1 So that's where it went. For a moment there, I thought I was going nuts.

2 You made the classy move, Ace.

3

Damnit it, I commented twice and it disappeared.

I might have been the only one that tried to make an argument for actually posting it.

4

Concur. Watching the heavens light up with the responses was enough as well, and it's getting slammed all over the blogosphere.

tmi3rd

5 Had to be done, Ace.

Now this place has scruples? I'm going elsewhere... maybe try CNN for a while.

6 No pictures in this post?  Why should I bother?

7 jmflynny,

Here's most of your comment, which I was considering posting as the argument for airing it:

...

Wait a minute here.

We bloggers and commenters like to pretend to be more informed than the everyman on the street and seem to take great pride in the fact that we spend more time researching and discussing the issues, legitimate or not, than the 'civilians' outside of the blogosphere. Most of us go to work every day and deal with people who know nothing more about the candidates than what they see in thirty second ads on t.v.. If you are like me, you are sought out and queried about your understanding of the issues by your family, friends, and co-workers. Legitimate or not, I would damned sure rather see an issue hotly debated on a blog where every imagineable bogey-man possible can be thrown into the argument than to read about it in the NY Times. And, if the Clintons find any possible reward in a story such as this, they will make certain that the general public is well seeded, hoping the rumor will grown into a life of it's own. When my friends ask me about this story, I would like to tell them that it was floated on the blogs and had the living hell beaten out of it for being rank and file bullshit.

Don't think for one minute that Ace posting this story, true or untrue, will make one damned bit of difference in whether it makes it into the general psyche.

...

Ace again:  That may be true, but still there's a sleaziness I don't want to go near, and I suppose most people reading and commenting here don't want to be associated with either.

It's not even like this is a somewhat-plausible claim, or a claim  backed up by some thin amount of evidence.  It just seems like some douchebag making crap up on a blog.

(PS I don't know who Jack Wheeler is.)

I think there should be *some* standard of burden of going forward, as they say in court, some minimum threshold of reliability before it gets posted and we even spend time talking about it.

I mean, what if some blog claims Bill Clinton used to suck cock for 20 bucks a pop to feed his heroin addiction?  Is there any real benefit to hashing over this claim at all?

8 As I was typing when the original post disappeared...I think removing it was the right call.

It was pretty shabby stuff. There's lots of reasons to dislike Maverick but what he went through in Vietnam isn't one of them. Quite the opposite in fact.

Yeah, he's a fuck as a politician but I think there's a line between how I view those two parts of his life.  As a politician he's thrown himself in the arena and is fair game for his actions in that sphere of his life.

As a war hero, he deserves nothing but respect.

No, you can't make the story go away by ignoring it but you don't have to participate in its dissemination either.

9 Apparently it was good enough for Captain's Quarters, but not up to AoS standards. ?!? What is the world coming to? Black is white, up is down...

10

Good move. I was going to tell the story of McPain and me snorting a line of blow off some hooker's ass in the Phillipines during "Nam while on one of his furloughs, but who would believe me?

Besides, the NVA ran the prisons, not the Viet Cong.

11

PA, don't feel too beat up about it.

If there's any legs to this story, it will be water-cooler conversation within a week and I, for one, would rather see the story beat to hell and back on a blog with folks who tend to put more thought into their arguments than do the average voter.

When, next week, one of my co-workers comes to me and asks what I've heard about this story, I'd much rather be able to tell them that it was floated on the web, and had been hotly debated, and had had the living hell beaten out of it for being pure hogwash.

I thought that bloggers took pride in tearing to shred stories such as these. Just because it's an ugly rumor, does not mean that it will not catch on wildfire. Let's wait until that happens to debate it?

12 I was typing  this comment when the post disappeared. I hope we're allowed to at least discuss the issue in the comments.

George Bush, Sr. ran the CIA in the mid-70s.  To the extent the Clintons had access to any dirt from CIA connections, George Bush had it and this didn't come out.

According to Wheeler, the supposed "notes and reports" remained in Moscow until the Soviet Union collapsed. In late 1991 The CIA and the GRU (supposedly)   made a deal for a document swap.

I've been hearing these stories for years, too, and it always come back to the same question..."Why?"  Why would he get such preferential treatment? Just because he was the son of a high ranking officer?

Here is a long article from a The Phoenix News written in 1999, Is John McCain A War Hero?

It's a balanced article with interviews of  veterans who support McCain as well as those who do not, including one guy who's dedicated his whole life to haranguing McCain about his POW experience.

I don't get it. But I take McCain's word about what happened until any real evidence shows up to dispute it, (and I doubt there will be).

