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| Bill Kristol Goes There -- Yeah, ThereI had wondered when this obvious point, much discussed in the blogosphere, would break into the more respectable press. And in the Paper ofMy occasion for spending a little time once again with the old Communist was Barack Obama’s now-famous comment at an April 6 San Francisco fund-raiser. Obama was explaining his trouble winning over small-town, working-class voters: “It’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.” This sent me to Marx’s famous statement about religion in the introduction to his “Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right”: “Religious suffering is at the same time an expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the sentiment of a heartless world, and the soul of a soulless condition. It is the opium of the people.” Or, more succinctly, and in the original German in which Marx somehow always sounds better: “Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes.” Now, this is a point of view with a long intellectual pedigree prior to Marx, and many vocal adherents continuing into the 21st century. I don’t believe the claim is true, but it’s certainly worth considering, in college classrooms and beyond. But it’s one thing for a German thinker to assert that “religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature.” It’s another thing for an American presidential candidate to claim that we “cling to ... religion” out of economic frustration. And it’s a particularly odd claim for Barack Obama to make. After all, in his speech at the 2004 Democratic convention, he emphasized with pride that blue-state Americans, too, “worship an awesome God.”I don't think it's particularly odd at all, Mr. Kristol. I agree with NRO's Lisa Schiffrin: I now feel fully vindicated in my suspicion that Obama's attendance at Wright's church was entirely political and expedient. No one who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ — or even moderate respect for other people's religious views — thinks in these terms about why working class people might believe in God,Incidentally, Excitable Andy gave Lisa Schriffin a "Malkin Award" for that statement, and no, that's not a good award. The "Malkin Award" is, if I recall this douchebag's award system properly, for particularly egregious statements belying a hyperpartisan viciousness. If so, Excitable Andy ought to give himself a few. Perhaps I'm wrong, but isn't the Conservative Soul (now a featured book in remainder bins) much concerned with the claim that Republican elites cynically and disingenuously exploit religious beliefs for political gain? I'm sorry, is Sullivan claiming that one can write an entire book questioning Republican politicians' true beliefs in God and values but Lisa Schiffrin can't write a fucking 400 word blog-post about Obama's cynicism and exploitation in this regard? Then again, intellectual consistency is hardly a hallmark of Sullivan's hysterical form of discourse. Oh! Missed Sullivan's response to Kristol: A non-Christian manipulator of Christianity is calling a Christian a liar about his own faith. That's where they've gone to already.Heh. Sullivan just called Kristol a Jew manipulating gullible Christians for his own personal agenda (which happens to be much-concerned with Israel, of course). I feel so liberated now that we're having this "open, candid" discussion on race and religion that Obama Christ began for us. Why, just a few days ago I didn't know it was acceptable to respond to a political opponent by simply calling him a dirty, scheming kike. The fun we're going to have! And, as Sullivan points out, It's only April! I wonder why he didn't note that Lisa Schrieffrin was also a "non-Christian..." I guess maybe because he wasn't sure she was a Yid. It's one of those names that could go either way, you know. You know-- one of those sneaky stealth Jew-names that almost sound like good Christian names. Comments1
If Barack Obama didn't exist, Karl Rove would have to invent him. Or maybe he did. Maybe he did.
Posted by: DrewM. at April 14, 2008 10:34 AM (hlYel) 2
Eh. Last week Sullivan made some dumbass comment that Rove, Cheney, etc., should not leave the country because they may be soon facing war crime tribunals. Same to him: Sullivan shouldn't be allowed to leave the country b/c he may be facing second degree murder charges for his bareback riding activities.
Posted by: Guy Ritchie's Career at April 14, 2008 10:36 AM (G4Fgm) Posted by: Karl Rove de Blog at April 14, 2008 10:36 AM (5/uG4) 4
That Sullivan quote is awesome.
