Shock: Congress Conspires To Gut Border Fence

Who could have seen this one coming?

Republican presidential hopeful Duncan Hunter is blasting a Democrat-sponsored bill that would eliminate the requirement passed by Congress to build a double-layered fence covering 854 miles of the U.S.-Mexico border.

"By eliminating the double fence requirement, the Democratic Congress is going to make it easier for drug and human smugglers to cross our Southern land border," said Hunter. "This goes against the interests of any family that has been touched by illegal drugs or any American who has seen their job taken by an illegal alien."

As WND reported last week, an amendment submitted by Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas, and co-sponsored by Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, for the Department of Homeland Security 2008 budget was aimed at gutting the already-approved Secure Fence Act, which was adopted with the promise hundreds of miles of physical fencing would help secure the U.S. border with Mexico.

The Hutchison amendment allows the secretary of homeland security to use discretion in deciding whether a fence was the most appropriate means to achieve and maintain operational control along the border with Mexico.

DHS is on record as preferring in many instances the construction of "pedestrian fences" or "virtual fences" instead of double-layered barriers as required in the 2006 law.

...

"The American people reasonably expect that a double-layer fence will be built, but Congress has always had other plans," [the president of Grassfire.org] argued. "This amendment should be stripped from the bill."

On the other hand, Congress has been prudent enough to appropriate 10 million dollars to pay for the lawyers of illegal immigrants fighting their deportation orders. So, they haven't completely forgotten about the issue.

Meanwhile... Jim Gilchrist has some buyer's remorse over his endorsement of Mike Huckabee.

Huckabee talks tough with the Krikorian plan but then takes it all back with his enthusiasm for the Pence "touchback" plan often floated during the immigration fight, which immediately grants amnesty so long as an illegal immigrant just returns to his home country for a few days and then comes back to sign up as a new US citizen. All through the immigration debate the Amnestias would push this idea as somehow making their amnesty plan a non-amnesty.

Obviously it's still amnesty. It's just amnesty with a minor bureaucratic headache thrown in which accomplishes nothing except for annoying the newly amnestied US citizen.

The demand for a home-country "touchback" would be soon repealed anyway, with the Amnestias arguing it's an empty gesture that accomplishes nothing at all. And on that score, of course, they're right.

So why bother with the fiction in the first place?

And Romney Attended A Planned Parenthood Fundraiser In 1994: So there you go.

I remember at the beginning of this race when I was pretty satisfied with the candidates. I still like them, but each of them seems to have a virtually disqualifying black mark on his record somewhere.

Two new polls show Giuliani rapidly losing ground to Huckabee in Florida, by the way.

So he appears done.

Posted by: Ace at 01:23 PM



Comments

1 There's no point even giving a fuck.



Illegals are more valuable to politicians and their pals than us plain fellers are, so nothing can be done.

Posted by: Retired (Not Gay) at December 18, 2007 01:27 PM (k5JzA)

2 Oh, bullshit. Anyone who preaches defeatism on this even after what happened earlier this year is a retard.

Meanwhile, Gilchrist may be having a "I did what!?" moment...

Posted by: someone at December 18, 2007 01:29 PM (2z2WN)

3
Are these lawyers federal public defenders? I can't fault them for getting funding if they are being deluged with these cases because congress decided to get tough (sort of) with deportations.

Posted by: aoshq janitorial, escort, & matchmaker service at December 18, 2007 01:33 PM (zdJLw)

4 The betrayals begin anew.

Posted by: USCitizen at December 18, 2007 01:40 PM (jZDim)

5 By "most appropriate" , I assume they mean "Let's pretend it's all about environment-friendly fencing" aka "This is a (soft) warning! We kinda mean it!".

Posted by: Joanie at December 18, 2007 01:43 PM (Yyy1m)

6
The betrayals begin anew.

It's never over and it will never be over. I don't know about you, but I am fucking tired of this. And no comprehensive immigration bill (aka, amnesty) will fix the problem. It will only make it worse.

