1 When  I hear Huckabee interviewed, he seems to say the right things about illegal immigration and other key issues. He also has a slick way of explaining why he opposes school choice (because it would lead to federal control of private schools) and why he had to raise taxes. You almost believe him, until you remember he's an Arkansas politician.

Romney's main problem that he doesn't pitch bullsh*t as effectively as Huckabee or McCain does.

2 Into the mind of a Huckabee supporter:

Everyone is against Huck because he is God's anointed candidate.
All criticism of him is tribulation, meant to temper the steel of his holy armor.
It only proves that he is the redeemer!
Those of you that question him are tools of Satan.
We shall overcome!
Hallelujah!

3 Anyone who uses the word "sheeple" without sarcasm is, by definition, a jagoff.

4

... and as Republicans become more familiar with Huckabee, his numbers will start sinking.

amen.

5 That Federalism thing is going to get him in big trouble if the quote ever gets widely distributed. If there's one thing Southern Evangelicals are hopping mad about, at least here in SC, it's that so few people realize the damage that was done to the Constitution in the 1860s.

6 Log Cabin. Yep. Inside the mind of a Huckabee supporter is not anywhere I care to be. I will vote dem for POTUS if the evangelicals and the amnestias manage to get the nomination for Huckabee the way they did it for GW Bush in 2000.

7

I saw him described as "Christian Socialist" the other day. That fits. From the wickipedia entry

Socialism which means love, cooperation and brotherhood in every department of human affairs, is the only outward expression of a Christian's faith. I am firmly convinced that whether they know it or not, all who approve and accept competition and struggle against each other as the means whereby we gain our daily bread, do indeed betray and make of no effect the "will of God."

He doesn't call it socialism, but the rest of it could be, and possibly is, from one of his stump speeches.

8 But even if Huckabee is a flawed messenger, he is right about one thing. There is a serious split in the party between the elites and the base. The Republican Party is being run by a cadre of people who don't have the slightest clue what life is like for an average American.

Wouldn't you love to see an interviewer challenge John McCain by saying, "Senator, I want you to speak into the camera and address those working class American families whose schools are overcrowded, whose hospital trauma centers are closing, and whose wages are being suppressed by the uncontrolled influx of illegal aliens." Wouldn't you love to see Romney challenged with, "Governor, how can a man of your wealth and privilege relate to the challenges of an average working family?" Wouldn't you love to hear Giuliani challenged with, "Mr. Mayor, you've accused pro-lifers of wanting to throw women in jail for having abortions. Do you really think the majority of pro-lifers feel that way?"

The media will never ask those questions, because the media and the politicians are both part of the elite establishment. None of them has a clue what its like in the heartland, just trying to get by and raise a decent family.

9 I have a more important question to pose to you morons:  Marv Albert.  I vaguely remember a manager of a hotel complaining that when she went to his room after he had called to say the fax machine was not working, he came out of the bathroom in garter belts, jumped on her back, and began biting her. She managed to fight him off and left.  When I googled him, I only found that his ex-gf had accused him of raping her and no mention of the hotel manager.

Anyone remember the facts to Marv's secret lingerie fetish? Come on, you pervs! Don't let me down!

10 V the K OK, I'll agree with that. However, Huckabee is the perfect candidate for those elites. He will keep the borders open to feed corporate profits and get support from the idiot base by flogging their idiot social conservative issues like the "defense" of marriage and abortion.

11 Funky, that's what puts me off Huckabee. He's a populist con-man. He has properly read the disconnect between the elites and the base, but his prescriptions are pure snake-oil.

12

Wouldn't you love to see Romney challenged with, "Governor, how can a man of your wealth and privilege relate to the challenges of an average working family?"

No, I wouldn't. I'm not into socialist class warfare and you shouldn't be either.

13 The mind of a Huckabee supportor?

You mean simpletons and fools?   I do not care to delve into their minds.

14 Anyone who uses the word "sheeple" without sarcasm is, by definition, a jagoff.

Well you could also be referring to the offspring of some  farmer-livestock  couplings in the most retarded state of Iowa.


Yeah, Iowa.  I'm  talking about you you freaking inbred retards!

