1 It's not a put-on. If you read the comments, they're entirely serious.

2 I genuinely hope you're getting punkd. I really, really do.

3 I wonder if it's too late to help this poor woman.

4 Watch the show here, including the pilot.  It's really a great show.

5 From the comments, the author's definition of rape:

"I believe in the radical feminist definition of rape. That is that men who pressure women into sex are rapists. That women who are pressured are not freely consenting and are therefore being raped. There have been a few discussions recently in the rad fem blogosphere debating whether all male initiated sex is rape, given that women are politically, socially and economically subordinate to men. So, in my understanding of Joss Whedon as a rapist is hinges on my definition of rape. I would argue that most 'sex' between men and women, in the contemporary 'sex-positive', pornographic, male-supremacist culture, is rape."

I have no words.

6 I do:

Bunk.

7 I could stand to hear it a bit more myself.

8 I was wondering if anyone else read the comments.  My two favorites are where she accuses Joss Whedon of raping his wife:

I feel awful for Joss Whedon's wife. From what I've read about him and the interviews I've watched, I'm fairly certain that he rapes his wife and abuses her in various other ways. I honestly can't think of anything worse than living with a man like Joss who thinks of women like the way he portrays in his tv shows. How awful. The comment about the money was meant to be about how I personally could see no benefit from being with a man like Joss OTHER than money. Joss uses and abuses her. Probably rapes her and thinks of women as whores etc, etc. Obviously, Ms Whedon has her own reasons for staying. Fear, patriarchal concepts of love, etc. But I would argue that she gives everything and gets nothing. Money is the only concrete thing that she could possibly gain. But as I said money is worth nothing compared with self-integrity, self-esteem, love (sister/lesbian/gynaffectionate love) etc. So she still loses out. Poor woman.

I support women but not their choices. Choice for women is not the same as self-determiniation. I support women to become self-centering and self-determinining. I do not support their patriarchally constricted 'choices'.

and where she tells the one person who questions her analysis that any future pro-prostitution posts will be deleted.  The comment:

I'm sorry, I have to disagree. Firstly I think that's the laziest interpretation of Whedon's work I ever read. It reads of a person who refuses to leave their biased nature behind and has watched with a view to hate it regardless of its content. I'm not even sure you watched the whole series properly, or gave it any time.

To go into a rebuttle of your tedious points would take longer than I have. However taking one to emphasise my point; Inara's career as a companion is fraught with problems, as Whedon points out. She is less akin to a prostitue and more akin to a courtesan - a highly educated woman who does sleep with men, but is not simply a walking vagina sold into slavery and raped continously, as you suggest. Whedon is also careful to point out that she has not been sold into sexual slavery. She choses her clients (and whether to accept clients), dines with them, teaches them and companies them to balls. She is given the chance to give up being a companion and refuses. Whedon's depiction of the companion shows that no matter how unionised and careful the women may be, there are always problems (such as the treatment Inara endures at the Ball).

I am however disapointed that you have not bothered to detail the character of Jayne.

You know who this reminds me of is the Deb Frisch.  Did she get access to the Live Journal in whatever prison / insane asylum she is in?

9 Apparently her comments moderation policy also bans anything that is:

pro-porn
pro-prostitution
woman-blaming
racist
misogynist
lesbophobic
pro-capitalist
…or otherwise woman-hating

The one that really amuses me is "pro-capitalist." As an economist, I just have to laugh...

10

"I support women's choices - as long as they are exactly the same choices I would make."

You've come backwards a long way, baby.

11 I would like to quote a line from "The Venture Brothers" to the author of that piece:

"Being out of your box isn't a right, it's a privilege. Do you want to go back in your box?"

But something tells me she'll just twist it into some kind of abusively sexist remark.

P.S. Ace, remember to subscribe to her newsletter.

12 So basically if you don't agree with her 100% then you are banned.  Nice intellectual diversity / growth.  I noticed that she said that she had never seen a happy heterosexual couple or a happy relationship between a white man and a black woman, it seems to me that borders right on racism, but I guess she can't ban herself.

13 Maybe we should all go comment on her journal that we find her views intriguing and would like to subscribe to her newsletter. 

14

I got about 3/4 of the way through the comments and gave up. This is one truly sick human being who must live solely in the insular cocoon of academia.

The thing that made me the most inclined to roll my eyes was the discussion of happy, healthy, hetero relationships (with interracial relationships as a subset of that).

Three of the couples that my wife and I regard ourselves as closest to are interracial... happy, child-bearing, successful... but I have a feeling that the author's take on that subject is colored (pardon the pun) by her being surrounded by miserable people identical to herself.

tmi3rd

15 Good stuff! Couldn't-a said it better myself.

16 I'm here for the gynaffectionate love.

17 Can we just duct tape her mouth and dump her in the hold for a month?

18 head/desk head/desk head/desk head/desk

She means it.  Boy howdy does she mean it.  I have the great misfortune of having been involved in run ins with her before and she's.  Unique.  Not to say freaking nuts.  In the bad, non-life affirming way. 

Now, as a Buffy fan, I do agree that Joss Whedon's Girl Power! has been way way WAY oversold.  But that right there is idiotic. 

19 I'll trade ya my gun for her.

Not permanent-like.  For just an hour.

20

Alex-

You've encountered her on other blogs? Do tell.

tmi3rd

21

You've encountered her on other blogs? Do tell.

Indeed. Is it a small Internet or what?

22 The t^ub_es... connect!

23

Someone, you can get surgery done for that and not have to worry about that anymore...

tmi3rd

24 Sounds like she needs a big, stiff...

25

Zoe's a cypher?  Oh, it's on, bitch!  Just because she doesn't burst into tears or freak out over every little thing doesn't make her an android.  It makes her understated.  And nuanced.  And the fact that she's so generally competent and still defers to Mal lends to the notion that there's more to Mal than the goofiness and bad luck. 

Uh... sorry to geek out, there.  Something unexpected was exposed kicking over that particular rock in my id...

26 You've encountered her on other blogs? Do tell.

She and I move somewhat in the same fandom circles on LJ and we've had some fairly heated arguments in the past.  She's incapable of arguing in good faith and she's created quite a bit of trouble for other friends of mine. 

The amusing part about this for me is that I spent a good hour or so earlier tonight on AIM discussing this very essay.  Or, well, mocking might be a better term than discussing. 

27 cautiously,

What's Zoe's defining trait?

28 Oddly enough, I found the end of Buffy, which I happened to catch one night, I had long since stopped watching regularly, disgustingly pro-feminist. I mean wrongly so.

Spoilers, if anyone cares...

So, we have a teenage witch who is somehow more capable and powerful on her own than an entire coven of the past's most powerful and learned practitioners, presumably older and with much more experience than her... why? Did I miss some reason given, or is it just a mighty triumph for the feminine mystique?

And then, every, EVERY, appropriate women in the world gains Slayer powers. Strength, speed, coordination... the whole works... We get a scene of a girl who presumably has been, or is about to be, abused/raped getting a sudden look of power-induced confidence in her eyes, among others. Cause, y'know, there could be no negative repercussions to such a happening, right? All women are inherently peaceful, well-adjusted and disciplined, right? There wouldn't be opportunists using their new powers to take everything they could from anyone they wanted, that's just a male thing. There wouldn't be vigilantes and gangs roving, looking to avenge past slights and grievances, real or imagined, spurred by justified feelings or the paranoia of "sisters" like the authoress here, that's just a male thing...

Odd how you remember what pisses you off quite so much, isn't it? And yeah, I freely admit that my own anger crosses rational bounds on this subject. But that's the crux, I know it and admit it. I'm well aware of why it's irrational, and it rarely impacts my daily life. And yet, I just can't seem to kill it off entirely, because I keep encountering shit like this that breathes new, and dare I say even somewhat justified, life into the flames...

29

Fascinating. Another Deb Frisch wannabee, evidently...

tmi3rd

30 What fandom circles are those?  I want to mock her.  Of course I'm not very smart so my mocking would mainly consist of all caps YOU SUCK every 5 seconds, but I'm sure she would take it in the loving and humorous spirit in which it was intended.

31

Elydo-

Don't I know it. My wife's predecessor was a true man-hater (don't ask me how we got together, I still don't know) and blamed anything that happened badly for her on men (namely, me)... for example, her grades going into the shitter in grad school.

Funny... she was diagnosed schizophrenic and bipolar about three months before we broke up...

tmi3rd

32 "So you will forgive me for believing that the character, Wash, is a rapist and an abuser, particularly considering that he treats Zoe like an object and possession."

Actually, no. No, I don't think I will.

I have few buttons. Those I do are large, bright red and unleash local apocalypse. This would be one of the top three, in combination with maintained irrationality and power-obsessed narcissists. Examples, militant anti-war protesters, anarchists who bleat for police protection when under threat from someone stronger, and seemingly, democratic politicians...

33 Zoe has an incredibly important role.   She humanizes Mal.

This is simple.   The brilliance of Firefly is that Mal is not a good person.   He's a bad person.   He is a broken person.   In the commentary the actor says he read the script and said he simply could not do it.  

So why do we not react with revulsion?

Why not?  Because we're thinking - why is Zoe there?   We're thinking, even if it's entirely at a subconscious level - there has to be a reason that Zoe is there... with him.

True, Zoe is bland.   She's bland because she isn't a misfit or screw-up.   She's bland because she could be anywhere working at a good paying job wearing power-suits and leading board meetings.

But she *has* to be that way to validate Mal.    If she had issues she'd be on the ship because she had issues.  

Instead, she's on that ship because she refuses to abandon Mal just because he got broken.  

Her loyalty signals to the audience how they should consider Mal.  It gives a vital clue about how *we* are supposed to perceive him.

All the other characters make interesting things happen.   The Zoe character makes everything  possible.   The focus of the camera can shift from one cast member to another for different episodes.   In *each* one, Mal is the force that drives it and Zoe is the anchor.  

34 "What's Zoe's defining trait?"

Her defining trait is Discipline. She is a soldier, first and foremost. Quiet, steady, reliable and competent. She's the XO, the professional yin to Mal's cowboy yang.

That's why she doesn't have quotable lines, she's not meant to be funny. But a fighting unit like her and the Cap'n supposedly came from can't function without people like her.


By the way, that's is some of the nerdiest shit I've written in a very long time. If the rest of the boys in the unit saw that shit I might get a beatin'.

35 What's Zoe's defining trait?

Her stoicism, of course.


And her luscious brown booty.

36 What fandom circles are those?  I want to mock her.

Don't bother.  She's utterly self-righteous and incapable of interpreting any criticism as being other than a psychic rape, which is akin to actual rape, considering the destruction of the female mentality that is inherent in the violent language used.  It is merely another attempt at telling a woman that she is to be silent, unheard and unseen, to force her to accept that speaking her mind is unfit for society, help help I'm being oppressed, blah blah blah blah blah.  Can you tell I've heard all of this before?

This is actually part and parcel of the gender wars kerfuffle of a bit ago.  It's the attempt to play the Poor Little Girl card while simultaneously claiming that the criticism is harsher due to the author being female.  I have no patience for this.  The "feminist" mindset that there can be no free will and no true choice due to the inherent patriarchy is such mindblowing idiocy that I don't even know where to start.  This is why I refuse to call myself a feminist, the word is so tainted by that batshittery that I will not be associated with it.

Ahem.  Not that I have an opinion about this topic.  Oh, look a button!  Let's go push it!

37 @Elydo

way back in the metacrawler days I did a search for superman, I don't even remember what I was actually looking for, and got linked to a story where some girl steals Superman's powers and proceeds to get revenge on all the people who did wrong to her, like her French teacher who failed her on a test because she didn't study, and her brother who was more successful in school because he did.  Turns out there is an entire porn genre out there that deals with this subject.  If something like the final episode of Buffy did happen and these stories are any guide we are all well and truly fucked.

38 And I'd deserve it too.

39 I'd say her defining trait is loyalty and second everything Synova said.

40 Something very telling here, the very first comments have her gleefully anticipating getting to lay into her contextual pinnacle of anti-woman subject matter, an odd anticipation for anyone truly horrified or upset by a faced reality, and just a few lines below that, she freely admits, with I'm guessing ironic humour, that she has apparently never encountered a healthy heterosexual relationship. Anyone here in a relationship with a member of the opposite gender you thought was going well, turns out you're deluding yourselves, such a thing can't happen. Who knew?

But of course, it's not her worldview that's tainted...

41

Henry-

Embrace your true geek-fu... works for the rest of us. We'll never tell... but Army? Marines?

tmi3rd

42 synova, that's a very interesting answer but it has the unfortunate meaning that Zoe's defining trait is defining Mal, a much more interesting character.

In other words, Zoe is a prop by which Mal further defines himself, same as his ship, his gun, or his browncoat.

As for her stoicism/loyalty/competency being her defining trait -- yes, fair enough.   This is another way of saying that Zoe is a very well-functioning tool or machine that does precisely what is expected of her and is as reliable as a Swiss watch.

43 I believe in the radical feminist definition of rape. That is that men who pressure women into sex are rapists. That women who are pressured are not freely consenting and are therefore being raped.

See, this is the part I never get. "Feminists" are supposed to be all about how powerful women are but at the same time they argue most are incapable of resisting 'pressure' and freely consenting to the actions they take.There are other classes of people who meet that definition...minors and the developmentally disabled.

Why do modern day  "radical feminists" insist on acting as if women are less than fully formed adults? Haven't they gotten the memo about it not being the Victorian Age anymore?

44 I guess that you missed that one episode where Zoe stopped cold Mr. Sadist's monologuing over which crewmen to rescue by interrupting him in mid-gloat.  "That one."  Grab the one needing rescuing worst, get away, go get some bigger guns, and come back - and no Mickey Mouse, either.