There was a discussion about McCain's POW experience at my blog not too long ago.

I agree with jmflynny...I think this is an issue that is not going away, and may very well be used against him if Hillary is the nominee.

13

Ace, I tried to regenerate my argument but, you know how it is, after losing it twice some of the fire seems to dissipate.

My final observation that went missing from my comment reposted by you was that it would be ironic if the Clintons' little trick backfired on them. I mean, there are many who visit here who are not fans of McCain, but very few of us fail to honor his service and sacrifice and, we do not like to see our real war heros kicked in the teeth. They could well unite the party against such tactics.

14 Maetenloch,

What Captain Ed did was different than the post in question here.

Ed takes it on, pulls it apart and shits on the guy who put it out there.

That's very different than saying, I don't know if it's true or not but I'll throw it out there.

Both are unpleasant but at least by destroying the guy doing it you are accomplishing something useful.

As I put in my original comment on the deleted thread...Read what Adm. James Stockdale said about McCain's time as a POW. If Adm. Stockdale says McCain served admirably, that's that as far as I am concerned.

15

We don't need to give people cancer just to prove we can cure it and we don't need to circulate B.S. rumors just to prove how full of shit they are. Good move pulling this Ace.

I don't like McCain much, but if someone comes up to me and says this nonsense I might just bust them in the mouth. I am literally shaking with anger that people, some of whom I respect would spread this nonsense.

McCain served heroically and until someone has proof otherwise, they should STFU.

 

16

Ace again:  That may be true, but still there's a sleaziness I don't want to go near, and I suppose most people reading and commenting here don't want to be associated with either.

Hey, I don't mind sleeze.

Let's face it - the story is already out there. It's BS of course, but it's going to be spread around through whispers between now and the general election. We might as well hash it out now and discredit it in the process.

Remember back in November we were all speculating about Hilary's lesbian affair with Huma. Granted that story had at least a small kernel of credibility in that someone associated the LA Times was talking about, but in the end it was still just hearsay.

17 I heard from a dude I know personally that that whole "can't raise his arms" thing is complete BS.  The dude was playing Boxing on the Wii with him with hima and  McCain was swinging those arms like drunken windmills, crazy, drunken master style,t he whole deal.  So dude screams out "busted!" and McCain, like, all of a sudden, goes back to "oh-I-can't-raise-my-arms" deal, like none saw what he was just doing, throwing these like tiny uppercuts that aren't landing for nothing.  My friend totally kicked his ass after that.  

18 Ray, how's his tennis game?

19 His serve's shit.

20

As Chief Wampum of the Noshiti Tribe would say, "Shit don't stack up".

Seriously, the information isn't anything more than another hitpiece along the same lines of "George Bush Bombed the WTC".

Colonel "Bud" Day, Medal of Honor recepient, provides first-hand knowledge of McCain.

-----

In December 1967, a prisoner was dumped in Day's cell on the outskirts of Hanoi, known as the Plantation. This prisoner's legs were atrophied and he weighed under 100 pounds. Day helped scrub his face and nurse him back from the brink of death. The fellow American was Navy Lieutenant Commander John Sidney McCain III of the Panama Canal Zone. As his health improved, McCain's rants against his captors were sometimes as ferocious as Day's. The North Vietnamese tried and failed, through torture, to get McCain to accept a release for their own propaganda purposes: The lieutenant commander was the son of Admiral John McCain Jr., the commander of all American forces in the Pacific. "Character," writes the younger McCain, quoting the 19th century evangelist Dwight Moody, "is what you are in the dark," when nobody's looking and you silently make decisions about how you will act the next day.

In early 1973, during a visit to Hanoi, North Vietnamese officials told Secretary of State Henry Kissinger that they would be willing to free McCain into his custody. Kissinger refused, aware that there were prisoners held longer than McCain, ahead of him in the line for release. McCain suffered awhile longer in confinement, then, once freed, thanked Kissinger for "preserving my honor." The two have been good friends since. McCain blurbs with gusto Bud Day's memoir. The senator writes: "I recommend this book to anyone who wants to understand the dimensions of human greatness."

-----

So unless the Hanoi Hilton was one giant orgy conspiracy, where the North Vietnamese put PoWs into fuffy white rooms in a low-security holding area with pink sparkles coming out their ass, to say that McCain took favors from the enemy is disgusting.

It's just another story to give moral ascension to our enemies and play down the war record of McCain.

21 As I just told Captain Ed, Ace, this is why you will never be the next Kos.  You keep asking, "How can this be true," not "How can we use this?"

22

Hey, where's Aaron tonight?

I'm certain he'd like to attribute our defense of McCain's service to Rush, or Sean, or Neal.

