1

This blog post demonstrates clearly why you, nor anyone, should attempt to blog about subjects of which you have little understanding.

That aside, Huckabee is not a conservative nor electable.

2 Abortion! Queers! Satan!

3 I believe that while ultimate sovereignty belongs to God alone, He delegates authority throughout society to various institutional structures (i.e., churches, businesses, the state, etc.).

Confined to churches, that's pretty much what Mormons believe. Although, we also vote on things. For example, before a person in the church is conferred upon with a calling (even if it's teaching Sunday School) or a leadership position, the ward has to vote on it. But, I thought the Huckster didn't much care for Mormon folk, anyway.

Meanwhile, supporters of the only man who can save America (from the Afro-Zionist-Corporate Conspiracy) still can get no peace.

4

He may not give Trump authority, but he ALLOWS it. 

I believe that nothing happens on this Earth without it being ALLOWED.  I think that is the confusion in Carter's explanation.  Probably by authority, what carter means is that God still has the authority to pull the rug out from under Trump whenever and if he deems it necessary.

5

By the way, that means pulling the rug out from underneath or propping them up.

6

Oh, and he's confusing a couple differnt aspects, as well.  You know, the whole give to Caeser what is Casear' and to the Father what is the Father's, etc. etc.

Basically, nobody has any position of power and deicsion unless it is allowed (ordained) by God, so becaus that is the case you should still respect the authority simply because it is given by God.  The beautiful part about America is that he has given the authority to the people and if the people hand that authority to the wrong people, well, sucks to be us.

7

Gabriel,

Every societal institution derives its authority from G-d via Christ through each individual. A "servant" must serve a "master" faithfully on Earth in order to show via this form of works his faithfulness to G-d. Likewise a "master" must deal faithfully and fairly with a "servant" on Earth in order to show via this form of works his faithfulness to G-d. You can substitute "boss" and "worker" if you like for the business case.

The same is true of husbands and wives, families, churches (the Bride of Christ himself where the churches are properly Christian), businesses incorporated or otherwise, and governments. Governments do derive their just powers from the consent of the governed who exercise their G-d given rights to life, liberty, and property so that said government is just and indeed properly ordained by G-d.

8

To be honest, I'm not even sure what "authority" means in that context, and I'm sure that's keeping me from getting Carter's point.

While I cannot get inside his head, I suspect he might mean "authority" in the sense of "responsibility." The two are closely tied in the Christian worldview. So, as an example, a businessman is placed in a position of authority within his business. This means he is now made responsible for his behavior. Parents, by divine design, have authority (responsibility) for raising their children. And so on.

I don't really disagree with it, but I suspect that he'll go off the rails on his definition of where one authority stops and another begins. A lot of them do that.

9 Hooray!  Free bold text for everyone!

10

@ The Band,

Indeed. Just as one cannot have virtue without freedom to eschew vice, one cannot have authority without responsibility.

11 "He delegates authority throughout society to various institutional structures..."

Holy crap! So much for the personal God concept.

I guess Huckabee and his supporters are just the ones to determine exactly which authority is delegated what power by their version of Him... as long as they become the conduit of His message.

I'm probably misinterpreting his point and maybe making an extrapolation of his fundamentals on what guides/controls what, but that institutional delegation thing scares the bejeesus out of me.

12 In 2001, when conservative Republican lawmakers opposed a higher sales taxes and fees the governor supported, he began calling them “Shiites.” Huckabee’s positions on fiscal policy became indistinguishable from Democrats’ positions. A year later, he openly campaigned against a ballot initiative to remove the sales tax on food and medicine. While he and Rockefeller won re-election in 2002, Sen. Tim Hutchinson didn’t.

From a Bryan post at Hotair.com

13 I will never die.

14

There's a distinction between allowing something and approving of something (or willing something).

 

God allows evil, for example. But it's not like he's pleased with it.

15

So Rudy isn't a conservative and Huck is because he loves families?

God doesn't delegate anything and thanks to the brilliant men who established the system we do not have to answer to any church, religion or god. I am really sick of reading and listening to Christians claim that they are being attacked while they force their religion into the political realm where it does not belong.