Yeah.  That's Zoe.

45

Drew, equally amusing is the looks on "radical feminists'" faces when you approach them with the argument that some make... that the height of feminism is hardcore porn- where the women are the stars and do whatever they like with whatever man they like.

Nah, what ties these mindsets together (our feminists, plus perhaps a few other groups) is the victim mentality- what makes us who we are is being victims.

tmi3rd

46 does anyone really buy those scenes of Zoe and Wash together where Zoe's acting all hot and horny?

I don't.  They just seem like an attempt to paint her something other than a Clone Trooper.  But she's so different there than she ever is on the ship...

Yeah, I know:  That's because she's so disciplined and is able turn off that aspect of herself when she's on the job.

Which is another way of saying that when she's working (which is 99% of the time we see her) she doesn't exhibit a personaity, because that would interfere with the efficient discharge of her duties.

47 Zoe not quotable?!?!

Why, here she is explaining why the reapers are bad...

"...kill us, rape us, and sew our skins into thier clothing. And if we're real lucky, they'll do it in that order."

48 Moe,

She chose her husband?  That's a big thing?

Look, I don't mind her on the show.  She is, as Han Solo said of of Luke, "Pretty good in a fight."

Compared to everyone else though -- even stuffy Simon -- she is a nonentity.

49 I never got the Whedon-love.  I haven't liked a single thing I've seen or read of his.  And I'm a pretty big nerd myself.

50 Firefly- with no Summer Glau pics. You people are morons.

51 Haven't they gotten the memo about it not being the Victorian Age anymore?

No.  No, they haven't.  There is an entire sub-section of radical feminism that truly believes that women are utterly incapable of free will as society is so permeated with patriarchy that women are never able to act a true choice.  It's the Andrea Dworkin view that all penetrative sex is rape and that women are incapable of giving true consent.  It's a deeply insulting, not to mention infantilizing, view of femininity.  I can make up my own mind and I can kick my own ass, thankyouverymuch.  I am not some poor delicate wee flower that cannot bear the harsh tones of the male voice. 

52 I wonder what she thinks of women who undergo sex-change surgery to try to be men.

Traitors?  Eh... probably just victims.

53 There was that one episode where the sadistic evil person was going to try to make trouble by trying to make a triangle of her, Wash and Mal.   Making her chose between them, as if it would be an impossible choice... walk out with one of them.  Leave the other to be tortured and die.

So *of course* she walked out with the civilian.  

She (and Mal) weren't looking at the situation the same way as the evil guy was at all because he didn't see those military relationships and loyalties or understand the rules.

54 Alex - Sad thing is, I'd define myself as a feminist of the old guard, were I of the age. I'm all for equal right for all, irrespective of any factor other than the ones which are relevant to the issue at hand. If you can do the job, you get the job and get paid the rate for it. It makes sense, which given my own mindset is a crucial factor. Only, the corollary is that if you aren't suited, you don't succeed. It's Equality of Opportunity, everyone get fair consideration and merit wins through. That's not what these people want, they want Equality of Outcome, if you can't get it on your own, you should be given it, otherwise you're being oppressed. I find it telling to myself that I pretty much harbour a hatred of women in the collective sense, for many reasons; encounters like this being significant, fear out of the discrimination towards men in society and the lack of defence the unfortunate have when singled out by women like this being also, and yet my best friend is female, I have no problems with women on an individual or group basis and find myself honestly happy when I see a women triumph against adversity. I cite the recent 19 year old medal recipient as an example. The disconnect between my individual/group reactions and my reaction to the gender collective is quite stunning, and it's fortunate that the collective has no physical entity independent from that which I don't have a problem with.

55 Interesting you mention this as a Zoe line was going through my head during some incident today - "You're losing that higher ground".

Here's another line - "Clear". ("Ariel")

As for Zoe's defining trait: loyalty. A little "boring", to some, but a trait I take seriously.

I agree that Zoe is a Marcie. But as a Marcie she ain't bad. Zoe's loyalty makes for powerful scenes when she disagrees with the Captain. For instance: "Shindig", when Mal insults Kaylee; and Zoe frowns, says something like "see you on the ship, Captain" and goes off with Kaylee. ("Shindig" was written by a woman, incidentally.)

I recall plenty of other Zoe lines - "Do you mean to turn our home into an abomination" ; "we're here to rob this planet, not occupy it"; "keep the power-hungry maniac at. bay."; "Wash ain't coming"; "We have no choice. Take me captain. Take me hard."

56 alexthechick,

Yeah, my favorite example of that was when Lawrence Summers at Harvard said there maybe some differences between men and women when it comes to some aptitude in the sciences.  One of the women in the audience (a professor a MIT) said she had to leave the room because his remarks made her physically ill.

The idea that a distinguished academic could come down with the vapors because of an idea floated by another distinguished scholar in an academic forum was just too damn funny.

57 Ace, I don't know that it's unfortunate.   What it is is mechanics and audience manipulation.

In order to pull off having the character of Mal be a bad person and have it *work*, someone had to have the role of Zoe.  It could have been any actor or actress at all.    And it's not that Mal defines Zoe nearly so much as Zoe defines Mal.

58 tmi3rd,

Heh. That would be fun but I'd never have the guts to make that argument in person. Life's too damn short for that.

59 No, Bart's right. Zoe is a Stoic. She's Lucius Verinus from the Rome miniseries, with a luscious brown firm round booty....

(... well, you can guess where I'll be headed now)

60 It's audience manipulation and useful but it still doesn't define Zoe.

Even if you want to put her into the active voice -- "Zoe defines Mal" -- fine, but it's still Mal being defined and not Zoe.

Incidentally, in case it's not clear, as a crewmember, she's a star.

As a character, she's bland.  She is over idealized in a fashion that no other character is.  Every other character has flaws.  (Except maybe the Shepherd, but he has, at least, a dark past.)  Zoe really has no flaws.  No vanity, no ego.  No *self.*

She's the right hand of the Captain, the same as the mute enforcer in a James Bond movie is the right hand of the Mastermind Villain.  But as Oddjob as the personified will of Goldfinger, so is Zoe the personified will of Mal.

61 I never get quotes word for word... there's the "we can give up our life of crime" one that was beyond excellent.

62 does anyone really buy those scenes of Zoe and Wash together...

No, it's a flaw, or contradiction, in the storyline. On one hand we're supposed to believe that Zoe really loves Wash. And on the other hand, the fact that Mal can have Zoe at anytime he wants is quite implicit.

She's there to be with Mal. Which makes her a disloyal jezebel. So, yeah, Joss Whedon really does hate woman.

63

Drew-

Oddly enough, one of my lefty professors in grad school (who, to his credit started off all his syllabi with the line "The definition of intellectual honesty is the solicitation of opposing viewpoints" and then lived it) dropped that one on my psychotic ex-girlfriend.

That was the single greatest takedown I'd ever seen, then and now.

tmi3rd

64 Elydo - That position actually is a reasonable one and is consistent with an individualist view of humanity.  Frankly, I completely understand why you would react like that.  It's a rational response to some of the excess currently in place.

That's not what these people want, they want Equality of Outcome,

You're granting the other position too much credit.  It's not Equality of Outcome, it's the supremacy of what is perceived as being the female traits, sympathy, empathy, a communal approach, non-violence, etc.  We joke about the beta male thing around here, but it's really not funny.  There does seem to be a strong movement to deem traditional male behavior as pathological.  Boys will be boys is now something that must be medicated and controlled.  If I were a guy?  I'd be fucking pissed.

Of course, as a chick, I've never understood those who think that if women were in charge there would be no more war.  Or as I always say, if you think that women are pacifists, you don't know the women that I know. 

65 The alternative is to take Zoe, make her interesting, flawed, all that good stuff, and then *replace* her and shunt her off to be a regular crew member with all the rest of them.   The new second in command will have a different name, different face, and no flaws except a inexplicable loyalty to a broken man.

66 That's the job of the XO ace. He is the Captain, she is his Enforcer. It doesn't lead to much character development for her, because there is little space for it. To develop her more would be very difficult without taking away from Mal, who is arguably the main focus of the show. She does get some, subtly and in keeping with her role within the series.

In terms of the race issue, I remember hearing controversy over the remake of The Posideon Adventure, where the Captain of the ship was black, but died during the film, as did damn near all of the crew and passengers. And yet it was somehow a problem that a black man had been cast in a position of power, and then killed off. I still don't really get it myself, and at the time I just remember going "What?!!" disbelievingly.

67 I really think you are overstating how "bad" Mal is.

Yeah, he's a "bad guy" (wink, wink).  But he's not.  He's about 10% more of a scoundrel than Han Solo is.

Jayne is actually pretty bad.  And even he's not really all that bad. 

Well, he is all that bad I guess, but he's funny.

Mal does a lot of heroic and selfless crap you're not giving him credit for.  He is the standard type (I don't mean this in a negative way) of the Reluctant Hero/Hero In Spite of Himself.  He never *wants* to do the right thing, indeed, he seems to make it a point of pride that he never does the right thing, and yet, most of the time, isn't it funny, he does wind up doing the right thing most of the time anyway?

68 <I>She chose her husband?  That's a big thing?</i>

What synova said.  Gotta respect the utter cutting through of the BS.

But, hey: I'm a patriarchal woman-oppressor.  Really.  I have a note from my wife, and everything.

69 alexthechick,  Men posture and beat their chests and fight for dominance.   Then they go out for a beer.   Women tend toward scorched earth finality.

Not only do those who think women are pacifists not know the women you know, they don't know any women... likely including themselves.

70 Oh, and re: gynaffectionate

wtf????

I don't watch too much South Park, but I did catch the episode about the bar, Les Bos and the scissoring, which I found funny. I don't know what gynaffection is, but I imagine it has something to do with scissoring. Well, that's what I imagine, anyway.



She's Lucius Verinus from the Rome miniseries...

Rome is in my Netflix Q. I think I might have to bump it up to the top, now.

71 "Don't bother.  She's utterly self-righteous and incapable of interpreting any criticism as being other than a psychic rape, which is akin to actual rape, considering the destruction of the female mentality that is inherent in the violent language used."

Heh.  This must have made it particularly amusing for any woman to flame her...

Yeah, I never much liked Whedon either.  Very 90s.

72 I remember a quote I cannot source:

"Men and women have one thing in common; they both hate women."

73 Yeah, my favorite example of that was when Lawrence Summers at Harvard said there maybe some differences between men and women when it comes to some aptitude in the sciences.

That may be the Platonic ideal of that variant of feminism.  Men and women are biologically different, that is a true fact.  But since that true fact is unacceptable, the response was to take to the fainting couch, quite literally.  I mean, come on, that's pathetic.  What, we're back to hysteria, in the Freudian sense?

I like that men and women are different, it makes life interesting.  Women aren't better than men, men aren't better than women.  We're different and vive la difference. 

74

I was considering leaving a post on that worthless waste-of-electrons blog, but then I realised that the utterly pathetic drooling moron writing it was just desperately seeking attention. Though the 'I find your views intriguing' line would never puncture this complete loser's grossly distorted sense of importance, it would allow the rest of the world a laugh at her expense.

Lithium, baby. It's what's for dinner.

75 >>>That's the job of the XO ace. He is the Captain, she is his Enforcer. It doesn't lead to much character development for her, because there is little space for it. To develop her more would be very difficult without taking away from Mal, who is arguably the main focus of the show. She does get some, subtly and in keeping with her role within the series.

Spock was Kirk's XO.  Denzel Washington was Gene Hackman's XO.  yes, the XO's job is to execute and all, but that doesn't require the XO not being an interesting character.

Sure Mal is the focus, obviously.  But most other characters are interesting.

Perhaps the explanation is that Mal, being the main character, gives other characters the chance to shine by *being in conflict with him.*  But Zoe is NEVER in conflict with Mal and so misses out on that key bit of characterization.

76 But, yeah, the ship is more interesting than Zoe.

A lot more interesting.

77 Two process thoughts...

I love the fact there's two distinct conversations going on in this thread (the 'feminist' shit and the Zoe stuff).

Do the really cool threads have to start at midnight? I am a night person and all but damn, a few hours earlier would have been nice.

78 Then again Kaylee isn't in conflict with Mal very much either and she's got a personality.

Maybe it's a double-whammy to both make Zoe an agent of Mal's *AND* have her also be happily married to Wash, thus taking pretty much ANY instability or craziness out of her life.  It just makes her too set.  She knows her duty on the ship, no questions asked, and sexually/romantically she also knows her duties, no questions asked.  (Well, some cutesy questions but you know what I mean.)

Too much of her life is therefore "taken care of" with a settled purpose and routine.

79 Ace: Zoe = "a very well-functioning tool or machine that does precisely what is expected of her and is as reliable as a Swiss watch"

That is, I believe, the aim of the Stoic philosophy: find your niche, do your job well, help your people, obey your boss and prevent setbacks from overruling your self-control. (Worf in TNG / DS9 is more Stoic than Klingon.)

Whedon could have devoted an episode or two on how Zoe bears up under that emotionally...

80 Christ, they only had one season. Not enough time to fully flesh out everyone.

Zoe is important to the show because the show becomes ridiculous without her, or someone like her. To believe that Mal was the commanding officer of a combat unit is outright ridiculous without Zoe. To believe that Mal could command a ship that functions at all without Zoe (especially with the rest of the crew being what they are) is ridiculous. The only people who could buy that nonsense are folks who have no experience at all with operating in dangerous environments.

81 Spock was Kirk's XO.  Denzel Washington was Gene Hackman's XO.  yes, the XO's job is to execute and all, but that doesn't require the XO not being an interesting character.

