1

This includes ensuring that the freshman class is not 70-30 female, because that makes the school less attractive to male and female applicants alike.

I call shenanigans. Beta males prefer a reduced-competition environment.

2 Wait, they are assuming that a guy would NOT want to attend a college that has a 70-30 ratio of women to men? 

No wonder there is such confusion regarding AGW among academics.  They are really, really stupid.

3 It's a serious problem that will affect society for a long time to come if not corrected.  And it's not just admissions: the boys are not performing well in class or on exams, even the smart ones.  I teach college and what I see is alarming.  The K-12 system is failing, and boys are paying the price.

4 William & Mary is a public school, actually.

5 I would attend Mary & Mary & Nom University without a minute's pause.

6 ray rah VPI, HP.

I just enjoy the moral contortions education "experts" put themselves through to explain why all their breakthrough teaching methods are not having the predicted results.

It is so much more entertaining when the do that, than when they just lower the academic bar and let a bunch of failures through for a "good effort" and an "excellent grasp of ethnic knowledge" or some such drivel.

I, for one, wish to be the first to welcome our future female overlords. (overlordettes?)

7 Brad,
In my opinion it isn't the k-12 system, it is the parents.

I have a teenage son who consistently scores in the 95-99th percentile when tested, is at the top of his advanced classes, gets pushed by his parents into additional academic and athletic pursuits, and we have to constantly deal with the negative peer pressure he faces every day.

Boys are really susceptible to playing down their intelligence. It is not cool to be smart, it is not cool to excel in academics.  Smart kids are called geeks and nerds.

I fucking can't stand it.  Luckily my son is one short generation from dirt farmers and trailer trash so he isn't getting any kind of slack from anyone in our family, he will do well, he will go to college.

These boys who are spoiled by their parents who care more about being cool than actually parenting are the ones who are ruining our young men.

8 The whole education industry treats 'being male' as a deformity that can be corrected by re-education, drugs, therapy etc. No wonder boys are lagging behind.

9

Two words that explain the entire phenomenon of fewer men in college, boys & young men losing interest in school, feminization of education, etc:

"Group projects."

10 So the way to address the decline of men going to college is to create an artificial sense of balance rather than to fix the problems with K-12 schools and to fight the stigma that being educated is somehow "uncool?"

Typical.

11 uniball,

Can't argue with your analysis of parents failing their kids, it is certainly a part of a larger societal problem with responsibility, but the K-12 system is broke, and it is messed up in a way that hurts boys the most.  The same parents that let their boys be "cool" instead of invested would likely do the same with their girls.  I believe that the K-12 system ignores male role models, is focussed on feel-good teaching techniques, including "group projects," and is slack in demanding responsibility, etc.  All of this works against boys, who need structure and fact.

12

Uniball meet Tushar, Tushar, Uniball.

Yes kids are often too pampered.

But Tushar is right. Three quarters of the definition of ADD applies to any normal boy. Female teachers demand that they not act out but don't really want to do the hard work of discipline.

Typical punishment is loss of recess. One of the stupidest self-punishing things possible.

Note to teachers: YOU WANT BOYS TIRED!

 

13 Case in point: my 10-year-old boy just went through the civil war period in 5th grade; he learned more about Harriet Tubbman than he did about Lincoln; and they didn't even mention Sherman.  Turns out there were no battles in the Civil War, it was just a disagreement settled by poets and other writers.
I, like you, expect 'A's from him, and I get them, but the school system used to have a more demanding structure, and the loss of that structure and fact is devastating to boys.  And it shows up in college.

14

The whole education industry treats 'being male' as a deformity that can be corrected by re-education, drugs, therapy etc.

Is that what happened to Bart?

15 I agree that the system has let down our boys. But I also don't believe in relying on the system.


Fuck the system, fuck the feminists, fuck their bullshit education theories.

Sure we can work on fixing it but if you have kids the sense of urgency in raising your kids is greater than your desire to fix the system.

In my opinion if you are going to have kids, it is your responsibility to raise them to succeed, you can't pass blame on the education system or on their teachers.

I agree with Tushar and what others have said. Boys need to be exhausted by the time they go to bed at night, have structure in their lives, have expectations.

16

Maybe it's the curricula they offer. Guys don't want to major in Womyn's Studies.

17

Well there's no reason to think that boys (and not girls) have gotten dumber in the last 10-20 years. So something has changed in K-12 that is pushing boys away from higher education. It could be the economy, except that male enrollment hasn't fallen during other prolonged economic booms. I suspect the real answer is that school in general has become a lot less 'fun' for boys.

Normal boyish behavior is now considered borderline pathological and/or criminal. I managed to get through the system with good grades and no black marks on my permanent record. I'm quite sure that nowadays I would be on psychotropic drugs, in therapy and likely expelled or suspended. And this is just for the things I definitely got caught for. I was guilty of much more.

18

fuck the feminists

I'm trying but they won't let me.

19 I'm trying but they won't let me

Ha!