16 I will never die. - Dumbass-Eating Monster

Well, you will certainly never starve to death, that's for sure.

17 ...while ultimate sovereignty belongs to God alone, He delegates authority throughout society to various institutional structures ... they still retain the legitimate authority given to them by our Creator.

How we have fallen, taking the Hubris of believing that mankind should have any choice in these appointments to Government and usurping that power from where it obviously, should reside, in God.

So how DARE you oppose the God-Given power of Dictator of Germany that was Hitler.  He was (simply by having that position) obviously ORDAINED BY GOD HIMSELF to hold that position; and only answerable to GOD should he need to be removed. 

World War II was a war against GOD, and trying to take the obvious and righteous power of decision from GOD and put it into the Hands of MEN.

Or did I miss something?  Mankind should subordinate itself to its leaders, who are obviously and self-evidently (by their holding those positions of power) ordained by God, right?  So Hitler was ordained by God, and the war to remove him was illegal, and in fact heretical as a war of man over God?

God is Great, and Heil Hitler?  I think I've covered this argument with enough excrement for now.  If anyone decides to dig it out, I'll take some laxatives and give it another shot.  There's a lot more crap here than I can get into one shovel.

18

I am really sick of reading and listening to Christians claim that they are being attacked while they force their religion into the political realm where it does not belong

You are endowed by the creator with inalienable rights that the government  can't infringe upon.

This is how our Constitutional structure is organized.

It is only viewed that way by Christians. Athesists or Muslims or Paulbots did not found America.

 

19

Jefferson was not a christian.

20

To get to the context of Carter's statement, consider Romans 13:1-7, which begins:

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

21 Here's an outline of what the Catholic Church thinks about civil authority.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02137c.htm

22

Some more along those lines from I Peter 2:

13Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right....
16Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

23

"It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics."

Robert A. Heinlein -Time Enough for Love (1973)

Truer words have never been written about the relationship between religion and politics.

24 Hey all you fairies, welcome to the pin-head hoedown.

25

See Romans 13:

 

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

26 No one, least of all Carter, is trying to argue the divine right of Huckabee or anyone else to be king or president.

He is discussing the idea that God is sovereign and in ultimate control. Through that sovereignty, God grants powers to governments and others throughout society.

This does not mean that God gets a kick out of Donald Trump's wig sliding as he fires someone. It simply means that our society has people in authority in various forms and that ultimately all that authority coms form God - government, business, family, etc.

Of course, you get some into the Calvinistic arguments and theology, but it this is fairly standard evangelical doctrine. As someone already mentioned, it wasn't a foreign concept to the founders either - endowed with inalienable rights from our Creator and all that.

Having said all that I'm neither a Huckabee guy or a Calvinist, I just dislike this whole "scary evangelical" bit that seems to be gathering steam with too many conservatives.

27 God is Great, and Heil Hitler?

Isn't there some "law" that says you just lost whatever argument you were having?

28 Well, there's a law that says such references will be made in a heated discussion of a certain length. But it's descriptive rather the proscriptive.

29

Jefferson was not a christian.

George Washington said this:

I consider it an indispensable duty to close this last solemn act of my Official life, by commending the Interests of our dearest Country to the protection of Almighty God, and those who have the superintendence of them, to his holy keeping.

Having now finished the work assigned me, I retire from the great theatre of Action; and bidding an Affectionate farewell to this August body under whose orders I have so long acted, I here offer my Commission, and take my leave of all the employments of public life.

30 What Heinlein omits (or fails to underscore) is that that applies to ANY group of true believers, including political ones.

When religion gets out of hand, government can rein it in. Who reins in government? Used to be the Church. Now who?

31

Jay, the US isn't a christian nation and many of the people who set it up were non-believers (Jefferson, Franklin etc). They were smart enough to realize that religion should be left out of politics.

 

Your original comment was taken from Jefferson. You said it was a christian attitude and it clearly isn't because Jefferson wasn't a christian. Quote war!!1!

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.

In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.

I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.

Jefferson>Washington

 

 

 

32 I believe that while ultimate sovereignty belongs to God alone, He delegates authority throughout society to various institutional structures (i.e., churches, businesses, the state, etc.). Naturally, these institutions are not immune to the effects of sin or human depravity but they still retain the legitimate authority given to them by our Creator.