I think it's possible that you personally were just less interested in Zoe. I really liked her character, mostly because I love that type of best bud, duo vibe she has with Mal. I like best buddy movies and tv shows generally, and I liked Zoe in particular because of her droll manner and the things you say are more about Mal than they are about her: loyalty and competence.

But I may just be getting defensive. She was my favorite character.

82 Men posture and beat their chests and fight for dominance.   Then they go out for a beer.   Women tend toward scorched earth finality.

Heh.  I just was telling that to someone at work last week, a guy screws over his friend, they beat the hell out of each other and then go for beers.  Two women show up at a party in the same outfit and they hate each other forever.  Or as I always say, I won't start it.  But I sure as hell am going to finish it. 

83 tmi3rd - Marines, by the way (not that it matters I reckon).

84 "Perhaps the explanation is that Mal, being the main character, gives other characters the chance to shine by *being in conflict with him.*  But Zoe is NEVER in conflict with Mal and so misses out on that key bit of characterization."

Hmm, quite possible. The only references we get to conflict between them is through recollections from other characters, so the opportunity for the development that would result is never seen.

An obvious conclusion of the series is that being on the losing side of the war broke Mal, and in particular the Battle of Serenity Valley. Zoe was with him for most of those events, including the most crucial one, and perhaps saved herself from the same fate by tying herself to him. Thus what would be traits called for in an XO became amplified as her own way of preserving herself against the fate Mal suffered, with the fact that Mal became necessary as a focus in order to maintain the bastion of strength. The problem is, all of that is entirely supposition only tenuously supported by the series material.

85 On the Zoe thing...it would be interesting to see if Whedon agrees with the idea that Zoe doesn't have an independent personality. And if he does, I wonder if he meant to give her one but just got caught building 8 other strong personalities and she just got screwed.

In watching the Serenity extras he has some deleted scenes and they all almost involve Inara. He said he basically screwed up in writing her part for the movie. All the moments he gave her were about the character and didn't really move the story forward so they were the first things to go in editing. 

Maybe he meant Zoe to be that way or perhaps, it was just a glitch. Perhaps she would have grown if the series had lasted.

86 As for Mal being bad... sometimes we see what Zoe knows because he (for example) takes River back onto the ship, or lets her stay, or..., but a great deal of how we see him is influenced by her.   And the music.  And the set.   And the general tone of the dialog.    We watch long enough to see who he is.   Part of why we watch that long is because she is there sticking it out with him.

Lois Bujold did the same sort of thing between Miles Vorkosigan and his cousin Ivan in her novels.   Miles is a hyper-competent person, but if a writer just says, "Look at my hyper-competent character!" it doesn't work so hot.   So here comes Ivan to show us how to react to Miles.   Ivan obeys Miles.  Ivan defers to Miles.  Ivan expects Miles to pull miracles out of his butt.   Ivan is handsome, normally competent, almost a manikin in a uniform.   Boy next door.

Gradually, over many books and many appearances, a person gets to know Ivan a bit more and he's one of Bujold's favorite characters.   Everyone loves Ivan.   But objectively?  Objectively he's still boring.  Fans who want "Ivan" stories and want him to be the hero miss that he's in all those books precisely because he's the closest thing to a "regular joe" that exists in his social class.  

With a couple of more seasons Zoe, just as she is, would likely seem far richer as a character.   We didn't get the time.

87 I love the fact there's two distinct conversations going on in this thread (the 'feminist' shit and the Zoe stuff).  Do the really cool threads have to start at midnight? I am a night person and all but damn, a few hours earlier would have been nice.

I was thinking the same thing.  I would comment on the Zoe stuff but I never got into Firefly.  And hell, I wanted to get a few more chapters read of New Moon tonight.  Hey, even I like to indulge my inner 14 year old.  It's due to the patriarchy telling me that I should want a knight (or vampire as the case may be) in shining armor.  Of course, I'm all about Alice so I'm not sure what that proves.  Other than that I'm better than that bint who started this whole discussion. 

88

Henry-

Just curious. I come from a long line of squids, and I'm probably going to do my medical residency with the Navy... that's a few years away. And why not- I've already helped sew up my share of Marine buddies after good nights at the bar...

In any event, Semper Fi- and your geekery is obviously safe with us.

tmi3rd

89 Ah, someone else who uses bint that way! Excellent, I once had to defend my usage of that. To think I use it to avoid swearing more vociferously...

90 they only had one season. Not enough time to fully flesh out everyone.

I think it was for the best, actually.

Given more time, Whedon would've given Zoe special girl/supernatural powers (much like a lesbian witch) and the crew would have started fighting demons and space vampires. They were headed in that direction, what with the Reavers, not to mention River's inexplicable abilities.

Whedon is a turd with silly ideas once he's set loose and given his freedom on his shows.

91 The problem with Zoe as I see it is that she's the most ludicrous girl power character in Whedon's canon.  She's the least convincing character in a show that, aside from the majority of its cast, is often extremely unconvincing.

92 In one of his books, Elmore Leonard described a character as "having that stupid look people get when they walk around pissed off all the time". I always think of that line when I come across people like the subject of Ace's post.

93 Ah, someone else who uses bint that way!

If anyone ever gives you trouble about it in the future, just point them to the definitive authority...Stuff alexthechick Said, 3rd Edition, Revised.

94 Bart, LOL!

Yes, maybe it was for the best.

95 Of course Malor sticks up for the boring one.

96 She was my favorite character.


Whaaaaaaaaaaaa?

That's like having Shemp as your favorite Stooge. Zoe is almost an "extra," or merely there to provide background, or back-up, whatever the need may be.

Who was your favorite character on Star Trek, Yeoman Rand?

97 >>>I really liked her character, mostly because I love that type of best bud, duo vibe she has with Mal. I like best buddy movies and tv shows generally, and I liked Zoe in particular because of her droll manner and the things you say are more about Mal than they are about her: loyalty and competence.

Well I didn't imagine she was anyone's favorite character.  I guess I was wrong.

I don't dislike her.  She does have a sort of "buddy movie" thing with Mal.  The problem is once again she's third best:  Inara and Jayne both have stronger "buddy movie" love/hate relationships with Mal and their interactions are far more entertaining. 

Mal and Zoe just plum get along with no friction -- which is bad for Zoe, as everyone on the show is defined mostly by their relationship with Mal.  A smooth, friendly relationship is great in real life but it's boring as hell to watch on screen.


>>>Zoe is important to the show because the show becomes ridiculous without her, or someone like her. To believe that Mal was the commanding officer of a combat unit is outright ridiculous without Zoe. To believe that Mal could command a ship that functions at all without Zoe (especially with the rest of the crew being what they are) is ridiculous. The only people who could buy that nonsense are folks who have no experience at all with operating in dangerous environments.

I concede Zoe has mechanical (that is dramatic/manipulative) purpose and an in-world "real" purpose (i.e., she's a good XO and Whedon needed SOMEONE competent militarily on the show besides Mal, it being a paramilitary sort of ship and everything -- Wash is a doofus who only knows how to fly and Jayne is good with a gun but, uh, hardly officer material).

So the show needs a competent officer like Zoe.  But does it need a bland competent officer?

Just to throw out an idea, what if Zoe was the kind of person who really got off on crime and was a bit sadistic/gloating, a bit of a Doc Holliday type who winks and struts?  She could still be omincapable and everything but she would have a character edge she doesn't have now.

I guess that may sound like Jayne but I don't think I'm describing it right. 

Anyway, my point (whether that one made any sense) is what precludes Whedon from giving Zoe not just a usefulness to the series (mechanical) or to the ship (competency) but to herself as an interesting character in her own right?

98 "If anyone ever gives you trouble about it in the future, just point them to the definitive authority...Stuff alexthechick Said, 3rd Edition, Revised."

Is that the edition with the five word preface; "Leave me the hell alone!", her included current-at-print People I Want To Kill list, and her mothers recipe for cinnamon brownies?

99 The thing with allecto is superiority. Of course, as a "rad fem" she's superior to men. That's just a given. The thing that really irks me is she just assumes as well that she's superior  to damn near all women as well. Whedon's wife must be some poor foolish beaten, raped and abused naif to be with him. She would never make such a poor choice as to be with that man or any man. allecto then wraps this smugness in a warm fluffy blanket of helping these lesser, weaker women understand how they are tools of the patriarchy, because she is smarter, and stronger than them. If they come on board, then they are in the circle of gynaffectionate love. If, Gaia forbid, they argue that they made an honest to goodness, real live informed decision to marry, have sex with men, have children, whatever, then they have just proven that they are oppressed because they can't even see the horrible patriarchal opressive structure. It is all very Gnostic.

100 If anyone ever gives you trouble about it in the future, just point them to the definitive authority...Stuff alexthechick Said, 3rd Edition, Revised.

Drew, you are officially my favorite.  I have always had a secret desire, burning in my breast, to obtain that highest of all moron honors, namely having a stuff [whoever] said named after me.  I'm touched.  *wipes a tear* 

101
>>>Who was your favorite character on Star Trek, Yeoman Rand?


What's so bad about that?

102

Actually, I long felt that Zoe on 'Firefly' was the best role Gina Torres has ever had. Actors as a class of people tend to be attention seekers. Wild, overt characters come easy. Restraint and subtlety are far harder. It's like standup during the 80s. Far more low-talent guys were able to get some mileage out of imitating Robin Williams than Steven Wright. Wright's appeal is far harder to emulate.

It also helped that the space cowboy look really worked out perfectly for Ms. Torres. In general, the character is a major part of what made the show work. The ship couldn't believably function without Zoe as the backbone.

103 I donno.  Maybe he would have made her more interesting, given time, if a few of us had managed to watch the series on television instead of buying the box set a few years too late.

But all the promotional adds said "psychic" and "from the creator of Buffy" and it had a lame name like "firefly" that made it sound like a gothic angst-fest.

The pain... it doesn't go away.

104 Drew, you are officially my favorite.

My work is done here. It's been fun and a good ride here at the HQ but what's the point in going on? Yeah, I enjoyed being responsible for a couple of Instalanches and coming across something I posted here on other blogs I read but let's be honest, everything after this will only be a let down.

105

98 "If anyone ever gives you trouble about it in the future, just point them to the definitive authority...Stuff alexthechick Said, 3rd Edition, Revised."

Is that the edition with the five word preface; "Leave me the hell alone!", her included current-at-print People I Want To Kill list, and her mothers recipe for cinnamon brownies?

It's the one with the preface, "Get the hell of my lawn, you damn punks!"

106 The names... "Firefly."   And then-- for a big action space adventure -- "Serenity."

Why didn't he just call them "Don't Watch This If You're A Dude" and be done with it?

Because you know, I didn't.  "Firefly."  Might as well have called it "Tinkerbell" or "Sugarplum Fairy."  I only happened to catch the shows at all because my xgf was watching them and I happened to look up and notice that "Shindig" was kinda cool... then I started watching, but who the hell knew when it was on?  It was always changing timeslots.

What atrocious names.  A title should sell the idea of what the show is, and "Firefly" and "Serenity" did not exactly sell the idea of "What if Han Solo had his own show and did crimes in between trying to make it with a hot-ass space hooker?"

107 Whaaaaaaaaaaaa?

Who else is there? I was ready for Jayne to die the very first episode. The captain's fine, I guess, but cocky bluster never really did it for me. I like him, sometimes, but I especially dislike his anguished "I am a bad man" schtick. For me, his best moments are when he's with Zoe.

Wash is goofy. Kayle's annoyingly perky. Book is never fleshed out in the series; we only get a greater hint of his background in the movie. Inara is okay, I guess. Oh, Simon and River.

I guess, if I had to say "why I watched this show" I'd have to say it wasn't for any individual characters. The show worked, to the extent it did, because it was an ensemble cast. And the best pairings for me were Zoe-Mal, Zoe-Wash, and Mal-Simon interactions.

108 Not to mention, that show would have eventually become "River Tam, Reaver Slayer" if it went on. Whedon has a retarded sexual fetish for 100 lb. girls kicking the shit out of everyone, often using enormous weapons, and it's a little ridiculous.

I'm not saying that tiny chicks can't be tough, but they're losing a hand to hand fight with a full grown man every time. Every time.

109 http://xkcd.com/311/

110 "Firefly."  Might as well have called it "Tinkerbell" or "Sugarplum Fairy."

Yeah, it's hard to feel too personally responsible for Failing to Watch given the circumstances.

111 On the comments way upthread about the problems skipped over when a whole lot of girls worldwide suddenly got the Slayer superpowers, you haven't read the Season 8 comic series.  They go into quite a bit of detail about that, with criminal Slayers and gangs, as well as just plain old evil Slayers.

112 "I'm not saying that tiny chicks can't be tough, but they're losing a hand to hand fight with a full grown man every time. Every time."

Equality.   It's what guns are for. 

113 btw, I am not picking on the actress Gina Torres.

I think Whedon had a bit of hubris and thought, "Let's see if i can take a stable, bourgeois, settled person, quiet, stoic, and efficient in her work, happily married and therefore without the implicit interest of sexual adventure, and without any real character flaws, and who gets along smoothly with pretty much everyone, and nevertheless bring her to life as an interesting character."

Either that or he had a bunch of obligatory and necessary, but bland, roles he wanted to fill and decided to dump them all in the character of Zoe instead of putting a bit of each bland role into several characters.

Or else he didn't think things through enough, or thought Zoe would eventually "emerge" from the paper and "speak in her own voice" or etc. and she never quited did.

114 The woman (feminist nutbag) is a feminst nutbag. Nuff said.

THAT being said, there ARE some icky things Whedon writes about, specifically rape, in both Buffy and Firefly. Marti Noxon (a woman) used Buffy S6 as her personal therapy. I kid you not, the show has Spike raping Buffy near the end of Season Six. Afterwards, in the next Season, he returns and Buffy tends to him, tells him repeatedly he's a good man, and has implied off-screen sex with the character.

