1

Much of Catholic theology seemed really socialistic to me, which was a big driving force in our leaving the RC Church.  One big example off the top of my head:  the whole idea of communal penance....I'm supposed to feel guilty or ask forgiveness for and tie myself to the sins of others now?  If some schmuck in the back of the church beats the crap out of his wife that's now my sin?  No gracias.

2 Gabe, never trust the Brit media on anything involving the Catholic Church, and don't make me slap you for blasphemy like Sean Connery.

3 Genetic-engineering a sin? what? Thank God I'm a Protestant.

4 Please....look at the source of this. This was an article about the declining use of Confession with the Cardinal.  The Church has not made any proclamations of 'New Sins'. Just the press completely misunderstanding Rome....again.

5 Gabriel, you have been misinformed.

1)  British reporting on religious affairs is usually untrustworthy

2) British reporting on Catholic affairs is usually extremely untrustworthy.

The whole matter was based on an interview given by a Vatican official who is not responsible for determining new dogma on sin.  Whatever Monsignor Gianfranco Girotti mentioned concerning social behavior was simply his opinion, not a Vatican edict.  The Brit press, naturally, said to hell with that - sell papers.

More here.

6 I am surprised that the AoS LifeStyle™ is not included in that list.

7 So that twinkie wrapper that I threw on the ground in the back lot of my grandmas house back when I was seven has condemned me to to eternal damnation?

Oh well, in for a penny, in for a pound. I guess, I'll call my new best bud Elliot and see if he can hook me up with some hookers and blow.

8 Nothing ex cathedra here.  Just socialist media types glorifying fellow-travelers within the Vatican.  Zero significance, beyond the media's own self-pleasuring.

9 Addendum to that last post.....Looking over the english translation of the interview in L'Ossevetore Romano, it appears that the Bishop was talking about the list of new modern sins. However, some sins would be serious(Such as unethical genetic manipulation) While others would be less so, pollution etc, depending on the scope of the transgression. Anyway, these aren't new sins, all of these fall under traditional Church teachings regarding respect for life and being a good caretaker of the earth. Typical of the media to sensationalize.

10 Just so I understand...what's the dividing line between risque rich and obscenely rich?  And does it just apply to individuals or would it also apply to institutions, like, say, you know, the Catholic Church?

11 I think sucking your own dick (nickel back for example) should have been added to the list.

12 I agree with  Charybdis - if anyone is obscenely rich it's the pope - he is sitting on one of the largest piles of gold in the world.

13

I do hope the above commenters are correct.  If polluting is now a deadly sin, who among us can ever be saved?  Especially since the Supreme Court recognized C0₂ as a pollutant, simply exhaling is pollution.  Killing yourself is a mortal sin.  So what would a good Catholic do?  You can't breathe and you can't not breathe.  You could walk around with a rebreather, but those have filters that wear out and must be changed.  Pollution!

14 "I think sucking your own dick (nickel back for example) should have been added to the list."

BaaawwwwwHaaaawwww!!!!! Good stuff.

So...is watching two chicks munch each other still a sin?
Guess I'm going down then (not in the Nickelback style though)

15

Three points -

1.  This was published in the L’Osservatore Romano, which is a bit like the National Enquirer of Vatican newspapers.  Publishing a "list of sins" in a newspaper doesn't make something part of Church doctrine.

2.  The "Church" didn't say anything of the kind.  This was one bishop (out of more than 2500).  And everyone says stupid things sometimes. 

3.  What he did do was try to list "sins" in more understandable ways.  You shall not kill -- even if it's a tiny embryo.  You must care for the earth, even if you run a mega-corporation.  "Obscenely wealthy" (whatever that means) is another way of saying "greed".  etc. etc. etc.

 

 

16

I need some guidence here, Padre.

How will I know, when I've crossed the line from merely rich to obscenely rich?

Does the price of my hookers have anything to do with it?

 

17

Pretty much everybody who comments here is going to Hell, why quibble about "Why"? 

18

When all those bible verses and prophecies and what-not were talking about how many people were going to leave the Church right before The End, they never mentioned how freaking easy the Church was going to make it.

Unfair.

19 Seven Deadly Sins of AOS Lifestyle:

7) 2.0 or less on Breathelyser test

6) Letting last hobo escape killing frenzy because blood lust slaked.

5) Talking to real girl in person, unless said girl is already properly duck-taped and in truck of car

4) Sharing solos

3) Not crying manly tears at the end of anything, like say, the last dab of Skippy in jar.

2) Causing Ewok injustice

1) Not thinking "I'd hit it" if object, animal, person has hole

20

>>Pretty much everybody who comments here is going to Hell.

I am a Hindu, and I haven't signed over the title papers to my soul to the Pope. So I am going to hell regardless.

21 Here's a hot steamin' bowl of irony for ya -- Gregor Mendel, who's considered the father of modern genetics, was an Augustinian priest.

So...

Are we to assume Father Mendel is currently roasting in The Fiery Pit?

22 Much love for my Catholic brethren, but this is  reason #583,193 why I'm Protestant. I'm sorry , but I cannot acknowledge that any earthly power has the authority to designate sins not already mentioned in the Bible. You know, that book believed to be the Word of God? Hubris, thy name is Rome.

Again.

23 In before for the Catholic bashing.


oh, too late


WTF is this?
Did I enter KOS or the DU or is this AoS?

24 Once again I have to tell my Church to fuck off. I'm really getting tired of that.

You're aware that Cardinal Bertone (secretary of state for the Holy See) just returned from Cuba after blow...errr...serving Fidel...err...Raul Castro.

You can be further annoyed.

25 I am surprised that the AoS LifeStyle™ is not included in that list.

Posted by: Tushar D at March 11, 2008 12:08 PM (IlgNp)

It's in the first list.  In several places.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins

Pretty much everybody who comments here is going to Hell, why quibble about "Why"? 

Posted by: Veeshir at March 11, 2008 12:21 PM (zXUuJ)

Speak for yourself. 

 

 

 

 

26

>>Catholic bashing

Bart, the Catholic Church has already consigned me to hell. I am just making small jokes. And I am bashing them?

BTW, I don't have anything against any religions, except the one we all know about. But I reserve the right to riff on them all, including my own.

27 Not thinking "I'd hit it" if object, animal, person has hole

Um, I believe you've mis-spelled squeakhole.

28

Bart/Darth, et. al.

    Fair enough.  This list is probably not of new mortal sins so much as new ways to commit the same old ones.

    But man.  Saying that you can be sinfully rich?  Come on.  The Pope owns more stuff than anyone, even if it isn't in his name.

29

Please post follow-ups. Local papers across the country have picked up the wire service lead and headlined it "Vatican lists new sins." They forgot to tell everyone not to pay attention. I doubt we'll see the retractions.

This is the real "spirit of Vatican II" in action.

30

I am a Hindu, and I haven't signed over the title papers to my soul to the Pope.

Which is exactly how they view the situation. Jesus said: "All that the Father has given ME will come to ME." No mention of being owned by an Earthly temporal power. Funny, that.

31

What is that saying Gabriel Malor, about a lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes?

Check your sources before telling anyone to Fuck Off., and it would have saved you much face.

32

Wait, wait wait. The Catholic Church is now declaring that pedophilia is a mortal sin? Um, hello? Does anyone else here see the Mount Everest size irony in this/

I mean, the same church that has for, how many DECADES now, not only allowed its priests to prey on children and then protected them as well as going after the victims? That Catholic Church?

Look, I mean no offence to my Catholic friends. I was once in the church. But come on, this is just too much for me. When the church comes clean and stops trying to hide the records on priests who have been shifted around from parish to parish to continue molesting children, when the church starts paying serious restitution to these victims and apologizes publicly and repeatedly for allowing such unspeakable crimes to be committed under the guise of "religion," then maybe they can talk about sins.

It's too bad, because although I don't agree with much of the Catholic Church's stand on doctrine, they are right on most of the moral issues. I just wish they would try to live by what they preach.

33 polluting,
Does CO2 count as pollution?  If so breathing is now a mortal sin, and should be avoided at the cost of your life.  Which, last I checked, it will.

genetic engineering,
Well this makes sense.  The Catholic religion has a very good track record of being involved in Science and directing scientific interests properly.  Like that whole "world is round" nonsense from Vespucci and Galileo.  They needed killing.

being obscenely rich,
Because being a useful, productive member of society is bad.  Wealth is a measure (in many/most cases) of the useful/productive quotient.  If what you know/do/invent is truly useful, you'll get paid more; or get paid by more people.

Which I guess is bad for society.  If only nobody made anything useful, or grew food, or invented anything new; and we all lived in trees until we died of old age at 20; then we could be good Catholics; and good humans.

drug dealing,
So, are Pharmacists on this hook, or off it?  How about anesthesiologists (holy crap, spell check say I got that right...)?  Does it depend on what the drugs are used for?  If I sell Valium in the street corner, and my neighbor sells the same valium in a pharmacy, am I on the hook for a mortal sin while he's perfectly fine?  Basically, is this a moral sin for failing to be properly licensed?

abortion,
I'd comment here, but this one has been rechewed enough that I'm not interested in taking a bite.


pedophilia
This wasn't one already?  Well, that explains some issues I suppose.


causing social injustice
Well damn.  I hope none of the founding fathers were Catholic.  Damn "Boston Tea Party" and such, definite "social injustice" in their form of Government (and all others).  Actually, "social inequality" is often called "social injustice".  Does opposition to socialism and communism now count as a mortal sin?  Should we really try to all starve together?


F***ing stupid.

34 The alliance of convenience between classical liberalism (=liberty, democracy, capitalism, etc.) and the Church was fine while it lasted.  Both had serious problems with Socialism and fought side-by-side against it.  Now that Socialism isn't as big a threat, the aliance is weakening.

Which is a shame, because they would be a perfect combination to take on islamism.

35

So, essentially, the Catholic Church didn't say anything new.  Even the goofy bishop wasn't claiming to say anything new, and no new pronouncements of any official or even unofficial sort actually even occurred. 

But, nevermind that.  Let's launch into another round of "here's another great example of why I'm not religious/Catholic/Christian/active/whatever, and why it's all those backwards, hypocritical, sanctimonious, socialist organized religion bastards' fault."

OK, I'm in.  These are always fun, and a wonderful way to assuage what little conscience I still have.

And, with Huckabee out of the race, we were long past due.

36 True story.  During a break in class in seventh grade (Catholic School), I chanced upon a book on the window ledge that listed every mortal sin and every venial sin.  I discovered for the first time that masturbation was a mortal sin.  Calculating the odds that my death would occur sometime between confession on any given Saturday afternoon and my next bout of masturbation (later that same afternoon), I realized I had about a one in a thousand shot of ever getting into heaven.  Screw that, I figured.  I became an agnostic right then and there, and never looked back.

37 Hey is this HotAir?  No, there's not 100+ comments of Catholic/Protestant flamewar.  heh

38

Amazing.  Just fucking amazing.  If this were a report about the AGW cult, or a Marine throwing a dog off a roof or a new "atrocity" in Iraq, this gang of morons would be parsing it seven ways to hell and back dissecting the bias and trying to come to a reasonable judgement as to whether there was anything truthful to the story.  But here's some half-assed story about "new sins," and you people swallow it faster than Jenna Jameson.  I just love this Catholic bashing, especially from a few of you who haven't got the faintest fucking idea what real Church teaching is.

But what the hell - like notropis says, bash away.  Assholes.

39 That can be arranged, brak.

40 Wow, it didn't take long for the Catholic bashing to start. Check your sources, Malor. This was debunked YESTERDAY. Seriously.
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=57130

Maybe next time something like this "breaks", you'll have the sense to actually check the Vatican's website and find out whether it's an actual statement by the Pope or some bishop or cardinal running off at the mouth.

AoS readers of all people should know that the Brit media shouldn't be trusted to report honestly on ANYTHING, let alone religion. And yet you're all too happy to hop on the "CATHLICK CHURCH IS TEH EVIL" bandwagon. I expect this kind of thing from the raging leftist blogs, but not from you.

