly indoctrination each high school day in "Seminary"

FYI: Seminary is voluntary. And it's no different than any other Christian denomination having Bible study. In our stake, it takes place in a member's home before school hours.

51 Are you counting your periods?

Heh.

formercatholic writes:

As long as you're on boston.com, you might want to read up on the organized religion that ritually abused little boys sexually until the practice was exposed by its victims.

FC, it's time to find another excuse. The Catholic Church did not ritually abuse children. People can be understandably upset about the abuse and the bishops' handling of it without twisting it into a bullshit excuse to bash Catholicism. Take your lies elsewhere.

52

klrtz1 at April 18, 2008 06:50 AM (OO/TK) I haven't seen anything that says there was federal involvement in this...

Friday following the raid, news media announced 2 FBI agents on the scene of the FLDS temple. Four days later, the media speculated sexually about the church "beds upstairs", linking their speculation to information from the FBI investigators. As the FLDS rituals are concerned, if investigators are that interested, they should study from publically available sources including the Library of Congress rather than rely only on the word of biased onlookers. As the religious freedom element comes to the witness stand, the state investigator had better not fabricate or pad evidence. That would only make every legitimate case from here on out all the more difficult to prosecute.

53

Chris at 5:50 If polygamy became the social norm our culture would turn into a sexual arms race that we can't even begin to imagine. It would not be a good thing.

I agree, and add that the social norm of our current culture, loose morality and active sexual lifestyles, is not a good thing. Since our society's overwhelming liberation of the 1960's, promiscuous sex as the vanguard of "freedom", I understand that our national crime rate has increased 20% each year. We already seem to be experiencing a sexual arms race of sorts.

54

"I am thrilled to say that the State of Texas is not looking the other way on this. Arizona and Utah might choose to look the other way, but Texas is not. Good for us"

To be fair to Utah and Arizona, I believe that they did try to enforce the polygamy laws once before.  But news footage of police pulling kids away from their parents as they cry and scream doesn't go over too well.  I think its become a case of only getting them with polygamy when they also have another charge against them too.

55

The Catholic Church did not ritually abuse children. People can be understandably upset about the abuse and the bishops' handling of it without twisting it into a bullshit excuse to bash Catholicism. Take your lies elsewhere.

hear, hear.  Damn right.

56

The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the - Web Reconnaissance for 04/18/2008  A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.

http://thunderrun.blogspot.com/2008/04/web-reconnaissance-for-04182008.html

57

Chris at 6:02 This is not religious behavior in any sense of the word. This is about men creating vast harems and offspring for themselves.

I agree that you surmise correctly what polygamy boils down to.

"In any sense of the word," though, brings back the current practice of separating church and state that the Constitution did not write, but progressives put into effect. The affect of that effect seems to be a multifold problem. 1. The government has a difficult time interceding where a "religion" overextends its "rights" on the souls, minds, bodies and lives of its membership. 2. Meanwhile, SEX has become its own religion to our mass population. 3. The obvious lack of public morality within our government and business world thrives with the given "living Constitutional interpretation" distinction that binds the hands of a church to intercede on behalf of innocense and/or the public right to be represented and protected by the rule of law that itself has been corrupted to mean whatever a judge determines and revises it to read.

With that, I argue that the current interpretational practice alienating state from church has its marked failings as to protecting the ideal truth. Neither state nor church need or should be one identical entity (which the FLDS exercise socially/culturally within their Patriarchal Order compounds). Yet a state that refuses to appreciate its cultural heritage is lost to progressive obliteration of history, tradition and the relevance of absolutes to counter nonabsolutes as opposites necessitate for balance or well being.

I am curious as to the coinciding of Mormon events, timing the infamous Manifesto with the SLC LDS newly placed emphasis on geneology, tracking their own population as for the next 60 years traditions were perpetuated underground, not on the books (church or state) as families like the Romneys perpetuated polygamy beyond the official appeasement article that has since been revised in order to say what the modern church wants to represent "for the record". That prophet, midway point in their history, claimed the revelation that the souls of America's founding fathers appeared to him, begging to be given the Mormon ceremonial baptism for the dead that was performed on the church record. As per the coincidence of those events, should the FLDS share that 'prophet' in common, then the history lesson can move forward in a more congenial manner for these FLDS young children at school. But from the FLDS prophet portraits televised on the news, that looked like their point of departure. By their own rationale, however, there is inconsistency. If indeed they claim execising the true Mormon faith (as indeed they do historically regarding urtext) then what of the "direct line" of their Patriarchal Order descending from Joseph Smith, Jr. that required ordination by those in authority. Is that wording, so well used by modern Mormons, become phraseology at the time of their schism, FLDS vs LDS? Those wishing to do some serious journalism have a good topic there.