According to Tim Minear's blog, Whedon tried to convince Minear to have an episode where Mal mocks Inara for being a whore, she's captured by the Reavers but injects some substance into herself, the Reavers are implied but never shown to have raped her and died from whatever poison that Inara is immune to injected herself with. At the end, an Angry-Protective Zoe tries to keep Mal away from Inara (rescued from the now all-dead Reavers) but he barges in anyway and salutes her as a soldier.

A big (mostly big) part of Whedon's trick bag is shock. That generates ever-diminishing returns, so you have one character death after another, more ugly turn of events, and yeah, rape.

Link here.
-----
Unpopular view: I think Joss + David Greenwalt (showrunner for Angel's first few seasons) was pretty good, not the least of which was showing the dirty little secret of female empowerment: women end up trading up in guys and chasing after the few Alpha Males (sorry Allahpundit). That the empowered girls always make dumb and predictably bad outcome decisions about these Alpha Male guys, who are incredibly disruptive.

Whedon on his own, or with his lunatic acolytes he plucked out of obscurity (Marti Noxon, Jane Espenson), without anyone to tell him "no maybe that idea is just stupid, let's not do it" tends to be the worst of Hollywood, manipulative and obvious crap, predictability, cliche, and particularly the cliched, angst ridden anti-Hero who was old in 1989.

He is generally smart in casting. Adam Baldwin, Sarah Michelle Gellar, Tony Head, made the writing better than it was. Summer Glau though can't act and isn't IMHO that attractive.

Ace: the key to Doc Holliday was that he was dying, weak, and any saloon girl could (and sometimes did) push him around physically. This meant he would out of pride (and because he was dying anway) any conflict he'd have with a man would be escalated into a gunfight. Holliday was both legitimately fast and didn't care much if he got killed (since he was dying anway). He was also intensely loyal to his pal Earp and the various saloon girls / prostitutes who would end up caring for him during bad spells of tuberculosis.

115 Is it just me or is Ace a little fixated on Zoe?

116 Just want my T&A used to maximum effect.

117 I'm more fixated on Saffron.

I've written over 100 fan-fic scripts where Saffron joins the Serenity, rises to the rank of Science Officer, and fucks the shit out of every single last character on the boat.

That's episode one.  But the next 99 pretty much follow the same narrative arc.

Oh and the ship gets a dog in episode 38.  It's called Moxie.  Everyone's so excited they gang-bang the stuffings out of Saffron.

118 Ace -- you're right the title was terrible "Stuf Dudes should never watch."

I don't think Whedon can really write for a male audience anyway. Ironically he's too feminist. [His rape shtick is purely shock-em Hollywood idiocy.] I mean, Inara is a prostitute. Who CARES if Mal ends up with her? She's a prostitute.

River? A cipher with no personality who fights a lot. Who cares if she ends up with ... well with anyone. Kaylee another Willow perky clone. The male characters not much interesting either as a fun/cool character the way Han Solo was. Writing wise. Baldwin gave it his all, but he's Adam Baldwin. Total pro since the late seventies. Hilarious on Chuck btw.

Whedon's next project (sure to be cancelled) is with Eliza Dushku and it's about a bunch of people (controlled by evil government and corporation gee where have I seen that one before) who have their memories wiped and act out fantasies sexual or otherwise with high-roller customers. Now as much as I enjoy seeing Eliza in her underwear, seeing her play another variation of "Kristen" with Client No. 9 is not particularly thrilling. Well after the first episode. Well after I burn through the tape. Well ... I'll be in my bunk.

119

Oh and the ship gets a dog in episode 38.  It's called Moxie.  Everyone's so excited they gang-bang the stuffings out of Saffron.

For a second there I thought he said the gang-banged the stuffing out of Moxie. Maybe that's episode 39?

120 no episode 39 is that sort of obligatory "Musical Episode," except instead of being all singing, it's all anal.

In addition, an alliance Assassin Android targets the Tams. 

In the climax it has sex with Saffron.

121

Summer Glau though can't act and isn't IMHO that attractive.

 

See, it's anti American shit you spout that's bringing down Obama's campaign. O needs to dump you quick.

122 in case anyone doesn't know about this, nerdish and bored housewives write up these sex-stories featuring characters from TV shows, especially sci-fi shows. 

For some reason they're particularly interested in gay shit.  Like Kirk screwing Spock.  Which is a Kirk/Spock "story."  Hence "slash" fiction, always the slash between the pair.

Anyway, I'm joking with my fan-fic scripts about this strange internet phenomenon. 

In case you care though, of course they are churning out the Simon-River sex stories, and of course the Mal-Jayne stories too:

http://www.squidge.org/~peja/firefly/slash.htm

123 and no, I didn't know about that link before, I just looked it up now.

Jokers.

124 How many did you read? Write? Bunk?

125 none, promise.

I read some of them (not with firefly) a couple of years ago and posted some excerpts on the blog. It's just this really amateur crap where everyone's giving each other longing looks and having vague chit-chat over coffee (girl talk, in dude's mouths though, where conversations go in endless circles and many Deep Emotions are discussed) and then all of a sudden Harry Potter is sticking his Petronas Charm into Ron Weasley.

It's, uh.... an acquired taste.  As found comedy it's pretty good.

126

I actually remember that post. How fucking sad is that.

 

Go to bed. I've got a busy day tomorrow, and want fresh moronity when I get home. I shot my wad in the Target thread.

127 Like, I'm pretty sure you can find one for anything.

I'm going to guess here: If I google "Maxwell Smart slash Chief," I'll bet you I get one.

Okay:  Experiment failed.  Google did not turn up a story of Maxwell Smart boning the Chief.

Still.  Name any two characters, throw in a "slash," hit search... your odds are pretty good.

128 Oh, Ace, now you're talking about slash. It's absolutely brilliant comedy in the AOS lifestyle. 

I will occasionally go to science fiction/writing conventions that have a "slash panel". It's usually an audience participation thing, where you read until you laugh and then pass the story to the poor sod next to you. At the last panel I attended, it started out with Hastur/Nyarlathotep and went downhill from there, including Tucker Carlson/Jon Stewart and Goofus/Gallant.


As for the rest of this argument, Joss Whedon has some great ideas, but be needs great writers to pull them off. Willow was my favorite character until she became a lesbian. Then it was Spike until he became a pussy. I love Kayley and Jayne. One of Zoe's best scene's was when something tragic happened to Wash and that was so close to the end that I almost wished they had done something traumatic like that earlier, just to give her more depth.

129

One of Zoe's best scene's was when something tragic happened to Wash and that was so close to the end that I almost wished they had done something traumatic like that earlier, just to give her more depth.

I'm sure that was the plan all along, probably after Wash knocked her up.

130 Of course, as a chick, I've never understood those who think that if women were in charge there would be no more war.

I think if women were in charge we'd all have eating disorders.

131 I've heard people cite a lot of lines from Firefly, but I can't think off the top of my head of anyone ever quoting Zoe.

Actually, she has one of my favorite Firefly quotes:

Wash: That sounds like something out of science fiction.
Zoe: You live on a spaceship, dear.

132 I knew there were reasons I didn't like Joss Whedon's crap.  But I think 'fanboys taking it too seriously' has just moved several spots higher....

133 I always thought of Zoe as being normal and professional on the outside but highly conflicted on the inside. Her outward appearance suggests a highly trained and competent soldier. Internally, I think she has a lot of mental issues that she is dealing with. She keeps her self wound tight  with the facade of being all serious, all together, all the time. When her husband gets killed she doesn't show any real sadness and just becomes an emotionless soldier. This inherent conflict within her is what makes her a misfit and what makes her function so well on Mal's ship. She is not being servile in her calling Mal sir. She is keeping herself in the easily understood and easily performed role of a second in command on a military ship. It is easier emotionally for her to be playing that role rather than being open to  unpredictable and potentially dangerous emotional situations.

134 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/26/nsexes126.xml

Somehow related. Really.

135 After just reading the excerpts of that disaster, all I can think to ask the author is:

"Were There Monkeys? Some Terrifying Space Monkeys Maybe Got Loose?"

I liked Zoe's attitude, someone needed to be the straight person on that crew

Mal: This is why we lost, you know: superior numbers.
Zoe: Thanks for the reenactment, sir.

Mal: Ship like this, be with ya 'til the day you die.
Zoe: Yes Sir. Because it's a deathtrap.
Mal: That's not... you are very much lacking in imagination.
Zoe: I imagine that's so, sir.

Zoe: Take me, Sir. Take me hard.

136 I'm still disappointed that they made Kaylee scrawny in the movie.

137

Reluctant hero is a fair description for Mal.  Loved that line of his when he decided to stay and help the madam against the bad sheriff (after having said "we're gonna run"):

 

 "You're my kind of stupid".

138 I cannot believe it was 70 posts into this thread before a mention of gynoaffectionate. Slackers.

When I read that my first thought was they have ointment for that shit. It will clear it right up.

Maybe I am just a boring person but I have never given Firefly much of any thought. I enjoyed watching the series. It was very entertaining that whole western space cowboy thing. Made me wish there was westerns on TV again. And that pretty much sums up my analysis. Don't even know if I could pick out a favorite character.

These womyn need something more to do ... kids, jobs, something. Surely they would find cleaning a house or doing the laundry more fulfilling than this writing this drivel.

139

P.M.S.

140 "I believe in the radical feminist definition of rape. That is that men who pressure women into sex are rapists. That women who are pressured are not freely consenting and are therefore being raped. There have been a few discussions recently in the rad fem blogosphere debating whether all male initiated sex is rape, given that women are politically, socially and economically subordinate to men. So, in my understanding of Joss Whedon as a rapist is hinges on my definition of rape. I would argue that most 'sex' between men and women, in the contemporary 'sex-positive', pornographic, male-supremacist culture, is rape."

I got $10 that says she's into that, when she's not ranting and raving at the male hypo-phallic oppresor or whatever she's commenting on BDSM meet-up boards begging someone to gag her.

141 The woman is a moron!  Firefly was the best friggin' television show ever made!  I'm still waiting for them to bring it back. 
Listen, I'm a rape survivor, and I was never in any way offended by the portrayals of women in Firefly.  Zoey is one of my favorite characters, and I can identify with her somewhat as I know self defense and can sword fight...somewhat. 
Another thing...do women, like these, ever think of sex in a normal way?  God.

142 Another thing...do women, like these, ever think of sex in a normal way?

I suppose that would depend on whether or not you classify lesbian sex as "normal".

143 I got $10 that says she's into that, when she's not ranting and raving at the male hypo-phallic oppresor or whatever she's commenting on BDSM meet-up boards begging someone to gag her.

No bet.  I think you're on to something there.  I wouldn't even be surprised if she writes up this drivel precisely in order to drive up the supply of people who would enjoy gagging her (not to mention fulfilling the rest of her violent rape fantasies).

As for the Firefly conversation:  I'm with the crowd that says Zoe did indeed have a personality.  Someone did indeed have to be the straight man on that crew, but she did sneak in some wonderful snark once in a while, and what more can we morons ask?  And she showed some real depth in the episode where Mal and Wash get kidnapped, IMO, and the flashback to where they first buy Serenity and first meet Wash.  I'm in agreement that it was mostly the show's short run to blame for not getting that much character development for Zoe in.

Qwinn

144 She probably typed up that post wearing a cape and goggles.

145

I disagree that Zoe and the Captain never disagreed.  It's just that, like a good XO, she doesn't disagree in front of the crew.  Unless it's trivial stuff like Mal dissing Kaylee.  In the movie she argues with the captain over taking the civ with them, rather than leaving him to the Reavers.  I'm pretty sure there are other spots as well.  I think she's just not an over-the-top character like the rest of the crew, and appeals to a different type of folk.

I agree, by the way, that the series would have gone down hill fast if it had a second season.  "Hey!  An evil corporation/shadow government is dicking with the crew, the Reavers are the vampires of the future, and River's the second coming of Buffy!  I totally did not see that coming..."

146 Ya know, actually, I take it back about her having violent rape fantasies.  I'm not so sure.  I'm going to offer up another homespun 5cent psychoanalysis of what creates someone to have that outlook.

The writer of that article, back when she was younger, wanted something, and in order to get it, she basically whored herself out.  She used sex in order to get something from a guy, at least once.  It was entirely consensual.  And the sex was probably pretty bad, and all she remembers is sweat and grunting and all that, because the guy was in fact using her as much as she was using him.  But the shame of doing that isn't something she can bear, and she's probably even more ashamed by the fact that whatever she sold herself for didn't really have much value - i.e., she sold herself cheap. So, to rationalize this - she didn't consent to anything.  He raped her.  As all men everywhere are always raping her.  And she will never, ever be broken out of this worldview because to do so would be for her to admit to herself that she at least once did, in fact, whore herself out completely voluntarily, and she's entirely responsible for it.  That's simply too much shame for her to handle, and woe anyone who even attempts to hold a value system that would make her have to face it.

The funny thing about that is that the shame that drives her is pretty much strictly based in Victorian values.  Which also explains why she resents and despises that value system so much.

Qwinn

147 Cool Fact: Reavers are humans who have seen Hillary naked.

148 Have you ever been with a warrior woman?

Zoe kicked ass.  I like women who kick ass - see Garner, Jennifer (Alias - Seasons 1 and 2 only).

But what do I know, I'm apparently a rapist.

149

On firefly, I must say I disagree most completely with Synova's take. Mal is not an essential bad character. I think it's undenabile he's a mostly good man, even if he is someone blackened and broken by events. But he has realistic ideas about what he can and can't change and he's a pragmatist.