Posted by: aoshq janitorial, escort, & matchmaker service at December 18, 2007 01:45 PM (zdJLw)

7 I'd already written off voting for a Republican for Governor of Texas after Rick Perry's betrayal on the Texas border issue, but Kay Bailey Hutchinson! Damn! I'd expected to vote for her again.
I haven't decided whether or not to just stay home now, or actively vote against the Pub's next election to punish them.
Note: If Huck were to ever get the Pub nomination, then I'd have the same issue at the Presidential level.
Now, somebody tell me: What the hell is the real reason behind the love of illegals?
Is it the cheap labor? What?

Posted by: Adm Halsey at December 18, 2007 01:45 PM (wSBsc)

8 And again we have two Rino's showing their true colors. Ace I think a better headline would have been Rino's conspire to gut border fence, we have a chance to limit the damage in 08 but with Repubs like Cornyn and Hutchison the chances are less and less. I am coming to the conclusion that the Republican party is NOT a conservative party any longer and I am having a increasingly having a really hard time distinguishing between the Democrat and Republican parties.

Posted by: Oldcrow at December 18, 2007 01:46 PM (8NiWI)

9 Am I misreading this? Hutchison(R) and Cornyn(R) submitted the amendment to allow DHS to use their discretion? Are Hutchison and Cornyn Open Borders types? How can we bash Dems over immigration when our own party is doing this to us?

Posted by: Mark in Portland at December 18, 2007 01:47 PM (+45yf)

10 He aint perfect but GO FRED GO!

Posted by: MAJHAM at December 18, 2007 01:47 PM (5ap+X)

11 Not just RINOs but moronic RINOs who never learned anything about message discipline.

Meanwhile...

Posted by: someone at December 18, 2007 01:51 PM (2z2WN)

12 I wouldn't write off Rudy quite yet, though. Florida numbers have been reflecting national numbers all along, and in case of Huckplosion Rudy still has a good shot there.

(Assuming, of course, no one else takes advantage by grabbing the Huckbots or otherwise taking the national lead via early primary success.)

Posted by: someone at December 18, 2007 01:54 PM (2z2WN)

13 I think Jim Gilchrist endorsed Huckabee for the same reasons that Pat Robertson endorsed Giuliani. Gilchrist wants a real border solution, but he thinks (realizes?) he has to get the Jesuslanders who have Christian guilt ("oh, we are so rich and the Mexicans are so poor, boo hoo hoo") on board if he wants a real border solution.
Likewise, Pat Robertson thinks (realizes?) he has to get the somewhat sinful businesspeople (some of whom may have had abortions or their children did, and many of whom have had messy divorces) on board if he wants to get any social conservatism at all.
Which is funny, given that both Robertson and Gilchrist have been demonized by the libmedia as "extremists". But that's the libmedia for you.
In reality, there is much more pragmatism in the GOP than we realize, thank goodness.
The only exception to this seems to be the Wall Street Journal greedheads, who insist on border chaos no matter what, cheap gardeners and maids being paramount to them, screw the middle class.

Posted by: Nick Byram at December 18, 2007 01:56 PM (ujg0T)

14 Why didn't Romney just say he was pro-choice to begin with? Now he will surely be the "Waffling Mormon" that people don't think they can trust.
Oh well, that leaves Fred! and McCain as thelast men standing if Rudy is out. Somebody needs to take one for the team and find a way to eliminate Huck. If it stays this close we could see multiple parties withcandidates goingfor POTUS. Maybe Gore/bloomberg as independent Dem's if that is still an option, Huck from the Jesus party, the rep. selection and the democratic selection. The president will have about 25% of the popular vote.

Posted by: mike at December 18, 2007 01:59 PM (/InkS)

15 If the economy doesn't pick up, the Mexicans will be building their own fence to keep US out.

And what is it about "illegal" these damn Democrats like Cornyn and Hutchison
don't understand.

Oh, wait...

My bad.

Posted by: Tom at December 18, 2007 02:00 PM (1kwK7)

16 The best thing the Republicans (except Huck) have going for them? Democrats.

The only comfort (and it's not inconsiderable) is that the Republic has survived worse and the overwhelming odds are it will survive the next douche we elect.