41 And for all who are claiming that "the Pope is richer than GOD" - do some homework and see how many billions of dollars in charity have been dispensed by the Catholic Church. Admission to the Vatican Museums is free. Would you rather the Pope sold every single work of art owned by the Church to private collectors never to be seen again?

I don't deny that there are some corrupt-as-hell bishops and cardinals in the Church. It's been that way from the start - even Peter denied Jesus three times. But the Pope, whether or not you agree with him, is a man of integrity and one of the last people left who has the balls to speak out against Islamism.

42

Just like the mass media (who hate the Catholic church more than anything else on earth), you have gotten it totally freaking wrong.  I can't believe people would buy into the rantings of some lazy, sensationalistic reporter.

The "deadly" sins are not the same as mortal sins.  Deadly sins are those which we need to guard against.  Lust and gluttony, for instance, are not mortal sins in themselves....  But over time, little feelings of lust or gluttony can flower into deeply damaging moral pathologies.  We all feel pride, for instance.  But if we live in this state of pride, and do not struggle to question it, resist it, and repent from it...  it can consume our entire soul.

I think that Church teachings on genetic modification and environmental stewardship should not be mistaken for some smug lefty position of self-satisfaction.  It means that we need to monitor our human ambitions and check them against the laws of God.

Genetic engineering, for instance, cannot proceed without limit.  There is some good that can come from it (in the same way that feelings of desire can find their proper expression in marriage and can produce life).  But genetic engineering as an end in itself is dangerous.  Should we create human animal hybrids, just because we can?  Should we accept eugenics, just because it is something we can do?  Or do we have to check these scientific acts of pride against the true purpose of our being, which is to love and serve the God that made us.

People should try to educate themselves before they go on a Fred Phelps mongo-rampage against the Catholic Church.  And simply regurgitating knee-jerk lefty liberal media talking points is not the same thing as "educating" yourself. 

43

 

 

Gregor Mendel, who's considered the father of modern genetics, was an Augustinian priest.

So it must be the engineering part that's the sin. Could that be why so many people have told me to go to hell?

 

44

"But what the hell - like notropis says, bash away.  Assholes."

I don't think it's "bashing" to criticize the bishop for his statement.  I respect and appreciate the Catholic Church, and view what the bishop has done to be a stumbling block to those that don't know what "real Catholic teaching" is, and now, won't bother to find out.  It's a shame.  Pointing that out isn't bashing the Catholic Church. 

45 I'm shocked, SHOCKED that a catholic bishop made a few comments that were totally misrepresented by British mass media.

And I'm utterly stunned, nay, absolutely floored that an American "catholic" ate it right up and said "fuck off" to the church without RingTFA.

Oh wait, no I'm not.  That was all deeply cynical sarcasm.

46 Is inheiriting a huge fortune a worse sin then being a self-made millionaire?

47 My father-confessor always told me to stick to the catechism, and pay as little attention as possible to political opinions of bishops.

48

Heaven Less Opulent Than Vatican, Reports Disappointed Pope

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30972

 

 

 

49

Unethical genital manipulation? ...gulp.

Oh, well, doesn't affect me, - I had the slate wiped clean last Sunday.

50 #42 What oops said, and said beautifully.

51

Angler - nobody's going to say a bishop can't be criticised.  I live in the Archdiocese of Boston, and believe me, I've said things about our bishops that would make your hair curl.

When I bitch about "bashing," I'm talking about posts like gekkobear, whose snarky rant about "Vespucci and Galileo," makes it plainly obvious he / she hasn't got the faintest clue what the Church's position towards Galileo actually was.

Anybody familiar with the RCC will tell you that the Roman Curia has tons of left-leaning, America-hating clowns who are constantly in a power struggle to hijack the Vatican.  They managed to steamroller Paul VI, and probably would have JP1, if he'd lived.  JP2 had to deal with them, and so does Benedict.  Until Benedict comes out and puts his John Hancock behind this list, it's merely another attention-whore in red robes piggybacking on the current lefty shibboleths (think Rowan Williams).

But my earlier point stands - it's fascinating to see how quickly the "never trust anything the MSM tells you" slogan gets tossed over the side when something comes along that panders to our prejudices.

52 Wow.  From reading the coments here I'd say that PapaRatza needs better PR men.  Perhaps take a page from the Clinton's and establish a "war room" of sorts to respond when some bishop makes a fool of themselves or the media YET AGAIN misreports what Church actually teaches.  Sheesh people, most of you have sucked this drivel up faster than a sponge.  There is much to criticize the hierarchy for without making shite up.

53

When I bitch about "bashing," I'm talking about posts like gekkobear, whose snarky rant about "Vespucci and Galileo," makes it plainly obvious he / she hasn't got the faintest clue what the Church's position towards Galileo actually was.

You mean the Church didn't burn 'em at the stake like this poster implied?!? 

(yeah I know, picking up a history text IS a lot of work for morons...)

54 Do I smell a new script for Saw V ?  Se7en II ?

55 In for the witch burning!

56

I am a Hindu, and I haven't signed over the title papers to my soul to the Pope. So I am going to hell regardless

They're sending him to a different part from us, right guys? Some kinda brown people hell?

Cause, yknow, terrified of the brown people.

 

57 From An Engineer: "So it must be the engineering part that's the sin".

If it is then Mendel's still screwed, since he basically "invented" hybridization; which itself is a form of genetic engineering.

58

Oops' post #42,

Awesome. Thank you.

59

Several here have already covered it the main points. The babbles from Gekkobear, however, still remain to annoy me:

"polluting,
Does CO2 count as pollution?  If so breathing is now a mortal sin, and should be avoided at the cost of your life.  Which, last I checked, it will."

What's your next guess? OBVIOUSLY an organization like the RCC is not going to ban fucking BREATHING. So what DID the cardinal mean? Judging from the text of the statement, he was probably thinking more along the lines of dumping toxic waste or burning brown coal. Ever hear of Occam's Razor?

"genetic engineering,
Well this makes sense.  The Catholic religion has a very good track record of being involved in Science and directing scientific interests properly.  Like that whole "world is round" nonsense from Vespucci and Galileo.  They needed killing."

Spoken like someone who hasn't cracked open a history book since high school. Gallileo wasn't killed. He wasn't even tortured. He was made to recant his specific doctrine regarding the nature of proof. The Church had issue with Galileo not over "the world is round" (which had been proven by Magellan 100 years previously and was not even at issue), nor entirely over Heliocentrism (referring to the earth going around the sun, instead of vice versa) which, contra to popular history, had not yet been proven, and was not proven definitively by Galileo's experiments. The issue was Galileo's placement of science as superior to revelation in all matters. He fell into this somewhat accidentally, and when pointed to it, recanted it without reservation. He went on to continue his work privately, and remained a Churchgoing Catholic for the rest of his days.

As to the rest of the Church and science, the fact of Gregor Mendel, and Roger Bacon, and Aquinas, and the entire Western University system ought to put paid to that notion.

In short, you haven't the first clue what you're talking about.

"being obscenely rich,
Because being a useful, productive member of society is bad.  Wealth is a measure (in many/most cases) of the useful/productive quotient.  If what you know/do/invent is truly useful, you'll get paid more; or get paid by more people.

Which I guess is bad for society.  If only nobody made anything useful, or grew food, or invented anything new; and we all lived in trees until we died of old age at 20; then we could be good Catholics; and good humans."

See, the problem here is words being used to say things they don't really mean. When we say "obscenely" we mean "very". When a Church official says "obscenely" he means "obscenely", as in "to the point of madness and evil." As in GREED. Wealth is not Greed. Success is not Greed. Only the disordered love of material things is Greed.

As to the wealth of the Church, yes, they have lots of stuff. The Pope eats well. But in a very real sense, he doesn't "own" any of it. He uses it, while he's there, for the service of the Church. And yes, yes, we all know that bad men are to be found wherever there's money. Thank you, Virginia. But does anyone really want to dispute the idea that the Church uses its wealth for the betterment of others? And is it maybe MAYBE possible that the Cardinal was suggesting that those of us who are blessed with talent and opportunity, and the wisdom to take advantage of both, should use some of their wealth for the same reason, instead of indulging in joyless consumption a la Paris Hilton? Is that so hard a teaching?

"drug dealing,
So, are Pharmacists on this hook, or off it?  How about anesthesiologists (holy crap, spell check say I got that right...)?  Does it depend on what the drugs are used for?  If I sell Valium in the street corner, and my neighbor sells the same valium in a pharmacy, am I on the hook for a mortal sin while he's perfectly fine?  Basically, is this a moral sin for failing to be properly licensed?"

Oh, come on. Are you so dense that you can't see what is under discussion here? We're not talking about pharmacists vending medicine, we're talking about selling smack/ex/coke to rock bands/ravers/yuppies, etc. As to the valium question, I think the issue would be determined by your motives. Are you dispensing valium to help someone who needs it, or are you padding your wallet with an addict's milk money? Sin sometimes lies in the difference.

"pedophilia
This wasn't one already?  Well, that explains some issues I suppose."

<laugh track>

Seriously? What's it going to take? All-new rules have been set up to prevent this in the future. Apologies and settlement checks have been issued. Yeah, yeah, too little, too late, if you insist on seeing it that way. Now they're making a point of underlining that this is bad, and always has been, and acknowledging that this has brought shame on the Church, and you go for the Leno joke. How's that routine on airline food coming?

"causing social injustice
Well damn.  I hope none of the founding fathers were Catholic.  Damn "Boston Tea Party" and such, definite "social injustice" in their form of Government (and all others).  Actually, "social inequality" is often called "social injustice".  Does opposition to socialism and communism now count as a mortal sin?  Should we really try to all starve together?"

You couldn't be less aware of what they're actually saying if you stuffed your ears with cotton and sang the Marseillaise while they said it. The Church has been on record condemning socialism and communism since before it even crossed the American radar screen. Google "Rerum Novarum" sometime, just for laughs.

You'll find a document that expresses sympathy for the oft-abused workers of the 19th century and that damns socialism as madness. The Social Doctrine of the Church, when all is said and done, is about not treating those below you like dog-shit, to be scraped off your shoes and grumbled about when you notice it's there. It's about being human, and humane, to the poor. Unless you're an Objectivist (in which case boy, do I have some sex jokes for you!), there is nothing hear to be frightened of.

"F***ing stupid."

Make your own joke here.

60 This kind of stuff is obnoxious, the original 7 deadly sins were basically Biblical in concept, and were broad ideas (murder, theft) rather than specific acts in those categories (abortion, polluting). I hate this kind of socially conscious thing in the church because it almost without exception means the church is following, not leading, that it is the society and culture informing and defining the church rather than the other way around. And every time Christianity has stumbled or had problems, it's been because of that very reason.

61

Whaddya know !

Another American catholic gets his panties in a wad reading someting in a tabloid stating "new" Church teaching instead of reading what the Church actually teaches .

Either get a better resource or stick to politics.

oops and Christopher ...well said.

62 They lost me at "Child molestation? (shrug)"

63

This kind of stuff is obnoxious, the original 7 deadly sins were basically Biblical in concept, and were broad ideas (murder, theft) rather than specific acts in those categories (abortion, polluting).

Of the Seven Deadly Sins, not a one was either murder or theft. 

Greed, Gluttony, Lust, Pride, Wrath, Envy, Sloth

How can the Morons be so informed, witty, and inquisitive on complex political issues, but once the Catholic Church comes up, half of us start marching to the MSM's beat?  Sure, question authority; but when it comes down to answering the questions, you're still obligated to have an honest answer. 

64

>>Greed, Gluttony, Lust, Pride, Wrath, Envy, Sloth

Basic ingredients of the AoS LifeStyle™. Atleast Gluttony, Lust and Sloth.

 

65

Basic ingredients of the AoS LifeStyle™.

What'd I tell you?