This is either very poorly constructed, or it is... not from any Protestant tradition I'm familiar with.

It's difficult to determine what he means by "delegate", as the omnipotent God would have no need - and in some theological schools of thought, no ability - to truly "delegate" authority. Perhaps he means grant? Or assign? Or ordain? Being a Calvinist, I would have gone with "ordain" - suggesting a permissiveness, but not necessarily an approval.

The other curious word he uses that is difficult to understand is "legitimate". What could he possibly mean by "legitimate"? The word implies rightful and lawful and good, but he surely cannot be including such rulers as Nero, Caligula, and Stalin, and Mao under this definition. And why even use the word "legitimate" I wonder... By his usage I would conclude that any and all authority is inherently "legitimate", so using the word at all makes it redundant. There is no "illegitimate" authority in his model.

This belief would seem to run counter to a couple of very conspicuous Christian events: namely, the perseverance of Christians under Nero, the fight against Islamic rulers during the Crusades, and of course we cannot forget the big elephant in the room, the rejection of Papal authority during the Reformation.

33

Into the mind of a Huckabee supporter:

This is from the Hot Air comments and it may be some sort of troll or moby, but I could see why he would like Huckabee if it is serious.

"Winning the war oon terror is my #1 issue.

I think America is becoming a weak,secular and morally bankrupt country.

How will we like this defeat global jihad?

The answer is we won’t.

History provides our solution. The way we defeated the islamic invasion last time was… Europe experienced a major revival and the church launched the Holy Crusades.

The Holy Crusades were the only thing that prevented an islamic conquest of Europe! What we need more than anything is a major Revival in America. Mike Huckabee is the man for the job."

History provides the answers.

34

I was a closet Deist, but it isn't germain.  Most of the founders and framers were Christians.  It wasn't a crime.

The first amendment was written by Fisher Ames, a Congregationalist minister.  If you want to play "which framers were Christians and which weren't?", I can hold my breath underwater longer than you can.

35

The Holy Crusades were the only thing that prevented an islamic conquest of Europe!

This is a statement of fact, though I don't look forward to a repeat of that particular history.

36 So we meet again.

37

Hey sucka.  Yeah, you embraced the faith late in life, din ya?

Good move.  Ducking would have been a good move too.

38 The thing is, why is it that only a Christian crusade, with all of the baggage any crusade would bring, particularly a religious one... why repeat with a crusade? It may have worked in its hey day but it's certainly not obligatory that we repeat it. We can stiffen our spines without such stuff. Meanwhile, we don't have to get steamrolled by this particular holy roller's whims.

39 Thomas, I don't really care which founders were christian. The country is a product of the enlightenment, but I didn't really need to tell you that did I.

40 The other thing that Heinlein misses in that quote is that the whole thing works in the other direction also:  government will attempt to subvert and suborn religion (see England, Church of) if it is given the opportunity and/or destroy religion if it cannot (see Marx, Karl).

41

Hey, you brought it up, not me.  Except you mischaracterized me.

To say "this country is the product of enlightenment" is the same as saying "cake is the product of wheat".  It's part of the story, it ain't all of the story.

42 So the answer considering Heinlein's point (and the reverse WRT religion checking government) is not to grant either too much authority, i.e. preserve in the individual born rights that are ordained by mere existence and without dependence on any particular central authority to grant it... even "God." Yes, the founding fathers used a  Christian God because of heritage, but if you cut to the core of their separation of church and state and any tangents we might read into the nation's founding, it seems to me that the freest form in the pursuit of happiness is to let individuals decide for themselves exactly what is God and to what degree they individually or collectively will yield to that creation - if one yields anything at all. Carter, I think, would have us believe that his version of God, the classical Christian one, dictates central authority and its delegation to proper controlling interests. I reject such a premise. Each of us was born free of such an encumbrance and each of us gets to decide in what collective we'll participate and to what degree we'll concede our personal freedoms... and it doesn't have to be Deist.

