1

Well, I'll be ...I finally agreed with every frickin' part of a JackM post.

Eff me: I'll prob'ly be reading your "poetry" next.

 

2 The Nazis called this "Gleichschaltung" -- the "bringing into line".

3 Davis,br

There once was a pol named McClain
Who gave rightwing believers a pain
He'd huff and he'd puff
So we'd kiss off his stuff
And Clinton the fools did ordain...

4 I'm with you, JackM.

5 The Maverick damn well should have thought about where he was going to get his votes from when he was screwing the Republican base at every turn.

Like I said earlier today in a post elsewhere - McCain gets my vote slightly past never.

6 Heh. KMA, ricky boy, KMA.

7 Guys, I hear you, but I can't in good conscience do anything that would benefit Hillary. I'm praying Romney knocks him off.

tmi3rd

8 Big difference JackM:

Foreign situation in 1994 was nowhere near as big a problem as it is now. 4, no make it 8, years of President HRC gives terrorists that long to consolidate and rebuild.

And domestically we will be treated to the poisonous partisan squabbling that is a specialty of the Clinton Democrats, which means that after we finnaly stumble through another Clinton presidency, the next guy will have that much harder a time uniting Americans against the resurgent terrorist threat.

9

So JackM is saying we should eat McCain.

When's dinner at?

On a serious note, if McCain get the nomination, I'll be looking for a new political party to register to. Anyone got any good ideas/want to start one up?

10 If McCain held conservatives in contempt, he would be shouting "Bring the Troops Home!" and DEFINITELY not using the word "Islamofascism."

11

Carl in N.H.,

There's no difference between '94 and now. If you need proof, just look around at how many fellow citizens view the world as if it was September 10th.

12

If McCain held conservatives in contempt, he would be shouting...

I have not changed my position on immigration.

13

McCain/Lieberman '08 -- Because we're both despised by our own parties!

14 "So JackM is saying we should eat McCain."

Hmm...actually, EJS, I think I'm saying that McCain can eat me.

15

...well, good gawdamn: I'm still in agreement, and we're into the comments phase.

 

16
You don't have to fall in love. You just have to fall in line. Or F--k off!

There fixed it for ya.

17

Calm down.

Cripes, you're panicking like a teen-queen that's been turned down for a date.  I expected sterner stuff, not this weepy-sister act.

So...what are you actually going to do?  How are you going to let your various state and local political parties know that this is not what you want?

18 As long as we're giving advice...

Link

19 EJS-

I think you're right. Republicans have so completely departed conservatism that it no longer resembles what we voted in in '94. Fred was the only one that I thought might bring things back around, but that seems to be toast.

Of the remainder, I can only vote for McCain over the Ronulan or the Suckbot... I am very uncomfortable voting for McCain, but until the situation in the Middle East is stabilized, I have to go with folks I think will work to enhance that stability.

Like it or not (and I sure as shit don't), McCain would at least take care of the troops. That said, I will go down swinging for Giuliani or Romney first.

tmi3rd

20 "So...what are you actually going to do? How are you going to let your various state and local political parties know that this is not what you want?"

First, I'll de-register as a Republican. I didn't do it during Amnesty, but I will if McCain is the nominee.

Second, I'll vote against McCain in the primary and in the general.

Third, I'll do phone calls for whoever his main opposition in the primary happens to be.

Fourth, I'll encourage everyone I can to vote against him or to stay home.

Fifth, I'll continue to bash him on this forum as long as Ace gives me the keys to the joint.

Sixth, I'll screw your sister.

Yeah, the last was gratuitous, but it just felt right.

21 You can rationalize voting for Hillary! any way you want, but claiming it's based on your love of conservative principles is a lie, even if you're only lying to yourself.

It emotional and personal, and that's fine I guess.

I still don't think McCain will get the nomination, just like I didn't think Huckabee would get it two weeks ago the last time you guys were freaking out.

22 Hey! My sister never voted for McCain!

23 Finally someone on here says what I've been thinking for the last week or so.  I can't vote for McCain, I just can't bring myself to vote for someone who has so belittled every principle I have.  Not even Huck scares me as much as McCain.  He doesn't even deserve the name of RINO.

24 "You can rationalize voting for Hillary! any way you want, but claiming it's based on your love of conservative principles is a lie, even if you're only lying to yourself."

Thanks for knowing my motives better than I know my motives, reb.

John Edwards called. He wants his empathy back.

25 You don't have to fall in love. You just have to fall in line.

Like hell.

26 McCain's bumper sticker is actually, "Where do you Republicans want my dick? In your ass or... in your ass?"

27 Hey, Jack, not rag on Edwards. He still has a chance to come back and be your candidate.

28

"Six, I'll screw..."

Thanks Jack, but I don't have any sisters and my brothers are happily married.  And no, you're not my type either.  I don't like the screamy, crying, hysterical kind.

But thanks for answering my question - those were serious answers (except six).  You actually know how state and local parties work, and those are the sorts of contacts that candidates have to make (except for railing away on blogs - a lot of the regulars who attend Lincoln Dat dinners think a 'blog' is the monster Steve McQueen defeated with a fire extinguisher). McCain seems to have made those contacts and kept them up over the last eight years.  If you want your dream candidate to win, he or she has to start making the rubber chicken circuit now to have a hope in 2012.

Without those local contacts you don't have your volunteer soldiers, the people who will man phone banks and work polls.  And all the screaming on blogs (see Kos) doesn't really make up for that.

So go and get 'em, tiger.  At least you have a plan of action. 

29 "If McCain held conservatives in contempt, he would be shouting "Bring the Troops Home!" and DEFINITELY not using the word "Islamofascism."

Posted by: Dirk at January 20, 2008 08:36 PM (AJx67)"

Not all conservatives want our soldiers "over there".  A lot of 'em want them to come home.  You guys here obviously think differently, but don't assume you represent all conservative opinion.  You don't.

And there is no such thing as Islamofascism.  It's a bogus, made-up concept.  It makes about as much sense as judeo-maoism, or christo-trotskyism.  What are usually called islamofascists are just very devout muslims, who have the strength of their convictions.  They're doing what their warlord-prophet, Mohammed, bid them to do - kill infidels.  Islam itself is the problem.

If McCain becomes president, it will prove to other republican politicians that they can do the same as he does, and still win elections.  Who will President McCain annoint as his successor?   Vice President Hagel?

It's an old principle, but still a good one: if you prove that you're willing to eat shit, then shit is all you'll ever be given to eat.

30 How are you going to let your various state and local political parties know that this is not what you want?

Surviver reruns are looking pretty good on election day.

31 So JackM is saying we should eat McCain.

Dibs on his brains!

32 2 The Nazis called this "Gleichschaltung" -- the "bringing into line".--Posted by: Purple Avenger at January 20, 2008 08:11 PM (ERV3B)   Well put, Purple Avenger.    I found "William" Crystal unbelievable today. He writes that for his entire life he has heard that fascists are taking over America--that they haven't yet, and they won't ever. Incredible, for his entire life he has heard that fascists are taking over America?! I'm trying to follow his thought there. There was the fear of communism, a very real fear of the communist influence in America from within and without our borders. After WWII, the MSM felt that fascism was made extinct. Even when it appeared on the international scene, the MSM avoided it. Beyond the McCarthy era, the MSM has been mute on communism in America prior to 9/11. Even when Reagan pounded his fist against the communists, the MSM ridiculed him. Our international disaster in Democrat warfare against the Communists was in dropping bombs but not enough to absolutely wipe them out as Goldwater wanted, allowing Congress and the MSM to make our military pay dearly before calling them home as the Democrats would do again today. Who knows. Korea and Vietnam were mismanaged war efforts. Following Nixon's concession to China and surrender with honor in Vietnam, the argument could be made that we might have better succeeded by spending that same amount of war money on PROPAGANDA that would have won over the hearts and souls of the poor and downtrodden who had nothing to lose. Those masses threw in with the pandering communist tribal leaders. So now we're with Bush in Iraq, and there would be the argument that we're fighting Islamofascism in the Middle East and providing education and means to develop Islamic democracies. But we are not of their tribe, and that means everything there. And today the strength of the ACLU et.al. has eliminated many American morals that held our nation together.   Meanwhile, this presidential election is pandering to the masses to throw in with that liberal tsunami. People actually allow themselves to imagine that they'll get more than they give, bringing everyone more hardship than they ever expected. Speculators always push the limit too far.   There is only one candidate who recognizes the signs of the times, and William Crystal hasn't the purported sight to give Fred Thompson the time of day, telling everyone Gleichshaltung with the liberals. 