15 The Band,
Your 1860s comment above disturbs me greatly.

Generally,
I will not vote for Huckabee.

16

Carter coyly responds that "federalism is not inherently conservative."

That would be news to Edmund Burke.  Is Carter familiar with the term, "little platoons?"

17 His answer: "The fact is the fuel tax was a part of a road program that was voted on by the people of my state by an 80 percent margin. Most every politician I know would love to be with 80 percent of the people, because we needed roads. We needed them desperately."

This is what bothers me about Huck; he envelopes his record in a cloud of ambiguity.  The fuel tax was the road program and the part that "80%" (108,000  or some 12% of the electorate) supported was the bond issue wherein Arkansas could front end the work that the taxes already, in effect, would pay for.  If it hadn't passed, the fuel tax would still be in effect.  The bond vote, part of the fuel tax increase law passed by the state in March 1999 (IIRC) with the state wide bond vote set mid-June, a mere 3+ months later and at the end of the school year .  Who the hell votes statewide in June and in an off voting year?  Crummy sakes, there's probably 108,000 ppl alone in Arkansas in related road construction fields of work and not need to count a "get out the government workers vote" effort.

18 "Governor, how can a man of your wealth and privilege relate to the challenges of an average working family?"


I dunno.   FDR seemed to be able to strike a connection with them as I recall.

19

Your 1860s comment above disturbs me greatly.

I'm sorry for your discomfort. I hope it passes soon.

20 You've been Insta-linked buddy!

21 They are called retards for Christ.

22 You've been Insta-linked buddy!

Good! Maybe, someone will now post the answer to my Marv Albert question.

23 No, I wouldn't. I'm not into socialist class warfare and you shouldn't be either.

Nor am I, but I think the best prophylactic against socialist class warfare is to have a political class that appreciates the struggles of the working class.

24 Don't blame "The Band" because he voted for Jeff Davis.

(See #5 above if you don't get this comment.)

25 Nom, I'm with you on the #5 comment. I saw it and said, "Woah."

26

Don't blame "The Band" because he voted for Jeff Davis.

Heh, you'd be surprised at the number of cars around here that do, in fact, display that very bumper sticker. I'm not joking.

27

"Maybe, someone will now post the answer to my Marv Albert question."

You mean just the stuff that came out in court about how he liked lingerie?  I don't know the specifics.  But, my guess is pink lacey teddies, sheer maribou nighties and leather gauntlets. 

28 I'm aware of the bumper sticker.
So long as you're aware that I find you and your view point despicable I think we'll call it even.

29

Huckabee talks about being the true conservative in the race, but his judicial appointees consistently practice judicial activism and undermine constitutional safeguards.

 

The Arkansas legislature passed a clear, unequivocal law against paternity fraud, which is where a man is deceived into paying child support for a child that is not his, and then forced by the courts to continue making such payments even after DNA evidence shows the child is not his.  (As newspapers like USA Today noted).

 

In a fit of judicial activism, Huckabee's appointees to the Arkansas Supreme Court gutted the paternity-fraud law passed by the legislature and declared it didn't mean what it unequivocally said -- over a dissent largely by Clinton appointees! See Martin v. Pierce (2007). They forced a man to pay child support for a child who was not his, according to DNA evidence, and thus rewarded the adultery of the man's ex-wife.

 

In terms of judicial appointments, Huckabee isn't any better than Clinton. Indeed, in terms of fairness, his judicial appointees may be even worse.

 

His favorite judge, Lavenski Smith, ruled against the First Amendment in Frye v. Kansas City Mo. Police Department,375 F.3d 785 (8thCir. 2004), Judge Smith joined the other liberals on the court in voting to allow police to arrest peaceful anti-abortion demonstrators assembled on public property and to effectively censor their anti-abortion signs, with impunity, if the police deemed the contents of the signs to be offensive and thus distracting to passersby.

 

Huckabee says Smith "embodies the kind of person we need on the bench.”  Huckabee’s book says that Smith belongs on the Supreme Court.

 

What makes an outstanding judge for Huckabee? Judicial activism and disregard for the constitution, apparently.