Mal volunteered for the war, led a unit into spectacular defeat, and when the war was over, instead of giving up and bowing down to the alliance he went rogue and essentially became a space pirate. He reminds me a bit of Harlocke.Everything about the show is libertine to the max. Even the opening theme, "you can't take the sky from me". Mal tell's Inara in the flick he's a man without a rudder, wind blows north and he goes north. Ultimately all Mal wants to do is be free, to wander about the galaxy and live and let live. To not meddle and not be meddled with. He's got an ideal, and he's going to persue it any way, at any cost.

But he rarely reacts in any way I'd call evil. Sometimes out of neccessity he may be callous, but I feel no revulsion from his actions because I've never seen him do a damn thing that was sadistic. And while of course, he's often selfish and self-interested, (everyone is), he's also occaisonally quite charitable, and despite being a rogue, occaisonally quite honorable. He's just following his own code. If he's gonna fight you, he's not about to fight you fair, and you could call that dishonorable, but you look at the way he protects his crew, the episode where he smuggled the medicine, or the episode where his old army buddy was smuggling human organs inside himself, the fact he's taking River and Simon with him, he definetly has a code of conduct.

As for him being a goofball and not being capable of leading without Zoe? Huh? Zoe isn't the only one who flips a switch and goes into 'professional' mode. Mal has different personalities too, and when he gets serious he's quite dire and humorless. Like in the movie where Simon tells him 'it's final', or when his old army buddy starts shooting up his crew, etc. etc. It's just rare. The rest of the time, he's cavallier. And that does not dis-suite a leader. Etymologically, the word cavallier comes from knights and cavalry men. If he took himself too seriously all the time, he would burn out and break.

Now Jayne, Jayne is a fundementally bad person. We occaisonally are revulsed by his actions, and probably would feel quite revulsed by his actions alot more if Mal didn't essentially have a collar on him. The guy is a dog. A mean, savage pit bull.

150 146

Or, she's just a big, fat ugly bulldyke.  Either way.

151 Qwinn, she's also forgetting the fact that men are raped too.  While doing research to talk to a Victims of Crime class, about my own experience,  I discovered that "1 in 33 American men have experienced an attempted or completed rape."
It also has been my experience that women who throw around the "rape" word lightly, have no idea what it's like.  It has nothing to do with sex, but power and control.  Just like when someone points a gun to someone's head, the gun is the weapon they choose to feel bigger, more in control, empowered.  Sex is a rapists weapon of choice.

152

After perusing her poetry and ramblings, such as "Raped Down to Almost White", I can say with certainty that I would really love to watch her eat a hot dog. 

153

You know what I'd love to see in a story?

A feminine female heroine. A woman who 'kicks ass' and accomplishes shit, but does it without actually kicking ass and being able to benchpress 500 lbs (depite only weighing 110) and knows kung fu.

I think it'd be cool to see a female hero who couldn't kick ass, who screamed shrilly and got manhandled if she was put in a position of having a physical confrontation with a man, but cleverly and subtley maneuvered and schemed and positioned so as to not find herself in such situations often. And made good use of guile, diplomacy, shrewdness, passive aggression, manipulation, and siren sex appeal rather then kung fu and assertiveness to get what she wanted. A keen machievellian intellect combined with a natural prodigy at using social skills as weapons.

It wouldn't float as a main character, but might work well for a supporting cast member. Inara and Sapphron (as a villain) almost come close. Occaisionally you see that in villainesses...but never in heroines. Sapphron would have been it, if she hadn't gone all gunslinging kung-fu badass towards the end of her scheme.

The romantic love interest/princess is allways either (A) up in the tower knitting, or (B) wearing a chainmail halter top slashing swords right along with the prince or firing arrows over his shoulder.

154 I miss being a waitress. All we did was sexually harass each other.

155

After perusing her poetry and ramblings, such as "Raped Down to Almost White", I can say with certainty that I would really love to watch her eat a hot dog. 

She sodomizes herself with it first, the blaims the hot dog and cries profusely while stabbing it with a fork. Then cuts it up into small slices and throws it in the chilli.

156 The wiener of rage...hold the ketchup.

157 Now Jayne, Jayne is a fundementally bad person...The guy is a dog. A mean, savage pit bull.

With a really big gun named Vera.

158

Entropy,

I don't think Mal is evil, I think he's broken.  And as far as leadership goes, he's a wartime hero and a peacetime screwup.  Zoe's the one that keeps the ship running day to day; Mal's the one that gets it through the Reaver attack.  The ship would totally go to hell if it was only Mal keeping it together. In my opinion.

159 A keen machievellian intellect combined with a natural prodigy at using social skills as weapons.

Entropy,

So, you are a big Scarlett O'Hara fan.

160 And made good use of guile, diplomacy, shrewdness, passive aggression, manipulation, and siren sex appeal rather then kung fu and assertiveness to get what she wanted. A keen machievellian intellect combined with a natural prodigy at using social skills as weapons.

Livia in I, Claudius.

161 An -actual- heroine that fits the bill you're asking for (other than using sex appeal) would be Delenn from B5.

Qwinn

162

One hundred fifty-eight (and counting!) ... this could be a new record for a post that doesn't feature shamnesty.

 

I don't keep up, but in the minor periodicals section of my university's library, there was a ... publication ... called "Off Our Backs", edited by a "radical feminist collective" in Washington, DC which was chock-full of just such tripe.  The first issue I read was April of 19 *cough* *cough* and I originally thought it was a April Fool's, parody number.  OH, no.  It just went on for month after month after month.  Yeesh. 

 

The supreme double-think for me is that many of these self-same "rad fems" considered "The Hand Maid's Tale" to be prophetic, yet turned around and then supported gun control.  To paraphrase an Oleg Volk poster, "Nothing emphasizes 'no' like a handgun."  If you honestly believe you are going to be forcibly opressed, I'd prefer to go down fighting.  But I guess there are those who would rather carp and get the vapors.

163 Zoe a cypher? Not hardly.

Mal = Ego

Jayne = Id

Zoe = Super Ego  I.E. The voice of reason.

Doesn't anyone remember Psych 101?

164

To believe that Mal was the commanding officer of a combat unit is outright ridiculous without Zoe. To believe that Mal could command a ship that functions at all without Zoe (especially with the rest of the crew being what they are) is ridiculous. The only people who could buy that nonsense are folks who have no experience at all with operating in dangerous environments.

See that strieks me as crap. Because the Mal we see when he's not in danger, or the Mal we see when he's in danger but can't do anything about it (the ship is crashing and he's not the pilot) is very different from the Mal who's in danger and sees a way out.

Yes he's mostly goofing around and quipping and being laid back. But when he gets that look on his face and tells you to "shut up", you notice no one ever disobeys him? Even a lot of his enemies stand down.

Like he tells Inara : 'If I go to war, you'll see a me you never saw before.'

165

So, you are a big Scarlett O'Hara fan.

Honestly?

Beleieve it or not...I've never seen Gone With The Wind.

166

Oh c'mon, of course the captain was metaphysically raping Zoe, why else did she keep calling him sir when he's a sergeant? "You don't call me sir boy! I work for a living!!"

I noticed in the movie they tried to retroactively make him an LT, but that's just Whedon trying to get a do-over.

167 As a Klingon, I have an interesting take on this. The writer is an honorless petaQ, who will spend her after-life in ghe''or(the place of dishonor) complaining about the masculine hegemony that put her there, when she really had nowhere else to go.

Also the true star of Firefly was Jayne, though I would take Zoe in a firefight any day. Firefly was a show where the best characters were the women. The men were all failures. Even River in her brokenness was more centered than any of the men, other than Jayne who knew his limitations, and did what he was s'posed to with a Klingon fury.But on the other hand, I'd let Zoe hold my wallet while I fought a bar fight, Jayne not a chance.

168 Alex:  are you married?

Oh, wait.  I forgot I'm already married anyway.  Never mind.

169 "I noticed in the movie they tried to retroactively make him an LT, but that's just Whedon trying to get a do-over."

*blink*

I did -not- notice that.  You bastard.  Now I have to watch it -again-.

Qwinn

170

Oh, and this man-hating goo bin is pretty sure that Joss rapes his wife, based on interviews and her hatred of all things male.

Have a happy life, girlie.

171 So when exactly does evolution kick in and start thinning some of these intellectual dead-enders out of the herd?

172 Also the true star of Firefly was Jayne, though I would take Zoe in a firefight any day. Firefly was a show where the best characters were the women. The men were all failures.

Oh, let's not get silly going the other way.  Simon was about as successful as humanly possible, only becoming a "failure" for the noblest of reasons, i.e., love for his sister.  And Shepherd Book was pretty "centered" too, despite what we do or don't know about his shady past.

And I disagree with those saying that Mal couldn't run a ship without Zoe.  Sure, you can find scenes of Mal standing around helpless, but that's only when he really -was- helpless and Zoe couldn't do much either.  But when the ship was breaking down and he needed Kailey to do her job, he didn't send Zoe to talk to her, he did it himself.  Zoe was damn competent, and someone who delegates can only dream of having her to delegate stuff to, but I'm thinking the only guy who could meet with the "could take care of the ship without her" criteria is the one who literally does every job with his own hands.

Qwinn

173

Why didn't he just call them "Don't Watch This If You're A Dude" and be done with it?

That's true enough.  I never would have watched it if my kid hadn't told me about it.

174

Qwinn,

My point is that if Mal were the only one running the ship, it would be in constant crisis until it fell apart.  Mal's good in a crisis, but isn't good at keeping operations running smooth.  Zoe's better at that, because she's engaged by her duties, rather than by her adrenalin.

175

Memorable Zoe quotes:

Alliance Commander: "You fought with Captain Reynolds in the war?"

Zoe: "Fought with a lot of people in the war."

Alliance Commander: "And your husband?"

Zoe: "Fight with him sometimes, too."

 

Kaylee: (pointing to a pink frilly dress) "Say, look at the fluffy one!"

Zoe: "Too much foofaraw. If I'm going to wear a dress, I'd want something with some slink."

Wash: "You want a slinky dress? I can buy you a slinky dress. Captain, can I have money for a slinky dress?"

Jayne: "I'll chip in."

Zoe: (to Jayne) "I can hurt you."

 

Book: "That bad?"

Zoe:  "Battle wounds are nothing new to me, preacher. I've seen men live with a dozen holes in 'em this size."

Book: "That right?"

Zoe: "Surely is. Knew a man once who had a hole clean through his whole shoulder. Used to keep a spare hankie in there."

 

Kaylee: "Well, we're headed for help... right?"

Zoe:  "Captain will come up with a plan."

Kaylee: "That's good. Right?"

Zoe: "Possibly you're not recalling some of his previous plans."

 

Zoe:  "You sanguine about the kind of reception we're apt to receive on an Alliance ship, Cap'n?"

Mal: "Absolutely." (beat) "What's 'sanguine' mean?"

Zoe:  " 'Sanguine'. Hopeful. Plus -- point of interest -- it also means 'bloody'."

Mal:  "Well, that pretty much covers all the options, don't it?"

 

Mal: "Zoe, would you get Wash?"

Zoe: "This is Zoe. We need all personnel in the cargo bay."

Mal: "'All?' I said Wash."

Zoe: "Captain, everyone should have a chance to congratulate you on your day of bliss."

Mal: "There's no bliss. I don't know this girl!"

Jayne: "Then can I know her?"

Zoe: "Jayne, don't sully this!"

Mal: "You are going to be cleaning out latrines with your face if you don't cut that out."

 

Zoe: "You paid money for this, sir? On purpose?"

Mal: "What? Come on, seriously, Zoe. Whaddya think?"

Zoe: "Honestly, sir? I think you got robbed."

Mal: "Robbed? What? No. What do you mean?"

Zoe: "It's a piece of fei-oo." [fei-oo. = junk]

Mal: "Fei-oo? Okay, she won't be winning any beauty contests anytime soon. But she's solid. Ship like this, be with ya 'til the day you die."

Zoe: "Cause it's a deathtrap."

 

Pompous Doctor: "Walk with me a minute."

Mal: "Where're we going?" (Zoe sneaks away, around and behind the doctor)

Pompous Doctor: "You see this badge? It says 'doctor'. I say walk, you walk."

Mal: "Yeah but, where're we going?"

Pompous Doctor: "You must be new." (Zoe walks up behind him) "Don't get comfortable, your type never lasts long around here. When your supervisor hears about the rude and disrespect--ARGH!!!" (falls to the ground, unconscious, revealing Zoe standing behind him with defib paddles)

Zoe:  (shrugs) "Clear."

 

Zoe: (sliding gun barrel alongside security guard's face) "You know what the definition of a hero is? Someone who gets other people killed. You can look it up later."

 

If Zoe's character were written for a man, they'd have to cast Gary Cooper to play it, because that is what Zoe's character is:  a female Gary Cooper, and she does a great job of it.  Jayne is written purposefully to be a bit buffoon for all his gruffness, but Zoe, in her understated way, can be much more menacing, and much more interesting. 

176

You know, if the series was eventually going down the plotline of the movie before it was cancelled, it was a hell of a good plot. And it totally fits the spirit of the episodal parts of the show, just fighting to get through the day while persuing their ideal, chasing the wind and living freely. I loved the movie. Although the movie satisfactorily completes the series.

But maybe it is for the best it was cancelled. God knows I wouldn't want it to become River the Reaver Slayer.

I'll confess, I liked Buffy...once, for a short while. And I got a kick out of the movie. Like the 1st season. It was fun. But I leapt off that ship and have no interest in the sorta... I dunno, progressive stylistically alt. rock vampire soap opera it ended up as, full of lesbian witches and bad-boy vampire love trysts.

Basically the minute the monsters stopped being something she stabbed mercilessly right before cheerleading practice and became her freakin angsty goth social peer group I was done.