33

^{John Edwards called. He wants his empathy back.}

But you promised me that for Valentine's Day!

^{And no, you're not my type either.  I don't like the screamy, crying, hysterical kind.}

After the roofies go down, the only thing that matters is that YOU'RE my type Mikey. Is it true you love to eat anything?

34 That's moronic, JackM.  Terrorism and Supreme Court nominations are reason enough to vote Republican regardless of whether any particular candidate meets your conservative litmus test.

All of the Republican candidates have something about them I don't like.  With the exception of Ron Paul, I'd take any of them over any of the Dems' big three.

So buck up and quit acting like such a pussy.  Besides, fatalism is really unattractive.  No wonder MKH won't shag you.

35 "So buck up and quit acting like such a pussy. Besides, fatalism is really unattractive. No wonder MKH won't shag you."

You don't hurt my feelings until you insinuate Suzanne Sena won't shag me.

And you don't hurt Sena's until you insinuate she will.

So, pick your poison.

36 I love the "buck up and quit acting like a pussy" argument.  So far all its done is convince me that I'm going to vote Dem vs. McCain, when he was previously on my 'sit-out' list.  This 'win at all costs' mentality is as unattractive and unconvincing coming from Republicans as it is Dems.  If Shrillary actually wins the White House, HDS is gonna make BDS look like a mild cold.

37 Terrorism and Supreme Court nominations are reason enough to vote Republican regardless of whether any particular candidate meets your conservative litmus test.

Gang of 14 means we can't trust McCain on Supreme Court nominees.  Do you really think he wouldn't cave to his Dem buddies in the name of compromise on terrorism?  You know, like he has on everything else?

38 Unfortunately, it's even a little bit worse. Significant amounts of Democrats didn't hate Kerry for his policy history.

39 Isn't Romney still ahead in delegates? He just won Nevada with barely a mention from the media. Don't let the media pick our nominee.

40

8 years of Hillary appointed SCOTUS Justices is the only thing that would compel me to hold my nose and vote McCain.

In a way, it will be sad if/when the MSM turns on McCain, because he has been basking in their glow for almost 10 years, and will be left a quivering heap when they start attacking him.

 

41

It's 07:18P pacific time. I'm still in total agreement. Hell, I even agree with the "pick your poison" comment.

So. I'm officially a JackM fanboy (in a manly Viking way, of course.) Who knew.

...bring on the poems Jack: I'll (well I can hardly be expected to read them in their daunting entirety, so) glance 'em over good.

And if the thoroughly adorable and enchanting RWS couldn't give me a good reason to choose to forget McCain-Feingold, why do y'all think your feeble fibrillations (pun intended, obviously) about McCain's "stout" Republican tendencies - and without her footnotes (links) - would sway my attitude toward 'im.

Herd response?

...kind of regard myself as more Waldenian than that, y'know.

 

42 Yeah, I've become a very unhappy Romney guy, at least in the primary. After that I'd look to see how far he turns in the general election. At the very minimum he seems able to at least mouth the right words without generally fucking up. That counts for a little.

43 There are two candidates I can not vote for under any circumstances, Hillary and McCain. I might have to sit this one out.

44

Gang of 14 means we can't trust McCain on Supreme Court nominees.  Do you really think he wouldn't cave to his Dem buddies in the name of compromise on terrorism?  You know, like he has on everything else

That's a great point.  Because even if St. John of Arizona makes it to the White House, he'll still be contending with a democrat dominated Congress.  And who's the man with the plan to compromise with his "good friends" on the other side of the aisle?  Why, our boy Johnny, of course!

What will make this all the more nauseating and bad for the country and the GOP is that all of these "compromises" will be lauded in the MSM, cementing a "New Period of Bipartisanship".  And I think we all now what that shit means.  And its not good for conservatives.

45

Okay: let me answer that one. We've survived 30 effin' years of Roe v. Wade ...and that tide is turning. We can survive another 30 years of [anti-]social leftist frickin' activists.

But we can't survive a demagogue with McCain's anti-Constitutional history, and his attack on the First Amendment. Compared to modern liberal socialists (we've proven we survive those already), he's the more dangerous problem. Period.

So appeals to our inherent social conservatism - which the argument about judges boils down to - avail you not at all. We know that already (it's not that it doesn't matter, it's just that in the political equation, it matters less).

 

46 But, everything you fear would happen under a McCain presidency is guaranteed to happen under a Hillary presidency, plus 2 liberal SCOTUS justices that will be around for 30 years, an appeasement foreign policy, the retrenchment of terrorists currently on the run and more, and more, and more...

More and more conservative court decisions have been coming down, liberal gains are being rolled back, but that's just not good enough. I don't like McCain at all, but he's the only candidate that might actually swing congress back to Republicans. The Senate may get close. But you demand your ideological purity or you'll withhold support or even vote for the opposition.

The stupid party strikes again. Cheer yourself that your going to be voting for the same candidate that is preferred by al Qaeda and that you'll also be pulling the same lever as every person that reads DailyKos or is a member of CAIR.

47 I'm just a crazy loveable quavering old fart. And I'm gonna be your candidate, you Stupid Party fools!

48

Great, I'll remember all this when we have a ultra-liberal Supreme Court for the next 30 years.

But, y'all go ahead, at least you were MORALLY correct.

Look, keep fighting for you're preferred candidate, but allowing either Hillary or Obama into the White House 'cus you want to throw a temper tamtrum makes you worse than the worst of the Kos kids!

49 Dammit maybe you're right. McCain is poison. Problem is, Jack, you say similar things about Romney. None of these guys is lovable, but some are more worth getting in line for than others. Rudy and Rom have a shot AND want to please you. That should be good enough in America. Hell, Bush never wanted to please you (but he didn't hate you either (well, maybe now)). But it is impossible to justify supporting a guy who has shown such contempt and arrogance. So I concur, but be clear, sir, it's not about principle, it's about prudence. Standing on principle alone will just break your heart. I guess I'm saying I agree with Hillary even more on this one (dammit), except your analogy is off a bit; Kerrey is more a Dem-version of Romney than a McCain. The right analogy would be if the Dems nominated Leiberman. But they don't seem to be so ignorant about their beliefs or candidates as our voters.

50

I personally don't "fear what would happen under a McCain presidency". It's not a hypothetical.

I personally know what McCain-Feingold did to the First Amendment.

So who is positing the unknowable future here?

Your observation is irrelevant to reality.

51 McCain/Lieberman '08 -- Because we're both despised by our own parties!

I'm wondering where these clowns think all of these open minded independent voters are that would carry this ticket to victory?

52

Okay: let me answer that one. We've survived 30 effin' years of Roe v. Wade ...and that tide is turning. We can survive another 30 years of [anti-]social leftist frickin' activists.

How ironic; your screed sounds very familiar to Kruschev's "We will bury you" speech in 1960 when it came to the communist movement.  30 years later, the Soviet Union fell, so be careful of your predictions.

53

JFH - Are you really that unable to follow a logical dissertation?

 

54 If the race comes down to McCain vs. Hillary, I'd very reluctantly go with McCain, but at that point it wouldn't matter.  By the time the general election rolls around, the media will have turned on McCain with an absolute vengeance and we're going to know every ugly fact about his personal and professional faults.  This will give the independents who voted for him in the primary an excuse to do what they were going to do anyway, which is vote for the Democrat.

McCain will get one thing from me - my vote.  I will not give him any money, I won't give him any time and I'm not going to be able to bring myself to convince others to vote for him on my blog or in my column, because I can barely convince myself to pull the lever for the sanctimonious bastard.

55 This is not the same deal as the 2006 ideological purity wars during the midterms, where it really was dumb to sit out the elections. I can take some ideological impurity and a smattering of RINO's. It is a big country, after all.

But electing McCain would be the same as hiring a Democrat to head up the Republican party. That's somewhat worse than just being defeated outright by the other side.

If McCain won the presidency, we'd feel compelled to defend him and carry his water every time he's attacked by Democrats, as he surely will be, no matter what he does.

Invariably, conservatism itself would be defined so far leftward by us not being able to fight effectively for it against our own guy, that by the end of a possible eight years our bedrock values would seem quaint and silly, we having long abandoned them for political expediency as the Dems did for Bill Clinton.