Even the liberal Bench and Bar of Minnesota, the official publication of the Minnesota State Bar Association, said that Judge Smith was “slightly left of center” on the court to which he was appointed by Huckabee (the Arkansas Supreme Court).  As Matthew Friendly has observed, Smith is left of center on the court on which he sits now (the 8^th Circuit).

30

So long as you're aware that I find you and your view point despicable I think we'll call it even.

Who said it was my viewpoint?

31 You mean just the stuff that came out in court about how he liked lingerie?  I don't know the specifics.  But, my guess is pink lacey teddies, sheer maribou nighties and leather gauntlets.

No. The incident with the ex – his handlers have been able to write off  as the result of a woman scorn (he did plead guilty to lesser charges). The hotel manager, who he had no relationship with, also confirmed he jumped her, tried to sexually assault her, bit her, and was wearing lingerie at the time.  This pretty much screwed him, figuratively. However, there is no mention of it on the internet. He or his friends managed to erase it. I’m amazed they could do that since she testified at his trial.

And for the record, she said he was wearing a lacy black teddy and garter belt with a little pink rose in front.

p.s.:  New comment thingy is getting ready to blow.

32

"He will keep the borders open to feed corporate profits and get support from the idiot base by flogging their idiot social conservative issues like the "defense" of marriage and abortion."

Erm.  What?

Obviously from previous posts I'm strongly against Huckabee - but I do resent having those issues described as those belonging to an "idiot", and if you're wondering -why- they might be driven away to someone like Huckabee, that kind of attitude toward them is probably a -big- reason why.

Qwinn

33 That would be news to Edmund Burke.  Is Carter familiar with the term, "little platoons?"-- paul zummo at January 07, 2008 11:26 AM

I'm not familiar with that.  I will grant Carter his point, in abstract, but he is definitely wrong in the American Conservatism sense, which is informed by a long history dating back further than Burke in it's fighting, and winning, against the monarchist faction.

And I appreciate Malor's use of "coyly".  Conservatism holds to time tested  principles but also take on the best of what is offered or found, and so, should not be seen as against change but just skeptical of change. These labels -- liberal and conservative -- are often distracting.  Those interested in liberty, of both the conservative and liberal frame of mind fought for such things as freedom of speech, religious freedom, and representative government.

Such things, when won, become become principles to hold fast. Carter can only use the "federalism isn't inherently conservative" in the practical sense if he sees federalism as a principle that hasn't been rigorously tested and found to be the "worst, except for all the others" and has found a new principle which serves better -- in which case he ought to lay out what it is -- or, as I think (and Malor suggests by the "coyly"), he prefers governmental socialism.

I'll take door number two.  Christianity is inherently socialistic and that I think that is what informs his comment.  The difference between Christianity's socialism and governmental socialism, however, is that the former is chosen freely and applied individually.  The later is merely tyranny.  There is a reason America, as it is today, was founded -- the Founders believed in the first and saw, lived, the havoc inherent in the latter and sought to prevent it via the Constitution.

Carter either confuses the two, or he dislikes what the Founders created.

34

Hey guys-

I know none of us here are terribly pleased with Huckabee, but let's back off on calling evangelical voters the same shit that Carter called everyone- those voters are reacting to different stimuli than we are, but they're going to need to be convinced of the error of their ways- not beaten over the head until they cry uncle.

Many will come over from Insty-land (go Vols)... I just ask that you restrain your venom a bit, for the good of making the point and underscoring just how disingenuous the Huckabee campaign is.

tmi3rd

35

Dusty,

I would disagree that Christianity is "inherently socialist", especially if you're defining personal charity as "socialist".  Personal charity is -essential- to a functioning conservative worldview.  The conservative model proposes that the personal charity of it's citizens can and should be sufficient to ameliorate the injustices of the world.  It is therefore anti-socialist at it's core.  Socialism to me is defined as a collective and government sponsored solution.  The way you're defining it to me sounds like you're defining "socialism" as "kindness", and I don't think that's either useful or bound to win many converts away from it.

Qwinn

36

And very well put, Dusty.

tmi3rd

37

Nor am I, but I think the best prophylactic against socialist class warfare is to have a political class that appreciates the struggles of the working class.