43 Actually Thomas, as a diest you don't think the good lord is involved in our affairs. You are not endowed.

44

bleh, I could quote you any number of things written by Jefferson that appear Christian, but more importantly, Jefferson attended an Anglican church, gave money to the church and missionary services, and attended worship services while in office.  That's important because Jefferson also said, "I have ever judged the religion of others by their lives . . . for it is in our lives and not from our words, that our religion must be read."

After leaving office, Jefferson appeared to harden against religion.  You can attribute that to wisdom, or political expediency, or whatever, but most of the anti-Christian and anti-religion quotes attributed to Jefferson come well after he framed the Constitution and served as President.

As for whether his early life was Christian or Deist or "Hindoo" or "Muhammedan," he probably was combination of all of the above:

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion . . . or in anything else."

But honestly, Jefferson probably would have thought this entire debate is foolish:

"Say nothing of my religion.  It is known to my God and myself alone."

"I have ever thought religion a concern purely between our God and our consciences for which we were accountable to him, and not to the priests."

Well said, Mr. Jefferson.

45 Hell I don't know AH, would you ask Him for me?

46 Comish, Jefferson was clear enough, the US is not a christian nation. I would love it if people kept their religion between themselves and their god(s), but that is not happening.

47

TJ, I'm sorry about the last comment, but I never could resist a dick joke. Any favorites in the upcoming election? I'm leaning towards Romney and everybody, as always, has claimed you as the patron saint of their movement.

48

Gabriel, Fred has already quoted the relevant portions of Romans, and slatz hit 1 Peter, so I won't rehash those.  But to answer your concerns, you've got to look at the parts that talk about paying what you owe and "proper" respect.  Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. 

I've always read those as primarily dealing with envy, lust for power, and not getting worked up about the fact that the boss at your bakery is uncircumcised.  But there's certainly an element present in all of those about submitting to "proper" authority, paying only what's owed, etc.  In other words, you don't have to submit to unjust or overreaching authority.  You've only got to look at Moses and David to figure out that Christianity isn't all about prostrating yourself to authority.  God may have put that institution in place, but when the institution overreaches or becomes unjust, then we Christians can be His instruments in taking that institution out, Chuck Norris-style.

I imagine Carter was trying to address that when he talked about human weakness in the authorities appointed by God, but it's a delicate point that he tried to make in short form.  It almost certainly could have been made more eloquently, but Carter was probably speaking from the point of view of someone who thinks all Christians already know all this stuff.

49

Ain't no thing AH (how's the hip?).

As far as the race is going, anybody except that sonofabitch Adams.

 

comish, thanks for buying my book!

50

bleh, I think you're overstating your case.  Jefferson wasn't saying the US is not "Christian" influenced or that Christianity should play no role in governing.  In fact, even people who think Jefferson was a Deist say he revered and followed the moral ethos of Jesus Christ in his own (personal and political) life. 

Jefferson was saying that the government shouldn't force people to be Christians.  After all, the guy did sign bills paying to build churches and missionaries in Indian lands.  And the guy attended Christian worship services in the capital.

I don't mean to imply that I've got all the answers, or even that Jefferson was necessarily right on how the government should be instituted and operate.  But it's a complicated issue.

51

Tommy, no sweat.  And I appreciate you including the stuff about pirates.  But frankly, I could have used a few more ripped bodices.

Now tell the truth, did you bet on black?

52

dude, I doubled down.

(new hash, I'm home now)

53

Comish, it's not that I'm overstating, it's that I am not being clear. At the begining of the thread somebody made a comment about the country being founded by christians not agnostics, muslims and paulbots.

My point was that the US was never a christian nation. It wasn't intended to be one and it isn't a good idea to "take it back" for jesus. You are right about Jefferson and christian morality (Jefferson bible etc) and the majority of our presidents have been christians, but the US has never been a christian nation. The republican party may be a christian party this time next year, but the affairs of the churches and state must be kept seperate. People are intentionally crossing that line and it isn't a good thing imo.

54 "In fact, even people who think Jefferson was a Deist say he revered and followed the moral ethos of Jesus Christ in his own (personal and political) life." You mean Jesus was into nailing black chicks? Nice.

55 Ok, I guess I'm an idiot. Why do the line breaks in my posts disappear?

56 Henry,
It might be that you need to enable javascript for minx.cc. (if your using some kind of blocker)

57 you're

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