Fuck that. If we're going to get retard-policies anyway, let the opposition own them, and let us oppose them fullthroated every step of the way with agonizing, harpy-like obstructionism.

Hopefully, it won't ever come to that.

Oh, and did I forget to mention- John McCain is a raging dickweasel, a mean bastard, half insane, arrogant, and prone to spittle-spewing profane outbursts in front of his colleagues. He's nucking futs. I don't want this guy in charge of the White House thermostat, never mind American foreign policy.

56

What is this all about? Is this the same Jack M. who has been pimping Romney for a year?

You all may dislike McCain because he doesn't answer to "the base" and I think it is better that way. I'll vote for a man who answers to the country, even if he wrong a few times, over a pandering fuck who just agrees with Hannity. 

Jack, do you think peope vote on party lines or for the country? 

57

C'mon lauraw, don't hold back hon' ...let us know what you really think about John McCain.

...damn, but that last paragraph was ROTFLMAO funny.

58 McCain doesn't answer to anyone but McCain.

59 I'm crazy as a loon, I'm McCainiac, and I'm your president!

60 Go ahead - vote and work against McCain.  That would be the same as voting and working for the jihadis against our troops and allies - and if you don't believe it, then how do YOU think the world would react to surrender-at-any-price defeating victory-at-any-price for the presidency and both houses?   You can kiss goodbye to a generation's worth of Supreme Court decisions, too.

61 The White House will smell like Crazy Old Man, and he's going to keep it at 89 degrees in there year round and walk around in his boxer shorts and clip his toenails in the Rose Garden where everybody can see him.

Don't do this to yourself, America.

62

Some of you really don't think things through. Why not at least wait to make your "I'll vote for Hillary" vow until McCain announces his VP? We all know Hillary will have to pick some Dennis Kucinich clone to make the lefties love her again. Therefore McCain will have to pick a solid Fred-like conservative except it'll be someone who acts like he has a pulse. And if McCain has to step down after 1 term or dies before, he'll get in.

63

"McCain doesn't answer to anyone but McCain"

Bullshit. There are things I don't like about him, but the man has put his country first at his own expense his entire adult life. I don't like amnesty, but I know that McCain proposed it because he thought it was best for the country. Was he right? Probably not. Did he do it because he thought it would serve him (win over hannity and "the base" and gain political power)? No. He did it because he thought it was the best option and that is more than you can say about the other candidates.

64 Let us have our fun, Dirk.

DESPAIR.
DOOM. WOE.
DOOOOOMMM.

WOE.

Ahh.

65 For the longest time I was worried about the Supreme Court selections made by the next president. The next president is definitely going to get to pick at least 2. Stevens and Ginsburg will die in their chairs before allowing a Republican president to replace them. Here are the ages of the justices from Wikipedia. How bad would things be if  a donk is elected president in Nov? Of course I would be living in terror of the 3rd oldest justice (Scalia) retiring while a donk is in the WH. How would the court be changed by a Kennedy or Breyer being replaced? Would it be all that much different from it’s current 5-4 splits on one side or the other? Unless Scalia retires I don’t see it being much different. Who are the 3 youngest justices? They aren’t going anywhere soon.

Stevens 87
Ginsburg 74
Scalia 71
Kennedy 71
Breyer 69
Souter 68
Thomas 59
Alito 57
Roberts 52


Another thing for consideration is the moving of congressional seats and electors from mainly blue states to red states for the next census. Current red states are looking to pick up some 14-16 electors after 2010.  This could easily shift the election in 2012. Additionally, how hard would it be to win back the House and Senate in 2010 after 2 years of Hillary? I think it could be another clean sweeping of Washington. Maybe this time with real conservatives.

All of this boils down to: Fuck John McCain. I’m not falling in line. I’m not voting for a liberal with an R beside his name just so the R’s keep winning.

66

No appeal to what Hilary Clinton would NOT do under a September 11 condition has ever made any sense to me; generally, those appeals ignore her actual voting history (pre- the run on the White House, when she has had to get past the anti-war loons on the Left) on the war, and the fact that the woman is a frickin' bitch. She scares me. She would be scary. I like the idea of a scary CIC. A lot. And if it's a Clinton: what wonderful frickin' irony.

She may not be my first - or second - choice for CIC (Fred, than Rudy), but she's my third (over every other current candidate of either party) ...and that's even though I think she will be a disaster for the SC appointments.

And every frickin' one of you makin' the "blindly follow the herd", vote the R argument ...really kind of did miss ol' Jack's point in its entirety, don'chathink?

And. I'm not an R apparatchik (take that, JFH) ...I'm a constitutionalist conservative (JeffG calls it a classical liberal). I vote R until the party leaves me. Oh, wait ....

 

67 No. He did it because he thought it was the best option and that is more than you can say about the other candidates.

How did he think it was best for the country?  The country, as you may recall, protested like hell when the amnesty bill came forward.  I don't think I've ever seen a piece of legislation that pissed off more citizens on both sides of the political aisle as that bill but McCain went whole hog for it regardless.

Republicans worked their asses off to win the 2004 election so we could ensure conservative judges.  McCain shot that all to hell with his "Gang of 14."

You know what's good for people in this country?  Getting to keep more of the money we earned.  McCain voted against me being able to keep the money I work for.

So you know what?  To hell with him.  I'm about a half-step away from sitting out the election if he wins the primary.

68 "But electing McCain would be the same as hiring a Democrat to head up the Republican party. That's somewhat worse than just being defeated outright by the other side.........................

......................He's nucking futs. I don't want this guy in charge of the White House thermostat, never mind American foreign policy.

Posted by: lauraw at January 21, 2008 12:04 AM (DbybK)"

Exceptionally well said.

69 Actually, I like Dirk's (inadvertent) suggestion for a McCain slogan:  McCain '08 ... because he's likely to die before the end of his term!

70 "...And if McCain has to step down after 1 term or dies before, he'll get in."

Or he might survive the term and turn ornery and senile. OK, more ornery and senile.

We need an influx of young blood, say, a sprightly, sixty-six yr old whippersnapper.

71 I think McCain would be better, policy-wise, than any of the Dem. crop.  If he were a Democrat, I'd think he was one of the better ones.  As a Republican, he's not so great.

72

"You know what's good for people in this country?  Getting to keep more of the money we earned.  McCain voted against me being able to keep the money I work for."

Are you typing about tax cuts in a thread about McCain not being conservative? I wouldn't vote for a tax cut without a spending cut. Why waste money and cut taxes at the same time? How can you tolerate a short term tax cut if the government is going to piss away a fortune in pork?

McCain FTW. 

73 Are you typing about spending cuts and referring to ANYONE who is currently in Congress?

HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA

74

The only upside to a Hillary Presidency would be the new-found ability for conservatives to blame every forest fire and earthquake on her.

75 Are you typing about tax cuts in a thread about McCain not being conservative? I wouldn't vote for a tax cut without a spending cut. Why waste money and cut taxes at the same time? How can you tolerate a short term tax cut if the government is going to piss away a fortune in pork?

Oh, I don't know...because I worked for the f**king money, perhaps?  I can "tolerate" a short-term tax cut because the f**cking government isn't entitled to my money, a principle that McCain betrayed when he voted against the tax cut.

Go ahead, McCain supporters, keep pushing me toward the dark side. Your spin only reminds me of the many reasons I can't stand McCain.

76 Go ahead - vote and work against McCain.  That would be the same as voting and working for the jihadis against our troops and allies - and if you don't believe it, then how do YOU think the world would react to surrender-at-any-price defeating victory-at-any-price for the presidency and both houses? [branches?]

I've asked this question as well. It never seems to get answered. What about the message a Hillobama victory would send to our enemies and our troops?

Every one of you Hillobama fans have criticized the congress, the dems, and the squishy repubs in congress for the damage they've done to the war effort in terms of perceptions. Most have you have given credit to McCain for his steadfastness with due criticism on tangential issues like "torture" and such. How do you reconcile this?

All of a sudden McCain would be no better on the war than the dems on the war, and perceptions? Oh, they don't seem to matter anymore.

77 And let's not forget - McCain blamed the Minneapolis bridge collapse on pork-barrel spending.

The bridge collapse, of course, was actually the result of a design flaw.

I guess we shouldn't let the facts get in the way of a good soundbite, though, right?