But you see, by your language, you're already dividing people into classes. That's giving away territory right from the start, in my opinion.

38

I would disagree that Christianity is "inherently socialist", especially if you're defining personal charity as "socialist".  Personal charity is -essential- to a functioning conservative worldview.

Don't misunderstand me - I am not trying to tie "good Christianity" to political affiliation, but it has always been my view that rule number one for being a good Christian and a good conservative are one and the same:  Make certain to take care of yourself so that nobody else has to.  While I would hope I would share with others more needy even if I were struggling, personal charity flows much more readily from a base of material stability.

39

Qwinn-

If I may tag on for a second- I think you're absolutely right in that Christianity at its core is not a socialistic mindset- as you said, it calls for voluntary kindness. And, Dusty, I think that you're right in that applied governmentally (see Christian Democrats in Europe), Christianity as a governmental practice would be applied socialistically.

Huckabee departs basic conservatism here- his implications are that he would apply Christianity selectively, but pointedly; something that even religious conservatives (like myself) are stridently opposed to, and something that most non-conservative voters are forcibly opposed to.

To restate the understood axiom- it is a foundation of conservatism that generosity is a decision to be made by the individual- to be encouraged, without a doubt, but not forced upon by government.

A good discussion to be had, to be certain.

tmi3rd

40 By your language, you're already dividing people into classes. That's giving away territory right from the start, in my opinion.

It's not my language that divides people into classes. My language acknowledges that classes exist. The Gores, Kennedies, Romneys, and Bushes belong to a completely different class than most of us. No way would any of the leading figures of these families gotten to where they are absent the wealth and status they inherited from their forebears. And if you look at how many senate and house seats, how many governorships, and how many mayor's offices have become hereditary, you see how we have developed a political class in this country.

So to is the media part of an elite. Chris Wallace, Chris Cuomo, Pinch Sulzberger, Anderson Cooper and others all benefited from wealth and connections unavailable to the children of the middle class. Getting a position with a major news organization usually requires working an unpaid internship in an expensive city like New York, Washington, or Los Angeles. Unless you have a family with enough money to support you while you do that, you're kind of S.O.L.

41 I think that there's one thing to raise "sin taxes" because you hate deficits, and there's a completely different thing to raise them because you hate sin. I believe Mr. Reagan went along with increases in sin taxes for the first and not the second. Mr. Reagan was many good things, but he didn't particularly strike me as someone who hated sin--at least the sins commonly enumerated by my Baptist coreligionists. I think we should be careful when debating the Huckabee candidacy. It is easy to become emotionally involved in identity politics. I'm a Baptist and I don't think you're picking on one of my own when you critique Mr. Huckabee's record. I think that Mr. Carter's rhetoric has suffered due to emotional attachment to "his man." The question is whether Mr. Huckabee has grown or shrunk government on his watch. If the former, he's not a Conservative.

42 Qwinn, we will have to disagree on this point, perhaps. The folks who I would call idiots are the ones who would vote for the Huckster and say he's the only "true conservative" in the primary based solely on his support for banning abortion and any governmental recognition of homosexual partnerships at the federal level.

Open borders, and special financial perks for illegals? Yep.
Clemency for murderers/rapists if they can fool some prison chaplain into believing they're "saved?" Yep.
Raising taxes? Yep.
Believing in federal government fatty food regulation? Yep.
I could go on, but you already know the litany.

43 In the immigration section, Huck presents the hoary false choice between MassDeportations and amnesty, without mentioning plans such as that from Thompson: enforce the laws to encourage illegal aliens to go home.

As for a fence all along the border, I only support fencing in parts where it makes sense. The better "fence" would be to discredit those leaders who support illegal activity. Without those leaders advocating for it, there will be much less of it.

Search for his name at my site for some of his past questionable statements and actions on this topic.

44

I'm not familiar with that. 