20 I blame video games.

21 I like how the article assumes that anyone against special treatment for girls is misogynist.  That right there is the root of the problem.

22 I blame Bush.

23 And Cheney. It's another VRWC!!

24 Parents share some blame in this situation, from surrogate parenting (TV, entertainment thru gadgets, day care, etc), to pushing drugs on them in lieu of an actual answer, to generally not giving a shit about their kids in favor of their own lifestyle.  However, never, ever excuse government schools.

Over three generations, schools have been poisoned by radically increased government intrusion and have had their missions changed from preparing young folks to survive and prosper in the world to some bullshit empty phrase like 'making life-long learners' or 'being a global citizen.'  Besides that, there's the dirty little secret that boys and girls learn differently.  Schools nowadays teach more and more the way girls learn, and decry the male idiosyncrasies of desire for competition and aggressiveness as too 'brutish' or 'testosterone-driven,' as if that's a bad thing.  The thing people overlook is that a huge reason why we see these results is not because boys have changed all that much; it's that it's working EXACTLY as its designed to.

25

This is all just one more example of how letting women into VMI isn't working out so well.

To hell with Tech.

 

26 We're all blaming bush, that's the point... oh, you mean the President.  My bad.

27 No Child Left Behind looks like a good idea on paper. Like most federal solutions to what are essentially local problems, it's a total clusterfuck in practice. In practice, there are certain demographics that are not challenged by the height of the bar set by the DoEd whatsoever and other demographics that find it to be an insurmountable hurdle. All kids are equal and goddammnit they will end up at the finish line at the same time by congressional fiat and executive seal of approval. Such egalitarian stupidity used to be the province of our friends on the left, but now it's public policy pushed through a Republican controlled congress by a Republican president. In practice, NCLB coerces schools to allow about 20 kids to stand around in the middle of the road while some poor teacher tries to get 3 or 4 of their classmates out of the ditch. And a lot of those kids kinda fuckin' like it there in the ditch and aren't in a big hurry to get out. There's a certain comfort level in not knowing what the fuck is going on. If you morons had any capacity for self-awareness you'd know exactly what I'm talking about. Bush catches a lot of shit for not being a true conservative and rightfully so. And NCLB was one of his first exhibits.

28 I blame the combustion engine.

29 There is plenty of blame to go around... part on the parents, letting TV and video games take the place of playing catch in the back yard.  Part is society and the need to medicate any kid that would rather play catch in the back yard than watch Cartoon Network.  A lot of it I place on public education and the lack of heterosexual males in the class room, especially the younger grades.  Chances are if your kids elementary school teacher is male, the reason he watches Project Runway is something other than Hiedi Klum is a hot piece of ass.

30

I blaim the lack of affordable sex.

It's like affordable housing, only sex.

And since I'm not gettin any, we don't have enough of it.

31 NCLB was not all kids will be equal but that kids will meet a certain criteria and teachers will be held accountable for reaching that criteria.  Our schools were failing long before Bush tried to do something about it, namely the conservative meme of accountability.

32 Al Gore sockpuppet is the worse kind of puppet.

33

1. Tushar is a Man's Man, oorah. Sires two children at a time. Several valuable comments here, but Tushar...the man. My hat is off, sir.

2. Take a look at the non-academic component of admission. The essays, goals statements and social-awareness ("soup kitchen") commentaries that have been added or amplified since the 60's virtually dare an independent youth to rebel and crumple the application, regardless of GPA or SAT/ACT. They are cold-bloodedly designed to weed out the insufficiently-feminized. And Hillary! needs more plumbers.

3. Nevertheless, my kid shot his way into a college that's only been co-ed for 30 years, admits four males for every female, guarantees costs will be paid off in eight years, and automatically gives you a job on graduation. At graduation. It's a little engineering school in the Rockies.  

34

"Why aren't they marching in the streets? That's the part that slays me," Delahunty says. "It isn't fair, and young women should be saying something about it not being fair."

"Women enroll at colleges in greater numbers than men."

Women and the poor hardest hit.

The article ends with the premise that boys are pampered and girls may be stronger due to all that unfairness against them.

Sweet!

_{Um, academia? Don't you usually use these types of outcomes to lecture on the evils of discriminating against the underperforming group?}

35 Schools nowadays teach more and more the way girls learn, and decry the male idiosyncrasies of desire for competition and aggressiveness as too 'brutish' or 'testosterone-driven,' as if that's a bad thing.

That's interesting.  I have observed that with my son as well. The assignments he struggles the most over in school are the least competitive, like when they have group projects.  They usually turn out where most everyone in the group relies on the work of one or two smart kids.

He hates that shit but teachers really eat that shit up. I think they believe they are teaching everyone to be more socialized and understanding of each other. What those group projects tend to do is create some really fucking annoyed smart kids who feel taken advantage of. 

36 I am the mother of 16 year old boy. He is a great kid and very smart. Not one of his friends likes school. They have been suffering through the process since rug time in kindergarten.

School is such a girl thing.