78

So the mind naturally returns to our last liberal Republican President - Nixon, who, except for the China thing, was an unmitigated disaster. He gave us the EPA, Wage and Price controls, OSHA, Carter and the destruction of the Party for a decade.  We may have to "settle" for McCain, but dark clouds are forming.

 

Only Nixon's reelection slogan was good:

 

Don’t change Dicks in the middle of a screw,

Vote for Nixon in ’72.

 

79 You gotta love it: if you don't bow to the God-King McCain, you're a fan of Obama! The logic of the RINO.

80 Robert,

It's easy to dump on Nixon, but the more important question that pertains to us now is: was he better than the alternative? I would venture to say fuck yeah!

And what else was going on while Nixon was in office? Ronald Reagan was building his movement.

 

81

Slu:

I love your analysis of the tax cut. I could use that extra $10grand I worked for, and if Congress wants to piss away the rest, fuck them sideways. At least I get back what I earned.

Is it selfish? Yeah, it is. But that's money I know would be spent wiser than it going to a pork project in North Dakota.

Shit, between your reminding me of the tax cut, and Laura's comment, that "support" I would give McCain is dwindling. That's what I get for thinking.

82 Just can't answer the question, eh Chrissy?

83 We can survive another 30 years of [anti-]social leftist frickin' activists.

Jump off tall building.
Pass 50th floor.
So far, so good.

84 And, BTW, I'm slightly to the right of Barry G. I'm just not a shortsighted, emotional wreck.

85 Shit, between your reminding me of the tax cut, and Laura's comment, that "support" I would give McCain is dwindling. That's what I get for thinking.

Heh.  That's about where I am.  The more I think about McCain's record, the less I like him.

86

The more I think about McCain's record, the less I like him.

He's like The Phantom Menace that way.  And others, really.

Deep.

87

I think, at this point, that efforts to persuade strong conservatives to vote for McCain are counterproductive.

Wait until after the convention.  When the dust has settled, and there's no other choice, will be the time to point out how J-Mac is better than whoever the Dem is. 

Even then, it might be wiser for McCain supporters to keep mostly silent and let conservatives try to persuade themselves that half a loaf is better than none.

Arguing now is a bit premature, given that you're not going to persuade any of the strongly anti-McCain people to actually like him at any time.

88

runninrebel - Oh but I have responded ...perhaps you've overlooked the point?

(Don't include Obama in your snark mix: him, I know nothing about, and what little I do know doesn't impress me. If the Dem's are stupid enough to run Obama ...somewhat akin to the Republicans being stupid enough to run McCain IMHO ...than I give my vote to my favourite Looney Tunes write-in. I wouldn't have drank the Kool-aid in Guyana in '78, either btw.)

Based upon enumeration of past performance all politicians simply suck. But McCain-Feingold put John McCain in a whole new category of "suck": he's in the unacceptable-for-any-reason category, as a known danger to the Republic.

(I won't repeat the arguments I've made in the other thread at Ace on the subject: gimme a break and be pro-active here.)

Briefly though, based upon what I know and conjecture of Hilary, and my understanding (not very deep, thank gawd) of the current Dark Side politics environment she operates under, I don't fear her response to a 9/11 scenario ...so appeals to that particular hyperbolic automatic revulsion response aren't so persuasive to me. Maybe I should (i.e., fear) ...but who can know for sure.

But McCain? No ...he's an anti-consititutionalist. I've no taste for his ceasar-ist tendency: I'd prefer dealing with he simple ol' Southern graft of the Huey Long school of politics that the Clintos ape so well.

Now. I'd prefer Fred, or perhaps Rudy. But a Hildebeast presidency in the GWOT don't cause me to quake in my boots anymore.

89 Calix,

I don't think there are any actual McCain supporters here. The main problem is that a good number of people on this blog can't think long-term and panic every time someone they don't like wins a primary. Apoplectic vows ensue.

90 davis,br,

I get all that. I don't like him either. But we must prioritize, and I'm looking for an answer to the question I've asked before, the question the Police Commissioner asked in #60.

91 "I believe my party has gone astray. I think the Democratic Party is a fine party, and I have no problems with it, in their views and their philosophy." -Senator John McCain

"I know money corrupts;I would rather have a clean government than one where,quote,First Amendment rights are being respected..." -John McCain

Just a reminder about who you're boosting here. Who you want people to vote for. Remember his desire to shut down Guantanamo Bay? To end coercive questioning? To block the tax cuts?

We do.

92

"Oh, I don't know...because I worked for the f**king money, perhaps?  I can "tolerate" a short-term tax cut because the f**cking government isn't entitled to my money, a principle that McCain betrayed when he voted against the tax cut."

The government has a better claim on your taxable income than they do on my income that I might earn at some point if I am lucky enough to have cash to offer in tribute. Quit spending money I haven't even had a chance to earn and lose to the government. If you want to cut taxes, cut spending also. Even if you don't want to cut taxes, cut spending. I understand why you don't like McCain, but he is not a left-wing media whore. The voting public will agree and the "blogosphere" will be as irrelevant as it has been.

McCain may be a dick, but you would be to if you were working at his job in DC.

 

"Go ahead, McCain supporters, keep pushing me toward the dark side. Your spin only reminds me of the many reasons I can't stand McCain."

Darkside=huckabee?

93 Christopher,

I can't stand McCain. But if it makes me a "booster" because I'll help him get elected if my only other choice is Hillobama, then you are a Hillobama booster for helping her it get elected.

But really, I'm just looking for an answer to the question.

Can you answer it or not?

94

runnin' rebel: I. Disagree. With. His. Premises. Entirely.

Is that a simple enough answer?

I've said this several times, actually.

My observation is that expressed fears of Hil's response to a 9/11 scenario and the GWOT are inflated by the more easily understood ire that her indisputably socialist tendencies understandably arise in those of us with conservative world-views ...that is, they project their fears from the one to the other ...and they don't necessarily follow. She's not Bill. She's not the caricature we like to see her as, either.

OTOH, my hopeful speculation is that I rather think she will be quite a good CIC in the event of a 9/11 scenario ...because she's a mean, conniving, tactical hard-assed bitch ...who will not repeat the mistakes of her husband's term. Like a Madge Thatcher (bless her sainted memory), if from a different - entirely though appositely different - political perspective. Simply put she's Teh Mean.

Good, that.

I don't think you eff' around with a President Hildebeast. I equally conjecture that Islamofascists have no suspicion whatsoever of that possibility, so they'll do something asinine again (actually, that's less a prediction than it is an inevitability). That will be a mistake. They do those rather well. The consequences will be startling to them. As, perhaps, in the event, to you too.

...that is, if I'm right about Hil'. Which I have at least as much chance of being as #60 (more, I suspect). Again, whose premises I reject.

But about McCain, it's not a matter of if I'm right ...I already am.

...and that's your - and #60's - answer.

95

It's easy to dump on Nixon, but the more important question that pertains to us now is: was he better than the alternative? – runninrebel.

 

That, my friend, is a very good question:

 

McGovern would have lost the war quicker and cheaper, and we would still have the EPA et al.

 

The Dem’s got whatever they wanted anyway, so the only difference was Rehnquist.

 

But when we elect a Democrat under a Republican name we can’t complain and we get blamed and killed in the next election.

 

Your point about Reagan is a good one, but Reagan followed Carter, not Nixon.  After Nixon it was not possible to elect a Republican no matter who it might have been.

 

Ways that McCain reminds me of Nixon:

 

Nixon had Bebe Rebozo, McCain had Charles Keating.

 

Nixon would have voted against the tax cuts also.

 

Nixon had Detente’, not fundamentally different in approach from the gang of 14.

 

Nixon did Rayburn, McCain did Kennedy, Kerry and Feingold. (In Macy’s window).

 

Neither had the spine to stand up to Democrats when it got tough.

 

Both ran on promises to win the war, but if you can’t stand up even to Democrats…

 

Nixon had the EPA, McCain has Global Warming.

 

Nixon’s position on the gold standard is contributing to the drop in the dollar, McCain’s position on drilling in ANWR is contributing to the drop in the dollar.

 

Rebel,

 

On this last one, can you find any reason other than pandering to Democrats for McCain to vote against drilling in ANWR?  If not, what then, is the difference?