177 I seem to be mesmerized by the phrase: Intergalactic Space-Whore

178

Entropy: there was only one lesbian witch.  Unfortunately.

Sindarian #163: Excellent call.  Or as older-school scifi people would recognize them: Mal is Kirk, Jayne is McCoy, and Zoe is Spock.  Except with boobs.

179 So, in the post-modern future where there we've moved beyond stereotypical gender roles (AKA What Wymyn Want), it's a no-no to treat a subordinate woman like you would a subordinate man?  And not only that, but in this future (where race no longer matters) we have to pay special attention to the color of the players?

It's no wonder I stay confused.  When did complaining become a virtue?

180

All I'm saying is, if it's got lesbian witches and bad boy vampire love-trysts, I want it directed by Quinten Tarontino, not Joss Whedon.

181 This is quite possibly the most bizarre part to me:

Zoe, of course, is meant to be our empowered, ass-kicking sidechick. Like all sidechicks she is objectified from the get go. Her husband, Wash, talking about how he likes to watch her bathe. Let me just say now that I have never personally known of a healthy relationship between a white man and a woman of colour. I have known a black woman whose white husband would strangle and bash her while her young children watched. My white grandfather liked black women because they were ‘exotic’, and he did not, could not treat women, especially women of colour, like human beings. I grew up watching my great aunts, my aunty and my mother all treated like shit by their white husbands, the men they loved. So you will forgive me for believing that the character, Wash, is a rapist and an abuser, particularly considering that he treats Zoe like an object and possession.

I'm a white male and my wife is black.  I've known my wife since 1997 and we've been married since 2003.  We have two children age 5 and 2.  We've had our share of arguments and problems just like other couples but at no time have I raised my hand in anger at her.  At no time have I been abusive.  We also know other mixed couples that share a similar experience.  We also know all white couples in abusive relationships and all black couples in abusive relationships.

For her to essentially paint a broad brush that white men are incapable of treating black women properly is just as disgusting as what she accuses Joss Whedon of.

182 Dunno if its been mentioned as I've not read all comments, but the negative consequences of all of these girls becoming slayers is dealt with to some extent in Angel and to again in an ongoing fashion in the Season 8 comics.  There are psychotic, vigilante, and other ways bad girls wielding slayer powers, so some of your feelings re ep 7.22 are not exntirely correct, Elydo.

183

Scott, you JUST. DON'T. GET. IT. You are  a white male. By definition, you are teh patriarchy. You are abusive just by BEING. And obviously, you silly post here is just an attempt to justify this horrific violence against oppressed womyn.

 

She hopes you die in  a fire.

184 Entropy said:

You know what I'd love to see in a story?

A feminine female heroine. A woman who 'kicks ass' and accomplishes shit, but does it without actually kicking ass and being able to benchpress 500 lbs (depite only weighing 110) and knows kung fu.

See Ripley in Alien and Aliens.  Probably the truest feminist female heroine I've seen in the movies.  I agree with you though that movies and TV shows nowadays seem to favor the 90lb girl with super-strength and abilities.

185 This essay brings to mind a quote by a great wiseman:

Necronomicon:
A fictional book that was entirely the invention of writer H.P. Lovecraft for use in his horror stories and for pwning wannabe necromancers. Several hoax versions of the Necronomicon exist, most notably a grimoire purportedly written by The Mad Arab, Abdul Alhazred. Lovecraft claimed that reading just one paragraph of The Necronomicon would turn a sane man into a gibbering lunatic. It is believed that most LiveJournal users have read the whole thing.

186 Er... I dunno, I think Ripley from Alien definitely belongs in the "kicking-ass" category of female heroines.  Then again, the setting is not a fair test of her abilities in that regard, at least not until she convinces the Alien Queen to stop eviscerating people with snappy dialogue and a rapier wit.

I still think Delenn from Babylon 5 is an excellent model of how to portray a female heroine without the absurd ass-kicking superpowers.

Qwinn

187 Qwinn: I'd also nominate Major Kira from DS9 and Starbuck from the new BSG.  They're both tough feminine women who use guns rather than magical kung-fu.

188 Except Delenn was a bonehead (literally)

189 I would just like to laugh at this for a moment:

"based the character of Xander Harris (a pro-porn, sex-obsessed teenage male in Buffy)"

You mean like all teenage males?

190 "(other than using sex appeal)"

Erm, what?  She seduced Sheridan (sort of)...  And was on the way with Sinclair.

191 Although I'm annoyed by the uber-ass-kicking female cliche too...

I have to note that the chief objection to this is that it's a silly fantasy and patently unrealistic.

However.

Given the fact that most male heroes simply cannot be hit by bullets and can kick virtually anyone's ass and defeat dozens of non-heroic foes, I have to question the premise that this is more unrealistic, in any nontrivial way, than how male heroes are treated.

It's just that heroes, period, can kick sometimes absurd amounts of ass; why do we suddenly say "That's not realistic" when it's a female doing it?

Han Solo chasing and then escaping dozens of stormtroopers =/= "realistic."

192 Entropy:

You're looking for an adult Nancy Drew

193 "For her to essentially paint a broad brush that white men are incapable of treating black women properly is just as disgusting as what she accuses Joss Whedon of."

With the added bit about being what she *really* thinks, and what she accuses Joss Whedon of exists in her fevered imagination.

But are we surprised that she's a racist hateful bigot skank?  No?  Didn't think so.

194 "You're looking for an adult Nancy Drew"

Veronica Mars! 

195

For femminine female heroines, anyone read George R R Martin?

Daenerys fits the description. And Arya kicks ass with speed and surprise and agility instead of strength.

Brienne is a woman who is actually large enough to fight men, but Martin has too much sense of reality to make her some kind of Ass-Kicing Grrrl Power Cliche. She's portayed as an oversized freak, and a very sad character.  

196

Entropy: there are three types of marble.

The views in this string are intriguing, for a change. Please sign me up for the Yeoman Rand/Alexthechick fanzine. Alex, you are a brick. Seriously.

Thanks also to Elydo and Synova for particularly thoughtful and literate comments. A pitiful handful of you morons might actually survive in a real literature class. In the English department.

Just once in my life was I able to make a date with a female to whom I was introduced in a tavern. I was a recent philosophy graduate, and was entranced that she majored in philosophy. At the University of Michigan. What can I say? It's like the first time you meet a tall woman. Moth, flame, pre-assembled.

And that is how I learned how full of shit Aristotle was, how all sex is rape, and that Catherine MacKinnon held a professorship at the University of Michigan. I also learned that (1) Ann Arbor is a long drive in the snow, in more ways than one, and (2) "memorable" can be a vat-drainingly pejorative term.

 

197

They're both tough feminine women who use guns rather than magical kung-fu.

Well..then that doesn't count. That's the same thing. It's much much more realistic, yes. But it isn't just the realism factor I'm griping on (although that's a part of it). But if she's using a gun, she's still essentially not a heroine, but a female hero. It's a masculine way of being heroic. I don't mind the kickass female hero, some of that is nice, I just said it seems to be all we get mostly. It's overrepresented, maybe. To alleviate the sausage fest we would otherwise have, we get female heros but we make females into heros by having them act like male heros. These are female heros, but where are the heroines? A feminine way of being heroic? Or does that not exist?

We get that sort of 'toughness' in a feminine way, sometimes, from villanesses. Again, Saphron in firefly came close the way she played everyone until she whipped out her ninja skillz and grabbed a gun. But then, again, at the end she was relying on a bunch of other dudes to finish the job. She just set it all up, played people against each other, etc. She was a great villain. And at times, Inara. But not quite. But those two in contrast to a Zoe or a River. And perhaps things potentially describable as scheming and coniving do not lend themselves to heroism.

It's just that heroes, period, can kick sometimes absurd amounts of ass; why do we suddenly say "That's not realistic" when it's a female doing it?

It's not realistic, but maybe a hero kicking ass isn't realistic because it's hyperbolized, but a heroine kicking ass isn't realistic because it's slightly absurd. You're stretching reality a bit further, if nothing else. The guys at least more often look the part. To have Summer Glau do this, she oughtta be 75 lbs heavier and have a bleached 'stache.

But that's not what brought it up. I don't mind it, I watch plenty of it and like it dandy, I just said I think it'd be interesting to see a bit more of what I'm talking about, which is an underused perhaps instead of overused cliche. (which would mean right now, it's not a cliche).

It's not that "that's not realistic", it's that "that's not feminine". If Joss Whedon is such a big feminist, giving us all this 'girl power' goodness...why do all his heroines become heroic by acting like men? Is that 'girl power', or is it tomboyism, wherein girls utilize male power, which from most contemporary works we might assume is the only kind of power worth having?

Basically I'm blaiming feminism for disempowering females in modern film, by destroying the (attainable) concept of female power and heroism in their attempt to allow women access to (unattainable and ultimately absurd) manly power. Physical prowess and ass-kickery, for instance, which is an arena they're inherantly and biologically disadvantaged in.

I want some of that, but I think this feminist notion is a good part responsible for the fact that, parts per million, we're practically drowning in super-strength kung-fu where leading 90lb waifettes are concerned.

198 Summer Glau's kick-assedness is essentially magical (okay, "psionics enhanced") so it doesn't matter how much she weighs. 

Judge me by my size, do you? 

/Yoda

199 Second.

Entropy needs to netflix Babylon 5, because IMO he is describing Daleen to a T.

200

I've seen Babylon 5.

I dunno. There seems to me to be too many characters, too many heros, to ascribe very much to any one of them, other then maybe the 2 commanders of the station. But perhaps so (I admit, it's been some time and I only partially recall it).

But maybe I phrased his all wrong. I'm not saying they don't exist, some do, just not as many. And I'm not really going out looking specifically for this, or really really sick and tired of magical girls - I don't really care.

I'm just saying that, I don't know what you guys watch, but with my sci-fi & anime fixations, I'm awash in magical girls over. Or gun-toting vixens. I just purchased the boxset of Noir and am eagerly waiting for it to arrive to watch that.

I just mean I find the Inara character mold more interesting and underused then the River one. I wouldn't mind seeing more Inaras, in general, showing up round and about. I find her intringuing and wish to suscribe to her newsletter.

201 By which I mean to say I'm currently petitioning Fox to give Ace the greenlight on Saffron, Intergalatic-Space Whore, because that was one devious, deadly, sexy chick.

202

Ace, you gotta push that spin-off on Fox. We've had a dearth of spin-offs lately, the last one I can think of was Angel.

Maybe Saffron has to hide out in the whore house they saved, or maybe she kills the crew, steals Serenity, changes her name to "Kristen" and charges 4,000 platinum/hour to satisfy planetary governors.

Fox'll go for it as long as you include half-nekkid honeys and throw in a few "when space animals attack".

203 "Summer Glau's kick-assedness is essentially magical (okay, "psionics enhanced") so it doesn't matter how much she weighs."

Yup, they must have psionically enhanced her bone structure and mass so that she doesn't immediately black out when punched in the face by a large man.

Basically, it's not just the suspension of disbelief that's the problem, it's that it's suspension of disbelief with an agenda. It's not a deal breaker, I still watch the show, but it's annoying.

204

The thing about firefly too though, is River wasn't even the main character. At least not to me. The show just happened to have a magical girl thrown into the mix. And a tough (but not magical) girl (zoe). And a sultry seductress (inara).

And a girl who totally breaks my dichotomy and comes out of left field, the quirky but cheery and charming slutty mechanic.

Now THAT's a new character mold altogether. I can think of no other 'slutty mechanic', ever.

River was central to the plot in the movie, but Mal was still the lead. In the series, River was central to a metaplot that hardly ever got started. In the various plots of the episodic episodes, she hardly factored at all into half of them.

Firefly really had a range of characters. And it struck me the other day they have a LOT of characters for this kind of a show. River, the doc, the shepherd, Mal, Inara, Kaylee, Zoe, Wash, and Jayne, and all 9 of them showed up in most every episode.

The Enterprise had a crew of 300 and I've seen Star Trek episodes with a lot less characters in them then that.

205 Entropy:

I think you're missing something.

The arch of Firefly and Serenity follows the Hero's Journey with Mal as the Hero. Everybody fits a very specific role. Whedon uses the Hero's Journey but he tries to force women into the role of the Hero. There is actually a separate type of cycle for Heroines and it's one that many people don't recognize.

In the Heroine's Path, she actually has to give up something that makes her female. It's a ritual sacrifice to set her apart from the rest of the world. In some stories she binds her breasts and cuts her hair (think Disney's Mulan) or she gives up the ability to bear children (I'm thinking specifically Mercedes Lackey's Oathbreaker series, here).

At the end of the Hero's Journey, he returns with whatever he needed to complete his quest and reintegrates into society. The Heroines Path doesn't stop when she returns with the quest item. She has to go on another journey to regain her femininity.

So, yes, the most successful stories with female heroines, the women will be at least a little bit masculine because they're following the Heroines Path. A one hundred percent feminine character will never be the Hero. Even Scarlett O'hara goes and digs in the dirt.

206

A one hundred percent feminine character will never be the Hero.

Well, that's what I was asking. Why not?

Just cuz? Or is our concept of heroism inherantly masculine? Is there no such thing as expressely 'feminine heroism', or does it exist but just not make for an entertaining movie?

207 In the real world, yes, there is feminine heroism but it doesn't play out well in an action movie. Feminine heroism makes for a great chick flick. Every good action movie will follow the Hero's Journey. Hell, George Lucas as much as admitted that he completely ripped off Hero With a Thousand Faces when he was writing Star Wars.