66 Right, sorry bad examples but the categories were the broader concepts of sin, not the specific examples of how they work out. But murder is a mortal sin; it's just that the mortal sin it comes from is usually greed, wrath, or envy.

67 Andrew - thanks for so eloquently stating what I was too infuriated to point out. You said that better than I ever could.

68 Boy, the Papists really came out of the woodwork for this post.

/flame mode

69 I said it could be arranged, brak. You don't have to take matters into your own hands. :-)

70 >>They're sending him to a different part from us, right guys? Some kinda brown people hell?

>>Cause, yknow, terrified of the brown people.

 

relax, JDub. We have our special hell. We don't get 72. We get only one. But she knows the 72 positions of the Kama-Sutra. 

71

Right, sorry bad examples but the categories were the broader concepts of sin, not the specific examples of how they work out. But murder is a mortal sin; it's just that the mortal sin it comes from is usually greed, wrath, or envy.

Look, it's going to seem like I'm pouncing on you, and I don't mean to, but let's keep our terms straight.  Murder is a mortal sin, meaning a serious sin.  What is might grow from (you name greed, wrath, and evny) are not "mortal" sins; they are "Deadly" Sins.  As I understand it, a "mortal" sin is a sin outright, and carriers with it all the sinful baggage.  The Seven Deadly Sins are emotions, essentially reflexes, and are not in themselves sins, but rather the pathways to sin; they aren't sinful until they lead you to commit acts that are individually sins, and the Seven Deadly Sins are only sinful insofar as they cause you commit the act of sinning.  The Seven Deadly Sins are so called because they blind us to the evil of our actions, and lead us to take sinful actions to fulfill certain movitvations. 

So, to recap: "Mortal sin" - actions that sever your relationship with God; includes (among other things, depending on how strict you interpret) certain violations of the Ten Commandments, such as murder. 

"Deadly Sin" - emotions that can provide motivation to commit an act that constitutes a sin. 

72 Andrew the Noisy

Yep, I stuck my foot in it.  I rattled off every trite preconceived and unsupported notion of Catholic fault known to man.  I was in a hurry, so several were just wrong.  Glad I was called on it.

But even the defenders here have to acknowledge that these are some peculiar statements.

Greed doesn't equal owning wealth, rich does equal owning wealth.  Maybe he used the wrong term, but it's a difficult mistake.  Greed is entirely intent, "rich" is entirely material and has no "intent" component.  Never has, never will.  Desiring the possessions and wealth of others is bad.  Finding a goldmine in your back 40, not exactly a moral action either way... but now you're possibly "obscenely rich".  Not enough, picture a bigger mineral deposit.  "Obscenely" is admittedly a vague measure, but whatever level you've set it at, someone has likely hit it without excessive greed.

Polluting, genetic engineering.  these are actions, not matters of degree.  When condemning an action, isn't the action wrong?  Or is a little polluting ok?  How about a minor amount of genetic engineering?  If only 0 pollution is ok, we're going to have to give back civilization, so I have to assume some limited manner is accepted.  Are all of these list "matters of degree"?  that would help clarify his statement immensely.

Lets consider a little bit of abortion?  Hmm, that ones different, isn't it?  A "little pedophilia"? (yes, I got this far without seeing that gadawful pun coming... I said I was slow today)

So some of these are clear decisive "yes/no" and some are matters of degree.  And you're the one who gets to decide which is which, so that you can come up with appropriate answers... nice.

"As to the valium question, I think the issue would be determined by your motives. Are you dispensing valium to help someone who needs it, or are you padding your wallet with an addict's milk money? Sin sometimes lies in the difference."

Makes me glad I don't design vending machines.  Some consumers are fulfilling their gluttony, others are simply satisfying their hunger.  And the motives of others will decide the tarnish on your soul?  I didn't realize I had to derive and determine the motives of everyone I did business with...  Heck, running a restaurant must be a moral nightmare.  And you ever tried denying customers based on their expected or presumed motive in purchasing your product?

"As to the rest of the Church and science, the fact of Gregor Mendel, and Roger Bacon, and Aquinas, and the entire Western University system ought to put paid to that notion."

So, the Church is blameless in all matters regarding any dissent with Science?  Or do you simply believe that the good outweighs the bad, so no bad can be mentioned?  How many bad events does the church have left before it can be criticized in this arena?

"Seriously? What's it going to take? All-new rules have been set up to prevent this in the future. " 

Right, because there were no rules in the past to prevent this?  Or do you simply believe this time will be different?  Did you believe that McCain would close the border with this round of Amnesty, or did you recall past failures and suspect he'd fail?  But the Church gets a free pass, all sins forgiven, and this time they mean it.

"The Church has been on record condemning socialism and communism since before it even crossed the American radar screen."

Sorry, I was recalling WW2, where the church took a stance of non-involvement over the Nazi's killing Jews.  So the Church;'s actions during WW2 were generally individuals (not the organization) and were scattered and sometimes ill-advised.  But I'm sure they "condemned" the people they chose not to oppose.  Because condemnation is much more useful than action...

But, lets sum this up.

Now, is Catholicism, as a whole, taken entirely; a net "good" or a net "evil" on the world?  I think (from what I've seen) this is a clear answer.  It is, and has been a net good.  That doesn't shield it from criticism, protect if from its failings, or make it so deserving of respect from non-Catholics that when a Bishop says something ill advised; that wondering what he meant (even cynically, and with trite arguments) is inconceivable.  But, the general good, compared to the failings is significant.

Now, some of the recent stories I've heard (prayers for Castro's health, Global Warming concerns, and some other examples of liberal insanity) from other Christian religions in America does have me nervous.  Not to say the Catholic Church is going to simply follow along and be stupid, but they've made mistakes in the past so I'm not finding Catholicism to be infallible.

Did I make unsupported, and in a few cases baseless accusations?  Yep, I didn't feel like looking for the contentious periods between the Church and Science, and not all of the ones I recall were Catholicism; and several of the points are recorded differently by different people.  So some of that was indeed "loose shit".

Did everything this Bishop say make perfect sense and avoid making a serious confused and possibly ill-advised mess of things?  Not a chance. 

Does your defense attempt to gloss over everything in a manner nearly as inaccurate and knee-jerk as mine was?  Nearly, yes; you're better supported, but you've still got some nice generalizations, explanations that have never been made, sweeping statements of your own, and some strong institutional bias.  So you're not as "knee-jerk" as my first post, but a bit of work and I bet you can get these.

73 As I understand it, a "mortal" sin is a sin outright, and carriers with it all the sinful baggage.

Which is what I said, apparently not very well.

OK here's a quick and dirty primer on Roman Catholic Theology:

You are saved by grace being infused into you, which enables you to respond in faith. This grace is damaged by venal sins (the little stuff) and killed outright by moral sins (the big stuff). You can repair that lost grace by acts that are means of grace (penance, confession, mass, etc) and be given some of the extra grace that saints have in some cases but I'm not going into that because it gets really messy and the theology isn't real clear.

Thus, mortal (killing) sins kill off the grace in you, venal sins damage it. You get grace back by doing good deeds and serving the church.

Caveat, I'm not a Roman Catholic, but this is how I understand it from Jesuit teaching and books. I personally am a child of the Reformation.

74 Gekkobear, if you read the Haloscan comments, an article was posted that really clears up what the bishop was saying.  In fact, it renders most of the gripes in this topic abolutely moot. 

75 Wow. This is what I get for posting and then running out. Some clarifications and responses:

(1) Many have noted that this list is not an statement of doctrine from the Vatican, but rather a Vatican bishop who was giving an interview about sin and the sacrament of confession in the 21st century. CWN's article on the subject went so far as to call Archbishop Girotti, the regent of the Apostolic Penitentiary, a "second-tier Vatican official," as if to play down his position or the importance of his words.

The Apostolic Penitentiary is an important administrative arm of the Church. And an archbishop is nothing to sneer at. If you think that American priests and bishops, parishioners and deacons are not listening closely when members of the Apostolic penitentiary are speaking then you haven't been paying attention at Mass. I worked for a church for five years and watched the creeping change. I read the "reminders" from the diocese about matters of ceremony and faith.

So when another Vatican bishop starts talking about "new sins," I take notice. (And yes, those are his words.) Because I absolutely guarantee that I will be subject to a lecture on genetic engineering from a well-meaning but close-minded priest or deacon in the near future. And I'm tired of it. That's why I posted this.

(2) As noted above, the seven deadly sins are not an official part of Church doctrine. That's why I called them "informal." The article I linked clarified more, noting that there is no definitive list of deadly sins. Instead, the Church defines mortal sins as grave violations of the Ten Commandments committed with full knowledge and deliberate intent.

To some extent, it is obvious that pollution, or genetic experimentation, or social injustice can rise to the level of a mortal sin. But it seems to me that not all polluters are guilty of a grave violation, nor for that matter are all genetic researchers. The archbishop argues that modern Catholics do not understand sin, but does himself an injustice by lumping these actions which are matters of degree together with things like drug dealing and abortion which are more a binary state when it comes to sin (setting aside abortions of medical necessity).

And his comment about "obscene wealth" is particularly troubling to me because I have known people who are terribly concerned that their souls are in danger because they married hard-working people who ended up making bundles. In fact, I've seen people dissolve in tears when Matthew 19:24 or like passages in the other gospels come up at Mass. Their major fear is that they don't know how much wealth is too much wealth, and they don't know if their giving to charity and tithing is going to make a difference. Their fears are not put to rest by the good archbishop.

(3) Also, one commenter referred to L’Osservatore Romano as "the Enquirer of the Vatican." That is inaccurate. CWN recognized as the "semi-official" paper of the Vatican and it publishes on the Vatican's own webpage.

76 (4) On equating "my Church" with the bishops in Rome I made a glaring error. Yes, the Church is much more than just the bishops. In fact, it is much more. But those are the folks who have the authority and responsibility to shepherd the Church on Earth. For that reason, when they speak, I listen.

(5) Finally, this is probably the most divisive problem with posting anything relating to religion. There are instant victims:

"If this were a report about the AGW cult, or a Marine throwing a dog off a roof or a new "atrocity" in Iraq, this gang of morons would be parsing it seven ways to hell and back dissecting the bias and trying to come to a reasonable judgement as to whether there was anything truthful to the story.  But here's some half-assed story about "new sins," and you people swallow it faster than Jenna Jameson.  I just love this Catholic bashing, especially from a few of you who haven't got the faintest fucking idea what real Church teaching is."

I'm sorry folks, but it is not out of bounds to discuss the pronouncements of bishops and how they affect everyday parishioners. If you think the Church is being treated unfairly or if you want to rise to the occasion and actually educate others about the teachings of the Church, this is your chance to shine (and I appreciate those commenters who are actually doing some educating). Or you could just throw a hissy-fit about people not using "reasonable judgment" and then accuse others of not knowing what they're talking about.

You make the call.

77

Frankly I don't know what all you papists are blabbering about.

This is what happens when you entrust your eternal salvation to some old italian geezer who claims to be God's Chosen Representative. Now you have to do everything he says. Don't say no one warned you.

Maybe if you stopped worshipping a bunch of make believe saints and/or just dropped the act and went full on polytheist it would help clarify things. Things like, you know, I don't know...maybe put 'molesting children' on the next list? OK, maybe not a deadly sin...but can we at least agree it's a sin? Progress? No?

_{Oh, now this should make the conversation interesting.}

78 Actually, I'm not engaged in Catholic bashing, I'm engaged in bashing the organized Christian church in all denominations for being so stupidly willing to swallow all that the culture has to offer instead of leading. I'm sick of it, but it's been going on for centuries.

79

I'm very much engaged in catholic bashing.

Because they very much deserve it!

_{Also, because I'm bored. And they deserve it...but mostly because I'm bored. OK, entirely because I'm bored.}

80 I want to go to Tushar's hell.

81

Frankly I don't know what all you papists are blabbering about.

This is what happens when you entrust your eternal salvation to some old italian geezer who claims to be God's Chosen Representative. Now you have to do everything he says. Don't say no one warned you.