96 burnitup,
you're right Ginsburg and Stevens would die before letting a Republican replace them, but they just might die in the next 4 years. Reports say Stevens wants out as soon as possible and he's frickin' ancient. Second, you say letting a dem replace them won't change much since they are liberals. The idea is to get away from having the Constitution mean whatever Kennedy (before him it was O'Connor) says it means. Replacing even one liberal with a conservative changes the court to where Kennedy's vote is no longer the determining factor. We only need ONE liberal justice replaced with a conservative to create a conservative majority. A democrat win means that can't happen until Kennedy retires and he's a moderate more than a liberal so the gain isn't nearly as important.

The compromise with the dems on judge nominations meant getting a lot of judges moved forward including Alito and Roberts. Was it as much fun as going to the mattresses? No. But we ended up getting nearly everything we wanted. Winning is good even if it requires compromise.

As for you immigration haters, it seems that now Bush must be on your traitor list as well. What if you had taken this position in 2000 and president Gore would have been in charge on 9/11? Where would we be now? You don't know what the future holds so it's best to remember you're voting for a Commander in Chief.

97 davis,br,

You reject the premise that perceptions matter? You don't think a Hillary! win will be translated all over the world as a defeat for the Bush Doctrine and our campaigns thus far? Or that our troops will see it the same way? That sounds like you are being purposefully obtuse.

You may be right about Hillary! being a bad-ass bitch after another 911. I happen to think the same. But why would our enemies feel the need to test her unless they had the perception that the country had given up? I'd prefer it if we didn't give them the idea, engage the law enforcement approach, and virtually guarantee it happens.

And would you vote for Obama over McCain as well? I didn't catch that.

98

If Nixon lost in 1968, Humphrey might have been so unpopular that the Republicans would have won back Congress by 72. President McGovern probably would have made Carter look competent and sold out the Israelis in the 1973 war.

99 Robert,

You're kinda missing my point about Nixon and Reagan. Reagan's movement wasn't capable of winning an election in 1968 or 1972. It wasn't even developed.

It doesn't matter how bad the dems are, if there isn't a real conservative movement built in time of the election, it won't matter. The only alternative then would have been some other half-assed conservative. My point is that a half-assed conservative will always do until the movement is ready to win.

This idea that all we have to do is let the dems destroy the country and, Ta-daaa!, a real conservative movement sweeps in to save the day is ahistorical and wishful thinking at best. Movements take time.

100

runninrebel - ...and, in order of asked ....

1. Well, actually, yes: I'm not an existentialist, and I utterly reject Derrida deconstructionism ...I'm a conservative, a classical liberal (same thing) if you will, and a bit of an optimist about stuff (an artifact of my devout - if flippant and irreligious - Christianity). But his (#60's) premise is essentially that Hilary will be ineffectual at the GWOT, which I utterly reject as disprovable (and, as you yourself, later in your reply, essentially reject his premise too, I think we're actually in agreement about that ...which I am rather mildly surprised, though pleased, to discover).

2. No. And it wouldn't matter if it was. I'm not a big fan of "what the rest of the world thinks"; I'm a neo-nationalist true believer of truth, justice and the American way - of the USA as the last best hope of mankind - and frankly I don't give a good gawdamn what the world thinks of us.

3. Unfortunately, yes ...however temporarily. But if she's the bitch we both hope she'll be, well, military types aren't a naturally antithetical group to hard-assed commanders. "We'll see" is my hopeful response.

4. Ah. Reality check (and see 1. above). I heartily approve of your sane and reasonable analysis.

5. Our enemies will attack anyway; they're not going to be testing anyone, they hate the West, period. They will attack, equally period. It will suck. It will be her watch. She will deal with it. So your preference doesn't enter into the equation at all.

6. No: In that case, naturally I'd vote for my favourite Looney Tunes character (Daffy Duck). I'm not supportively suicidal; I would have ran for the frickin' trees in Guyana in '78. I'm not going to punch D or R in your grimly catastrophic scenario (which isn't - yet - a given); I'll take my chances with "Other" or "None of the Above".

 

101 You gotta love it: if you don't bow to the God-King McCain, you're a fan of Obama! The logic of the RINO.

 Immature emotionalism.  A grown-up citizen of a democratic republic doesn't bow down to anyone.  Supporting McCain as nominee, if it comes to that - and I also hope it doesn't - doesn't mean that we all go to sleep after his election and focus exclusively on masturbatory fantasies about FNC babes. 

It's conceivable that, Davis-br @#94 might be right - that Hillary would be a frighteningly vicious C-in-C who would interpret any attack on the U.S. as a personal attack on her and her power, and therefore worthy of an unstinting response.  She may also be cynical enough to have been making clear commitments to her base regarding the war and other policies with the full intention of turning her back on them as soon as necessary.  However, such speculation also presumes that we would be putting one of the most cynical politicians on the planet at the center of the most powerful political office in history. 

We're not talking about somebody who occasionally loses his temper and foully berates his associates and colleagues, as is said of McCain.  We've had THAT before in the presidency and other positions of life-and-death power and have survived.  It's not really that unusual.

The same presumption that makes you believe that Hillary would turn on Al Qaeda or anyone else with murderous glee, if she felt herself threatened, also must force you to accept that she could and likely would turn on her domestic enemies - which she has already identified as a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy - if she felt it served her purposes, and there's much reason to believe that it might.  Such an individual would also be likely to ignore foreign threats and other dangers for as long as politically useful, and then to blame the result on the VRWC or anyone else she needed to, even as she adopted policies that would make a responsible war leader, like Bush or perhaps McCain, hesitate on grounds of prudence, humanity, or the long-term interest of the country. 

Say that the economy goes into the toilet, or that a recession begun this year turns into long-term stagnation.  Democrats of Hillary's type are masters at turning the negative results of their policies into a prescription for yet more of the same, and as a means of further consolidating their power.  The speculative war-fighting scenario you imagine might be exactly what a politician like Hillary needs to consolidate her power - helping her to equate opposition to confiscatory levels of taxation and to ever greater powers and responsibilities in the state sector with treason. 

In short, the scenario of Hillary as warrior queen includes among many other dreadful risks and equally dreadful near-certainties, the possibility a President pushing the Democrat's agenda in full force, while using war as an excuse to silence and suborn the opposition.  Note:  She may not need a war, and may instead choose, like her husband, to gut the military in order to fund all the "Christmas presents" she has in mind for us.

In the meantime, davis-br's speculative reply about how Hillary MIGHT act as C-in-C has nothing to do with the real world situation that we are facing of troops in the field and a mandate to surrender at any price, which is exactly the mandate that both Obama and Hillary are seeking.  That's bad enough, and will likely lead to unnecessary losses whether or not either of them reverses policy once in office. 

In any event, whether or not Hillary or Obama gets real once in office on the war, the expectation that Republicans would return to power by 2010, 2012, 2016, or 2020,  merely because Democrat policies didn't work as advertised, is nothing more than wishful thinking - especially after massive new client constituencies are attached to "reformed" health care, immigration, and environmental bureaucracies. 

102

runninrebel - Point of fact: Reagan's conservatism won him the California governorship in 1966. And began considerably before that. Go here

103 1, 2, & 5. The premise is concerned with what Hillary! would do before the second 911, which would be to focus on the law enforcement approach. That would greatly weaken our ability to act swiftly without diplomatic and domestic legal wrangling. She's not going to walk in the door and act like a bad-ass. She's going to send envoys and call for conferences to create 'dialog'. She's going to get walked on by unfriendly nations while praising our new relationships. She won't use force unless we are attacked.

Every leader is tested. It starts small and builds gradually. It's not "what the world think of us", it's what our opponents and enemies think they can get away with. f we look like we have given up they will perceive it and act accordingly. McCain understands this. Hillary doesn't. Her approach would make the war expand greatly in the long run, while tying our hands at the same time.

3. That alone isn't worth it to me. Not while they're in-theater

4. I take it back. We just disagree on the premise.

6. Not voting or voting None of the Above is a cop out. It won't make you any less responsible for what happens.

 I think it's moot anyway. McCain isn't going to win the nomination.

104 102. Yeah, I know that. It doesn't mean he had a national movement that could usurp the Party in the Nixon era.

105

PCH Hussein - C'mon ...you cannot possibly have missed the point of the entire thread, can you? Reality check time.

The simple point being made in the entire thread was that a hypothetical Hilary was less dangerous than an actual McCain, in re: McCain-Feingold, and my reasoned rejection of an unknowable projection of what a Hil' response to a 9/11 scenario would be by others in the thread. (Which, as it turned out, runninrebel actually agreed with.)