Aside from giving the not so secret 'beat up on the Jews' sign, it' also delightfully fact free. Kristol doesn't question Obama's faith in fact he specifically says, "What’s more, he’s written eloquently in his memoir, “Dreams From My Father,” of his own religious awakening upon hearing the Rev. Jeremiah Wright’s “Audacity of Hope” sermon, and of the complexity of his religious commitment. You’d think he’d do other believers the courtesy of assuming they’ve also thought about their religious beliefs." That's calling someone a liar about their faith in Andi's 'mind'? I say we start handing out the "Sullivan Award" to people who are totally deranged and make accusations up out of thin air. My first two nominees...Andrew Sullivan and Crystal Mangum. Posted by: DrewM. at April 14, 2008 10:44 AM (hlYel) 5
more succinctly, and in the original German in which Marx somehow always sounds better: Oh? Let's examine the difference.. Religion ... is the opium of the people. Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes. .... .... Twit. I hope you choke on a martini olive. Posted by: Entropy at April 14, 2008 10:44 AM (m6c4H) 6
Drudge has it up, Hillary now ahead in PA by TWENTY POINTS!! Put a fork in the magical negro, he's done. Expect to see super delegates becoming "concerned" about his electablity next week. Posted by: kempermanx at April 14, 2008 10:45 AM (ANRVq) 7
"You know-- one of those sneaky stealth Jew-names that almost sound like good Christian names." Just like all those Neo-Cons with non-Yiddish looking names (But we know what the really are). Posted by: davod at April 14, 2008 10:46 AM (llh3A) 8
I'm pretty sure it's Hillary's turn to say something stupid. Or maybe Bill's. I haven't really been keeping score though. Posted by: pendejo grande at April 14, 2008 10:46 AM (QvJeF) 9
Unfuckingbelievable.
Sullivan, for as long as I can remember, has been lecturing us on how to be "real" Christians and Conservatives. What a self-righteous piece of shit. Posted by: Bart at April 14, 2008 10:48 AM (T2rZp) 10
Drew, Well they DID find sperm in Crystal's rectum from multiple males, none on the LAX team, so maybe she and Andi have a lot more in common than just lying. Posted by: kempermanx at April 14, 2008 10:49 AM (ANRVq) 11
Sullivan's fucked himself crazy. Posted by: Sharkman at April 14, 2008 10:52 AM (UioS4) 12
Sully is such a complete joke by now he should just start wearing the clown suit he bought from John Wayne Gacy in the eighties.
I mean, in public, not just in the bedroom, where the boyfriend is tied up and whimpering, "Please, just let me go home and I'll never tell nobody." Anyway... The prospect of Hillary taking it all, and then having a Democrat president despised by the liberal press, is a rather interesting thought to contemplate. Posted by: V the K at April 14, 2008 10:57 AM (PLvLS) 13
Incidentally, Excitable Andy gave Lisa Schriffin a "Malkin Award"...... If so, Excitable Andy ought to give himself a few a lot all of them. There, fixed it for you. Posted by: maxxman at April 14, 2008 11:00 AM (OYeDg) 14
I heard the N double-C CP was hosting Rev. Wright.
Posted by: Dan Collins at April 14, 2008 11:03 AM (eNTGR) 15
Why is it that Andy presupposes Kristol is speaking wrt to bible-thumpers and not torah-thumpers. Doesn't Andy know about the Kyle Broflovski's in America?
Posted by: Dusty at April 14, 2008 11:08 AM (GJLeQ) 16
Jeez, Ace -- we've had about a dozen threads on Obama's last gaffe, enough to gag me.
Can we please have a poop thread to cleanse the palate? Posted by: Tinian at April 14, 2008 11:10 AM (1Mq7K) 17
"A non-Christian manipulator of Christianity is calling a Christian a
liar about his own faith. That's where they've gone to already. And
it's only the middle of April. What are they so scared of?"
Wow, that's classic "Blame it on the Jew". Way to represent for Catholics there idiot....just in time for the Popes visit too. Posted by: Rocks at April 14, 2008 11:11 AM (Q1lie) 18
I suck my own pathetically-tiny penis.
I wish I could suck someone else's. But I'm too homely and snaggle-toothed. Posted by: Lemons at April 14, 2008 11:17 AM (+Elxb) 19
"Non-Christian manipulator"? Andrew Sullivan has become a Pat Buchanan with a better CD collection. Posted by: David Ross at April 14, 2008 11:22 AM (GwV+j) 20
Way to represent for Catholics there idiot....just in time for the Popes visit too. Andy's left the church what, ten times now? Aaaaaandrew, how can we miss you if you don't actually leave? Lock the door behind you. Sullivan has a penchant for lying about his true positions in order to lead people where he wants them to go. He's not conservative, and he never was. He's also not, and hasn't been for decades, a Catholic. Posted by: Ace's liver at April 14, 2008 11:27 AM (eSqCK) 21
Ace's Liver must be a Jew: he just said Andy's lyin bout his religion.
Posted by: captkidney at April 14, 2008 11:31 AM (+pAnh) 22
He's also not, and hasn't been for decades, a Catholic.
I know, but he must have had a tryst at a Holiday Inn Express last night because he plays one on the biosphere. Posted by: Rocks at April 14, 2008 11:32 AM (Q1lie) 23
We all have a little Jewishness in us... the scheming part that connives to lead good (but stupid ) Christians astray.