Maybe if you stopped worshipping a bunch of make believe saints and/or just dropped the act and went full on polytheist it would help clarify things. Things like, you know, I don't know...maybe put 'molesting children' on the next list? OK, maybe not a deadly sin...but can we at least agree it's a sin? Progress? No?

_{Oh, now this should make the conversation interesting.}

_{There is nothing interesting about being provacative for entertainment. It is simply childish. You will likely get the well thought and or outraged responses that you hoped for but   you deserve only derision.}

_{Malor, you also have shown a level of immaturity in your post. "Fuck you "? Well thought sir. Yes , this Bishop comes off as a trendy twit but whenever leaders of  your faith speak your disagreement should give you pause. You (and I) could be right, but if you can't examine the opposing stance in a Bishop you lack intellectual depth.}

82 Damn puppet.

83 Hey, Entropy, God's chosen representative is not Italian.

84 "The new deadly sins include ... being obscenely rich, ... pedophilia and causing social injustice."

Mr Pot?  There's a Mr Kettle at the door.

85

On the wealth thingy.....

Remember, the bible says (1 Timothy 6:10) "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after......"

Not "having money" nor busting your ass and ending up with money, but the "love of money".

Very, very different. Anyone that is so humble as to worry about whether they have too much money or are giving enough away is probably going to be OK.

86 Hey, Entropy, God's chosen representative is not Italian.

No, he wasn't Italian, he was a Jew from Nazareth.  All those old guys in Rome were politicians chosen by man.

/Entropy started it

87

Hey, Entropy, God's chosen representative is not Italian.

A german is just an italian who hasn't discovered how gay he is yet.

88

Moses: "Fuck. There he goes again ... get me rewrite!" The new commandments:

Thou mayest partake of the thc-laden weed, but thou shalt not sell it even to thy closest bro, dudeth.

Thou mayest gather amongst you all the mammon you desire, up toist, but not including the last bit of mammon that makest you obscenely rich, as opposed to just 'Al Gore filthy rich.'

Thou mayest fondle the lovliest amongst you on the dayest of their eighteenth year, except in Arkansas, wherest thou may commence with the fondling on the dayest of the fourteenth year so long as her parents provideth thee with written consent.

Thou may sow hatred amongst the peoples freely, up to the point whereth it could be arguedth that social injustice has resulteth.

So sayeth the Pope.

89 Why post this crap again?

Laying a whoopin' on a church-hating doofus itself isn't a sin if its done in self-defense.

But making me do it twice....you're stoking my wrath....  And as I said in post 42, repetitive indulgence in a "deadly" sin can hurt a person's soul.  Are you trying to corrupt me?

Now just say you were wrong and get yourself to confession.
 

90 Heya Gabe, The Anchoress has something to say, and you are quoted: http://theanchoressonline.com/2008/03/11/press-prostituteswhatever/

91

OK here's a quick and dirty primer on Roman Catholic Theology:

You are saved by grace being infused into you, which enables you to respond in faith. This grace is damaged by venal sins (the little stuff) and killed outright by moral sins (the big stuff). You can repair that lost grace by acts that are means of grace (penance, confession, mass, etc)and be given some of the extra grace that saints have in some cases but I'm not going into that because it gets really messy and the theology isn't real clear.

Thus, mortal (killing) sins kill off the grace in you, venal sins damage it. You get grace back by doing good deeds and serving the church.

Good try, Christopher, and some things right, but some wrong. I AM a Catholic so here's the theology (in case anyone at AOSHQ is ya know actually interested):

You can't repair for lost grace.  Only God can do that.  You get grace back the same way other believers do: asking for forgiveness and a restoring of grace (God's eternal life in you, which makes you able to be in Heaven).  Catholics believe that Jesus provided us with sacraments to be conduits of His grace.  But both Catholics and other Christians agree: HE does it, not us.

Why the distinction?  Cause too many other Christians think because Catholics think (I say know) there are sacraments, that humans invented them.  Not so.  Scripture speaks about every one of the sacraments, the Bible just doesn't use that word, just as the words "Trinity" and "Incarnation" don't appear in the Bible, yet the teachings are there.

92 It's pretty tiresome to see the same people who never believe a thing in the press fall so easily into believing this crap.

It is typical media distortion, just before Easter, as usual.

http://deacbench.blogspot.com/2008/03/eighth-deadly-sin-bad-reporting.html

If you want to leave the church there are plenty of ways to defend that choice, but don't let it be because you've bought into a headline and story that have nothing to do with reality.

93

Well, for what it's worth, the concept of trinity was indeed also invented by the catholic church hundreds of years later.

 I'm not asking you to behave (hah!). Just be aware that religious topics can really turn into fights.

God knows I'm trying but it's just not working.

What do I have to do to get you people riled up? Shoot your pope?

94

These days I've been labeling myself an Excellent Adventurist.  This is because in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, they said "be excellent to each other".  It's the best advice from a comedy film I think you can get.  It's the tenet of the golden rule, the 8-fold path, and is sort of the basic underpinning of religions across the world.  And it's just good advice. 

I'll one day send my kids--if I ever have them--to a parochial school (probably a Lutheran one, as they have cool guitar songs in their service and tasty port wine). I understand and appreciate very much not just the religion I was raised in, Roman Catholicism)...I think I 'get' them. Because they basically impart you with good suggestions for and provide good situational examples of decent societal living.  But I just don't believe in all the fantastical stuff... 

95 Alear, thanks for pointing me to the Anchoress' link. I don't read her nearly enough, but I enjoy her posts every time I find myself over there.

One point she makes (and quotes from a CBS consultant) is that there is nothing new about the "new deadly sins" and that they are just one more list of sins from a churchman. Of course, the deadly sins themselves (as popularized by Dante) were "just one more list of sins" from a churchman. And look how they took over the Christian mind.

Dismissing the words of Archbishop Girotti as "one person’s interpretation of moral failings that are as old as time itself" is a big mistake.

96

I'm a member of the Church of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Fonz.

97 So when genetic engineers go to hell do they get a box of nematodes and broken microscope?

98

This is what happens when you entrust your eternal salvation to some old italian geezer who claims to be God's Chosen Representative. Now you have to do everything he says. Don't say no one warned you.

Maybe if you stopped worshipping a bunch of make believe saints and/or just dropped the act and went full on polytheist it would help clarify things.

I'm a Catholic.  My salvation is entrusted to a Jewish carpenter, as is every Catholic's.  

Re: God's chosen representatives, guess you never read Acts 15, where some apostles claimed to be God's chosen representatives (um, they were) and everyone had to do what they said.  Guess you never read Hebrews 13:17  "Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account..." Guess you never read Jesus' words in John 20:22-23 and Matthew 16:19 where He gave His apostles authority over even the forgiveness of sins of others.

And as for saints, guess you never read Hebrews 12, where we're told that a great cloud of witnesses, including humans in Heaven (aka saints) watch what w're doing.  Guess you never read Revelation, where we're told that in Heaven exists an altar by which saints and angels carry "the prayers of the holy ones" to God.

Maybe you were joking in your post, and that's all right.  But am not gonna let Catholic teaching go misrepresented 'cause somebody felt like making fun.    

If anyone's interested, more Catholic teaching at: www.catholic.com

 

 

99

Well, for what it's worth, the concept of trinity was indeed also invented by the catholic church hundreds of years later.

Guess you never read Genesis, where God describes Himself repeatedly as "WE" in the very first chapters, nor Matthew 28: "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit"

Don't make keep quotin' the Bible cause I won't stop!

100 I'm interested, because I'm an Episcopalian who has to go to Catholic services now because the Episcopalian hierarchy has been taken over by (literal) pagans.

The Catholic Church has over a millennium of history behind the Episcopalian, and was founded by one of Jesus's foremost disciples rather than by a late-mediaeval royal wife-beater. I was hoping the Catholic Church would have stronger foundations... But what happens if the Catholics fall prey to twits too? Where am I supposed to go?

101

What do I have to do to get you people riled up? Shoot your pope?

It's been tried.  The Pope forgave the Muslim who did it. Guess you don't read the papers either.  (*trying to get Entropy's goat now*)

102 Runs away frightened at the idea of a moron "getting"him.

103

Well, for what it's worth, the concept of trinity was indeed also invented by the catholic church hundreds of years later.

Actually it wasn't made official doctrine until the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. What it meant to be a christian was pretty unsettled up to that point - some groups thought that you had to become jewish before could be a christian, others believed that not only was Jesus a separate entity from God, but the old testament God and the new testament God were different as well. The new testament didn't exist at that time - all they had were a lot of letters and documents which sometimes contradicted each other. The ones that fit in with established doctrine were eventually put together in what we now know as the new testament.

104 Does that bishop have anything to say about The Vagina Monologues coming soon to the University of Notre Dame? I would be interested in hearing what he has to say on THAT.

105

In the Catholic religion, who is next in the hierarchy right under the pope?

Jesus.

(We would also have accepted Mary as a correct answer.)

106

Hey, no one you know, want to point me where it says those things in the original Aramaic, Latin, and Hebrew?

I know this is news to you, but it wasn't actually written in English. Not even King James english.

True Fact about Catholicism: Catholics have an excellent sense of humor.

Last week I was making fun of magic underpants. Get over it. Or come get some. Either way, fun for me.

For being a good sport, I reveal to you: the one and only Divine Truth, free of charge.

107

Guess you never read Genesis, where God describes Himself repeatedly as "WE" in the very first chapters, nor Matthew 28: "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit"

Nothing in that even says all 3 of them are the same entity.

If I say "we're going to the store" it does not mean myself and my two compadres are actually all the same person.

108  brak, I'm going to let that pass as a joke, but a poor one. Fortunately, I doubt that commenters are checking in here to find instructions into Catholic theology.

109

Well, for what it's worth, the concept of trinity was indeed also invented by the catholic church hundreds of years later.

Actually it wasn't made official doctrine until the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

Thats. What. I. Just. Said.

OK, let's look at it this way:

A Priest and a Rabbi are on a boat fishing. The priest asks the rabbi candidly, 'tell me rabbi, have you ever tried bacon?'

The rabbi admits, yes, once when he was young and foolish, he did try bacon, and it was pretty good.

The rabbi asks the priest 'Now tell me, have you ever tried sex?'

The priest admits, yes, once when he was young and foolish, he did try having sex.

The rabbi nods and then quietly asks: "It's a hell of a lot better then bacon, isn't it?"

110 If you can be sinfully rich can you also be sinfully delicious?

111 Maetenloch: Except that there was already a proto-Church, an organisation of bishops and apologists who had banded together over a common canon of scripture and basic doctrine, as early as Irenaeus in the late second century.

That canon had a core of the Pauline Epistles, the four Gospels, 1 John and 1 Peter. There was an additional "penumbra" of texts like James, Jude, Hebrews, 2-3 John, the Didache, and 1 Clement. Eventually the proto-orthodox chose to accept most of the penumbra, relegating later stuff like 1 Clement to "apostolic fathers" on the level of Justin Martyr and Ignatius of Syria. They also included Revelations and 2 Peter, eventually, although not without heavy controversy.

Gnostic stuff like The Gospel of Philip, or even the very early Gospel of Thomas, never got any sort of foothold in the proto-Church. An outlier like Clement of Alexandria might quote from GThom to make a point, but no-one in the Church would ever cite it for doctrine (it isn't "god-breathed", to use the Pastoral Epistles' term).

One argument the Church hasn't made as forcefully as I'd like is that this "proto-Church" - and we should just call it the Church - wrote the Bible. Certainly the Church in Rome wrote 1 Clement and directed it to the Church in Corinth. 1 Clement was only one generation away from Hebrews, in turn one generation from Paul. There is a literary succession from Paul to Hebrews to 1 Clement to Ignatius, all within the context of a Church - the Church - hierarchy. Whether you go on to call this an "apostolic" succession is a matter of faith, but the fact remains that the Church wrote the Bible and then set its limits, and not vice versa...