...but which you've somehow manage to conflate from a thoroughly hypothetical presumption on her possibly positive attributes into a full-blown conspiratorial HDS (Hilary Derangement Syndrome) moment of complete fascist control of the government by the Hildebeast brownshirts (I s'pose). I couldn't get much past that point.

Gah.

You might want to try following the thread next time?

The only defense of that is that you're entirely within the persona of your Middle Eastern nom de plume in its hysterical enunciation ...which is merely damning with faint praise btw.

Really dude, you need to pay attention.

 

106

runninrebel - The very, very best response I've read to the "cop-out" cop tonight (can't recall the thread) is: asking me to choose between Stalin and Hitler isn't a choice at all. Obama vs. McCain? The frying pan or the fire? The Colt or the S&W?

Not a hit. No point. Your choices ...aren't.

...it ain't over 'til it's over, and I hope those aren't the choices. Maybe sanity will infect the electorate with its currently hideously unwelcome rationality. Maybe not.

It's getting late, and I'm getting morose, snippy, and tired. And moody. So it boils down to:

In a McCain vs Obama: who the fuck cares? I don't see the hope y'all have apparently convinced yourselves in McCain: I see him as the dagger plunging into the heart of the Constitution. So we're screwed both ways. One direction is towards Empire ...and the destruction of the Republic. The other direction is toward the Gulag ...and the destruction of the Republic. In that scenario, I feel like I'm looking towards Mordor regardless.

 

107 I thought you said you were an optimist? Jeesh.

108

OTOH, my hopeful speculation is that I rather think she will be quite a good CIC in the event of a 9/11 scenario ...because she's a mean, conniving, tactical hard-assed bitch ...who will not repeat the mistakes of her husband's term. Like a Madge Thatcher (bless her sainted memory), if from a different - entirely though appositely different - political perspective. Simply put she's Teh Mean.

That's what you wrote, DUDE.  Excuse me for basing my reply on the plain meaning of the paragraph and others like it - rather than on whatever it is you meant to say or have subtly hidden within the statement.

I have no idea what the following is supposed to mean:

The simple point being made in the entire thread was that a hypothetical Hilary was less dangerous than an actual McCain, in re: McCain-Feingold, and my reasoned rejection of an unknowable projection of what a Hil' response to a 9/11 scenario would be by others in the thread. (Which, as it turned out, runninrebel actually agreed with.)

The "point" may be simple to you.  To me, the statement  - especially in the words following "reasoned rejection" - is confoundingly self-entangled.  Are you or are you not standing by the argument made in the earlier paragraph?  I can't quite tell.  The only thing that's clear from it to me is that you enjoy yourself very much. 

I'll try again:  You might like to think that Hillary would respond forcefully to an attack on the U.S., and you might like to think further that she would adopt rational policies vis-a-vis Iraq and Afghanistan, among other foreign policy challenges, but there is little or nothing in her record and in her public statements to support these suppositions - to the contrary.  She speaks and argues like a typical Democratic Party defeatist utterly incapable even of acknowledging, much less understanding, a strategic context and the political and military operations mounted to address it.  If her ignorance is not just a show that she puts on for the left wing of her party, then your hopes are ill-founded.  If it is such a show, then she is an alarmingly cynical individual desperate to take power, and an inestimable danger to her real domestic political enemies, and to the country itself - not just to prospective foreign enemies.

As for the rest, specifically the apples and oranges comparison of your "actual McCain" and "hypothetical Hilary," I suspect we'll just have to leave it for another time and probably another thread.

109

 

We just disagree Rebel, Nixon did nothing to bring us Reagan, he just set the country against Republicans; that is my point.

 

Reagan almost got the nomination in ’76, if he had won, he probably would have got beat in the general and there would have been no Reagan.  This was the mood of the country then, after Watergate and the Pardon and the rest of the crap.  In point of fact, Nixon almost prevented Reagan.  The whole country went way left after Nixon, at every level of government.  Reagan won 46 States in ‘80; no way he does this in ’76.

 

The mood of the country was far different after Carter.  This makes my point in reverse – a bad Democrat for them was worse than a Republican, thus the next 12 years of Republican Presidents.

 

So yes, a bad Republican can be worse than a Democrat.

 

110

"So JackM is saying we should eat McCain."

Hmm...actually, EJS, I think I'm saying that McCain can eat me."
This sounds like something "tom" would post.

 

No one in the McCain family has worked for anyone but the federal government for a 100 years.  Where do you think he believes money comes from? 

This is not over yet, CHILL!

Kemp

 

111 Yeah, hilarious post, if you accept the theory that McCain is the Worst Candidate Ever. Please explain to me how McCain is substantially different than President Bush? The world as conservatives know it didn't come to an end with Bush as president. Bush signed the campaign reform legislation. Bush was a prime architect and mover of the immigration bills. Bush has signed all the budgets to come his way, pork and all.

I'd like to know what candidate you guys think can actually win, that has the perfect, lockstep conservative dogma resume that will satisfy the whingers. I don't think McCain is ideal, but he can win, which is damnsure more than any other candidate, save possibly Rudy, can do for the Republicans.

Note to fredheads: the guy can't even win South Carolina. He doesn't have the drive, ambition and heart to run for president in this country. Sorry, but its by now a proven fact. He doesn't want to work for it.

112 That's kinda the point, docweasel. The last two elections, even though I didn't like Bush, I voted for him, even though it made me throw up in my mouth a little bit, just because the alternative was so much worse.

I just can't do it again. The margin between how bad McCain is and how much worse Hillary is is a lot narrower this time. I don't need a guy who is "lock-step" on conservative principles, but McCain treats conservative principles as little brown blobs he flushes down the toilet.

My "dogma" is lower taxes, limited government, and national security. McCain's record is dismal on all three. (I count border security as national security.) His position on border security is the same as Hillary's. He will expand government in the name of fighting ManBearPig and providing access to access to health care, as will Hillary. He voted against the Bush tax cuts, as did Hillary. (I don't buy his flip-flopping on the Bush tax cuts for a second.)

If McCain is what it takes to win, I don't want to win. I'm tired of the Republican party giving me a sh-t sandwich every four years and telling me I have to eat it because the sh-t sandwich the Democrats are serving is worse. You know what? If I have to eat a sh-t sandwich either way, then what the Hell does it matter?

113 I just found a bunch of people worthy of living under Stalin and the Taliban.  The Stalinint/conservative movement is consumed by hatred.   You deserve the Islamic state you are working so hard to create.

114

If McCain gets the nom (thats a huge if), he can win without the support of the part of the base that dismisses him as a RINO and insufficiently pure.

We've seen that in the primaries- independents like him. They will break for him more than they will HIllary.

Rudys m y man, but Ill never sit out an election to make a "point" that will yield full control of my country to the Defeatocrats

115

I don't think McCain is ideal, but he can win, which is damnsure more than any other candidate, save possibly Rudy, can do for the Republicans.

You're insane. McCain is a Senator, elderly, hated by his own base, with a lot of corruption and personal issues in his past. I haven't seen a less electable candidate since Lyndon Larouche.

116 Posted at NRO:

"If the choice is between choosing the lesser of 4 evils and teeing up a process by which the GOP reinvents itself for the 21st Century, I’m inclined to opt for the latter. Coupled with losing Congress in 2006, losing the presidency in 2008 will provide a pair of defeats that surely will prompt “attentiveness” on the part of the GOP leadership and the intellectual base of think tanks and academics who helped lay the foundation for the Reagan and Gingrich revolutions. Just as the Israelis had to be punished for listening to the 10 fearful spies, the GOP needs to be punished for having been seduced by Bush and DeLay. Just as the Israelis came back stronger and fitter for the tasks ahead, so might a chastened GOP."

I think we need to finish off the Republican Party, and start a New Republican Party around the First Principles of: 1. Lower Taxes and Less Spending. 2. National Security Including Border Security. 3. Less Power to the Government, More Freedom to the People.

Until we have a new Republican Party, I will vote against anyone in the Old Republican Party that stands against those three principles, as does John McCain.

117 "Fuck that. If we're going to get retard-policies anyway, let the opposition own them, and let us oppose them fullthroated every step of the way with agonizing, harpy-like obstructionism."

Well put. It the country is going to hell in a hand basket, let the Dems get the blame.

118

Posted by: Slublog at January 21, 2008 12:31 AM (7ASE5)

McCain abused the citizens not only with his legislation, but with his jaundiced rhetoric calling us bigots for wanting rule of law against McCain's judgment.