In addition to stressing the importance of history and tradition, Burke emphasized the importance of localism and the near community.  Here's the exact passage from the Reflections:

To be attached to the subdivision, to love the little platoon we belong to in society, is the first principle (the germ as it were) of public affections. It is the first link in the series by which we proceed toward a love to our country and to mankind. The interest of that portion of social arrangement is a trust in the hands of all those who compose it; and as none but bad men would justify it in abuse, none but traitors would barter it away for their own personal advantage.

So, what you say about federalism being important for consevatism in the American context is true, I would also argue that federalism is inherently a conservative value in any context.  We are attached first to our local community, and our federalist arrangement bolsters this sense of localism.  The more our decisions are made in Washington rather than at the state or local level, the more we destroy this concept, and the more distant we make the government from the people.  So I'd say Carter is way, way off in his pronouncement that federalism is not inherently conservative.  On the contrary, it is one of the essences of conservatism.

45

It's not my language that divides people into classes. My language acknowledges that classes exist.

Then that's where our disagreement lies. I disagree that there are classes in America, at least in the sense that "class" is normally used.

The Gores, Kennedies, Romneys, and Bushes belong to a completely different class than most of us. No way would any of the leading figures of these families gotten to where they are absent the wealth and status they inherited from their forebears.

No, I don't think so. Do you think Paris Hilton could be elected President?

And if you look at how many senate and house seats, how many governorships, and how many mayor's offices have become hereditary, you see how we have developed a political class in this country.

I don't see a whole lot of that, but even if true, how many small businesses have become hereditary? If people are qualified for a position, it doesn't really matter how they became qualified. And there are a lot of people in politics who came from other professions. I'm fairly certain their numbers outweigh those who have parents "in the business." We have a very upward mobile society. Far more upwardly mobile than I would have predicted as possible, if I hadn't lived in such a society.

So to is the media part of an elite. Chris Wallace, Chris Cuomo, Pinch Sulzberger, Anderson Cooper and others all benefited from wealth and connections unavailable to the children of the middle class. Getting a position with a major news organization usually requires working an unpaid internship in an expensive city like New York, Washington, or Los Angeles. Unless you have a family with enough money to support you while you do that, you're kind of S.O.L.

Many people work their way up from local markets. But let's take a look at the cases you cite. Chris Wallace strikes me as a very fine journalist, from what I've seen of him. In fact, I think he's much more qualified than his father. I've never heard of Chris Cuomo, so he can't be all that much of a big-wig. Pinch Sulzberger has single-handedly destroyed a once-unstoppable media giant. I know very little of Anderson Cooper, but I've heard he's a fairly decent reporter.

I think there's plenty of opportunity in America and that hard work and skill counts for more than anything else. I think you're succumbing to a negativity that is, unfortunately, all too common in the greatest, wealthiest, and most successful nation in history. Buck up!

46

funky chicken,

I don't disagree with what you said in your last post.  I agree that Huckabee is not conservative on any of those other issues, and I agree that just being a social conservative doesn't make someone a "total" conservative.

That's not how the post I adressed read, however.  What you basically said is that anyone who cares about "idiot social conservative issues" is, in fact, an idiot. 

I am conservative on issues like immigration -and- taxes -and- clemencies -and- anti-nanny-statism -and- abortion -and- marriage.  I never see  conservatives who prioritize the last two calling people who prioritize the first four "idiots", but I'm sure that if they did, and repeatedly, you'd get pretty antagonistic and not want to have anything more to do with them.  Flip that around, and I think you'll see why people who -would- be naturally conservative on those first four points start to support Huckabee and care less and less about the first four points, because people who prioritize those points treat them with such disrespect.

Qwinn

47 Tech question: on my mac, I get right in to the new comments thingy. On my pc, crashola started a couple of minutes ago. any idea why? Or was it just timing?

48

First of all Iowa was a caucus it was not a primary were people voted and the turn out was historically low just look at the numbers, second there is this bit of imbicility:

That makes more sense than trying to deport 12 million people or build a 700 million, ehr...700 billion dollar fence, whatever it's going to cost."

The Huckster

Uh yes we can deport them we can have them deport themselves we could solve illegal immigration tomorrow if the congress would get off their collective asses and pass a law that says if you hire an illegal you lose your business license, second offense you go to club Fed and pay a fine big enough to bankrupt you it is working in Arizona and it can work on a national level no jobs no illegals don't even need a fence.