Posted by: ace at April 14, 2008 11:33 AM (SXBHu) 24
you know-- like Satan.
Posted by: ace at April 14, 2008 11:33 AM (SXBHu) 25
Now listen to me, you smooth-talking son-of-a-bitch! Let me lay it on the line for you and your boss, whoever he is. Barry O will never get White House! I don't care how many daigo guinea WOP greaseball gumbahs come out of the woodwork! The Hollywood Jew Posted by: km at April 14, 2008 11:36 AM (mrk0R) 26
The sad thing is that Obama could host a "death to Israel" rally on the smoldering rubble of a synagogue and a substantial majority of American Jews would still nod sagely and say to themselves "at least he's not one of those anti-semitic Christians."
The Democratic Party has become a seething morass of antisemitic hatred, blatant Jew-baiting -- yet Republicans still haven't figured out how to break the Dems' hammerlock on Jewish voters. It's almost creepy, talking to my Jewish relatives; they sound like they've got Stockholm Syndrome. (The hostage identifying with the captor kind, not the kind that makes Israeli leaders go through yet another round of negotiations with bloody-handed terrorists in the hope of winning a Nobel Prize.) (Actually I guess there's no difference.) Posted by: Trimegistus at April 14, 2008 11:36 AM (Ya/9X) 27
We all have a little Jewishness in us... the scheming part that connives to lead good (but stupid ) Christians astray.
So when I convinced that good Catholic girl in college that she wouldn't go to hell for having sex with me I was just channeling my inner Jew? I love my inner Jew! Posted by: DrewM. at April 14, 2008 11:37 AM (hlYel) 28
Poke a liberal and youll always find a bit of anti-semitism, bigotry, and HAAAAATE underneath Posted by: TMF at April 14, 2008 11:37 AM (KTgUG) 29
Request Andy photoshop ASAP
Posted by: mcgurk at April 14, 2008 11:40 AM (Ri74D) 30
The Satanic scheming to lead astray *in general* isn't ours, Ace (everyone loves that shit); only the specific desire to ruin Catholic schoolgirls is.
YOU LEARNED IT FROM WATCHING US! And every time you go on a plaid porn-hunt, you feed the Octopus. Posted by: Retired (Not Gay) controlled this two inches of the media at April 14, 2008 11:46 AM (kCch8) 31
How about a nice piece of fish?
Posted by: a non-Christian manipulator of Christianity at April 14, 2008 11:51 AM (IVUjc) 32
I'm pretty sure it's Hillary's turn to say something stupid. Or maybe Bill's. It's not taking turns if both sides never stop... Posted by: MamaAJ at April 14, 2008 11:58 AM (X6Zdh) 33
I'm still not convinced, anyone has a reason to be "bitter" or even unhappy about the economy to begin with. Yesterday, we had the first day of really nice weather, so I decided to take a spin...From Spokane, on I-90 to Wallace, Idaho...Then, back to Lake Coeur d'Alene, down the scenic drive to St. Maries, on to Plummer, and back to Spokane...About a 300 mile round trip, much of it through rural America. Notables: Everywhere you go, you see American Flags flying. Almost every farm you pass has a BMW or Mercedes parked in the driveway, and a shiny new John Deere plowing the field. Almost everyone on the road has a newer car than I do. I treated myself to a dinner at Applebee's...A $23 rib-eye, I could've bought for $6, and cooked myself...The place was jam-packed. I see a completely different world, than that which is perceived by watching the "news" So, when Baracky talks about a bad economy - one that we're 'sposed to be "bitter" or unhappy about, I guess I'm not 'sposed to believe my own lying eyes. Posted by: franksalterego at April 14, 2008 12:05 PM (3KJ36) 34
franksalterego,
You can add McCain to that list of naysayers.... “Americans are hurting today,” McCain said at an Associated Press forum in Washington, D.C., adding, “These are very, very tough times in America.” McCain's nomination is the only downside to this election season. Posted by: DrewM. at April 14, 2008 12:11 PM (hlYel) 35
Speaking of the economy, I have a rough indicator for how good or bad the times are. I'm on the road quite a bit. I count 18 wheelers, particularly those carrying capital goods (the items used to make primary consumption items). When I don't see many of these, times are not so good. One could supplement this with freight train traffic, but this is limited in utility since much of the freight traffic is primary raw materials or primary consumption products. When I see lots of them, times are good. Just as the 00-01 dip wasn't that bad, this one isn't either so far. The proper definition of a recession is the length of time where capital goods spending drops relative to consumption goods spending in terms of volume of items as well as price (note GDP has nothing to do with it, but domestic and foreign trade does). Posted by: Hank Rearden at April 14, 2008 12:24 PM (eXk2G) 36
We all have a little Jewishness in us... the scheming part that connives to lead good (but stupid ) Christians astray. Huh, so I am a good person - it's just the Jew Inside Me that makes me kill hobos and not recycle. Posted by: Maetenloch (not a maniac) at April 14, 2008 12:25 PM (0AdF1) 37
DrewM Wins the thread.