In the Hero's Journey, there is always an inciting incident. At some point, the Hero is going to have to make a sacrifice to allow him to continue his quest. For female leads, this sacrifice will include part of their femininity. This isn't necessarily because our idea of heroism is inherently masculine but because the sacrifice has to be something that is intensely personal. For both male and female characters, this often takes the form of ignoring their softer emotions. Since we seem to identify women more by their softer emotions, it's more pronounced in female leads than in male leads.

208 >>>Yup, they must have psionically enhanced her bone structure and mass so that she doesn't immediately black out when punched in the face by a large man.

I don't think you get it.  Think martial arts "chi." 

Psionics = precognition (dodge, roll with punches before the come) plus psychokinetic strength enhancement (i.e., her punches aren't just her muscles at work, but boosted by psychokinetic force that rides with her fist).

As for getting whacked:  psychokinetic shield/biofeedback/other nonsense.

I agree with you, actually, on the women-as-ultimate-ass-kickers being annoying and jarring and breaking the suspension of disbelief.  I'm not Mr. Super Feminist who doesn't see the problem here.

But I'm asking, both you and myself, why this bugs so much when, at most, we're talking about something that's 10-20% more implausible than the stuff heroic males do all the time.

I mean, that's not an order of magnitude.

209 I'm still trying to imagine what anyone means by feminine heroism.    Is it just the opposite of the masculine sort, which seems to be physical strength and the ability to fight?   Well, that just as easily describes the utterly non-heroic bully doesn't it?

I think, probably, it would make sense to first define heroism.   I would think that it must involve selflessness and risk, the more of each the better.  

And then, perhaps, we should define feminine.   Is it a description of female humans as they are, or a description of an ideal of civilization?   Can we agree that women are naturally violent despite a lack of anger inducing testosterone?  Can we agree that women are naturally ruthless?    Can we get past this notion that women are universally nurturing and admit that it's only in situations of extreme wealth (such as in the US) that women do not favor their own children with a fierce partiality and too bad about the rest?   Can we admit that to protect my own that taking up a weapon is an entirely feminine response?

210 Maybe it bugs (me too) more when it's a skinny little girl being impossible instead of a male character being impossible because at least the male actor usually makes a nod to muscles and training.    Maybe it's the tiny, skinny, part.

211

Entropy

I'll second geek's suggestion that if you're looking for womanly heroism you try George R. R. Martin's Ice and Fire series.

But I'm asking, both you and myself, why this bugs so much when, at most, we're talking about something that's 10-20% more implausible than the stuff heroic males do all the time

Dontcha you know it's because all you men are the rape-army of  The Oppresive Patriarchy?  You all want easy prey!

Seriously though, it bothers the crap out of me because I strength train 3 days a week and my husband, who's idea of a workout is PVP in Warcraft, can EASILY overpower me. That's why I carry a Glock 19.

212

Story arch. Heroine's Path.

Sweet Magdalene, run for the hills, folks. Zombie Joseph Campbell walks the earth once more. And he's got A Thousand Faces.

213

But I'm asking, both you and myself, why this bugs so much when, at most, we're talking about something that's 10-20% more implausible than the stuff heroic males do all the time

Because, deep down at heart, we're all really, really afraid of getting our asses kicked by a girl?

Heh.

I don't know. It's just sort of backwards.

Can we agree that women are naturally violent despite a lack of anger inducing testosterone? 

.....probably not.

Can we agree that women are naturally ruthless? 

Oh hell yes. No doubt. Mean. Fuckin mean in ways a man could never be. They'll psychologically annihilate you.

They won't sock you in the face though.

But damn, you'll wish they would have instead.

Women can be formidable. I've met chicks that, the things they'll do and lengths they'll go to, have scared me. But never in a sense that I was scared 'this woman is going to beat me up kungfu style'.

Never in my life - well, not since I was 13 and outgrew my mother - have I feared an ass woopin by a woman.

I guess I lied when I said guns don't make it any different - they do. Thinking about what I've watched and tend towards - I DO watch a lot of 'chicks with guns' and enjoy it, but now that I think about, I do often tend to roll my eyes at chicks in unarmed combat or with melee weapons. The show better have some other appeal or hook as well, or I'm just 'meh'.

214 I may be coming at this from an entirely different perspective. I'm a literature major and I'm writing my senior thesis on Fantasy as Literature. I'm currently taking two film classes, Film as Literature and Film as Social History.

Here are some of my definitions, which I'm borrowing from Joseph Campbell who developed some of the greatest tools for analyzing modern myths.

A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man.

Every hero goes on a journey. The stages of this journey are as follows:
A call to adventure, which the hero has to accept or declineA road of trials, regarding which the hero succeeds or failsAchieving the goal or "boon", which often results in important self-knowledgeA return to the ordinary world, again as to which the hero can succeed or failApplying the boon, in which what the hero has gained can be used to improve the world
When dealing with literature, and with film in particular, you are dealing with ideals. Whether or not the film reflects a reality, it will reflect the ideals of the person who made it. Apply this to Whedon's works as a whole, and it is quite obvious that his ideal woman is one who does not need a man to be safe. The fact that they are all super-ninjas is a comment on the use of weapons. Notice that the people who use guns as their first form of violence are often portrayed as neanderthal throwbacks, like Jayne.

It is completely natural for a woman to pick up a weapon and defend her family. However, we're not dealing with nature, we're dealing with fantasy. In the Modern American ideal, as interpreted by Hollywood, women are beautiful, sexually powerful, sexually liberated, and strong. However, their strength is difficult to show in an action setting without giving it traditionally "male" connotations. Men, on the other hand, are either weak (Wash) or gun toting idiots (Jayne). The men who fit the Heroic or manly ideal are misfits (Mal).

In creating a movie, the director is supposed to create a place where you can enter into a willing suspension of disbelief. However, as you all are saying, by making stretch for that suspension of disbelief too difficult, they will pull you out of the experience. I think that's part of what bothers a lot of conservatives about Hollywood movies these days. Writers and Directors are putting their ideals on the screen and they end up being caricatures or completely unbelievable.

Wow, okay, long post but I hope it helps explain a little about what is going on.

215

Maybe it bugs (me too) more when it's a skinny little girl being impossible instead of a male character being impossible because at least the male actor usually makes a nod to muscles and training.    Maybe it's the tiny, skinny, part.

And when, unlike River in Firefly but in something like Buffy or Dark Angel, she's in high heels with froo-froo pretty hair and lipstick, seriously and without humor about it, it exacerbates the issue.

Then mix in beating up the bad guys in between writing articles for the paper and advancing her career while balancing her love life which features a different pretty boy every week because her secret life of ninja-pwnage keeps her distant and remote, despite her desire to develop a meaningful relationship with a decent, nice, normal guy.

Bleh. Gag me.

You know what, I know why I hate it! It's shoujo! This shit is supposed to be fantasy for little girls. I don't know why I just realized that.

216 Rawr!

Braaaaainssss . . . Plooooot Liiiiiiines . . .

217 Doesn't the broad, radical definition of rape imply that rape ought to be legal? If it's just normal sex, or something a person can essentially be pronounced guilty of when they litterally have done nothing at all, dosen't that necessarily make it something other than a crime? Do gender feminists even have a word for "the criminal act of forcible intercourse" as opposed to things like "writing fiction in which people address superiors as 'sir' and having sex with one's wife"?

218 Hm, just thought of another entry in the "heroic women who don't asskick"... Dr. Weir from Stargate: Atlantis.

Qwinn

219

Dr. Weir from Stargate: Atlantis

Good call.

220 Is this thing still on?  Seriously, I go to work and sleep and all y'all get interesting again.  Stop that!

Alex:  are you married?

Not currently and probably not ever again.  Wait.  Are you rich?  With a bad heart?  Then I'm all yours, baby! 

 Please sign me up for the Yeoman Rand/Alexthechick fanzine. Alex, you are a brick. Seriously.

Now I'm all blushy.  *scuffs toe in dirt*

My preference for girls with guns/swords/Milla killing zombies is well known.  But I agree that the wee little chick who can beat the hell out of everyone thing is infuriating. Look, I can buy Uma with the sword and ninja powers because she's 14 feet tall.  Kristen Bell?  Not so much.  I think Angela Petrelli on Heroes may be a very feminine villian.  It's not clear what her power is yet, but it seems to be manipulation of some sort.  She doesn't fight, she merely lifts an eyebrow and things happen.  It's quite fascinating.

Do gender feminists even have a word for "the criminal act of forcible intercourse" as opposed to things like "writing fiction in which people address superiors as 'sir' and having sex with one's wife"?

It's all rape, simply of varying degrees.  That's the horrifying thing about it, when you stop and consider.  It's equating a drunken jackass yelling "shut up bitch!" at his girlfriend with a woman who has been brutally, violently gang banged.  To the truly hard core gender feminists, it is precisely the same thing.  It's sickening. 

True story - I got the high honor of actually called Catherine MacKinnon an idiotic, self-impressed, humorless cunt face to face.  I will be proud of that until the day I die. 

221 Princess Ce'Nedra from the Belgariad might also fit the bill. Tiny, willful, over-emotional and self-absorbed, but she channels that into beneficial circumstances. In the Mallorean Velvet could also be a consideration.

Alex, you cool ^^

I reckon I'd clink a beer with whatever you'd be drinking any day.

222 You know who my favorite superhero chick is?  Edna Mode.  Hands down. 

223 True story - I got the high honor of actually called Catherine MacKinnon an idiotic, self-impressed, humorless cunt face to face.  I will be proud of that until the day I die.

Okay, I wanted to marry you before, but not enough to say so.  Now I'm willing to say it!  And sorry, I'm not rich, but I -can- work on the bad heart thing, if it helps!

And Heroes is actually good to review for the sort of thing Entropy is asking for.  Hmmm.  Other than Angela Petrelli as a villainess though, no, not really seeing any non-ass-kicking heroines.  The cheerleader, while a somewhat likable charater, actually doesn't strike me as particularly heroic, because, well, she can't get hurt, so actual courage hasn't exactly been a must-have trait for her, plus she really hasn't done anything worthy of being called heroic that I can think of yet anyway.

Qwinn

224 Jesus, I'm just going to have to take the comma key off of my keyboard permanent-like after that last sentence.  Sheesh.

Qwinn

225

In a show like Heroes, the ass kicking doesn't really bother me. At all.

I'm not bitching about Wonder Woman. True comicesque Superheros are superheros. If you can buy into the universe with freakin x-ray eyes and pyrokinesis you can buy into 'really strong chick' without batting a lash.

It's just that sort of setting. Being super strung kungfu man/woman is actually quite week when you've got people freezing time and hurling bolts of radiation at you.

I like Heroes. And all the cheerleader needs to do is keep wearing that cheerleader skirt.  She's a hero in my book.

World? Saved. Now bend over.

226

Seriously though, everybody and their grandma has crazy superpowers in that show. LITERALLY. And their grandma.

Except Suresh. Poor bastard.

227 Grammar and punctuation are for the weak.  Not us morons.

I'm still completely bitter that on Supernatural they took Ava and turned her into another demon chick.  She was fantastic when she was a very scared, but very determined, 20ish women who was terrified but still saw things through.  That was fun and cool and she didn't know how to kick ass but that wasn't going to stop her.  And thus she had to be turned into a demon and then killed off.  You should have seen the LJ wank that happened over that, it was deemed proof positive that Ye Olde Patriarchy could not handle a strong woman. 

I like Heroes. And all the cheerleader needs to do is keep wearing that cheerleader skirt.  She's a hero in my book.

Hells yes.  I give them credit though, there was equal opportunity shirtless wet chained up Peter.  When you're exploiting everyone, that's fine then.

228 I totally concede on the "if it's superhero powers we're talking about, it's all good" point.  You're right.  But it -is- interesting to note that they actually focus on giving that sort of physical power to the women on the show, while giving the men basically non-violent powers.

Men get:  Time Travel, Phasing, Telepathy, Invisibility, the Midas touch, Cyberpunkness, Flying.  All relatively non-aggressive powers.  Even Peter, the one guy allowed to have aggressive powers is basically an empath.

Women get:  Super strength, Invulnerability, the chick copycatting wrestlers, Black Eyes of Death, shooting bolts of lightning.  All basically hyper-aggressive powers in comparison.

Hmmm.

Qwinn

229 Oh, forgot to mention, the most evil guy on the show besides Sylar got... the power to heal.  Flowers.

A woman does gets the passive ability to locate people, but I suppose even they thought it would be getting silly to give a 9 year old girl overwhelming physical prowess.

Qwinn

230

Women get:  Super strength, Invulnerability, the chick copycatting wrestlers, Black Eyes of Death, shooting bolts of lightning.  All basically hyper-aggressive powers in comparison.

Hmm. I never thought about that...

Honestly, like I said, being super-kung fu man is week in a world where people hurl radiation at you. (I'm not sure if emitting gamma rays is a masculine or feminine trait).

The powers they give the chicks, in that respect, hasn't made any of them the strongest. Copycat girl and multiple-personality strong woman don't stand a chance at comparitively 'non-violent' time stoppage. Hiro is one of the most powerful heros around, overall as a combination of ability and how he uses it. And Peter is just plain overpowered with ability and needs to be knee-capped with personality/character weaknesses and amnesia and shit to keep him in check or it's just cheezefest. Call every episode "stall until Peter gets here" and be done with it.

But you're right..

I'm trying to think of any you forgot that would add balance...

Emitting radiation (I'd call that aggressive), Sylar stealing powers (aggresive).... uhh.....  one other guy also get's invulnerability.

Figure the Haitian is canceled out by Isaac's precognition.

On the woman's side? Syler took "super hearing" from a girl, which cancels out with cheerleader's real mama being pyrokinetic...and...uh...'ability to locate people'

You're on to something.

What did the chick Sylar and Kensei killed do?