It is run by women from the top down now. Nothing that boys find interesting is covered. Competition is discouraged and expression of feelings is rewarded. And the schools are so into organization now. I cannot tell you how often my son lost points because of messy papers or forgetting to get his daily organized signed. How many men are organized like women want them to be?

Now college is approaching and he is not looking forward to the experience. He now feels that the whole process has been total bs and has learned more on his own than through school. And I try to bs him too that college will be different but I too have my doubts.

He will end up going because he will not have to pay tuition. However if we were paying we would have a difficult time convincing him of the value of higher education.

37

Woo! Everyone is agreing with me today, and even Entropy does not have a contrarian comment just for the heck of it.

What is this? Take a brown guy to work day?

38 Oh, and Thanks, comatus !

39 my kid shot his way into a college
I woulda thought that college would have better security.

40 We all seem to agreeing with each other.

Maybe we should open an Ace of Spades charter school for the male offspring of morons.

41 Doesn't China have an effective way of dealing with this problem?

42 I recommend any parent with a boy in K-12 read The War Against Boys.  It's a few years old, but it does a pretty remarkable job of explaining why we've ended up where we are with boys not doing well in school.

43 If anyone is interested I got a 1600 on my STDs

44

A lot of it I place on public education and the lack of heterosexual males in the class room, especially the younger grades. 

Good point, AD. It seems like the proportion of male teachers (never high) has fallen quite a bit over the last 20 years. It would be interesting to see how this correlates with the fall in male college enrollment.

45 But when it comes to private-college admissions, the law is murky, the process opaque, the needs of the institution primary. This includes ensuring that the freshman class is not 70-30 female, because that makes the school less attractive to male and female applicants alike.

Conclusion:
Males at private colleges = gay.  NTTAWWT

Just saying, if you're looking at colleges and hoping for a sausage-fest; you might not be what most consider "hetero". 

46

 And the schools are so into organization now. I cannot tell you how often my son lost points because of messy papers or forgetting to get his daily organized signed.

OK, now that one is giving me flashbacks. I vaguely recall being chewed out about a trapper keeper or something.

I don't really recall.

That was before I learned daydreaming about naked women was more interesting then daydreaming about sword fights, so I was probably daydreaming about sword fights.

As I seem to recall, all my elementary teachers had a hard on for folders.

I don't know. They liked folders. Lots of folders. Everyone had to have more folders.

That was also before I learned chicks don't have hard ons....

I miss swords.

47

I'm a 23 male and just graduated from college. I went to a smaller private college b/c I was told that the ratio was 65:35 female:male and I liked those odds. After basically teaching myself thru the bullshit babysitting-service that is called highschool, I took almost all male teachers in college (especially in science and math, yeah I'm sexist in my thinking like that). I found that they were much less leniant on grades and assignment and I'm better for it.

If only such logic would permeate downward, but we all know that feelings are more important than learning anyway.

48 Before I make this next comment I need to say that my wife gets 99% of the credit for my boys success in school. I try to stay out of the way and when he is done with homework I take him and his friends out to shoot hoops, swim, ski, whatever.

One of the best things we did with our boy was to get him involved in some cool summer programs at the local college (University of Utah). He was able to take a class on aviation and space exploration last year and the classes were taught by a teacher who worked with NASA.  That was one of the best things we have ever done for him and gave him a really positive experience being on a college campus. 

Boy Scouts really helps as well, but from what I understand they lose interest at about 14-15.

Fighting helps too. Martial arts, boxing, wrestling, whatever. 

49 Long Island - the whole process HAS been BS.  Tell your son to go to community college, take some classes in something he wants to do with his life.  Then teach him to read on his own.  Not the latest Clancy or Koontz - though any type of reading is good for the brain - but have him learn politics, religion, and subjects he's interested on his own.  Stay away from the Universities, unless the degree from that particular Institution will get him assuredly into a good job.  You obviously make your own choices, but maybe if your son knows what he's going to have to deal with at a University, he'll learn to steel himself from the poison there.  You're right, school nowadays IS a girl thing.

uniball - it's been an incremental change that has been implemented since the late 1960's, with its foundations in John Dewey's (among others) teachings in the late 1800's and early 1900's.  It's Fabian Socialism.  Look over to the UK and socialist Europe to see where we are heading.  You cannot have socialism with strong, independent, intensely competitive, free-thinking MEN.  You must incrementally socialize and collectivize them and since this is the exact opposite of the Lockean natural state of Man, you must break the instinct both over a lifetime, and generationally in increments until the result is reached.  Generations of men are incrementally more socialized and collectivized.  I believe women by nature to be easier socialized and collectivized than men and this is why schools seem to be teaching in a method that favors girls.  It's difficult to see the results as we are in one generation - you know, the whole 'forest for the trees' thing.  You must study the problem and the results over decades to be able to see it.

50

I blame the lack of a hearty breakfast.  I prescribe Hungry Jacks light & fluffy pancakes in lieu of Pop-Tarts.  No, I don't have kids, I just like pancakes.