112 No, poor would have been if I said "Touchdown Jesus."

113 Another amusing fact is that the Gnostics had to follow along with the early Church. Matthew had a Trinitarian formula - Thomas had to have one too. Luke (in Acts) said that Jesus ascended into heaven and didn't hang around to give post-resurrection appearances after that - so much for the "Secret Book of James", now they had to posit earlier revelations like "The Gospel of the Saviour". Mark and John said Peter was a hothead - "Mary" had to make it part of the story. And the Valentinians made a point of claiming descent from Paul and the Johannine literature, although they concocted a wild cosmology about "the thirteen aeons" and "pleroma" and other such New Age weirdness out of it.

Irenaeus likened the Gnostic to a man who came across a mosaic of a king - and rearranged it into the like of a mongrel dog, claiming that this is what they meant to draw all along.

114

I think the whole AoS audience needs some clarification from the Church on some of these new sins that Mr. Spitzer "may" have committed with his "unsafe" sexual preferences.

Is it a sin, if you get a "poopy-dick"?

If he's doing this with an adult female, then that rules out pedophilia for sure...but does the "poopy-dick" fall under the new pollution ruling?  As long as the poop eventually gets back to the toilet or down the shower drain, then he's in the clear.  Right?

115 Thou shalt not enter the kingdom of anus without a profilactic.

116

Hey, no one you know, want to point me where it says those things in the original Aramaic, Latin, and Hebrew?

I know this is news to you, but it wasn't actually written in English. Not even King James english.

Hate to break it to you, but that'd be the original Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew.  The original languages were translated into Latin (the common language of the time ) by (dunh dunnnhhh DUNNNHHH!) St. Jerome. 

True Fact about Catholicism: Catholics have an excellent sense of humor.

That may be the very first thing you've said that I totally agree with.

 

Which is why my response to:

Nothing in that even says all 3 of them are the same entity

is: Guess you haven't read the rest of the Bible. 

117

Oh, it says numerous things that can only be logically rectified by presuming all 3 of them to be the same person.

But it never actually says they are.

118 relax, JDub. We have our special hell. We don't get 72. We get only one. But she knows the 72 positions of the Kama-Sutra. 

O RLY?

And is there some, ah, religious text along these lines that I could pick up?

And can i convert, please? Is there a kiosk or something? Mail-order?

Or chewing broken glass?

Or can I at least sneak in behind you at the hell-queue, maybe?

119

JDub, Ha!

The weird thing about Hinduism is that we are not big on converting. Hinduism believes that if you are a good human being, you shall reach heaven. It does not matter what religion you practice. More widely read Hindu preachers sometimes quote from the Bible. We are not 'Us v/s them' kind of people.

120

We are not 'Us v/s them' kind of people.

That's precisely the kind of attitude that got you conquered by the British.

121

>>That's precisely the kind of attitude that got you conquered by the British.

Entropy, we got conquered because of other reasons. Religious tolerance did not have much to do with it. But modern Indians are very nationalistic and patriotic people.

122

Oh, it says numerous things that can only be logically rectified by presuming all 3 of them to be the same person.

But it never actually says they are.

Of course it doesn't, because they're not the same person.  They're the same God.  Three persons, one God.  Like, get the formulation of the impenetrable mystery of the triune Godhead right, dude!

123 Re the Holy Trinity - Jesus does tell us to "baptise in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" and he does say "the father and I are one," and he decries sins "against the holy spirit" but hell, why should that make any difference?

124

But does anyone really want to dispute the idea that the Church uses its wealth for the betterment of others?

Like spending millions on hush money for covering up all the sexual abuse of altar boys . . .

125 Yes, but are the three persons of the same substance or similar substance? :^)

126 The weird thing about Hinduism is that we are not big on converting. Hinduism believes that if you are a good human being, you shall reach heaven. It does not matter what religion you practice. More widely read Hindu preachers sometimes quote from the Bible. We are not 'Us v/s them' kind of people.

There are certainly worse religions. (In fact, snarkily, I might point out that I was raised Methodist, and as near as I can tell, this is what we believed as well. I say this because, honestly, I'm not sure what Methodism is about, other than loving Jesus, or someone at least, and your fellow man. Mostly. They were never clear on that. And we never got to sing the fun hymns, about trampling unbelievers. Closest we got was Battle Hymn of the Republic. Which, I suppose, again, worse religions exist. Methodists, as far as i can tell, never burned crosses. Because, you know, it would ruin the lawn. And what would the Johnsons say? They were very definite on rooting for the Gators, though that might be regional.)

On a somewhat awkward note, Tushar, I'm afraid sometimes it seems i pick on you... when in fact your cheerfulness and wit are a welcome addition to this blog when others are about to burn each other at the stake. L'chaim!

127 You can't repair for lost grace. Only God can do that. You get grace back the same way other believers do: asking for forgiveness and a restoring of grace (God's eternal life in you, which makes you able to be in Heaven). Catholics believe that Jesus provided us with sacraments to be conduits of His grace. But both Catholics and other Christians agree: HE does it, not us.

That's a theological distinction I recognize is argued, but it ends up the same: you do this, He does that.

128

Yes, but are the three persons of the same substance or similar substance? :^)

Theology riff -  hahahahaha.  Nice. 

 

 

129 Like spending millions on hush money for covering up all the sexual abuse of altar boys . . .

After a while, particularly when you can see that the church has done a shameful public penance and taken steps to prevent such a scandal from ever happening again, the continual pounding upon that issue seems less like righteous justification and more like a simple excuse to keep hating.  Kind of along the lines of someone ignoring all the good the US Armed Forces have done throughout history, because of Abu Ghraib. 

130 Patm, you said that much more politely than I would have. Bless you.

131 Tushar!  I eat beef, lots of it!  Will THAT get me into Hindu hell?  Or do I have to do bad stuff?  Not that I haven't done lots of bad stuff, but if it gets me into the wrong hell, what's been the point of it all, y'know? 

132

Patm at March 11, 2008 10:42 PM (N0hv7)

Patm, hope you don't mind if I steal  borrow quote you on that.  Well put.

133

After a while, particularly when you can see that the church has done a shameful public penance and taken steps to prevent such a scandal from ever happening again.

How many decades (or maybe centuries) had the abuse been covered up? And do you really think that steps have been taken to prevent a future scandal? I don't.

134 New Deadly Sin? Objectifying women.

Not a sin anymore? diddling little boys!

Sincerly,

Your NEW new Vatican....

135 Gabriel,

You're a complete idiot for posting this sort of thing and then walking away like it wouldn't start a rant against Catholicism.  And you're a complete asshole for telling the Church to fuck off.  Screw you.  If you had as much brains as you pretend to have, you'd have thought better of such an impertinent statement, whether you're a cafeteria Catholic or not.  As it is, I saw this post initially and thought it was more of your pseudo-intellectualism at work that didn't merit a response.  I'm glad you were appropriately taken to task in these comments.  Your defense is also pathetic, because not once have you apologized to for telling the Church to "fuck off."  I don't give a crap what arguments you can bring to the table about this guy or that office.  When push comes to shove, if all you can say is "fuck off," then the Church will gladly leave you to your little private Hell. 

Go ahead and start your own fucking Church, asshole.

136 Hindu hell... would that be an eternity of working a help desk, answering constant calls from twits, answering to completely ungrateful demons who nitpick on "tone" because they can't nitpick on substance?

137

And do you really think that steps have been taken to prevent a future scandal? I don't.

I beg to differ.  I work for a Catholic church (surprise) and have for several  years.  Our diocese, and many, many  dioceses around the country, have detailed programs, rules and regulations about how employees and volunteers are to conduct themselves around "children and vulnerable adults" and penalties if even the APPEARANCE of anything is going on (translation: we WILL fire you if you are found to have ever been alone with a child, even if there are no accusations of wrongdoing).  If wrongdoing is alleged, turnover to civil authorities is guaranteed; no priests (or anyone else accused) are "sent along" anywhere.  There is a whole dept. in our diocese just for dealing with this issue, on which there is a "zero-tolerance" policy.  Our employee handbook: the first 25% of it - and it's a big handbook - is devoted to expected conduct from everyone re: chaste behavior and non-exploitation of vulnerable persons.  Makes very clear that immediate termination and prosecution is in your future if you do not comply.  Every single employee, even housekeepers who never even SEE a child, have to undergo a sexual abuse background check, a check of the sex offender registries (my state's and FBI's) as well as the standard criminal background check.  Two sexual abuse workshops are required for EVERYONE, even one-hour-per-week musicians who would never get the opportunity to be alone with children. Volunteers have their own program to prevent abuse.  There is a hotline and two HR employees at the diocese who handle any complaints that come in.  

Are your eyes glazing over yet?  I have to enforce these requirements every day, being a business manager.  My point is: Yes.  Steps have been taken. All around the country, and in other countries too.

138 NGThe SEVEN DEADLY SINS ACCORDING TO HIGH PREIST AL GORE,   1.GLOBAL WARMING  2.IDUSTRIALIZATION   2.ATOMATION  4.CAPITALISM       5.TRADITIOAL AMERICAN FAMILY   6.POLUTION      7.GOP

139

Wow. I picked the right day to be on the road all day.

Gabe, as a fellow (and proud) Catholic, I'm used to dealing with media idiots who play gotcha politics with anyone even remotely affiliated with the Church. You've been roasted enough for jumping on this- I would submit to you that this bishop does not speak for us.

Many know as well as I, particularly if you read the WSJ, that there were a number of priests in line for the papacy that were avowed sociallists and US-haters.

So, I would put to the Lutherans in the group (and adding that my father-in-law is an ELCA pastor), do the edicts of the ELCA speak for you? We've already seen the response from an Episcopalian, and the Methodist Church has swooped towards leftism as well (at least in the Northeast).

Some of you want to hate on the Catholic Church- go right ahead. But I swear, you sound like the idiots who make up all the conspiracy theories about Masons. We've certainly got our warts in Catholicism- I know very few self-respecting Catholics who would deny that. I would merely invite many of you to get informed about the Church- you might be surprised by what you find.

Lastly, Tushar- the Jesuits who taught me based it on a fundamental foundation that there are many paths to God, with this reasoning...

What about those who have never heard the word of God from a believer? If their hearts are pure, are they condemned?

The Trinity that I bow before would not countenance such things- ours is not a vengeful God. Particularly not in regards to a man who espouses and seems to practice all the things that I hold dear as a Catholic, a Christian, and as an American- and you, my friend, do espouse and live all these things.

I couldn't find a Hindu blessing online that I could copy and paste, so allow me an Irish one- to you, tushar, and to all our friends on this blog- even those who wish ill upon our faiths...

"A world of wishes at your command, God and his angels close at hand, friends and family, their love impart, and Irish blessings in your heart!"

tmi3rd

140

As another practicing Catholic, I generally ignore any pronouncements of Church Doctrine or teachings that doesn't come from Benny himself.  Not that the Pontiff  is above saying something asinine.  This sort of thing doesn't surprise me since much of the church heirarchy is infested with committed socialists who spout on and on about social justice and now even environmental justice.  Just more left-wing talking points to be ignored.

I love the Church with its long sense of history and tradition. The politics of the current church leadership, not so much.  While intemperate, I have at times wanted to say very much the same thing as Gabe's "fuck you."  But I usually just stop going to church and find another use for my weekly $15 contribution such as buying a case of Val-U-Rite Vodka and a $10 back alley blowjob. 

For all you Catholic bashers out there, have at it.  After 2000+ years, we've got pretty thick skins.  But before you start tarring the entire Church because of the actions of a few, you might want to take a gander at your some of your own manwhoring philanderers, crackpots, and con men within your own pure Christian (or any other) faith. 

Hey, anyone got $15 they could loan me? 

141 I am relieved to hear that this seems to be something of a tempest in a teapot because most of my objections to the Catholics stem from bureaucratic issues rather than religious and I hate to see any sect of the Church get a black eye. Still, to hear that this kind of thinking exists within the inner circles of the Vatican is disturbing. So long as no Papal Bulls are forthcoming, I won't let it worry me overmuch, but it is certainly something to keep an eye on.