I got news for all the Hucksters out there the Huckabust has already started he did not win Wyoming and he is not going to win NH either as I stated Iowa meant nothing.

49 Federalism is merely one way of arranging political power it is by no means the only (eg. confederation), thus it is not in itself "inherently" conservative.  Doubtless, there are other power arrangements inducisive of more conservative and less conservative body politics.

50 If 11 million citizens refused to pay taxes, would the IRS have any problem finding them and prosecuting them?

51

"First of all Iowa was a caucus it was not a primary were people voted and the turn out was historically low just look at the numbers, second there is this bit of imbicility:"

Correction.  "Just looking at the numbers" reveals that the turnout for this caucus was -not- historically low by any means, it was a great deal higher than in 2000 and 2004 if I remember correctly.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22494680/

Qwinn

52

Federalism is merely one way of arranging political power it is by no means the only (eg. confederation), thus it is not in itself "inherently" conservative.  Doubtless, there are other power arrangements inducisive of more conservative and less conservative body politics.

This is true in a sense, but I believe that federalism, because it allows for greater local control of governmental policy, is a great tool for getting at what would be a truly conservative form of government.  It may not be the only way of arranging governmental power that satisfies conservative philosophy, but it is in and of itself a conservative form of government.

53 Instalanche! Gabe was mentioned by name by his Hehness.

54 Local control in Sweden (about the population of the state of Georgia)  has not led to a conservative body politic.

55 [Qwinn at January 07, 2008 12:39 PM]

I know that my comment is too brief to do the subject justice and suspected that that point might elicit disagreement.  But I did say socialistic, not socialist, and I meant it in the broadest sense and not purely in the way it is used in the political sphere.  And is it not?

Anyway, I'll just appear to be wandering unless I write ten times as much.  When you go deep down into Christian principle, it's essence, it is individualistic.  It's base is free choice.  So, in that, I agree with you.  But when the choice is made, it is socialistic in the sense it's a community built on a particular societal way of life.  That's is what I mean by Christianity being inherently socialistic.

Does that clarify at all?

56 Dusty, I think "communal" might be a better word than "socialistic." It has fewer negative associations.

57 The premier example of Republican Socialism is the Drug War. Price supports for criminals and terrorists.

Republican Socialism is all about cultural socialism. The government should control the culture. The National Socialist were big on that too.

58

Socialism is bad enough without dragging ancient scriptures into it.

 

Gabe, you should post a link to the thread where the Evangelic guy posted an apology for spreading rumors about Romney the day after the caucus. Everyone in the thread is praising the douchebag for repenting like a good Christian the day after his little rumor supposedly did its damage. It was a fine example of one of the most obnoxious christian traits I have seen.   

59

bleh,

I missed that bit.  But then, I'm -still- waiting for an apology for the rumors about Fred dropping out and endorsing McCain unless he made a "strong third" showing in Iowa, and that rumor is -still- doing damage, so I wouldn't get too upset about poor Romney.

Qwinn

60

Qwinn, I haven't read anything that said Romney did it, but I would bet he did and it seems like that's the way he is going to campaign. I don't think it will work in the end and I suspect that played a big part in his loss in Iowa. 

I was talking about the Rumor Control thread at Evangelical Outpost. It wasn't the rumor that annoyed me, this is political after all, but the pious bullshit that followed. If people spread rumors that is one thing, but don't act like you are doing anybody a favor by being "sorry" for doing it.

1. Spread rumor

2. Wait until rumor no longer serves its purpose

3. Repent.

61  Don't worry bleh, I'm not through with Joe Carter. And yes, the "devastating" rumor that he spread and then repented over was unveiled today. It's a book attempting to "swiftboat" Romney. Everyone blinked and missed it. Whoever is running the publisher's PR division deserves a raise, though. The book got national attention because Huckabee staffers pimped it as the end of Romney's campaign.

62

Speaking as an evangelical who considers himself a general all-around conservative, I must say that I find Huckabee repugnant. I have no doubts about his faith, but the way he applies it smacks of the "Social Gospel" in vogue in main mainstream English and European churches: just do good works to get into heaven, no discussion of grace or faith, just try to fix all the problems of the world on your own.