51 uniball,
I remember my dad losing his job and having to receive welfare and the like so I'm the same way when students start bitching about "this is hard" and the like.

Good on you for demanding success. Children want to do well by their parents. Keep up the excellent work.

52 If I was still in college and my college had that ratio, I would be really excited!

53 At least Kristen succeeded the old-fashioned way - on her back, knees, or whatever!  I only found out that girls today have largely foresaken the time-honored tradition of screwing their way to the top, until after I was positioned well enough and more than willing to help them succeed!  Damn, why didn't someone tell me that before I worked my butt off, and got such a damn hard job?  Pushy broads.

54 Some great points here, and do not get me started on group projects.

Yes, school is largely feminized, especially in the Liberal Arts (Engineering is a little better, thank God). I didn't go straight into college after high school, despite being a certified brainy beta male, because even I could tell that it would have driven me 'round the bend. Instead, I did a hitch (okay, two. It took me a little extra to shake the beta-ness) with Uncle Sam's Misguided Children and can now see the high female to male ratio as what God intended it to be: a target-rich environment!

In all seriousness, for all college bound men, I could not recommend a hitch in the Service of your choice more. It works like an innoculation against the feminizing influences in our modern university system and instills at the very least some sense of discipline and can instill that most critical of components for success: a backbone. You know, the one they do their best to remove in the public schools?

Because, let's face it, the system isn't changing any time soon, and the current crop of "those who know best" only know how to lower standards, not raise them. So what we have to do is (for those of us attending) is change ourselves and overcome these idiotic conditions so that they can be changed when the current dinosaurs wander off to die.

Either that or make a few more school's like that little engineering place Comatus's kid is going in to. I hear there's a good one in Maryland, too.

55 Joanie,
Next time we have an AoSHQ sleepover, you're in charge of making me pancakes.
alexthechick is in charge of getting me a sammich.

56 School's for pussies. Hammerfighting, that's for real men.

57

One should go to University to learn about:

1. Hard truths of nature. E.g. Basic Sciences, Maths

2. How to design/build/create/fix something tangible. E.g. Engineering, Medicine, Architecture etc

3. How to run things: e.g. Accounting, Management etc

Everything else is bullshit. Anything to do with 'Humanities' is pure, unadulterated, free-range, organic bullshit. The only exception is Economics, unless you are studying Keynes.

58 Nom,
Thanks but it isn't me. I married a good woman.

I was kicked out of two high schools as a teenager because of behavior so I understand how hard it can be but I also understand that the only way to beat this system as a male is to take it head on.
If you want your boy to succeed in academics in this day and age he has to have outlets other than school. He also has to make school his bitch, dominate the fucking thing with his academic performance so he is above the fray.  The only way to do that is for the boy to have involved parents.

That is where a good wife comes in.

59 uniball,
You had the good sense to marry a good woman. That's half the battle right there so you can still take some credit. Just take it outside of earshot of the better half.

60 Nom, It's really hard to make pancakes while wearing a furry costume.

61 I agree that there's more than enough blame to share between the parents and the system.  The incentive structure is such that a motivated, dedicated student with motivated, dedicated parents is going to get screwed.  Not to mention that kids are kids and being smart isn't going to be seen as cool.  Add in that colleges are becoming diploma factories and, frankly, I don't see why anyone would try to receive an education.  Most students are smart enough to figure out the least amount of work to do to pass and then they do precisely that amount of work.  Needless to say, this does not bode well for a future work ethic.

What those group projects tend to do is create some really fucking annoyed smart kids who feel taken advantage of. 

Oh hells yes.  That never ends either, I cannot tell you how many times at work I get stuck doing something because I'm smarter and will get it done faster.  Last week I had to actually tell someone that I would no longer do her job for her as I wasn't receiving her paycheck along with mine.  I then got the teamwork lecture from the office manager that ended abruptly when I asked who I could dump things on.  I don't mind working as a team so long as each person contributes.  But when only one person is?  That's going to breed The Rage. 

One of my favorite things is to listen to my Lefty friends bitch about group projects and then to smile sweetly and point out that if a group can't finish a book report together what makes anyone think that a group will be able to work together for social good. 

62 Nom,
There isn't such a thing as "outside of earshot"....she will know.  Somehow she will find out,  she always does.

63 alexthechick is in charge of getting me a sammich.

Wheat or rye? 

64

Fighting helps too. Martial arts, boxing, wrestling, whatever. 

Yep. Males need to have an outlet that they see as masculine. Besides, knowing you can defend yourself builds self-esteem the old fashioned way.

65 And it's hammertime, between me and Tushar!

History, real history, like military history, is one of the things the university was built on, and theology, and philosophy. Are you kidding me? Universities need philosophers and rhetoric, as Plato needed Socrates.

And, quite sadly, most engineers do not require eight year degrees to build stuff. Actually, a very significant fraction of engineering positions really don't even require the training that goes into an Associates degree in engineering.* Certain positions require advanced training and knowledge, but Matlab, etc. have certainly eased back on that harsh requirement for many technical positions.