That being said, Sully loses every thread for being a douchenozzle. And a bigot. Posted by: Merovign at April 14, 2008 12:28 PM (IaYDo) Posted by: Not_one_of_Hillary's_Shitkickers at April 14, 2008 12:32 PM (XjZZY) 39
It's all crap anyway. This bitterness is just something lefties make up in order to tell us how bad everything is when they aren't calling the shots. Somthing like 77% of Americans are either satisfied or very satisfied with their lives. Last year year satifaction was closer to 90% and those who were miserable were largely East-coast whiners. This runs pretty counter to the image Obama's selling, that of rural white men one beer from shooting up a taco stand. Posted by: spongeworthy at April 14, 2008 12:35 PM (a00go) 40
Sullivan is pushing anti-semitic conspiracy theories? Wow, he really is on Team Obama.
Posted by: Bill at April 14, 2008 12:59 PM (gh0dG) 41
Just got back from vacation and you can't tell me the economy sucks - 2 hour waits for Hulk... and last week was not a prime spring break week... I am refinancing and my house reappraised 35K higher than it was only 18 months ago and the rate is dropping another 1.75 points... Today my IT contract was extended another 6 months... Recession - what fucking recession? And I think Truett Cathey would be a little amused at BHO's take on religion=poor people's suffering... just try and get a chicken sammy on Sunday in one of his restaurants.... Posted by: Stephanie at April 14, 2008 01:04 PM (osAwP) 42
The proper definition of a recession is the length of time where
capital goods spending drops relative to consumption goods spending in
terms of volume of items as well as price (note GDP has nothing to do
with it, but domestic and foreign trade does).
Says who? In my economics classes, the definition was two consecutive quarters of negative growth (that's actual negative growth - i.e. contraction, not negative changes in the rate of growth). Posted by: Farmer Joe at April 14, 2008 01:11 PM (5DAwf) 43
DrewM. at April 14, 2008 12:11 PM Yeh well, When Johnny Mac stands by a Pus-Bucket Preacher, calling for "G'Damn America," you'll get my attention. When I pulled into Kellogg, Id. (pop. 2300, which, by my definition, qualifies as "small town") for a little snack, it was like the Forth of July, for all the Flags flying...It was almost surreal...Every business, every home has a Flag, mebbe' even two or three. According to Baracky, these people are faux patriots....And he alone is "in touch" with middle America. I think, Kellogg: ".....you, AND the horse you rode in on."
Posted by: franksalterego at April 14, 2008 01:27 PM (3KJ36) 44
Hahahahahaha. I don't care who you are, that right there's funny.
Posted by: Larry the Cable Goy at April 14, 2008 01:39 PM (3k3T8) 45
Let's have some sympathy; Andrew Sullivan is in the late stages of AIDS dementia. But of course, maybe he's just a lying two-faced asshole. Posted by: TexasJew at April 14, 2008 02:22 PM (edPL1) 46
Maybe Sullivan got the legacy hire confused with his dad Irving, who had this to say about religion: "There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children;
truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate
for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly
educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths
available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn't work."
In other words, Jesus/Yahweh/whatever is just a Straussian "noble lie" to distract the rubes. Talk about a condescending elitist! Posted by: kyrzg at April 14, 2008 02:24 PM (ehbfh) 47
Also, does "Paper of Retard" refer to the Times giving Kristol Jr a weekly column? Because the utility of throwing money at a crap writer who's been spectacularly fucking wrong about everything in the past...five years at least...escapes me.
Posted by: kyrzg at April 14, 2008 02:26 PM (ehbfh) 48
Oh right, Irving Kristol... the onetime socialist/communist who later saw the error of his ways.
Care to provide a date on that quote? I have a feeling it's before his turning away from that creed. You... did know that, right, smart-guy? Posted by: ace at April 14, 2008 02:30 PM (SXBHu) 49
What Sullivan said about Bill Kristol is disgusting. Not only that, he equates Karl Rove with a pig on his web page today (not a "pig" as leftists once called the police, but an actual exemplar of the porcine species). But as tempting as it is, every time someone makes an anti-homosexual remark in this forum it just feeds the Excitable One's sense of grievance. And it's almost as bad as blatant anti-semitism. Plus, it's un-Christian. Not that everybody has to be a Christian. I'm just sayin'. Posted by: word of caution at April 14, 2008 02:32 PM (8r/RM) 50
Oh yeah crazy conspiracy theories that Sullivan is trotting out. How vulgar of him. He is right about Kristol but does Sullivan really expect conservatives to read up on Leo Strauss and his views toward political philosophy? Does he really expect these schmucks who only read books of prepackaged opinions and/or ancient fables to read books like "Persecution and the Art of Writing"? On the back cover you can see the gushing review from Bill's dad Irving. Why would you even bother making such a comment when most people are not intelligent enough to understand it?