The only way to make a statement is by vote, not by skipping the election. Should the occasion call for it, then write in your candidate of choice and have that on record.

As if McCain's legislative record doesn't impugn him beyond acceptability, his downfall is inevitable at one point or another, whether in campaign or in office. One thing is certain; he will take us all down with him. His saving grace is having endured life as an American POW in Vietnam. Even if he were a straight arrow when he entered the military, he came out of Vietnam one twisted soul who learned that he alone is all that matters. When he signed the anti-American Communist Propaganda he blinked "torture" for the camera to record and for Americans to forgive because we all understood then that ultimately under torture, everyone breaks and admits the truth. Now, incredibly, McCain purports that torture does not elicit truth from the uncooperative subject.Even the AP with their lily white hands constantly features news stories from the Middle East that are based upon testimony under torture, no mention of that by the AP of course. How will McCain save America when there is no alternative choice? Because we rightly trust our military code of honor, people trust that McCain will allow our military strength to overpower our enemies. But when it comes to military endeavors McCain is a one-man-show. 1) He does NOT take advice from anyone; 2) he blames others for his own faults; 3) he takes credit for others' accomplishments. Combining those attributes, uniform not withstanding, as Commander in Chief, McCain is a brute without wisdom. Though Rumsfeld finally was released, McCain continued his constant harranging nipping at Bush and the Joint Chiefs, belittling everything as not enough or not right, including Petraeus' plan. Now we hear McCain presume that HE engineered and executed Petraus' swell of forces and success in Iraq.

At best, McCain is a RINO. His political allegiance, strangely enough, is with the Democrat Party. Strange, I say, because it was the Democrat Party that caused him the most turmoil in Vietnam. But then, surviving torture and having spilt guts, the soul enmeshed in guilt and fury twists beyond reason. McCain has our compassion for what could have been, but he is not what he should have been as GOP Senator from Arizona. Recognize what is before you, because McCain is not what he should be for GOP POTUS. Instead, McCain's hands fit perfectly into the Democrat glove.

Others have previously reasoned that politically, Republicans would fare better in Congress against a Democrat by name POTUS than against a RINO turncoat. In every civilization, as morals devolve, conservatism is permanently lost as the tide pushes beyond liberalism. Efforts to maintain what conservatism still exist are the only success that adherence to the Constitutional plan for government enjoys. Any radical effort to cut and paste what is "right" for everyone is a fascistic move for more government involvement and influence at the expense of citizens' Constitutional rights. There is no reason to remain a Nixonian "silent majority" when Fred Thompson is campaigning for POTUS.

I have the deepest respect for all of our military men and women, including McCain for his service during Vietnam. May God protect our forces that protect our Constitution. May we have the will and wisdom to protect our Constitution with our voice and vote.

119

You ever notice, when we are talking McCain, none of the better trolls show up?  Must be that "Don't interfere when your enemy is fucking up..." thingy.

120 "You ever notice, when we are talking McCain, none of the better trolls show up? Must be that "Don't interfere when your enemy is fucking up..." thingy."

True. What's sad though, is if our side wasn't having a crisis of our own, think of how enjoyable it would be to see the in-fighting that's going on over there.

121 Face it -- unless you stay home or vote for one of the 3rd party candidates, if McCain is the GOP nominee you will be voting Democrat -- it's just a matter of degree.  You know, like if Lieberman were the candidate -- right on the war, wrong on nearly everything else.

122 Well, we're not really having a crisis, though. You can't be in crisis until some crossroads moment actually happens, and it hasn't yet.

Right now we're just discussing what-ifs.

123

Some time towards the begining of 2007, Rush played a soundbite of the Hill! telling some Code Pink woman to sit down and shut the fuck up, that she (the Hill!) knew way more about Iraq than this Code Pinker as she had information from the senate intelligence comittee and that the US was needed in Iraq.  I believe that she would see that things are going well in Iraq and would see it through.  I base that opinion on her prior support for the war, and her current do/say anything to get elected attitude (I think she will lie to the far left to get their vote).  Now, she would be a nightmare with her domestic agenda, but maybe the Republicans in Congress would grow a pair and put the kibosh on what they could, seeing how most of the power lies with congress anyways.  Johnny Mac on the other hand, is not much different from Hill!, but more likely to get a mushy consensus and pass some very shitty domestic agendas like Amnesty.  The biggest blip on Hills! radar is the supreme court nominees, but once again, I don't think McCain is going to put strict constructionists on the court.  So if it comes down to Hillary! vs McCain, I will sit it out as neither is worthy of my vote.  That and at least we can say it's all the Dems fault instead of trying to make excuses for the Republicans.

124

Unlike many here, I do not think McCain can beat Hillary or Obama, so it is not a matter of "holding my nose" for me.  McCain will be eviscerated by his media buddies if and when he becomes the nominee, and they will have some compelling evidence of his tempramental unsuitability to be POTUS to point to.  Sure, Hillary does too, but that will never come out if she gets the nod, will it?

125

V the K

About the NRO professor quote:

" the intellectual base of think tanks and academics who helped lay the foundation for the Reagan and Gingrich revolutions.  ...the GOP needs to be punished for having been seduced by Bush and DeLay."

Hey, without Tom DeLay, Gingrich's revolution would not have been facilitated. Furthermore, the culprit Ronnie Earle is leaving Austin's Travis County DA Office, and if anyone needs to be punished, it is Earle for indicting DeLay using parallel Nifong political tactics to indict, incriminate and ruin DeLay without proper legal basis on law and evidence. DeLay has NOT been convicted of any charges made by Ronnie Earle, and will be exonerated but for public opinion based on the liberal propaganda. He pushed the envelope but NOT beyond legitimacy to be the effective "hammer" that facilitated both Gingrich's revolution and GWBush's Chief Executive legislative directives.

The GOP needs to be punished for having elected GWBush?!

We've already been punished. If we support another compassionate conservative we indict ourselves as liberals deserving higher taxes and less responsibility from everyone, ourselves included. Submission without dissent is folly. Maintain the conservative platform.

126 If McCain makes it to the nom, he won't win the general.

The MSM will evicerate him with the Keating 5 24/7.

And use his stupid McCain-Feingold bill as the weapon.

Why? Because with that bill, McCain essentially admitted that he can't be honest when big money's involved. As honorable as he was in Vietnam, when money's on the line, he has no honest core.

Just think about those type of questions from the media and in the debates. McCain will blow his stack and look like a crazy skeeze. Maybe our guys should ask him about that crap.
If he can handle it, great. If he can't, buh-bye.

127

If I have to eat a sh-t sandwich either way, then what the Hell does it matter?

The McCain sammich is nuttier.

 

*rim-shot*

128 Darth Randall -- Hillary Clinton has an unrelieved contempt for every single member of the US military.  She refused to even let them wear their unuforms on WH duty.  On her one trip to Iraq, in the middle of active 24/7 operations, she had the troops at Bagram air base locked out of their own dining facility, to stand in the Iraqi sun while she and her entourage enjoyed a leisurely 90-minute breakfast.

There is no way in hell she would be an effective commander in chief.

129

Latest Rasmussen tracking poll in the closed (Republican only) Florida Primary

 

Romney 25

McCain 20

Rudy 19

Huch 13

 

Interestingly, Romney is winning big with self-described conservatives and McCain and Rudy are dooking it out for the moderate vote.

 

Who woulda thunk it? 

130 Maybe the Republican Party doesn't deserve another term, but we all know the Democratic Party definitely doesn't deserve it. Their whole attitutde toward terrorism since 2001 has been hypocritical and offensive to Americans. They could not care less that Clinton and Gore were hurting their beloved Islamic terrorists but when George Bush does it, suddenly it is worse than Hitler.

131 Huch = equals Huck but I could have spelled it dishonest douchebag, too.

132

PCH Hussein - DO NOTE: I'm on my way to work; no more time for this today after this polite explanation (I'm surprised the overall thread still appears to be active ...which says something about the passion of the anti-McCains I s'pose). As to your confusion.

Actually, "I think both your cites" state my position.

But the sub-thread you rather hysterically commented on was an observation on who would be worse for the country, McCain or Hilary. A lesser of two evils argument, if you will. I made the observation that I know McCain would be worse (and gave my usual reason: McCain-Feingold). AND (and this is important) I also tried to explain why I thought most of those saying Hilary would be worse weren't being substantive.