 

58

Circa (Insert Year Here) at April 18, 2008 09:34 AM (2n3bL)

David Koresh deserved his day in court.

The babies burnt and murdered by the Feds did not deserve what happened.

59

Harry at 9:49 It is illegal to marry in Texas under the age of eighteen without permission from parents.

The FLDS parents gave their permission for their daughters to marry. [As per the age, I've heard the number 13 or younger, 15, 16; you say 18.] Eldorado is not isolated either geographically or socially as is Colorado City from the rest of our country. The Texas Rangers, Sheriff, and evidently CPS agents regularly patrol the Eldorado FLDS ranch. If someone wants to leave the YFZ Ranch, good for them. It is wonderful if the State of Texas provides opportunities for Lost Boys and Girls to peacefully find security. But starting things out on such poor footing does not deserve praise. Finally, NOT speaking of adoptive families but of bystanders, I doubt that the self righteous onlooker would actually accept an FLDS child who converts to that onlooker's society as an equal, regardless of the convert's sincerity and good works, given the reality of social prejudice.

BTW, Harry, I consistently denounce polygamy, in case you failed to notice.

 

60 I'm glad you took that in the spirit it was offered, Gabriel.

61

buzzion at April 18, 2008 10:25 AM (Lrsi6)

Arizona and Utah have been after polygamists since territorial days. Utah, realizing that it could not remain its sovereign State of Deseret following the US Army entry, came to grips with what would be required for statehood. Hence, the Manifesto.

Arizona was passing grounds for the polygamists on their way to Mexico. Arizona as a territory and as a state never "allowed" polygamy, hunting and prosecuting and jailing persistently the men. Three state raids occured during the 20th Century attempting to deal with the family/children rather than only the fathers.

As far as Harry in Texas goes, it doesn't do to presume elitism a virtue.

62 ".... but the fact that the judge appears unwilling to rule on objections is a problem."

Oh, and what if the objection is bullshit to begin with?

Too bad the judge can't sit there with a pistol in her hand and state she'll shoot the next lawyer who presents a bullshit objection. Who knows, it might just speed up the legal process. )

63

The babies burnt and murdered by the Feds did not deserve what happened.

A.  I did not say they did unless you read "David Koresh" to mean "babies."

B.  The responsibility for what happened lays squarely on Koresh's shoulders becasue if he had the babies best interest at heart, he would have surrendered.  Period.

C.  What color is the sky in your world?

64 I'm reserving judgement until I hear more, too. The logistics of this are such a mess.

A couple of comments, though: Four years ago, when these people bought that ranch near El Dorado and started building, the locals, as well as the whole state, freaked out. We knew these were Warren Jeffs' people and what that meant, and no one wanted them to multiply here and spread. El Dorado is a very small town, and I was afraid that they and other small towns in West Texas could be literally taken over and turned into more Colorado Cities.

So that's one consideration. Then you have 16 year-old girls with several babies. Statutory rape and polygamy are illegal. I'm not sure yet if this is the best way they could have dealt with it, but we'll see.

65 Circa, your understanding matches the MSM story. However, Koresh WAS surrendering to the Texas Rangers, but Reno wanted her way with the tanks and federal bonfire celebration. The information is readily available online from all perspectives. I followed what the MSM and local news reported here in Central Texas where the sky is the most beautiful hue of blue you can find anwhere, and later that year spoke with a 16 year old girl who survived that ugly episode of American history who jolted my thinking from where you are now toward where I am now.

66

No maverick, my "understanding" is that when the ATF shows up, you throw your hands in the air and get your day in court.  That's what you say Koresh deserved, right?

Riddle me this:  Did the ATF have lawful warrants?  Yeah, thought so...

67
maverick muse,

An excellent book that can answer you question about the line of authority between the mainstream Mormon church and the FLDS is called Mormon Polygamy by Richard Von Wagoner.

I am married to a woman who had one of her family members join the FLDS church. This book answered a lot of questions and helped me to understand their sense of absolute authority and responsibility.