Case in point: aviation. Many pilots have engineering degrees. Then go through flight school.

The actual mathematics required for a career as a pilot. High school algebra, maybe. Arithmetic, mostly.

College degrees are to employees what benefits are to employers, a mush of "added value" that is neither necessary and often inefficient means of landing talent for the majority of careers.

*Require as in need, versus the bureaucratic check-in-the-box. On the job training provides most of the expertise, in the adult world.

66 grrrr

67

Do any colleges even teach Military History anymore?

68 Comatus, is your son going to Colorado School of Mines?  I've been saying since my daughter was born that I want her to go there - female students that go to CSM get treated like queens due to the crazy male-female ratio. 

Plus it's one of the better schools in the state.

69

Vercingetorix,

Learning History (real History, not the lefty bullshit version of it) is good. Philosophy and theology is good too. But face it, 99% of humans don't need to learn these things to keep the world humming, and to put bread on the table. These are interesting intellectual pursuits, as long as you don't waste 4 years, Taxpayer's money, and parent's retirement fund on it.

I would prefer to go through a trade school and learn plumbing/electrical work/Carpentry than learn "Basket weaving and its effects on the self-esteem of black sub-saharan Muslim lesbians" which is pretty much all they teach at most "Liberal Arts" programs anyway.

70 BTW, I agree that you don't need to study Engineering and/or have a Maths degree to be a pilot, but that does not make Engg/Maths entirely useless. Someone still needs to figure out how to build tomorrows world.

71

3. Nevertheless, my kid shot his way into a college that's only been co-ed for 30 years, admits four males for every female, guarantees costs will be paid off in eight years, and automatically gives you a job on graduation. At graduation. It's a little engineering school in the Rockies.  

Posted by: comatus at April 07, 2008 01:00 PM (sj/X+)

Congrats on having a kid at CSM.  That is very impressive.  What is his major?

72

First, boys are doing fine academically. Where they are getting reamed--and where the chichi liberal arts private schools are pretending to commit affirmative action--is on grades, where teacher's preference for nice behavior and neat work wins out.

 

Boys do better on all standardized tests. Most of the gap isn't caused by whites or suburbans anyway, but rather Hispanic and black low income kids. In low income schools, just showing up gets you an A, and girls are more likely to show up.

 

It's a non-issue, except for the real problem with teacher bias in grading. And remember, the schools that have this problem are the schools that sane boys don't really want to go to anyway. Liberal arts schools are a tad too precious for most people.

73

Most males should go to trade schools instead of college. And colleges should be required by law to supply the girls to weekly trade school beer busts.  

74 Cal, my wife's graduate school was probably 60-40 women or better. It's not just the gynocentric (heh) degrees.

75 I love how the tone of this article is completely different now that the males are concerned.  Not only is it extremely unlikely affirmative action programs for women would call them "girls," but the whole tone is one of "male students are just inferior," without discussing all the realities that might make a college a bit hostile to some men.

If you think I'm crazy, just replace "boys" with "blacks" and "girls" with "whites" and see if this article isn't channeling Senator Byrd. 

Men are more conservative, they are more likely to be veterans (by a factor of 13), they are entering a hostile environment, at least in many departments, to a lot of conservatives.  I know a philosophy professor at Texas Tech (of all places) who was sorta-fired just for teaching a class on Ayn Rand (not that I even like Rand, but it's a point of view worth discussion).  Veterans aren't too happy to be taught by draft dodgers, either.

And all the "male privilege" talk you hear... it's nauseating to some.

Instead of a discussion on that stuff, it's just that males are dumb, 'eh?  How pathetic.  Males are getting tired of education, from an earlier and earlier age, because they realize it's not cultivating their minds... they get bored.

76

I teach college and what I see is alarming.

You teach college and read AoS.  That is alarming.

77 I'm not knocking Engineering nor Mathematics, Tushar, far from it. I have the utmost respect for those fields. And I abhor the pablum put out there in regards to whole courses in the fields I love: history, literature, and philosophy.

We agree on alot. Education, Journalism, (and Advertising, Marketing, Communications, Art, Interior Design, Music, Theatre) and so on are dubious fields to get your degree, or even minor. They would best be handled with on the job training or trade schools.

That they are bundled together and funded by the major organs of the college makes everyone's education more expensive (with a possible caveat for specific endowments), dilutes the focus on the hard sciences and courses, prolongs the student experience (imagine a three-year bachelors without needing 30 credit hours in the 'humanities' or a four-year masters), and is frankly wasteful.

That's all.

78

Meh, at the "real" schools (i.e., engineering schools), the sex ratio is not a problem. At least in the "real" majors. I was always outnumbered by the guys in math & physics.

 

Good chances for me, I say. I couldn't compete against the run-of-the-mill college chick. But in the geek crowd? Yeah, I had my pick.