23 I read it earlier and it surely had a Ron Paul follower -esqe-ness to it and truther mixed in too.

24 This blog has been particularly hostiel towards Mccain on legitimate policy grounds.  By keeping the bullshit whisper campaign off the blog, the blog keeps its credibility where it counts.

This crap would have come across as too bloodthirsty here, because this is a place full of passionate, angry people (and I don't mean that as an insult).

25 Who is this Wheeler dude?

26 <i>I agree with jmflynny...I think this is an issue that is not going away, and may very well be used against him if Hillary is the nominee.</i>

We'll see how that shit flies after hitting the fan. I saw this crap a couple of days ago, and together with that "Juan McCain" and La Raza shit, it drove me to drop a couple a bucks in the McCain coffers. I liked Fred, gave him money too, but he wasn't going anywhere. And I don't think Romney is the second coming of Christ, or even much of a conservative. He's just dull. Good businessman, but boring. At least I know McCain can be an asshole with those who have it coming.

27 Well, damn it, if you can't depend on the AoSHQ inmates for responsible journalism, then who can you depend on? Quashing it was the right thing to do, period. I like my rumors plausible, thankyouverymuch. It's more fun to  speculate on those anyways. Hillary's crying for delegates again, but I have proof that Klingons have no tear ducts! Therefore, Hillary is probably a rare cankled albino Romulan. 

28

I posted a Bud Day reference in the now deleted thread.

The first thing I look at when I hear stories about the military is: "who's the source", followed shortly by: "who's the reporter".

I'm an AF pilot and have met Sen McCain twice. I know for a fact that he has to have his aides comb his hair. As far as arm motion, we haven't played Wii, but I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.

All AF aircrew are now trained on the EXACT scenarios he experencied. We are trained that way because men like Capt Lance P. Sijan and Col Bud Day demonstrated such magnificent heroism in a war that people back home were busy protesting.

I will never vote for McCain, but I will never stand by and let anyone denigrate his service.

As an aside--I had to go to Miami last week for AF simulator training (we contract it out to Alteon for my aircraft). Showed up at the Hilton. Place was packed. Security everywere. Turned out it was McCain's FL HQ. Was riding up to the hospitality suite when some guys in the elevator (wearing McCain gear) said, "Yeah, CNN just called it--he'll be down in 10 minutes."

Had a frosty upstairs and then asked my co-pilot if he wanted to see a campaign rally. We went down to the ballroom just in time to grab a $5 beer and watch McCain walk up with his wife and daughter (smokin' hot). Luckily we missed the speeches from the Gov and Sen Martinez.

McCain's speech was the usual stump, but if you didn't know his record you would swear he was Reagan reborn. Yep, it takes a serious disconnect to think this man has spent 20+ yrs in the Senate and still cares about shrinking Gov't. But that's what he said.

My 2 cents. I'm still pissed the campaign couldn't have provided an open bar. Romney, yeah--I get it.

McCain? For God's sake, the only reason you're wealthy is that you married a girl (2nd wife) whose daddy is the largest alcohol distribitor in the state!

 

 

 

29

I think you made the right move.  Better to err on the side of caution, now that you operate the Number F'ing One Conservative Blog.

Ya know?  Take care of that rating.  You earned it.

 

30

"I will never vote for McCain, but I will never stand by and let anyone denigrate his service."

You better stick around then. The line has been crossed too many times at AoS. Politics are open, but McCain is not a traitor or a coward etc... 

"and daughter (smokin' hot)"

QFT. McCain FTW.

31

bleh,

I've been overseas for the past year, my blog skills are weak.

What does 'QFT.McCain FTW' mean?

 

32

In reference to the above posts and I'm sure many other to follow: You can still be a war hero and remain a douchebag. I give you:

George McGovern: Read 'Wild Blue'. He kicked ass and was a great  B-24 pilot. His unit had one of the highest casualty rates of any in the war (a fault of doctrine, not airmanship). He strapped in for every mission knowing his odds sucked balls (Ploesti, for example). For that, he deserves the respect of every American.

He then spent the rest of his political life trying to make us Socialists. Respect the man, just don't vote for him.

 

 

33 I'll give you another, Smedley Butler.

34

phat,

Quoted for Truth and For the Win. It's not blog skills as much as gaming.

I always liked how Curtis Lemay is made out to be such a big hero, his quote on being tough standard "warrior knowledge", but happened to be one of the biggest racist.

Sijan's story though is pretty awesome, though he was a *spit* academy grad.

35 As Chief Wampum of the Noshiti Tribe would say, "Shit don't stack up".

How tall are you, private?