I would recommend it to anyone who wants to understand how and why the mainstream LDS church and the FLDS church are truly connected.

http://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Polygamy-Richard-Van-Wagoner/dp/0941214796

68 "Are you counting your periods?"

He took herbal medication to induce a miscarriage.

69

Take a good long look at how your government destroys a religion. Pretty picture, huh?

Fuck their religion. The government fought the Mormons for 20+ years back in the 19th Century yet they're alive and well today. It's not religion they're fighting - it's the behavior. I only wish the government had the balls to fight certain other, non-American religions this way.

If, however, there is no coercion nor despicable sexual exploitation of  minors...I don't see the big deal. I don't particularly agree with the idea of polygamy, it's not really that much different than a free love commune.

It is different. These people are deliberately keeping their kids - the girls especially - from learning anything about the world so that they'll be stuck in their backwater communes.

Agree but seems it's more just about the harem [not overbreeding] since the boys are disposable.

No, these people lean on society, confident knowing that we're all too decent to let their boys suffer. If they thought any different they wouldn't bear to do this to them. Or then maybe they would. See what the Muslim world thinks their excess men should do.

Nothing wrong with someone under the age of 18 from getting married. For hundreds of thousands, some even say millions of years, a group of people practiced doing that very thing. They were called "human beings."

First, I never defended the Catholics. Second, I find it funny that we use Ancient Greece to defend pederasty, then turn around and say pederasty proves that Catholic priests are slimeballs (would shitdicks be more appropriate?)

As for the under-18-year-olds marrying, I understand you. In most states it's still legal. In many states of yesteryear kids as young 12 or 13 could marry. It was a somewhat less complicated world, where everyone grew up on the farm and learned everything they needed to by working at their parents' sides. Today we recognize that while 15-year-olds might be physically ready for this (The Derb got flamed by the left a few years ago for saying that a woman's prettiest years were frm 15-20), they are not mentally or emotionally ready. Whatever you believe about the age of marriage or consent, they sure as hell shouldn't be locked up in a commune where 50 year old men can tell them they have no other choice.

So does the cult in Texas also banish boys?  Rely on welfare to support their creepy religion?

It's the same cult that was doing it in Utah, so, yes.

Guess what, you can donate to help the Lost Boys of the FLDS cult.

I'm not gunna donate shit to their spawn. Force the polygamists to contribute to their financial support. Isn't that what mandatory child support is about?

If you read the article you link to, note that the FLDS consider remaining "worthy" of each other grounds for compatability. When a man OR WOMAN "falls away" from the "truth", there are irreconcilable differences and conciliation is not feasible as they totally disagree about everything at that point.

OR, the prophet can determine that person X is no longer worthy of the religion. Oddly enough, he tends to decide that men are "unworthy" far more often than women. Then HE gives away their wives to the man/men of his choice. The man is forced to leave, with no property to his name because it belongs to the "church."

It's hard to see how the police could go in and arrest everyone indiscriminately or seize all of the children.  Don't they have to have probable cause in each individual case?

They have probable cause to belive that these people were engaging in unlawful cohabitation. Because they were.

 

70 Chris,

I agree with a lot of what you said. The main thing that frustrates me is the states fucked up foster system is probably worse than the system they were living in. Yea, they are a problem but is the solution better than the problem?  I don't think so.

The state is going to fuck up those kids worse than the FLDS can.  Guarantee that more kids will be molested in the foster system than if they just left them in the compound.

What can you do about it?

71 If this cult is living off welfare checks,  the checks will stop without the kids in the home. Damn right they want their kids back.

72

1) Polygamy is not a crime.  Bigamy is, but only if you apply for and secure a second marraige licence because its farud to do so.

2) Judges when they are hearing matters with no jury often take all evidence subject to objections and the objections are not ruled on until a decision is rendered.  Because they are the judges of law and fact (when there is no jury), this procedure is common.  

73

The state is going to fuck up those kids worse than the FLDS can.  Guarantee that more kids will be molested in the foster system than if they just left them in the compound. What can you do about it?

You may very well be right. All I can say is that if it breaks up groups like this and discourages more like them then the payoff will be long-term.

 

74
Chris,

Not with the FLDS. These people believe they have an order from God to live this lifestyle. They believe the only way to return to God, and become Gods themselves, is to be a polygamist. 

These folks are hardcore and the only way to stamp them out is either to lock each one of them up or kill them.

Many FLDS are living in suburban neighborhoods and you can't tell they are polygamists. It is impossible to completely shut them down.

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