Posted by: Maimonides at April 14, 2008 02:37 PM (oDCMR) 51
This is just a PERFECT skewing of Sullivan and all those on the left who have for so long accused those on the right for being racist ect. It is simply delightful to watch their fangs come out and show what true monsters they really are.
Posted by: Rightwingsparkle at April 14, 2008 03:03 PM (GH6Vh) 52
Funny, I always figured Maimonides as a better writer than that. But then, he is almost 900 years old. I guess his abilities have declined with age. And, you know, death.
Posted by: Bill at April 14, 2008 03:04 PM (gh0dG) 53
Shhhh...I think we have one of those "elitists" in our midst. Everyone put down their Archie comic book and morning beer and read her sho nuff smart words.
Posted by: Rightwingsparkle at April 14, 2008 03:05 PM (GH6Vh) 54
Heh indeed. The 'point' Andy makes reminds me of how the lefties have used the hysterical: 'You can't be for the WOT or even comment on it if you haven't served in the military'. I'm not a church-going Christian but I respect those who do. Wasn't this country founded on freedom OF religion?
Could I be wrong to wonder if Andy uses his 'religion' as a cover for sexual preference? As always with Andy, there is great projection and finger-pointing that goes along with it and a huge problem underneath it all...A couple of years ago I wrote him a long email explaining that no matter how much he whines and moans about how homosexuals are supposedly discriminated against by small minded people, it's really up to the individual to accept and love him/herself; no public opinion polls can replace self respect. Andy's so far right, he's left and looney. Posted by: Christie at April 14, 2008 03:13 PM (XuKR1) 55
Duh, I meant to say: I respect those who ARE, not do.
Posted by: Christie at April 14, 2008 03:15 PM (XuKR1) Posted by: mrobvious at April 14, 2008 03:30 PM (apDYv) 57
The thing is, Marx' statement on religion is a lot more sympathetic and a lot less dismissive than Senator Obama's: Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature.
Both suffer from the same delusion: under my utopian ideas, religion will be unnecessary, but at least Marx is sympathetic and not contemptuous. Posted by: Christopher Taylor at April 14, 2008 03:37 PM (3+3kx) 58
Oh, West wind, if kike-Spring is here, can queer-baiting be far behind?
Posted by: trentk269 at April 14, 2008 04:30 PM (N421Z) 59
That's Obama H. Christ, Ace. (Although I don't know what the "H" stands for.) Posted by: andycanuck at April 14, 2008 04:34 PM (p+Znh) Posted by: Stormy70 at April 14, 2008 06:49 PM (Y+o71) 61
Maimonides is just Aristotle without the prepuce.
Posted by: Dave M at April 14, 2008 10:01 PM (itDem) 62
Ace 48 "Care to provide a date on that quote? I have a feeling it's before his turning away from that creed."
Reason magazine, July 1997, is the farthest back I can find it with a hasty and inept googling, but that's an article where somebody ELSE is quoting I.K., so I think the quoted quote is from some time before that. If that helps. Posted by: Stoop Davy Dave at April 15, 2008 01:36 AM (PF7/z) 63
Is this the same Bill Kristol that called supporters of border enforcement "yahoos"? Well at least they aren't bitter yahoos clinging to their guns...
Posted by: Chris Roland at April 15, 2008 01:51 AM (QKvFu) 64
Oh? Let's examine the difference.. Posted by: Entropy Religion ... is the opium of the people. Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes. *** des Volkes = of the common folk "People" as in "We, the People" are often interpreted by the educated (fore-fathers included) differently than country bumpkins when the elitists speak of themselves, never to accept those blue collar or red necked bumpkins. While stating that Obama has no leg of virtue to preach from, Krystol made sure to point out what Obama was saying to the elitists about the bumpkins behind closed doors. Who won't admit what a crock Obama is? The "redeemer" of the abused American is only the worst abuser of all. "Burn, baby, burn" remains Obama's platform, and the baby is anyone that won't vote for him. Posted by: monday 3 a.m. call at April 15, 2008 11:58 AM (1cbR0) 65
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