 

I agree with Tushar. Take the "hard" classes in college. You can pick up humanities on your own - I've read much more now that I'm out of college than in my humanities classes in college (helps that it's been about 12 years since I left college....)

79

I teach college and what I see is alarming.

You teach college and read AoS.  That is alarming.

I'm at a Big10 U, not Swarthmore; makes all the difference.  And I teach science, not anger studies.

80 Learning History (real History, not the lefty bullshit version of it) is good. Philosophy and theology is good too. But face it, 99% of humans don't need to learn these things to keep the world humming, and to put bread on the table. These are interesting intellectual pursuits, as long as you don't waste 4 years, Taxpayer's money, and parent's retirement fund on it.

Tushar, they're not quite necessary to keep the world humming and put bread on the table, you're correct on those points. But these intellectual pursuits are necessary disciplines for good citizenship, an informed electorate and defense of our Constitutional rights. Not disagreeing with you per se, just that I think that there's a bit more value on History, Philosophy and Theology than you've indicated.

81

>>anger studies

Ha! I call them Grievance Studies.

82

Woohoo! I finally get to be contrary toward Tushar. Even though I agree with both of him.

Learning History (real History, not the lefty bullshit version of it) is good. Philosophy and theology is good too. But face it, 99% of humans don't need to learn these things to keep the world humming, and to put bread on the table

These are interesting intellectual pursuits, as long as you don't waste 4 years, Taxpayer's money, and parent's retirement fund on it.

BTW, I agree that you don't need to study Engineering and/or have a Maths degree to be a pilot, but that does not make Engg/Maths entirely useless. Someone still needs to figure out how to build tomorrows world.

------------------

Learning History (real History, not the lefty bullshit version of it) is good. Philosophy and theology Engineering and/or have a Maths is good too. But face it, 99% of humans don't need to learn these things to keep the world humming, and to put bread on the table

These are interesting intellectual pursuits, as long as you don't waste 4 years, Taxpayer's money, and parent's retirement fund on it.

BTW, I agree that you don't need to study Engineering and/or have a Maths History (real History, not the lefty bullshit version of it) is good. Philosophy and theology degree to be a pilot, but that does not make Engg/Maths History (real History, not the lefty bullshit version of it) is good. Philosophy and theology entirely useless. Someone still needs to figure out how to build tomorrows world.

83

We have a few wimmin engineers commenters on AoS. Meep, Mrs Peel etc. I find that incredibly hot.

Did I mention that my wife is an Engineer too? Granted, she is CompSci, not a real Engineer, but still.

84

>>I finally get to be contrary toward Tushar. Even though I agree with both of him.

Entropy, are you accusing us with having a split personality?

85

Entropy,

I did not have just Engineering in the approved list. I also had other studies with real-world applications, like Accounting etc, plus basic sciences there as well. So your juxtaposition is not entirely fair.

86 Hey, you critics, why don't you just STFD and STFU. I have a bag of quarters I will bust over your scalp, if you don't knock it off already. Damn right, us brownfolk got the coin to knock a cracker the hell out.

So, what's up?

/evil twin sockpuppet of popular commenter

87 That was rough, man.

88

Well...Does it not ring just as true both ways, and isn't it validated by your own words both ways (such as admitting a pilot doesn't need tremendous math skills)?

Calculus has no practical application for airplane pilots. If he must do differential equations to keep the plane in the air we have no chance to survive make our time ha ha ha.

Just as Military History has no practical application for an airplane pilot.

So why teach either to them? You can say neither is neccessary - take a trade school. Leave universities for the rich elite lotus eaters. Or you can say both seek to greater our understanding of the world, which leads to enlightened, richer human beings who are wiser and more capable in general, in any endeavor.

Either way they both have an argument for either (A) being a part of a mandatory curriculum for all degrees, or (B) being tossed down to trade schools and such.

89

Seriously I'm not even sure the pilot needs to know the earth is round.

Does it actually matter? Practically?

90

This stick makes the plane go up/down, this pedal makes the plane go left/right, don't touch anything except this button - it turns the autopilot on, and uh, when the autopilot bell starts dinging don't land too quick. If you land too quick, we here in the industry call that a "crash", and that's a problem because well you'll die.

KTHXBYE here's your license.

91

I love how the reporter first injects herself into the story as one of the aggrieved women of past. Then virtually giggles her way through the story as she documents the plight of the boys, then ends with this:

That would be the crowning irony, if it turns out that girls emerge stronger somehow from having the game rigged against them.

 

Tee hee. Yeah that’d be great.

 

While educators debate whether there is a "boy crisis" that warrants a wholesale change in how to teach, [Hmmm…I wonder if something else might be a factor? Something not related to schools. Anything happen over this period of time that may have stunted the development of boys? Any huge, dramatic cultural shift that drastically slashed the number of male role models? **cough** SINGLE MOMS ** cough**]

 

 

92

Entropy,

I should have stated my case more clearly. I do not have a problem with studying philosophy/religion/history etc. In fact I try to study these things a lot. But I do feel that spending money on college should be treated like any other investment. If there is no job waiting at the other end that will justify those 4 years of expenditure, then one should not do it. The society can and does provide a livelihood to a few philosophers/religioous scholars/historians, but can employ lot more accountants, engineers and even scientists. 