BTW Tushar, are you guys taking applications?

142 >>Hindu hell... would that be an eternity of working a help desk...

Hey! Not be stereotyping while you are typing.
*And the slushee is free if you buy more than $10.

143 "How many decades (or maybe centuries) had the abuse been covered up?"

I suspect not many.  I'm not Catholic (well, I was raised one but have been agnostic since I was 15) and even I think it's pretty obvious from historical references that the Catholic Church was deliberately infiltrated by communists under Lenin's orders to destroy it from within precisely by doing crap like abusing children.  He actually explicitly said that infiltration and delegitimizing them from within was the only way to take their greatest enemy, the Church, down.

I think you've gotta be pretty naive if you don't think such is possible.  Oh, and before someone says it, I think something stops being a "conspiracy theory" the moment they have complete control of nations with 50% of the world's population.  Just sayin'.  Oh, and incidentally, I think it partly it explains why so many high ups keep spouting leftist nonsense as well.

Most of the infiltration happened in the last generation, the ones that are currently in their 50's and 60's.  They're mostly a bunch of leftist wankers, particularly among the Jesuits (which used to be an awesome tradition within the Church).  The good news?  This current generation seems to have their heads on straight a lot more than the previous generation, at least from what I've heard.

Qwinn

144

Hey, Gabe! Next time maybe you should use a more accurate source for your information about what the Church is up to than some religious-illiterate, atheist MSM hack from a country of virulent anti-Catholics working from a shitty translation from a language the shit-for-brains MSM journalist cannot read/translate for himself. It'll avoid having to read the unholy alliance of religious-illiterate atheists and Chick-comic-reading, Biblical-literalist "Einsteins" that you get commenting at HotAir, and (probably) above. And save you from getting pissed off at your own Church without just cause.

http://tinyurl.com/2zgpdd

145

When the sex-scandal is raised I could weep for my church if it wouldn't cause a certain talking head to beat me like a retiring quarter-back.

It is, however, relevant to this subject in a tangential way.

The truth is that much of the scandal is the result of the American Catholic Hierarchy buying in to the zeitgeist. A decision was made to allow, for the first time, those with homosexual tendencies to become priests. They, of course, took the same vows of chastity as heterosexuals. The unspoken truth of the scandal (except in jokes)  is that the great majority of victims were boys. Thus we had a homosexual pedophilia scandal, not a "pedophilia' scandal.

Many of the church's intellectuals bought deeply into modern psychiatry which claimed to be able to cure deviants. The deviant priests were "treated" by psychiatrists who proclaimed many of them to be cured. They were then sent back out as priests.

So the American wing of the Catholic Church disregarded its knowledge of sin, temptation and justice and opted for "therapy". Today, they still won't tie the word homosexual with the scandal out of fear of giving offense.

How is this related? Some "Liberal" church fathers are today buying into a different zeitgeist which says that pollution is the new gravest sin and that every leftist cause is sacred.

Benedict is no patsy for the left. I look forward to a correction.

146 Many of the church's intellectuals bought deeply into modern psychiatry which claimed to be able to cure deviants.

So did the criminal justice system up into the 80s and 90s, i.e., treatment in lieu of prison. That said, the Church should have known better and kicked them out for their crimes.

Today, they still won't tie the word homosexual with the scandal out of fear of giving offense.

Allow me to offend: The Lavender Mafia took over the seminaries in the 1970s and fueled this mess.

147

I'm sorry folks, but it is not out of bounds to discuss the pronouncements of bishops and how they affect everyday parishioners

Yeah, but that's not what you did.

You took the pronouncement of one bishop as garbled by a nitwit "journalist" and told the whole Church to fuck off.

You really should learn how to do a mea culpa, cuz you suck at it.

And I say that as a person who has a very low opinion of the Catholic Church, being a lapsed Catholic myself.

At least I told them to fuck off for stuff that's official doctrine and for what they really are.

148

Gekkobear

Responses offered in the spirit of original posts. So, in a much less enraged manner, I take a look at your second:

"Greed doesn't equal owning wealth, rich does equal owning wealth.  Maybe he used the wrong term, but it's a difficult mistake.  Greed is entirely intent, "rich" is entirely material and has no "intent" component.  Never has, never will.  Desiring the possessions and wealth of others is bad.  Finding a goldmine in your back 40, not exactly a moral action either way... but now you're possibly "obscenely rich".  Not enough, picture a bigger mineral deposit.  "Obscenely" is admittedly a vague measure, but whatever level you've set it at, someone has likely hit it without excessive greed."

Again, it all depends on what you do with your wealth. To become wealthy is a morally neutral act, provided it was done by moral means. To use your wealth for no other purpose than to make more wealth crosses the line into greed. This doesn't mean you <i>can't</i> keep growing your wealth, but that you <i>ought</i> to make a conscious effort to give to others, by whatever means seem most prudent.

Your point about the cardinal using the wrong word is, however, well taken. If I spoke Italian, I would read the original. But I don't think he was really trying to promulgate new doctrine.

"Polluting, genetic engineering.  these are actions, not matters of degree.  When condemning an action, isn't the action wrong?  Or is a little polluting ok?  How about a minor amount of genetic engineering?  If only 0 pollution is ok, we're going to have to give back civilization, so I have to assume some limited manner is accepted.  Are all of these list "matters of degree"?  that would help clarify his statement immensely."

The text of the cardinal's statement refers to things like cloning and stem cells. Which basically means the "Gospel of Life". I doubt very much the Vatican has a problem with engineering a new strain of wheat that could help poor countries eat better. But they HATE things that diminish the dignity of the human person. So I would put the rule as "engineering food, okay, engineering people, not okay."

Pollution is tougher, for precisely the reasons you've mentioned, and again, I think the matter has more to do with How We Deal With Pollution. Do we make efforts to minimize it, to clean up after ourselves? Are we Good Stewards of the Earth God has given us?

Some pollution is inevitable. Some is not.

"Makes me glad I don't design vending machines.  Some consumers are fulfilling their gluttony, others are simply satisfying their hunger.  And the motives of others will decide the tarnish on your soul?  I didn't realize I had to derive and determine the motives of everyone I did business with...  Heck, running a restaurant must be a moral nightmare.  And you ever tried denying customers based on their expected or presumed motive in purchasing your product?"

You have it backwards. It is <i>your</i> motives that matter. If you say to yourself, "I am making available something that people need, which is good in itself," you're not responsible for someone else's abuse of it. If you say to yourself, "Here is a patch of weaklings I can prey on," you're not in the same boat at all.

"Right, because there were no rules in the past to prevent this?  Or do you simply believe this time will be different?  Did you believe that McCain would close the border with this round of Amnesty, or did you recall past failures and suspect he'd fail?  But the Church gets a free pass, all sins forgiven, and this time they mean it."

You can suspect the failure all you want. You can't pretend that nothing has been done. And nowhere did I say that "free passes" should be given out, quite the contrary. What I am objecting to is the instantaneous, uninformed, utterly witless display of faux-urbane pedo-gags that blossom like ragweed the minute the Church's teaching on any sexual matter is mentioned. You (here I mean not just Gekko but the whole crowd of Take-My-Altar-Boy-Please yuksters) may think that your Rabelaisian brilliance is an absolute riot; I keep waiting for the turd to pop out of your mouth. The man said pedophila is wrong and that it had brought shame onto the Church, what do you want from him?

"Sorry, I was recalling WW2, where the church took a stance of non-involvement over the Nazi's killing Jews.  So the Church;'s actions during WW2 were generally individuals (not the organization) and were scattered and sometimes ill-advised.  But I'm sure they "condemned" the people they chose not to oppose.  Because condemnation is much more useful than action..."

It is tedious to have to address this, because it is utterly disengenuous. The Church's so-called non-involvement was an official veil; behind-the-scenes, Pius XII did the very best he could to save as many as possible. That isn't me talking, that's every significant Jewish leader showering him with encomiums when he died in 1958. It's The Chief Rabbi of Rome being so inspired by Pius' deeds that he converted to Catholicism. It's Albert farking Einstein praising the Churcd as the only organization that "protested the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty."

And again, what exactly did you want? The Crusades not-withstanding, the Church is not an army (and if you should study the Crusades, you'll find how rarely they were directed by ecclesiastical authority, how often by the ambition of princes). It "resisted" the only way it could; by condemning, though not in such a way as to bring destruction, and acting quietly to save as much as possible. You may think it nothing for an unarmed man to hide 3,000 fugitives in his summer house, or to hide 60,000 more in your country, or to secretly convince a dictator (Horthy of Hungary) not to ship 800,000 more from their homeland to the death camps. I don't.

"Now, is Catholicism, as a whole, taken entirely; a net "good" or a net "evil" on the world?  I think (from what I've seen) this is a clear answer.  It is, and has been a net good.  That doesn't shield it from criticism, protect if from its failings, or make it so deserving of respect from non-Catholics that when a Bishop says something ill advised; that wondering what he meant (even cynically, and with trite arguments) is inconceivable.  But, the general good, compared to the failings is significant."

With this I agree, generally, with one caveat: when you hear the words "Vatican says X" it behooves one to double-check what exactly was said, and by whom, and under what context. You know, the same treatment to which we subject everything else that belches from the MSM. Then, when you know all the facts, conscience compels you condemn the dumb.

I could nitpick the last bit of your comment, but I'm not going to. The teacup has been blown enough.

149

Mack-

That said, the Church should have known better and kicked them out for their crimes.

Agreed.

Today, they still won't tie the word homosexual with the scandal out of fear of giving offense.

Allow me to offend: The Lavender Mafia took over the seminaries in the 1970s and fueled this mess.

I am not offended.

150 Fuck the Pope and the Vatican.  Isnt the Vatican insanely rich? Isn't it the Catholic Priest who commit crimes against children?  This world would be better with out the Vatican, Popes, and priest.

151 The media completely manufactured this story.  The Vatican DID NOT issue any new deadly sins.  It was the opinion of a lone Bishop who was being interviewed by a newspaper.

http://needsofthemany.blogono.com/2008/03/12/msm-fabricated-vatican-new-deadly-sins-story/

152

WACK. Do catholics even want people in heaven anymore ? D: If these sins are really added.. well, i guess i'll see you all in hell.

153

^_ok,

^{_{so when a priest molests a child then its the public eye's fault?}}

^{_{but for normal people we will rot in hell??}}

 

154

oh and one more point. thousansds of catholics dont even go to confessions! we should confess to god ourselves not let some bastard who prolly molests children tell me if i am going to hell or not.

what the f**k? like for real? this is the dumbest thing since oprah made a school for the africans!