36
Oh, come on! Because of his position as a very public figure, nothing you could  say about Clinton would be libelous. And Maetenloch brings up an interesting point. If the story had involved lesbians, would you have taken it down?

37 Not quite sure, Gunnery Sergeant! But I'm told I can suck a golf ball through a garden hose.

38 I remember hearing about this Clinton/Moscow thing back in 1994 in my Economics class by my conspiracy theorist professor.  Heh, I always wondered where this rumor went and if it had any legitimacy.

39

ACE:

There's an excellent, comprehensive article written by a contributor on Free Republic.  He discusses Clinton's trip to Moscow, but it damned sure wasn't for the CIA.

Bill Clinton’s Early Activism from Fulbright to Moscow

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1884984/posts

By Fedora

Please read it.

40 Some Senators think John McCain is "clinically nuts"? Then they need to step forward and explain that diagnosis, openly.

I think most politicians are "clinically nuts" compared with normal people, but that's beside the point. It's perfectly reasonable to oppose John McCain based on his record. We don't need to delve into this troofer conspiracy crap.

41

Ace,

You had to delete the post.  You and you alone are ultimately responsible for the integrity of this blog.

Man, I cracked myself up writing that last line.

42

Or that I [ace] should arrogate to myself the decision to even try?

Puh-leaze. 

ace arrogates much to himself, whatever the word "arrogates" means. 

We, the Hobo Itenterants for Truth, simply want to pursue our hobo lifestyle in peace, have our book discussions around the barrel fires, stay warm, fed, and live day-to-day free from the Morlock-like presence of the one you call "ace".

Don't be fooled. 

43 Thanks, Ace.

44 One of the things I dislike most about McCain is his lack of integrity, witness is obvious slime job against Romney right before the FL primary. Hitting him with similar tactics doesn't help anyone. I'd rather go for a 4 year walk in the wilderness than become McCain/Huck lite

45 I won't vote for McCain, but it's certainly not for anything he did prior to his political career. He's a fucking hero for his service. As a politician...not so much

46 Unless of course, by "contacts" they mean 'hot Russian women.' Then I'm buyin' it hook, line, and sinker.

47 I totally agree that McCain's actions as a POW make him a hero of the highest order.  I just wish he didn't feel he had to keep reminding me of that.  Especially when its used to deflect away other criticism.

48 Ace,

You can still access the post if you click on a comment from the right sidebar from that post.  Like NiceDeb's comment.

49 Ace, I'm not sure you were right.

The fact is, if McCain is the nominee, the MSM will be pushing this story hard. They'll see it as payback for the "lies" of the Swift Boat vets. So, we need to expose and sterilize this story ASAP. Not because McCain is a good candidate, because he isn't; but because it's wrong for McCain the veteran slandered by media dilettantes who aren't worthy to tie his shoelaces.

50 I clicked over to the Captain and then found the Anchoress was covering this business in a manner of speaking... And I saw this gem:

There has been some really shameful demagoguery against McCain from people who ordinarily would show some respect for a man who spent 6 years in a VietCong POW camp

Some demagoguery may be shameful, but it is getting extremely irritating hearing "Hanoi Hilton" and "POW" every 30 seconds as though that had some kind of meaning for every fucking conversation about McCain.

Remember when "Conservatives" used to snark at the left for trotting out the Absolute Moral Authority card as a catch-all for criticism? Good times, good times.

51

The fact is, if McCain is the nominee, the MSM will be pushing this story hard. They'll see it as payback for the "lies" of the Swift Boat vets.

The irony of your defense of McCain here is that he also slimed the SBV as less than honorable.  I would still agree with you that it should not stop us from defending McCain against these charges with full force.

52

Kerry 'swiftboated' himself with Winter Soldier and his Gengis Khan crapola, but it's a sore subject for Baby Boomers in denial.   I saw it coming when he "reported for duty." 

McCain's Purple Heart should come with clusters or something compared to Kerry's three in a three hour tour of the rivers of Vietnam. 

53 FTW = Fuck the World. As in: I'm going to vote for McCain FTW.

54 As someone who spent over 30 years in Naval Aviation, I cannot convey how incensed I was at this libel. I had the honor to serve with one of these extraordinary men who were POWs. He was a straight shooter and a man I trust implicitly. Had any of that "story" been true, I would most likely have heard it. The men held in captivity are a tight group. Had one of them been so duplicitous as alleged in the post, the others would have ostracized him, that is not the case with Senator McCain.

As a politician, McCain is closer to Swimmer Ted than to Ronald Reagan. From what I know, he is also a prick of the highest order. It does not, IMO, diminish, one iota, from the respect I hold for him as a warrior.