Posted by: DrewM. at December 18, 2007 02:00 PM (hlYel)

17 "Somebody needs to take one for the team and find a way to eliminate Huck."

Well, it seems Romney's money has to be good for SOMETHING...

Actually, if Gilchrist reverses, it would be a great below-the-waterline hit on Pantry.

Posted by: someone at December 18, 2007 02:01 PM (2z2WN)

18 Mike asks: "Why didn't Romney just say he was pro-choice to begin with?"

You're kidding, right?

Politician + Honesty = Good-Bye

Posted by: Tom at December 18, 2007 02:06 PM (1kwK7)

19 Well, no vote for Kay or Cornyn.

I can't bring myself to vote for a Dim. Guess i'll stay home or vote for the Socialist Workers Party.

Posted by: rinseandspit at December 18, 2007 02:07 PM (aBMz2)

20 I figured Hutchinson and Cornyn were going topu.. something like this at some point because they kept their options openwhen voting for the comprehensive piece of shit and its successors, rather than blockingthem outright. And now that Hutchinson has said she's not seeking reelection, I guess she can drop the pretense ofbeing concerned aboutborder security. At least Ican stillhave the satisfaction of voting against Cornyn. Any chance we couldsub Tancredo as our pinch-senator for the rest of the season?
Damn,with Perry, Hutchison and Cornyn, who needs democrats? It wouldn't be so maddening if they hadn't all run on strong border security platforms.
They are the ingrown hairsfromthe cancerous lesion on a baboon's ass, in my opinion. Ulcerous little self-seeking vermin with furry legs and diahrea.

Posted by: Cautiously Pessimistic at December 18, 2007 02:08 PM (O52Pw)

21 Drew says: "The best thing the Republicans (except Huck) have going for them? Democrats."

WOW!!

That's quite the campaign mantra.


Posted by: Tom at December 18, 2007 02:08 PM (1kwK7)

22 That's quite the campaign mantra.


Dont knock it - tt worked in '00, 02, and '04.


eh, it blew up on us in 06 but hey - three outta four aint bad!

Posted by: Karl Rove at December 18, 2007 02:10 PM (LHwbh)

23 I remember at the beginning of this race when I was pretty satisfied
with the candidates. I still like them, but each of them seems to have
a virtually disqualifying black mark on his record somewhere.

I think people have fallen into the glass is half empty instead of half full. I don't understand this litmus test that all candidates must have the same position on an issue their entire lives or they are disqualified. How many people meet that qualification, including yourself? And there are certain issues, like abortion, I don't care about. I don't think any president will have the influence to roll back roe v. wade except to appoint conservative judges. I am sure Guilliani will appoint conservative well qualified judges. How they ultimately rule is up to the judge, not the appointer. So, come on, Ace -- stick up for your candidate.

Posted by: aoshq janitorial, escort, & matchmaker service at December 18, 2007 02:11 PM (zdJLw)

24 Am I misreading this? Hutchison(R) and Cornyn(R) submitted the amendment to allow DHS to use their discretion? Are Hutchison and Cornyn Open Borders types? How can we bash Dems over immigration when our own party is doing this to us?
and:
Now, somebody tell me: What the hell is the real reason behind the love of illegals?
Is it the cheap labor? What?
Partly it is cheap labor greedheadedness among some Republicans, who are out of touch about the law enforcement and societal costs and other externalities, which they do not pay for (or if they do, very very indirectly).
Partly it is because some Republicans foolishly believe in the Karl Rovian delusion / myth of "Hispandering" to victory. Of course we should support that "talented third" of Latinos just like we support that "talented tenth" of African Americans. But too many Republicans actually sadly think they can win a welfare pandering contest.
Partly it is immigration romanticism among some Republicans.

Posted by: Nick Byram at December 18, 2007 02:12 PM (ujg0T)

25 Ace, I usually don't mind the trolls, but Tomis fucking useless and everyone is sick of him.

I vote for the ban. Anyone with me?