155 Anyone one who would tell his "church" to F off.....is a waste of breath.

156 iezgrfpml sjzpyktn pvlcfqsw gxuod ezhsa skaw enqcgrizw

157 Useful site. Thank you!!!

158 Useful site. Thanks:-)

159 Useful site. Thanks!!

160 Useful site. Thank you.

161 Useful site. Thanks.

162 Useful site. Thanks.

163 Useful site. Thank you.

164 Useful site. Thank you:-)

165 Useful site. Thanks!!

166 Useful site. Thanks!!!

167 Useful site. Thanks!

168 Useful site. Thank you:-)

169 Useful site. Thanks!!!

170 Useful site. Thank you:-)

171 Useful site. Thank you!

172 Useful site. Thank you:-)

173 Useful site. Thank you!

174 Useful site. Thank you!!

175 Useful site. Thanks!

176 Useful site. Thanks.

177 tsap ahxcs uptnrdz kgxatzo

178 srfpt fdgjx vykb

179 mgthw

180 uhamvxq

181 spvalh nwtoa covr scjrk

182 tlphe hugpsd

183 lcwv voad nevb

184 qowadky

185 pauibvx

186 xwhyt viytdpx

187 eioyua gyat klpuwyj bqked

188 aqnm

189 ogwtzd ogqkbz

190 kesxraw kazvyrl ahmtev wpckz

191 mqnue qpwva ypqg pszxke

192 qysdk

193 iwpsmbv vprys sgfvza dypmgjn

194 kyhjl unfc okwgrc

195 qoun feolxq

196 nvle wynr mkst

197 jqetmgf

198 pnrxoau pztwu nzvmis

199 uargpm crfslid emqgit

200 ckwjxop rgds pewr

201 ydqhcsk zrhel qorn

202 mvhxgbl bgwshyr lzkbuog

203 qzmrdj xuicad

204 rlfqgv ferdlgh ifyucrs

205 buct kjrnzf xwyhtfz dqbtzv

206 akvl wcbhazl

207 pekn nxhlvzt qotijx rawvfxo

208 ldafsm btuo cyqtni

209 jkglcux xueporf fcxjm

210 zxrvmnb fcrn ivlzjr atyr

211 azueh pykvfdh

212 nprbql

213 xijclq rsln

214 xefqs phusvec

215 nqrh doxqu vckauo bgwykjx

216 nolw yugmn aymw ahyvnto

217 cjzapwg zpsiytr

218 fkxm jmcfyts

219 zbog radpjx

220 yoqxtg xysi oxhukw

221 tsye

222 etkjhzn ekjs voqkw abuo

223 ylpv

224 tmbwo rztyg klotwnr hfirsnq

225 bcgume

226 wfxbm crzo glzsji yqfacx

227 ovleyzm hazv bcrwjk imadl

228 rinexb mehwbt drpje

229 pcvixfu njvwu

230 suewzch pgwb

231 rfkjnto ndig

232 bhemjz xbty

233 cwjpa

234 mdctoj

235 yfkqxj ympjx srazofn

236 fueqb wspnr aeoz wepqh

237 djaichs

238 ctoiaxm viqpgor sodyigb

239 dvqkem

240 nyvoe

241 hqtvksw hvyrsdn

242 fujl

243 cvtrfb

244 kbhu

245 smiljeu

246 phwy vgot bnjdzip nvrjwlq

247 mpgk

248 hlcaz sqve kbzau

249 jcnhray kfdnihm pywv ksrtvu

250 tvamhq qyebo svfwd csli

251 kabflo

252 frglbk

253 nkxrdz wctv uitgosm wbgz

254 fubh

255 jzsqaoy

256 sxjadzu ojumbz aqeymhn anefzxu

257 ejlwbhg xhketf eamqpxr

258 dknpcvi

259 eowlni befa

260 xehcd rshaci hesx

261 otwxvif lzvc xdraqkz

262 iforjxk lkiac hwamiuc mybhs

263 dhqtc tvcaed nefih

264 zlumv ihlfsay

265 hijp rqswdv uinwl

266 scdmo afpsw hmctslz scire

267 tujka pgvolm

268 npajsf

269 anlzfo zlbpy

270 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Posted by: 角钢货架 at May 19, 2008 10:36 PM (j9bBT)

Posted by: websters dictionary at May 20, 2008 01:57 AM (Capg+)

Posted by: in midget porn at May 20, 2008 04:00 AM (G4hwa)

Posted by: older ladies at May 20, 2008 06:38 AM (XOzKq)

Posted by: nudist at May 20, 2008 06:45 AM (mHxIU)

Posted by: lady sonia at May 20, 2008 07:17 AM (MJO3a)

Posted by: ortho tricyclen at May 20, 2008 07:42 AM (Yxi2t)

Posted by: hydrochloride metformin at May 20, 2008 08:28 AM (GeBMJ)

Posted by: hairstyles for women at May 20, 2008 09:22 AM (Ih2Uc)

Posted by: short love poems at May 20, 2008 10:15 AM (OuIX3)

Posted by: corset girdle at May 20, 2008 11:15 AM (OJWKZ)

Posted by: coach at May 20, 2008 11:25 AM (Capg+)

Posted by: naruto hentai at May 20, 2008 12:22 PM (408Is)

Posted by: family fued at May 20, 2008 12:36 PM (A2UY1)

Posted by: platform beds at May 20, 2008 01:06 PM (kBbOo)

Posted by: party invitation at May 20, 2008 02:52 PM (MVcRE)

Posted by: coach at May 20, 2008 03:23 PM (36/Ag)

Posted by: loft-bedde at May 20, 2008 03:44 PM (GeBMJ)

Posted by: dog-shel at May 20, 2008 03:59 PM (osnQZ)

Posted by: table at May 20, 2008 05:00 PM (MVcRE)

Posted by: seed at May 20, 2008 07:30 PM (VIHjg)

Posted by: Ilya blog 850 at May 21, 2008 01:38 AM (0dGyl)

Posted by: Ferrari blogs 270 at May 21, 2008 03:18 AM (8/oHA)

Posted by: Lady Sonia 765 at May 21, 2008 03:50 AM (ytNrt)

Posted by: Alex blog 556 at May 21, 2008 04:32 AM (8/oHA)

Posted by: Olegs Blogs 647 at May 21, 2008 05:33 AM (8/oHA)

Posted by: Internet marketing 904 at May 21, 2008 05:39 AM (OJWKZ)

Posted by: Sandra 27 at May 21, 2008 06:53 AM (kBbOo)

Posted by: sauna kit at May 21, 2008 07:57 AM (OuIX3)

Posted by: electric furnace at May 21, 2008 07:57 AM (OuIX3)

Posted by: adult swim at May 21, 2008 09:28 AM (TaVds)

Posted by: swimming pool heaters at May 21, 2008 10:16 AM (GSI0Z)

Posted by: sauna heater at May 21, 2008 10:52 AM (OuIX3)

Posted by: hot water heater at May 21, 2008 11:32 AM (osnQZ)

Posted by: flower tattoos at May 21, 2008 12:42 PM (OuIX3)

Posted by: above ground swimming pool at May 21, 2008 01:16 PM (GMXOm)

Posted by: air conditioner filter at May 21, 2008 02:29 PM (AQHai)

Posted by: shih tzu puppies for sale at May 21, 2008 05:44 PM (wNBdF)

Posted by: yorkie poo at May 21, 2008 06:00 PM (g6FDm)

Posted by: maltese puppies at May 21, 2008 07:21 PM (OJWKZ)

Posted by: pets puppies at May 21, 2008 08:06 PM (98svb)

Posted by: boat trader at May 21, 2008 09:26 PM (8/oHA)

Posted by: discount bed at May 22, 2008 02:20 AM (8/oHA)

Posted by: bed risers at May 22, 2008 03:07 AM (oYFxG)

Posted by: kfc coupons at May 22, 2008 09:19 AM (8/oHA)

Posted by: free printable coupons at May 22, 2008 10:57 AM (8/oHA)

Posted by: fathers day gifts at May 22, 2008 11:26 AM (osnQZ)

Posted by: disney cartoon at May 23, 2008 12:07 AM (cb/48)

Posted by: google translator at May 23, 2008 01:33 AM (bNE+a)

Posted by: big pussy at May 23, 2008 01:38 AM (OJWKZ)

Posted by: born shoes at May 23, 2008 04:09 AM (0IIhr)

Posted by: german foods at May 23, 2008 04:56 AM (SBRFb)

Posted by: metric conversion table at May 23, 2008 05:48 AM (osnQZ)

Posted by: print t shirts at May 23, 2008 02:50 PM (JUsGC)

Posted by: white shirts at May 23, 2008 03:38 PM (ZGjo2)

Posted by: embroidered shirts at May 24, 2008 05:51 AM (OJWKZ)

Posted by: rv for sale at May 24, 2008 07:14 AM (9lSkQ)

Posted by: cat breeder at May 25, 2008 02:58 AM (N0TQk)

Posted by: free tattoo designs at May 25, 2008 03:39 AM (OuIX3)

Posted by: patio cushion at May 25, 2008 05:13 AM (OJWKZ)

Posted by: mattress protector at May 25, 2008 06:51 AM (xSKvd)

Posted by: party invitation at May 25, 2008 06:52 AM (Ua0AS)

Posted by: roses delivery at May 25, 2008 09:07 AM (IFscl)

Posted by: huggies coupons at May 25, 2008 09:38 AM (ECo6w)

Posted by: bobs discount furniture at May 25, 2008 10:17 AM (TcKGW)

Posted by: used boat values at May 26, 2008 07:57 AM (tas29)

Posted by: windows live messenger at May 26, 2008 08:03 AM (tas29)

Posted by: exotic wood at May 26, 2008 10:07 AM (q3NnN)

Posted by: thomasville furniture at May 26, 2008 10:29 AM (Tnt+e)

Posted by: trailers for sale at May 27, 2008 01:57 AM (UZZa5)

Posted by: used truck sales at May 27, 2008 02:59 AM (OJWKZ)

Posted by: free birthday cards at May 27, 2008 03:47 AM (4js72)

Posted by: patio cushion at May 27, 2008 04:17 AM (4js72)

Posted by: party supplies at May 27, 2008 06:38 AM (OJWKZ)

Posted by: hair weaves at May 27, 2008 07:13 AM (4q3x/)

Posted by: aquarium screensaver at May 28, 2008 01:47 AM (wY0SN)

Posted by: aquarium supply at May 28, 2008 02:19 AM (V0xDu)

Posted by: electric furnace at May 28, 2008 02:48 AM (Zh9N5)

Posted by: patio cushion at May 28, 2008 03:02 AM (NWeXC)

Posted by: adult swim at May 28, 2008 03:57 AM (R6Spn)

Posted by: flower tattoos at May 28, 2008 06:02 AM (8S+PQ)

Posted by: sauna belt at May 28, 2008 06:28 AM (SvMNo)

Posted by: furnace filters at May 28, 2008 07:04 AM (i98n9)

Posted by: toto toilet at May 28, 2008 07:43 AM (OJWKZ)

Posted by: toto toilet at May 28, 2008 07:49 AM (Zh9N5)

Posted by: karaoke music downloads at May 28, 2008 09:27 AM (8+Bfp)

Posted by: brother fax machine at May 28, 2008 09:45 AM (BBdrM)

Posted by: peek boo bras at May 28, 2008 10:56 AM (V0xDu)

Posted by: yorkie puppies for sale at May 28, 2008 11:12 AM (V0xDu)

Posted by: maltese puppies at May 28, 2008 11:54 AM (izO3t)

Posted by: teacup maltese at May 28, 2008 12:17 PM (AJxnx)

Posted by: golden retriever puppies at May 28, 2008 01:02 PM (+j914)

Posted by: free puppies at May 28, 2008 01:04 PM (0IIhr)

Posted by: tattoos picture at May 28, 2008 01:16 PM (5XBs5)

Posted by: boat trader at May 28, 2008 01:24 PM (Zh9N5)

Posted by: boats for sale at May 28, 2008 02:09 PM (OJWKZ)

Posted by: estate agents at May 28, 2008 02:24 PM (V0xDu)

Posted by: shih tzu puppies for sale at May 30, 2008 09:36 AM (rRcZ7)

Posted by: g3 boats at May 30, 2008 09:58 AM (V0xDu)

Posted by: behr concrete stain at May 30, 2008 11:58 AM (vz6Em)

Posted by: cmos battery at May 30, 2008 12:19 PM (OhhYb)

Posted by: used car dealers at May 30, 2008 01:38 PM (aQl/y)

Posted by: experian credit report at May 30, 2008 01:51 PM (psr3+)

Posted by: patio furniture at May 30, 2008 02:09 PM (IzRVk)

Posted by: northwest air at May 30, 2008 02:39 PM (cWX8T)

Posted by: teacup maltese at May 30, 2008 03:30 PM (BYhSr)

Posted by: payless shoe at May 30, 2008 05:01 PM (psr3+)

Posted by: screen tent at May 30, 2008 05:16 PM (cgEUt)

Posted by: short love poems at May 30, 2008 06:03 PM (/eIv2)

Posted by: kid poems at May 30, 2008 06:59 PM (jIaCF)

Posted by: memorial poems at May 30, 2008 08:06 PM (L11+A)