I then proceeded to [positively] conjecture on why Hilary might be an acceptable (not a desireable one mind you ...and that appears to have been a subtle enough distinction that it just totally escaped your notice) candidate IF her opponent was John McCain (who I consider thoroughly unfit to be president under ANY circumstances). It was a "lesser of two evils" argument in which the anti-Hilary-ists (which I would mostly and usually be inclined to support, if from a more nuanced position) were ignoring what might possibly be positive attributes of her [possible] presidency (and which - if true - would negate their purely hypothetical diatribes).

Which you proceeded to run with in a bug-fuck crazy Hollywood-ish neo-Nazi's at the gates of Washington hell-type brownshirt scenario (which was pretty funny, actually: I do seem to recall a lot of the more conspiratorially minded people - of both political flavours - positing the probability of the same sort of thing during Clinton 1 and  - as we've all seen recently - during Bush 2, in their respective political coteries) ...that is, if Hollywood would actually see anything perturbing about your little presentation at all (which, I doubt: though I do NOT want you to take that as encouragement, and keep wandering down that particular lane of madness).

She's not the anti-Christ dude. She's a Wesley girl (which means she has imbibed some truly awful socialist tendencies) with a tenacious fixation upon attaining the presidency (who knows: might happen ...and against McCain, I will pro-actively vote for her ...McCain is a clear danger to the Constitution, she's just a liberal activist whose policies we will likely have to fix someday later), a view to her place in US history (unlike her a$$hole husband's sojourn: she cares about the historians ...and that is a possibly good thing), and as much graft as her little palms can be greased with (a la her Huey Long progenitor ...with the Clintons, its always about the Clintons ...not that I am under any illusions that this probably doesn't describe most politicians, whom I take a generally jaundiced view of) without getting caught.

But il Duce she's not. So chill with the bug-fuck crazy, conspiratorially-inclined stuff.

...and yes, I was having a pretty good time ...right up until I was presented with the Obama vs. McCain choice ...when my only reply was "we're fucked anyways, so why would it matter anymore".

...hope this cleared all that confusion up ...if it did.

133

Richard McEnroe-

I didn't mean to imply that Hillary! was a swell human being or that she would make an excellent CiC.  I just don't believe that she will cut and run from Iraq.  McCain is Hillary! lite to me, only I think he stands a better chance than she, of getting a crappy domestic agenda rammed through congress.  I could be wrong, she and slick willie did steal a shit load of FBI files and they know where a lot of skeletons are buried.  That said, when it all starts to turn for the worse, at least it won't be our own guys doing it to us yet again.

134

McCain will not offere up Scalia like nominees or even Roberts like nominees to the SC.  He will offer up a couple of Souters and you will be expected to sit there and take it.  I repeat.  I hate crooked cops more than I hate crooks.

135 So chill with the bug-fuck crazy, conspiratorially-inclined stuff.

That's pretty funny coming from someone who treats McCain-Feingold as the End of the Republic.

The fascists, brownshirts, and conspiracies are all your constructions, davis.  If you return to my speculative post, I outline some historically quite familiar scenarios under which a cynical Democrat could consolidate political power, almost regardless of the effectiveness of her policies.  We have seen examples of this process several times in recent history - we live in its aftermath. FDR had no brownshirts.  Neither did LBJ. The attempts of the former to combat the Depression had the effect of extending and deepening it, even while the country remained incapable of confronting a looming threat from overseas, and he was elected 4 times.  LBJ's Great Society was a massive failure and for a variety of reasons including his failures as war leader, he didn't seek re-election, but his legacy still controls huge segments of government and the economy, along with the massive client constituencies it put in place.  To make matters worse, we now face the prospect of a one-party control of the entire government, potentially including all three branches, and almost certainly to include the legislative and executive.  They won't win everything, though, if a war arises, their political hand will likely be strengthened.

No brownshirts necessary.

Unless you suffer a raging case of McCain Derangement Syndrome, there is no reason to believe that McCain would be more likely than Hillary or Obama to move this country in such a direction - which in the realm of political speech is more likely to be characterized by Feingold-squared than by mere extension of whatever parts of McCain-Feingold continue to survive legal tests.  In every other realm what McCain and the people around him will represent will be a thousand times more accessible to conservative thought and will. 

And neither you nor your fellow MDS victims have answered my initial question on this thread:  How can an electoral rebuke of victory-at-any-price, and a mandate for needless surrender, serve the real, life-and-death interests of our troops and our friends, and of our long- and short-term interests as a nation?

136

(Working from home for awhile.) Hmm ...maybe it's not just a nom de plume.

McCain-Feingold is an actual attack on the First Amendment. A successful one ...in peace time. The first. Against politics (the lifeblood of the Constitution). Completely, utterly, indefensibly unacceptable. And within the historical context, a step toward the Imperial Senate.

So I grant you, I am - and quite proudly so - "bug-fuck crazy" on the point. No First, no point to the Constitution, and that first step toward the death of the Republic (the Romans, too, made the same mistake)...so much for the lack of "demonstrable intent" of John McCain.

...and to illustrate brown-shirts:

The same presumption that makes you believe that Hillary would turn on Al Qaeda or anyone else with murderous glee, if she felt herself threatened, also must force you to accept that she could and likely would turn on her domestic enemies - which she has already identified as a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy - if she felt it served her purposes, and there's much reason to believe that it might. Such an individual would also be likely to ignore foreign threats and other dangers for as long as politically useful, and then to blame the result on the VRWC or anyone else she needed to, even as she adopted policies that would make a responsible war leader, like Bush or perhaps McCain, hesitate on grounds of prudence, humanity, or the long-term interest of the country.

Not very good at this, Hussein? Or just a bit of an STM loss issue, Hussein? Heh.

Moron.

 

137 How can an electoral rebuke of victory-at-any-price, and a mandate for needless surrender, serve the real, life-and-death interests of our troops and our friends, and of our long- and short-term interests as a nation?

I reject the premise that any of this is the inevitable result of the electoral rebuke of John McCain.

138 V the K,

Oh, I see, great. Well, I reject the premise of you rejection.

Good talk.

139 I guess V the K noticed you asserted something without bothering to argue or support it sufficiently to be convincing. Your response is enlightening.

140 It's a question Chrissy, not an assertion. But keep avoiding it. I find that enlightening.

141 reb, when you've been answered several times it stops being cute and amusing to keep claiming people are avoiding you like you've come up with the holy grail of questions. Your support of McCain is noted, your stubborn rejection of his faults is understood. But stop treating everyone who disagrees with you like they are cosmic morons. It's unpolite and unattractive.

142 Actually, Davis,rb is the only one who has addressed the question more or less directly. But even he needed to disagree with the premise of his choosing not my premise as I stated it in #76 and #103.

But as best I can tell, I've only treated you like a moron. And that's because you don't even make an attempt to engage in real discussion, you just throw snark and consensus around. Not that I'm opposed to snark obviously, but I prefer it to be mixed in with actual arguments.

143 No, reb, you treat everyone who disagrees with you with a patronizing contempt that your hero shows us too. I guess we know where your admiration comes from, eh? Just because you don't bother reading the many responses to your weak question doesn't mean people are stumped by it. This isn't a TV show, you don't have the perfect line that makes the audience break out clapping. You're dealing with other intelligent adults here.

144 No, it's just you, Chrissy.

I have nice arguments with people here all the time, and a couple in this thread. I also get into flame wars, but this is AoS HQ.  And you obviously don't read the threads or what I write, as I have an equal amount of contempt for McCain as the next guy. I just don't think he'd be worse than Obama or Hillary!, and I like to argue with people that do. So, get over it and stop jocking me.

145 Thanks Christopher. The fact is, I've stated why I reject the premise several times in this forum, most recently on the previous McCain thread. I don't have the time today to repeat myself.

146 V the K,

Just for the record, you haven't.

But, it's for not. McCain isn't going to get the nomination, and if he does, we'll pick it up then.

147 Just for the record, I did.

Here: http://minx.cc/?blog=86&post=252546#c1779723

And Here: http://minx.cc/?blog=86&post=252546#c1779926

Learn to read, dingus.

148 Ah, no wonder. I read those comments and responded in that thread. I'm talking about the impact of perceptions of a Hillary! win and what she would do before the next 911. #76, #100, and #103 on this thread between davis, rb and myself. I know it's off the script but I'm interested in debating it.

149 We   Need a president who can restore our economy and stop the war, we have to get a president that will help us and not sign up for the heck of it!

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