Posted by: mike at December 18, 2007 02:13 PM (/InkS)

26 By the way, I figure the reason we can't get anything done on the border is that Mexico is our number two oil supplier (just after Canada), and US politicians won't piss them off for fear of them jacking with oil prices or just cutting us off. Another good reason to work on alternative sources of energy like (gasp) domestic oil supplies or (gasp gasp) nuclear plants.

Posted by: Cautiously Pessimistic at December 18, 2007 02:14 PM (O52Pw)

27
I vote for the ban. Anyone with me?

I voted for that a long time ago. However, some people can't stop playing with him.

Posted by: aoshq janitorial, escort, & matchmaker service at December 18, 2007 02:15 PM (zdJLw)

28 That's quite the campaign mantra.

Sad but true.

Of course it beats the Democrat's...Vote for the shrew everyone hates, or the guy who thinks he can go from state senator to President in 4 short years or the crazy trial attorney who is selling a product the American people have never bought from a candidate for President...Snake Oil Populism.

Yeah, Sparky our guys are flawed but your's just suck.

Posted by: DrewM. at December 18, 2007 02:15 PM (hlYel)

29 If the economy doesn't pick up, the Mexicans will be building their own fence to keep US out.
Oh, yes, the American economy is just suffering terribly, what with the full employment, 2200-square-foot houses everywhere you look, highest standard of living on the planet by far, etc. etc. etc.
Buh buh but -- the subprime mortgage housing "crisis" and its almost imperceptible impact on the average Joe! And what about that weakening dollar that liberals have been begging for for decades in the name of lowering the trade deficit and keeping jobs in this country but now see as a sign of a Dickensian nightmare scenario!
Why, it's almost as if liberals are economically illiterate and/or pathologically pessimistic and/or intentionally disingenuous whenever their chosen candidate doensn't occupy the Whitehouse!
Imbecile.

Posted by: VJay at December 18, 2007 02:15 PM (gQ+XA)

30 However, some people can't stop playing with him.

I can't stop playing with myself either! Especially during Duke's of Hazard reruns. That Uncle Jesse has one fine ass in those overalls.

Posted by: Tom at December 18, 2007 02:16 PM (rZ5uY)

31 "Yeah, Sparky our guys are flawed but your's just suck"
Huckabee sucks. He is pretty much a pro-life Democrat though so I guess we can count him as theirs.

Posted by: mike at December 18, 2007 02:17 PM (/InkS)

32 This is all the more reason why we need Fred!

Posted by: Iblis at December 18, 2007 02:17 PM (9221z)

33 However, some people can't stop playing with him.

It's like making a kitten chase a laser pointer....it's just fucking irresistible.

Posted by: A. Weasel at December 18, 2007 02:19 PM (bqcfE)

34 Ace, I usually don't mind the trolls, but Tomis fucking useless and everyone is sick of him.

Plus, he's lost - he thinks he's at a military blog.

Posted by: geoff at December 18, 2007 02:22 PM (nNwnv)

35 I'm not sure any mortal could go through the vetting that the front runners go through for a year and not come out looking less than they started. Imagine if Reagan had to defend his record as Gov of CA in this climate. His divorce, his relationship with his kids (including the gay one), his signing of what was at the time the largest abortion incease in the country, his support of gun laws, the fact that he comes from a RINO state, his low key religious affiliation.... He didn't become a god until after he was president.
I'm ok with our candidates, mostly. I could vote for Romney, Rudy, Thompson and if it came to it and the alternative was any of the Dems, McCain. I never would have voted for Paul or Huck.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 18, 2007 02:27 PM (t+mja)

36 I can't stop playing with myself either! Especially during Duke's of Hazard reruns. That Uncle Jesse has one fine ass in those overalls.Posted by: Tom at December 18, 2007 02:16 PM (rZ5uY)
That really comes as no surprise, Tom.