Posted by: patio design at May 30, 2008 08:25 PM (VJekM)

Posted by: rv for sale at May 30, 2008 09:13 PM (VJekM)

Posted by: outdoor canopy at May 30, 2008 09:16 PM (5XBs5)

Posted by: free birthday cards at May 30, 2008 09:53 PM (xPTKr)

Posted by: printable birthday cards at May 30, 2008 10:12 PM (Q61Gy)

Posted by: pitbull puppies at May 30, 2008 10:27 PM (ddmGt)

Posted by: pitbull puppies at May 30, 2008 10:30 PM (Me+Mg)

Posted by: cmos battery at June 09, 2008 12:54 AM (ZxjvS)

Posted by: restaurant supplies at June 09, 2008 01:23 AM (mZA76)

Posted by: birthday party invitations at June 09, 2008 02:09 AM (jtriw)

Posted by: birthday gift ideas at June 09, 2008 02:17 AM (PvRqI)

Posted by: birthday gift ideas at June 09, 2008 02:31 AM (wRSYs)

Posted by: anniversary gift ideas at June 09, 2008 03:36 AM (JtBZg)

Posted by: poems about death at June 09, 2008 03:47 AM (JtBZg)

Posted by: yorkie poo at June 09, 2008 08:15 AM (yDqx0)

Posted by: rv for sale at June 09, 2008 09:00 AM (J0Xzx)

Posted by: classic cars for sale at June 09, 2008 09:03 AM (YYT2x)

Posted by: emo at June 09, 2008 11:21 AM (+vpBE)

Posted by: family fued at June 09, 2008 01:33 PM (muJBN)

Posted by: table linen at June 09, 2008 02:01 PM (zYqnH)

Posted by: old town canoe at June 09, 2008 04:08 PM (tas29)

Posted by: safety glasses at June 10, 2008 02:59 AM (Xkpyn)

Posted by: restaurant supplies at June 10, 2008 03:50 AM (rY5VU)

Posted by: yorkie puppies for sale at June 10, 2008 04:10 AM (8kZEO)

Posted by: emo at June 10, 2008 06:30 AM (Qjqf9)

Posted by: gba cheats at June 10, 2008 06:47 AM (r0KTD)

Posted by: karaoke music downloads at June 10, 2008 07:22 AM (rY5VU)

Posted by: professional liability insurance at June 11, 2008 12:24 AM (eyNXm)

Posted by: emo at June 11, 2008 01:42 AM (gEt8A)

Posted by: snap fitness at June 11, 2008 09:14 AM (J6Iaf)

Posted by: lifetime fitness at June 11, 2008 09:54 AM (scLSs)

Posted by: top rap songs at June 11, 2008 10:02 AM (twlPI)

Posted by: teaching degrees at June 11, 2008 10:36 AM (3fCkn)

Posted by: aetna health insurance at June 11, 2008 10:50 AM (3fCkn)

Posted by: nursing degrees at June 11, 2008 10:55 AM (Cx3u4)

Posted by: free lesson plans at June 11, 2008 11:35 AM (HLKdv)

Posted by: fitness singles at June 11, 2008 11:45 AM (b+OYR)

Posted by: junior dresses at June 12, 2008 12:16 AM (Fm0Eg)

Posted by: white flower farm at June 12, 2008 01:54 AM (0IIhr)

Posted by: polo shirts at June 12, 2008 02:05 AM (RERMV)

Posted by: tennis shoes at June 12, 2008 02:55 AM (K/67Q)

Posted by: rocks and minerals at June 12, 2008 03:31 AM (EEEjq)

Posted by: wholesale diamond at June 12, 2008 05:08 AM (uu0fp)

Posted by: electronic funds transfer at June 12, 2008 05:27 AM (dVmwE)

Posted by: heat transfers at June 12, 2008 06:13 AM (ccL7d)

Posted by: table linen at June 12, 2008 07:29 AM (ihUvX)

Posted by: patio design at June 13, 2008 05:40 AM (3Igrn)

Posted by: hot water heater at June 13, 2008 06:26 AM (mgJIM)

Posted by: free tattoo designs at June 13, 2008 07:41 AM (5XBs5)

Posted by: restaurant supplies at June 14, 2008 09:52 AM (wCl7U)

Posted by: used car dealers at June 14, 2008 09:52 AM (RERMV)

Posted by: pitbull puppies at June 14, 2008 12:35 PM (5XBs5)

Posted by: patio furniture at June 16, 2008 02:21 AM (Ks4qJ)

Posted by: shih tzu puppies for sale at June 16, 2008 03:56 AM (r+ui8)

Posted by: poems about mothers at June 16, 2008 04:50 AM (xj7/1)

Posted by: printable birthday cards at June 16, 2008 05:48 AM (cD0NY)

Posted by: cytotec at June 16, 2008 07:26 AM (z6uiM)

Posted by: wired 96 5 at June 16, 2008 04:24 PM (UKLqe)

Posted by: money market rates at June 16, 2008 05:04 PM (NFH51)

Posted by: atv lift kits at June 16, 2008 05:05 PM (pjyHa)

Posted by: new jersey mortgage at June 16, 2008 06:32 PM (YaK0F)

Posted by: school loans at June 16, 2008 07:12 PM (H78ZH)

Posted by: patio furniture at June 16, 2008 09:05 PM (GfouJ)

Posted by: cmos battery at June 17, 2008 12:43 AM (8r/Ip)

Posted by: free birthday cards at June 17, 2008 03:05 AM (YYT2x)

Posted by: summer party invitation sample at June 17, 2008 03:45 AM (ZJ1xR)

Posted by: screened porch tents at June 17, 2008 06:11 AM (h1a1z)

Posted by: we cut printing paper to any size at June 17, 2008 06:35 AM (UGTOF)

Posted by: patio cushion at June 23, 2008 06:46 AM (GbObd)

Posted by: outdoor canopy at June 23, 2008 07:33 AM (0IIhr)

Posted by: used car dealers at June 23, 2008 09:10 AM (hZqfJ)

Posted by: yorkie poo at June 23, 2008 10:49 AM (CfDWF)

Posted by: soul food recipes at June 24, 2008 08:55 AM (4q3x/)

Posted by: cocktail dresses at June 24, 2008 09:48 AM (C2dwL)

Posted by: better business burea at June 24, 2008 10:09 AM (5XBs5)

Posted by: funny tee shirts at June 24, 2008 10:43 AM (Q+y05)

Posted by: mc sports at June 24, 2008 11:42 AM (WlA5B)

Posted by: dress up games online at June 24, 2008 12:35 PM (YYT2x)

Posted by: patio railings with trellis photo galleries at June 26, 2008 09:17 AM (UGTOF)

Posted by: camping beach mesh screen tent canopy at June 26, 2008 10:14 AM (NFaDa)

Posted by: screen tents with floors at June 26, 2008 11:56 AM (f2bop)

Posted by: martha stewart patio furniture replacement cushions at June 26, 2008 02:36 PM (h3s7w)

Posted by: thomasville furniture at June 27, 2008 01:42 AM (yI8Xr)

Posted by: family fued at June 27, 2008 02:44 AM (HTIbZ)

Posted by: memorial poems at June 27, 2008 03:13 AM (HTIbZ)

Posted by: メル友出会い at August 15, 2008 11:37 AM (URIJq)

Posted by: wow power leveling at January 16, 2009 02:42 AM (jlcze)

Posted by: wedding gowns at March 04, 2009 02:57 AM (kugHN)

Posted by: htrj at March 10, 2009 10:04 PM (DURsg)

Posted by: Wedding Dresses at August 20, 2009 10:21 PM (syU91)

Posted by: Ed Hardy at September 30, 2009 11:08 PM (73f5w)

Posted by: linksfromlondon at October 02, 2009 01:50 AM (x6SNH)

Posted by: dfsasfsaf at October 18, 2009 10:13 AM (GQ3Y4)

Posted by: ugg boots at October 26, 2009 02:33 AM (/STCO)

Posted by: ugg classic tall at October 27, 2009 08:18 AM (64hga)

Posted by: xlzhengnan at October 30, 2009 01:56 AM (Mj2H/)

Posted by: discount ugg boots at November 01, 2009 03:39 AM (MlIdd)

Posted by: ugg classic tall at November 03, 2009 09:29 PM (t3uzf)

Posted by: airforceoneshop at November 09, 2009 02:58 AM (4uuE9)

Posted by: ugg boots at November 14, 2009 07:13 AM (s7MB5)

Posted by: replica watches at November 17, 2009 05:29 AM (xpuiO)

Posted by: ugg classic tall at November 17, 2009 09:34 AM (CsraQ)

Posted by: replica watches at November 17, 2009 11:47 AM (xpuiO)

Posted by: replica watches at November 17, 2009 09:24 PM (xpuiO)

Posted by: replica watches at November 18, 2009 07:24 AM (C/zDM)

Posted by: replica watches at November 18, 2009 08:54 PM (C/zDM)

Posted by: mbtshoesbuy at November 25, 2009 02:44 AM (fd1jz)

Posted by: ugg bailey button boots at November 30, 2009 11:55 AM (uWeaI)

Posted by: swdfgvrfdhb at December 03, 2009 02:27 AM (5Ewaz)

Posted by: replica watches at December 04, 2009 09:08 AM (bsW/x)

Posted by: mbtshoesbuy at December 09, 2009 05:12 PM (B0M1x)

Posted by: wholesale jewelry at December 17, 2009 10:23 PM (1dySH)

Posted by: wholesale jewelry at December 21, 2009 04:26 AM (1dySH)

Posted by: Air max at December 23, 2009 03:58 AM (Q+V6P)

Posted by: Breguet watches at December 24, 2009 02:38 PM (QN9Ge)

Posted by: cheap Air Max at December 25, 2009 12:13 PM (ZgK+c)

Posted by: tag heuer at January 01, 2010 12:27 PM (nUnK8)

Posted by: handbags at January 04, 2010 10:08 PM (QutGb)

Posted by: rolex at January 06, 2010 02:05 PM (TspGB)

Posted by: rolex at January 10, 2010 09:03 PM (OO9Jx)

Posted by: rolex at January 14, 2010 09:48 PM (GTMOj)

Posted by: nike air max at January 20, 2010 04:54 PM (CZv6h)

Posted by: replica watches at January 21, 2010 01:24 PM (fyHwu)

Posted by: replica watches at January 23, 2010 05:36 PM (ioa0w)

Posted by: air max shoes at January 28, 2010 05:55 AM (JOSIc)

Posted by: guess watches at January 28, 2010 10:36 AM (9vkhz)

Posted by: dkny watches at January 29, 2010 09:03 AM (AcMLr)

Posted by: replica rolex at January 30, 2010 06:12 AM (h+uyA)

Posted by: replica watch at January 30, 2010 07:43 AM (AcMLr)

Posted by: citizen watches at February 01, 2010 07:41 AM (AcMLr)

Posted by: replica watch at February 02, 2010 11:35 AM (CPNio)

Posted by: wedding gowns at February 02, 2010 09:35 PM (3UQpc)

Posted by: replica rolex at February 03, 2010 11:52 AM (CPNio)

Posted by: breitling watch at February 04, 2010 11:06 AM (CPNio)

Posted by: replica watches at February 06, 2010 12:13 AM (TUJDt)

Posted by: replica watches at February 06, 2010 10:16 AM (KbTNE)

Posted by: rolex at February 06, 2010 05:25 PM (TUJDt)

Posted by: replica watches at February 07, 2010 11:45 AM (Nyedu)

Posted by: fake rolex watches at February 07, 2010 09:29 PM (+29Vi)

Posted by: replica watches at February 08, 2010 12:43 AM (TUJDt)

Posted by: rolex at February 09, 2010 07:38 AM (fa8ya)

Name: *

Email: *

URL:

Comments:

Processing 0.23, elapsed 0.2622 seconds.
15 queries taking 0.0535 seconds, 530 records returned.
Page size 368 kb.
Powered by Minx 0.7 alpha.