I am not advocating that Taxpayer's money should be spend on Engineering schools rather than philosophy schools. I advocate that taxpayer's money is best left in his own pocket. But my advice to prospective students is to study something that brings home the bacon.  

93

Tushar I'm afraid you challenged Entropy when you acknowledged his lack of contraian postings.  Prepared to be contrared.

94

IllTemperedCur ,

I did not notice your post. Again, I am not knocking these studies. We probably need a Victor Davis Hanson more than we need a handful of Engineers, but we seem to be producing way more sociologists/psychologists/historians/social researchers/WhatHaveYous than can be gainfully employed. And on the other hand, we have a shortage of Nurses. And Nurses earn better money too.

Here is my simple formula:

Spend money to learn stuff that can make you more money.

Learn about interesting but non-remunerative stuff at the library.

95 I agree CJ.
Another beauty from the article:

"It pissed off the feminists and the misogynists--I got both sides of the spectrum," she told me.

Ohhhh....I had forgotten that the opposite of "feminist" is "misogynist."  If you don't agree with their ideology, you are a woman hater.  What crud...

96

But I do feel that spending money on college should be treated like any other investment.

But in this case they do not learn basic accounting, engineering, science, etc. etc. All practical things.

But none are all practical at the same time. You're saying, essentially, you oppose spending money on college to learn engineering or accounting or basic sciences too (unless you're going to be an engineer/accountant).

That's what I'm trying to say - the things you call 'practical' are only practical to 10% of the people learning them. The things you call 'unpractical' are practical to 10% of the people learning them. VDH has made a lot cash money writing books about military history, there's a market.

There's no point in teaching the accountant geometry. Accountants do not need to know shit about Pi acept (A) how much it cost (B) whether or not it's deductable as a job-related expenditure and (C) if you kept the recipt.

That's my point - if there's no point in teaching the Denny's night manager History, there's no point in teaching him Chemistry either.

Just send -everyone- to trade schools where they'll learn only what's relevant. Why not? Go back to a Guild system.

I'm going to join the mages guild. Because fireball > halberd > accounts payable.

97

Another beauty from the article: "It pissed off the feminists and the misogynists--I got both sides of the spectrum," she told me. 

Ohhhh....I had forgotten that the opposite of "feminist" is "misogynist."  If you don't agree with their ideology, you are a woman hater.  What crud...

Heh. Good catch Brad. I give the reporter (I guess she is, or a columnist? Hard to tell) credit - this is the kind of story that turns liberals into pretzels, grudgingly acknowledging an obvious problem while clinging to old grievances. It’s PC Twister from Milton Bradley!

 

 

98 Did Ace change the headline, or was it that way all along?  Funny.

Tushar has a very first-generation-immigrant way of looking at things.

99

>>Tushar has a very first-generation-immigrant way of looking at things.

That reminds me to edit one of my comments:

Original: Learn about interesting but non-remunerative stuff at the library.

Corrected: Learn about interesting but non-remunerative stuff at the free library.

100

Speaking of archaic institutions that needs them some revival:

Majoring in whiteness studies qualifies you to do 1 thing in life: be a whiteness studies professor.

Everything you learn about these studies is only applicable in your life in the task of teaching other people. It's like a form of super-specialized polemicism.

These people need a master/apprentice system. Every whiteness studies professor should have just 1 student he teaches everything he knows for like 30 years, and then passes on his tenure when he retires.

101

YESSSSSS!!!

You go boy!  Down with the matriarchy!!!!  Woo hooo!!!

 

I WILL NOT BE ASHAMED OF MY PENIS!!!

 

 

102

Proposed protest chant:

To be a man you must have honor and a penis!

103 "To be a man you must have honor and a penis!"

Now now, you're oppressing that guy on Oprah who's having a baby. It is his RIGHT to both be a man (legally) and yet carry a child to term in his internal female sexual organs...

When did allowing the Law to be changed in order to cease reflecting Reality ever become a good idea?

Incidentally, Aerospace Engineering student. It's interesting, but hard. Mainly because of the crapass way the course is structured, rather than actual information.

Being dyslexic and potentially Aspergic doesn't help either. Group projects are a son of a bitch when you're aspie, no-one wants to work with you.

104 The Penis Monologues!!

105 alexthechick,
Surprise me on the bread issue. I trust your judgment.

Ralph L,
There is more than one university professor posting at AoSHQ.

106

Anyone ever notice there's no such thing as recess anymore? After first grade it's a rarity.

Kids have P.E. every 6 days, not once a week and don't get to run around at lunch either and then they wonder why the kids (especially boys) are fidgety.

Kids need to get their wiggles out, but instead, how bout we put them on drugs to calm them down? It's a damn shame.