We must consult the Wiki 

231 Reaaaally shouldn't dignify this rant with a response, but what the hell. Whatever your views about men, women, womyn, misogyny, feminism, or the writing of Joss Whedon, it's barely possible to know a thing about the man and his work and think "There is so much hatred towards women contained within..."

This about a man whose cause of choice is Equality Now -- an organization that "works to end violence and discrimination against women and girls around the world through the mobilization of public pressure." In fact he was honored by them last year. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaczoJMRhs">His acceptance speech</a> starts about 2 minutes in on this video. To label him part of the problem, any problem, is frankly laughable.

"From what I've read about him and the interviews I've watched, I'm fairly certain that he rapes his wife and abuses her in various other ways."

And incidentally, I find the use of the word rape to describe anything other than actual rape, about as useful and appropriate as co-opting the terms nazi and holocaust to help describe anything but. I'm an unapologetic Whedon fan who loves the men and women of his stories equally. Even (especially?) the baddies. And as a woman who had to WWF her way out of her bedroom and onto the roof when some illegal asshole broke into her home and tried to rape her -- and who still adores and is wholly fulfilled by sex with her man, whoever initiates it...? Well... you sure don't speak for me, girl. I'm having a blast in my healthy  girl-on-guy relationship and wish you were, too. Maybe you'd be less... angry?

(Oh, and I couldn't let this pass from above... "I kid you not, the show has Spike raping Buffy near the end of Season Six." Nope -- no rape. Spike tries to coerce even force himself upon Buffy after she calls things off with him, but after a sharp kick to the torso, he backs off, horrified with himself. Sex was the only way that Buffy would ever let Spike in, and in a sick panic, he tries to play his only trump card, only to find the game had changed.)

232 Whoops, no html then. Joss Whedon's Equality Now speech. (Starts 2 minutes in.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaczoJMRhs

233

Sylar's ability is "intuitive understanding of how things work" which he uses to steal powers. I'd call that aggressively using a non-aggressive and non-physical ability. I don't know what to consider telekinesis (he took it from a guy). Leaving those two and peter out of it...

You're definetly right about the main characters.

Men (aggressive or physical powers) - regeneration; memory manipulation;

(non-aggressive/physical) - Technopathy; flight; flight again; telepathy; time manipulation; precognition; phasing; transmutation; healing.

2 -  9

Women (aggressive or physical) - strength; disease; muscle mimickry; electrical; regeneration again;

(non) clairvoyance

5 - 1

Definite.

Now to include the side characters

male (aggro/phys) - radiation; liquification

(non) - telepathy again; invisibility

2 - 2

Female (aggro/phys) - pyrokinesis

Not counting: Illusion (making people hallucinate) and persuasion (making people do whatever you tell them to) because I'm not sure what to do with that.  - probably aggressive.

(non) - eidetic memory; pyschometry; enhanced hearing;

1 - 3

Grand totals (conservatively) Men - 4 : 11, Women - 6 : 4.

234 Entropy,

Hmmm.  Fair enough.  Let's add a caveat to my rule then:  Men get non-violent powers and women get violent powers.  Any exceptions to this rule will be killed by Sylar, usually within a single episode of the introduction of the character.  This takes care of the exceptions of super hearing woman and Charlie (memory), both of whom have fairly passive powers, and Brian Davis, whose telekinesis is arguably an aggressive power (he lasts all of 30 seconds).  Two characters, Eden (persuasion) and Candice (illusion) manage to last more than an episode, but they are in fact inevitably killed off by Sylar as is their solemn duty.

And in my rule's favor, let's add the dreamwalking indian kid and Black Eyes of Death's brother.  And as you noted, Claire's real mother and Isaac.

Qwinn

235

Damn..forgot "dream sharing".

Men 4:12, women 6:4

236 Erf, was writing that while you posted yours.  And yeah, now that I think about it, Eden's "persuasion" is really more accurately labelled "coercion", and as such should qualify as an aggressive power.  And illusion?  Mmmm.  Tough call on that one.  It certainly lends itself to all sorts of aggressive uses, but I guess it's kinda neutral.  I do think telekinesis does qualify as an aggressive/physical power, though the guy who gets it lasts, as noted, about 30 seconds.

Qwinn

237

  Any exceptions to this rule will be killed by Sylar, usually within a single episode of the introduction of the character.

Within a single episode? Pssh.

Try "will be introduced BY being killed by Sylar, i.e. This was Joe. He was telekinetic".

238 Oh, and there's the guy who can liquify metals... which is mildly more aggressive than the Midas touch, I suppose, but I don't think it can really be called an aggressive power.

Qwinn

239 "Try "will be introduced BY being killed by Sylar, i.e. This was Joe. He was telekinetic"."

Bah.  Joe was at least allowed to be seen breathing for a few seconds.  Try Molly Walker's dad (Iceman powers) for a -serious- example of that trend, heh.  Well, I always assumed the Iceman powers guy was Molly's dad, anyway.  Wiki doesn't seem to mention him.

Qwinn

240

let's add the dreamwalking indian kid and Black Eyes of Death's brother.

If you include Alejandro, 4:13.

I'm not sure if he actually had "the super power of being able to stop his sister from using her super power" or, being her brother, was just able to calm her bitch ass down. It's ambiguous.

Maybe his superpower was "evading border patrol". But how would you tell?

241

Oh, and there's the guy who can liquify metals... which is mildly more aggressive than the Midas touch, I suppose, but I don't think it can really be called an aggressive power.

He could only liquify metals? I thought he could liquify anything (people).

3:14.

You're definetly right.

242

EVEN if you include (as I am) the 15 second red-shirt wonders and barely-mentioneds, the ratio is still skewed as all hell in support of your observation.

243 I'm going to stick my head into this very interesting conversation just to say how amused I am to discover that the word "phasing" has taken on a common understanding. Did you learn that meaning from Star Trek or perhaps some comics.

244 True story - I got the high honor of actually called Catherine MacKinnon an idiotic, self-impressed, humorless cunt face to face.  I will be proud of that until the day I die. 

Posted by: alexthechick at March 26, 2008 06:41 PM

As if we didn't have enough reason to idolize you, Alex!

And I'm not rich and I don't have a heart condition, but I have sleep apnea so I sleep with medical equipment strapped to my head, so you can pretend that I'm about to die, and let's face it, inheriting a fortune as a widow is 50% mental anyway. Or 25% in this case, since I'm not rich, but 25% is better than nothing.

And I promise to try REAL HARD to get that copy of Milla we talked about on the cloning thread.

Oh, and that crazy Allecto wacko is just a creepy jerk with control and impulse issues, and I think Zoe is funny. I mean, come on, "I'm sorry, Doctor, was there someone you are good at talking to?" She just has a dry wit, that's all.

245 You know, sometimes the formatting posting here is just insane. All those lines and text size changes were all on minx, not me.

In my first attempt to post that, I couldn't turn Italics off no matter what I tried.

I was going to complain, but then I realized... moronblog... what was I expecting?

246 "Dr. Weir from Stargate: Atlantis."

Weak.

Laura Roslin?  I'll be in my bunk.

247

Now Jayne, Jayne is a fundementally bad person. We occaisonally are revulsed by his actions, and probably would feel quite revulsed by his actions alot more if Mal didn't essentially have a collar on him. The guy is a dog. A mean, savage pit bull.

Nah.  Jayne only really did one "bad" thing in the series, where he doublecrossed the rest of the crew.  He's just kind of unrestrainded in his selfishness.  And he did show something of a conscience on the mud planet.

Now, Saffron, she was "bad".  In every sense of the word.  And the blue hand guys they were pretty bad too.

248 I guess since only a non-specific person and a free-roaming internal organ posted after I did, it's a technical thread-kill.

249 Thank you all for a wonderful read!  Very entertainment.  Most of you are my knid of stupid, too.

PS: Zoe was sane. 

250

  He's just kind of unrestrainded in his selfishness.  And he did show something of a conscience on the mud planet.

He did? Dumping the money on them was an accident.... I don't recall.

As for Saffron - we'll he's no where near so noble as Mal about that, he tried to trade her for a rifle!

Mal really is noble. To some extent he pretends to be a rogue, but he's just a very determined utilitarian. He'll do whatever he has to to protect himself and his crew, including very unromantic (but realistic and human) things like shooting people in the back. But he definetly operates with a code of honor. He's not abou to turn his dying army buddies body over even after the guy shot the place up and took Kaylee hostage. But he WAS willing to kill him. Ant that seemed like it was avoidable, but he can be very severe and rigid.

But Jayne? Let's just say if Jayne was running the ship, I think 9 out of 10 episodes would have been different because they would have gone like this :

1) shoot everybody

2) loot bodies

3) buy whores

251 And don't forget Mal got him on his crew buy bribing him to doublecross his old crew.

252 I found you through Conservative Grapevine and I just have to comment. I'm not going to say anything about this stupid woman, because she is just too terribly obnoxious to justify a well-thought response. She's just looking for an excuse to be offended. If Zoe were the Captain, she'd be up in arms about an unrealistic show. If Zoe were to act like Mal...I can only imagine the anger. She just needs a boot to the head.

I hate to do this, especially in the first comment I make, but I have to disagree with you on Zoe. She was my favorite character. And she's the one I liked to quote the most. Best line: "Sir, I think you have a problem with your brain being MISSING." She was the one who was there with the zingers every time. She respected Mal, she followed orders, but by choice. It was obvious that if Mal went overboard, she'd walk. There was a line he would not cross, because of Zoe. And she was the only one who could pop that over-inflated ego he'd get every other episode.

253 1) Entropy - dumping the money wasn't the conscience part, it was when he "confessed" that to the mudders, knocked down the statue, and had an (almost) self-reflective moment afterward during the "don't make no kinda sense" scene on the ship.

2) Kit - Welcome, and I hope you know what you're getting into!

254 I read the whole 'essay' and, while I found some valid points, the majority of it left me scratching my head in confusion - BUT so did your response to her comments on Zoe. Are you saying Josh wrote her that way on purpose? To serve NO PURPOSE? Wouldn't that make the original poster's view more valid? Zoe is supposed to be a strong soldier, backup for her commander, his compass, so to speak. In that, she served a valuable role and in a way, represented the best that women could be. But everything you wrote about her actually supports the original poster's viewpoint.

255

Geez Chris,

 

I think you need your balls re-attached. Did you really just apologize to this lady (and I use the term loosely) for being a man (already a big NO NO in the feminazi's handbook) who disagreed with her opinion? And after she deleted your post because you weren't pro-radical feminist (aka batshit insane) enough? Can't you see this woman won't listen to dissenting opinions of any kind? Now well-adjusted, open-minded people would be willing to hear others out and maybe ultimately agree to disagree. That is called common courtesy for a fellow, thinking human being.

 

Sadly for you, my intrepid internet explorer, you have had the misfortune of stumbling across the black hole of human decency—this blog just vacuums up any real discourse in favor of ass-licking kumbaya group hugging feminazi reach-arounding lesbo orgiastic (MS spell check considers that a word? Go figure) pandering bullshit. If you think for yourself, then you're SOL because this is not the place for anything that diverges even in the slightest from our dear Allecto’s crazy worldview (women tend to get a bit hysterical, don’t they? How quaint).

 

Good thing she's not in charge of our country, or we'd have far worse laws than the Patriot Act. She'd be like Dick Cheney, except instead of shooting geriatric lawyers, she'll be herding men into concentration camps for mandatory castration. But judging by your obsequious tone, you're practically a woman already so you might be spared the figurative axe.

 

I’m just wondering why do you even bother agreeing with her? She is like an unstoppable force of nature (ever wonder why hurricanes used to be given only female names up until the govt got all politically correct?). She can't be bought, bargained, threatened or reasoned with. Do you think that throwing out a few platitudes along the lines of “oh I’m so pro-radical feminism my wang is starting to invert itself into a pussy (aka cock magnet; synonym: woman’s mouth and other tight orifices)” will really gain her acceptance?

 

She hates men, which happens to include you (don't worry, it's prob just penis envy). You really need to come to grips with your not being in her good graces… ever… unless you cut off your wang, sprout a pair of funbags and call yourself Christine. That might satisfy her, though she will likely give you a swift kick to the nads just to make sure your transformation into an empowered and enlightened woman (lesbian) is complete.

 

I can't think of how any self-respecting man could possibly support her agenda when it entails the eradication of mankind (and ironically womankind) via absolute 100% hot, steamy, sexy chick-on-chick action... titty balls rubbing on each other… blow on it… erm... I'll be in my bunk. Um, where was I? Oh yes. Too bad for her that this vision is full of fail (other than hot chick-on-chick action).

Instead of equality, she wants something more. She wants men to castrate and kill themselves in shame at their centuries-long oppression of womenkind, leaving the superior sex to bring peace and harmony to a world full of unicorns and butterflies and space bunnies. I assume this is what she wants based on the couple of posts I’ve read. Hey, if she figured that Joss Whedon must rape his wife on a daily basis because there’s no way she could’ve married him for anything but money, then I’m simply holding her to the same shallow standards by which she makes her own analyses.

 

It's obvious this lady just needs a good humping. Oh I'm sorry. A good dildo-assisted lesbo humping cuz hanky panky involving a male would be rape, right? Yes, ladies and gents, this person believes all heterosexual affairs constitute rape. Well it's a damn good thing for our species that she's gay because whatever genes she's carrying would take the cake at the Darwin awards.

Those same pro-crazy lesbo genes have weeded her outta the gene pool, but no worries, it’s not like she would’ve found a decent man anyways. Judging by her picture, and according to her definition of rape as any form of coerced sex, any dude she sleeps with would be getting raped, and subsequently mind-fucked the next morning when she subjects him to live readings of her blog. I would only wish such a special Hell upon the dregs of humanity—child molesters and people who talk at the theater. You don’t talk at the theater, do you, Chris?

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