The problem is that the solutions of the "social gospel" are liberal because the onus of fixing things is thrust entirely on people, and God is forgotten. Also, "social gospel"-ism tries to apply what I view as the perfect law of God to an imperfect world. God's law works because he is God, but when man applies it, we have problems.

Case in point, his issue of giving pardons to criminals. Christianity calls for people to love their neighbor and to be forgiving, but it also tells them to obey the gov't, which cannot be forgiving because the people they are dealing with are imperfect and the administrators of justice themselves are imperfect. Becuase of this, society cannot "forgive" a law-breaker the way an individual can forgive a personal affront.

If this was a perfect world, the lawbreaker would not exist, and there would be no need for man's law, and in a slightly less than perfect world, the lawbreaker would be driven by remorse to make resitution of his own will (ideally).

The problem, again, is that this is not a perfect world, in this broken world, the law is an eye for an eye, wrongdoing must be met with stern punishment to deter or remove a lawbreaker from society.

In foreign policy, it is also eye for an eye, if a country attacks you, it is unwise to turn the other cheek and let them run roughshod over you. A gov't who did this would be in my view abandoning their God-given responsibility to protect their people. Also, foreign policy mirrors the Hobbesian view: "nasty, brutish, and short", alliances are made when it is convenient, and are broken when they are no longer so, or when one party acts against the other's interests (see the First Gulf War).

Scripture calls Christians (like Huckabee and myself) to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves. Huckabee is the latter, perhaps, but he is certainly not the former. He lacks the discernment needed to lead in an imperfect world, perhaps because he, like other liberals, is fixated on the future utopia they want to create here on earth.

In this utopia, conveniently enough, Israel does not exist and the US abrogates its self-rule and power to fit into a political "global community", and where capitalism is shelved for feel-good socialist mantras that, as Churchill said, merely lead to "an equal sharing of misery".

As an evangelical, I dislike Giuliani, but I would vote for him over, say Huckabee because Huckabee is just not the man for the job.

That said, I'm still voting for Thompson in the primaries, if he's still around (Yes, he has his problems, but overall I like him best)

63 I'm right there with ya, Boonofnoobery. Unfortunately, American "Christianity" is extremely shallow and very few people are taught doctrine or Church History in any significant way.

64 Qwinn, if you don't think Christianity is inherently socialist, I suggest you open a Bible. For example, we have at least one clear description of the failure of Communism under optimal conditions. I refer, of course, to the Book of Acts, 4:32 - 5:11, Ananias and Sephira. NewLiving translation.

1. There is no doubt that they are practicing communism:"All the believers were of one heart and mind, and they felt that what they owned was not their own; they shared everything they had...There was no poverty among them, because people who owned land or houses sold them, and brought the money to the apostles to give to others in need." From each according to his means, to each according to his need --- Marx would have been proud to call them brother.

2. They had as close to an incorruptible body of rulers as possible, who were proving their uprightness with miracles every day.

3. And they had pretty close to the ultimate Auditor; when Ananais and Sephira try to cheat the system, Peter knows about it instantly, and the punishment is swift and sure: the cheaters are struck dead on the spot.

And yet there were still cheaters, the apostles couldn't hold it together for very long, and none of the other churches outside Jerusalem seem to have even tried it. If the 12 Apostles backed up by God couldn't make communism work, how in the h*ll would any lesser mortals have a shot?? However, there was  and is nothing in Christian doctrine that conflicts with Communism the economic philosophy, and a lot that endorses it.

65

It's all relative, isn't it?  Sure, Huckabee is pretty liberal is several respects. But look at the competition. Compared to McCain or Giuliani, Huckabee is practically Edmund Burke.

 

It does no good to derail Huck and help somebody even more liberal get in.

66

It's all relative, isn't it? Sure, Huckabee is pretty liberal is several respects. But look at the competition. Compared to McCain or Giuliani, Huckabee is practically Edmund Burke.

No, he's not. That's a silly statement.

It does no good to derail Huck and help somebody even more liberal get in.

Fred.

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