107 PJM for NEA President!

108 As the father of an 8 yr. old boy, I can agree with most of what has been said on this thread. With the exception of the recommendation that their sons attend  or apprentice in the trades. My mom is an academic and is under the impression that plumbers and other people in the building trades drive Mercedes. I'TS NOT TRUE. I've worked in the building trades for 30 yrs. Real wages have gone down significantly since I started in the 70's. This trend has accelerated with the influx of illegal immigrant workers , at least here in the south. Tushar and others, send your kids to college! Outside of the fact that I built and maintain my own house I don't recommend going the route that I chose. Being a 52 yr. old carpenter is kinda tough. Be thankful for your cubicles morons.

109 There's no point in teaching the accountant geometry. Accountants do not need to know shit about Pi acept (A) how much it cost (B) whether or not it's deductable as a job-related expenditure and (C) if you kept the recipt.

Um, not particularly geometry related, but it's probably nice to know how how to calculate the mortgage interest on a loan in case the calculator/computer breaks.

Based on some limited exposure to conducting job interviews, I fear for *every* kid coming out of the schools today.  Most of them are not even 25 percent as smart as they think they are.  How many cashiers nowadays can't make change without looking at the register monitor?

110

Typical punishment is loss of recess. One of the stupidest self-punishing things possible.

PJM for NEA President!

Ha, sorry captkidney! I didn't see your earlier comment.

It baffles me that they took recess out to fit more academia in. So kids sit and eat their (oftentimes) sweet snacks at their desks and then get right back to work. 

Then instead of actually getting more academics in, the teachers spend their time disciplining the hyper kids.

111

When I was in school in the 70's, daily PE was a state requirement up through 10th grade.  We had a POW's son in my 6th grade--he was hyper and raunchy.  When his dad came back, his parents divorced almost immediately.

 

112

My son's a senior at a small mid-western college. They're almost at that "tipping point", where it will be considered that the percetage of women students is too high. At a meeting last fall, those who have to determine who will be accepted said they are now admitting men that they would ordinarily reject, so that the ratio is what they deem acceptable. Which puts a fair number of the men in classes in which they can't compete.

Comments were made that there are fewer men applying to college because they see women getting pushed ahead of them in high school and, something I'd never considered, men have more skills in areas that get them jobs without a college degree.

113

<i>(overlordettes?)
<i>

 

Overladies.

114

Overladies.

I don't know why, but.....

Bunk!

115

^{Bros Before Hos}

Send a runner off to Jack M. immediately!

Being one of the few Morons in college, cause somehow Ace attracts the 40 year-old has-been stoner crowd, I can only say this:

Based on how females, correction, "females" look nowadays, we need that gender gap.

116

I thought I'd given way too many clues about that little engineering school in the Rockies. Um, look up what cadets in the Academies call each other's schools.

Annapolis and West Point (not to mention any engineering schools in the Rockies) are dead serious about their humanities curricula. You can't major in philosophy there (but, as a philosophy grad who's read their catalogues, I can say it is a quality program); they are, however, the only colleges where you can get a Bachelor of Science degree in history or English.

There is nothing it's safe not to know. If a lot of schools have damn-fool courses in their humanities departments now, that's our fault for letting enemy interests build nests there--and they are doing immeasurable damage to our culture by getting away with it. It is culturally unsafe to rely on engineers or scientists who have not learned the lessons of philosophy and literature. It's even more perilous to let the next generation of a country's intellectuals stew in poison. This can be changed, and we won't be getting our country back until we do it. There are some islands of sanity out there.

For those who advocate a return to a guild system: there's a reason it's called a Master's degree. Universities are guilds. These state trade schools we're running are a sort of simulacrum (with advantages) of a real university. Not long ago, you could be admitted to the practice of law or engineering by "reading" in the subject and taking an exam--no college required. Most current engineers and attorneys would say that, to practice competently, you need the guidance of masters. The same holds true for literature and philosophy: just as you probably won't pick up the fine points of engineering by driving your car, going to the library and reading a book allows you to enjoy the product, not understand how it was designed and built. Yep, lots of crappy books out now, but some of the cars (computer systems/buildings/highway bridges) aren't much to inspire, either. 

Right through the 60's, future business executives majored in the humanities, and were expected to have learned something by doing so. I leave it to your judgment whether two generations of mass-produced MBA's have shown finer sensibilities in shaping and planning business ventures.

 

117 I'm not sure how it works anywhere else, but here in Britain, a Honours degree in Engineering still requires three years of actual work experience before you can apply for Chartered status, which is what you really need to be considered competant. A Masters is considered to count as one of those years, so even after that you need a further two. I'm just working on qualifying for the Masters now.

118

PJM, no need to apologize, attacking the stupidity of today's trends in education bears repeating and repeating again.

I'm not sure the actual motive behind taking recess is to teach more: the predominately female teacher corp seems not to enjoy the unorganised play and supervision duties.

 

 

Plus, it gives them more time to have my boys make fake flowers out of pens!

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