Thanks for removing the post, Ace.

55

His service aside, McCain's problems are so obvious it isn't necessary to delve into the past.

That said, It still does not put to rest the idea that Clinton's camp compiles files on anyone who gets in their way.

 

 

 

56 Okay, Ace, right call.  Just watch that slippery slope over there, okay?

57 He had me at Hillary's gay lover working for Saudi intelligence. 

58

That was a good move, and kudos to Captain Ed.

This is the kind of intellectual honesty you generally don't see on the left.

59 polynikes, my point is not a defense of McCain per se: it's a defense of the truth. I have deep reservations about McCain the politician and McCain the candidate. But to see McCain the man slandered by shits like the Clintons (assuming that they lie behind this spate of rumors) enrages me. If we do not stand for the truth, unalloyed and unvarnished, then we stand for nothing.

60 I totally agree Brown Line. I didn't mean to imply anything different it it came out that way.

61 My husband went hunting a couple of weeks ago in a group with Bud Day. Day wore a McCain button all weekend. Most of the group, which were Air Force and civilian aviation types, were McCain supporters.

They seem to be more than ok with McCain's military record.

62

" Allow me one last bit of logic. If McCain had reached the 'accommodation' Wheeler says, why not just allow the NVA to send him home, like they first requested? Why stick around for five and a half years in POW camps? "--Captain Ed

This logic imploded when using McCain's claim to disprove Wheeler's claim.

According to Wheeler's "T" translator of all McCain's 1969-1973 Hoa Loa interrogations, there was no known North Vietnamese offer to send John McCain home. Whatever the "accomodation" that McCain made to his captors had nothing to do with sticking around until whenever. That never happened to "T"'s knowledge. McCain's "accomodation" is incriminating as giving information for special treatment, not honorable.  That there are those fellow POW politicians who have flourished along with McCain and correspondingly support McCain's story is to be expected in the world of political compromise for power.

That a Washington insider posts the latest word is just that.

One need not totally believe just as one need not totally reject a different story than what McCain tells about anything, particularly about himself. Senator and Mrs. McCain each have evaded criminal prosecution by federal agents whose investigations collected evidence proving guilt for a court of law that summarily evaporated for political reasons; the Senator ruining American Savings and Loans with Keating also ruining Mom&Pop small businesses and life savings and bailed out by taxpayers, and his wife stealing narcotics from the poorest and most suffering victims of charities. The McCains have behaved as criminals because they could. That he would is reason enough to vote against his "GOP" POTUS campaign. McCain has promoted amnesty for all sorts of criminal behavior.  (Vietnam aside as ancient history, relevant or not,) McCain's own legislative disdain for American citizens and our Constitutional rule of law is an open record condemning his candidacy for POTUS.

63 EJS wrote:

"Sijan's story though is pretty awesome, though he was a *spit* academy grad."

Hey, what did I ever do to you? Just joking, grads are a polarized bunch-- the vast majority are very cool, but the few that are asshats are SEVERE asshats. Not a lot of people in the middle.

I lived in Sijan Hall for all four of my years at the zoo and walked past the life-sized portrait of him in his flight gear several times a day.

You wouldn't think something as simple as a guys name on a dorm and a painting would have much of an effect, but it did. After survival school (summer after freshman year) every single time I walked past his picture I mentally reminded myself how strong I needed to be to survive. It helped me get through.

It was a constant reminder of what the daily harassment and training was really preparing me for. The training Cadet Sijan received at USAFA and Midshipman McCain got at Annapolis gave them the tools to become the men we revere today.

BTW, both graduated close to the bottom of their class. I've heard McCain was in the bottom 5, but I have no confirmation.

64 Some people will believe anything if they want to badly enough, and others will simply repeat bullshit stories knowing they're false because the ends justify the means.
Usually that happens with the Left, though.  Or conspiracy theorists.

Good for you, Ace.  If you support Romney, you don't need to go to the fringe for black helicopter shit.

Besides, this crap has been floating around among kooks for years.  Nobody with a functioning brain who's looked at it takes it for anything but conspiracy theory trash.  Those who buy this kind of crap are following the same (il)logic that troofers do--if it could happen, it did!  Just because someone can construct an idea and sees the subjects as sufficiently Evil™ enough to do whatever that idea says, doesn't make it the least bit, even partially, true.

65

That said, I guess I just don't like such a trashy rumor by a guy I never heard of before being linked here.

Not a bad move to remove it, but I wish you had used the same premise when you posted the crap by some gay tart who said he had an affair with Trent Lott. Maybe you heard of the gay tart before? Heh.

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