Posted by: Nick Byram at December 18, 2007 02:30 PM (ujg0T)

37 I'm ok with our candidates, mostly. I could vote for Romney, Rudy, Thompson and if it came to it and the alternative was any of the Dems, McCain. I never would have voted for Paul or Huck.
Over any of the Demunists, Huckabee is all right, and even Ron Paul is all right. In fact, if this were 1996 or so and foreign policy didn't matter, I'd be all for Ron Paul. Really, if we lived in a hypothetical world where there was a "domestic issues only" President and an elected Secretary of State / Defense, Ron Paul would be a lot of fun. Can't you just see him going after pork?
Of course, in the real world of war, Ron Paul is a crackpot. But domestically, can you honestly tell me you don't like him?

Posted by: Nick Byram at December 18, 2007 02:34 PM (ujg0T)

38 "Tom is fucking useless"

I'll say. He takes jokes literally and he answers rhetorical questions.

Posted by: Joanie at December 18, 2007 02:34 PM (Yyy1m)

39 "I voted for that a long time ago. However, some people can't stop playing with him."
I suspect heis still here because it is somebody's gimmick troll name. I think most of the trolls are because: They always write the same shit, always offer a poll number and then make comments that are so fucking stupid that they can't be serious (ie: "If the economy doesn't pick up, the Mexicans will be building their own fence to keep US out."...really? Reality based commentary. Or you are offered sage political advice like "Politician + Honesty = Good-Bye". That doesn't even make sense.)
I know retarded people are not interested in politics. The comments left by a long line of trolls are often the sort of thing a mildly retarded person would write. Therefooor the trolls are actually the morons who post here who post retarded shit to entertain themselves.

Posted by: mike at December 18, 2007 02:35 PM (/InkS)

40 Yeah, Rick Perry is a real peice of shit, but what do you expect from someone living in Austin.Might as well call it Southwest Berkley. I voted for Kinky. And with all the violence along the border towns, you would think that Hutchison and Cornyn would like a little border security. Mexicans aren't just fleeing poverty in Mexico, they are fleeing the corruption and violence. And thanks to the open borders folks, the corruption and violence has followed them here.

Posted by: Darth Randall at December 18, 2007 02:38 PM (oLULt)

41 Of course, in the real world of war, Ron Paul is a crackpot. But domestically, can you honestly tell me you don't like him?
Domestically, I like some of what he says but I also don't live in that hypothetical world where we are going back to the gold standard and abolishing the IRS.We can't even get a wall built on our border but we can fundamentally change the financial mechanisms that our country and the world work on? Um, no. I want to be inspired by a candidate but I'm looking for someone who is realistic as well.
Plus, and this may only be me, but there is no way I could listen to that shrill, shouting voice for 4 years without stabbing myself in the ears with broken glass. It may seem petty but the President of the US is the leader of the free world and is in many ways more than just a man or a woman. Looking and acting the part matters. Look at our great presidents. They all had something, a charisma, a presence. Whatever it is, it ain't Ron Paul.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 18, 2007 02:41 PM (t+mja)

42 So Huckster lies to every constituancy he is in front of, and within 72 hours, does a 180 on an issue he just "clarified" to said people? I can't wait 'til he rolls into Harlem in a pimped out limo blasting Snoop Dog and a trunk full of 40's on ice. Picture the pants below his ass, rappin' on the roof with a microphone. "Yo Yo yo,,,I want to give a shout out to my homies, Jesse and Al". "What shakin' da hood today"? "Gonna fix all dis shit up, when Ies get yo vote, ahhight".... Follwed by a good ass whoopin'..Hopefully...It's a shame Republicans haven't reached out to the black community, and listed their accomplishments more successfully. Maybe we couldn get a higher percentage of their votes. This is an intelligent bloc that deserves courting much more so than illegals.

Posted by: hutch1200 at December 18, 2007 02:42 PM (7NAd4)

43 "It's a shame Republicans haven't reached out to the black community, and listed their accomplishments more successfully."
You can lead a black horse to water, but you can't make um drink.

Posted by: Voter X at December 18, 2007 02:58 PM (igcvF)

44 The "touchback" just proves how bought our government is by Mexico in particular.

Posted by: MlR at December 18, 2007 03:05 PM (mX6h5)

45 Are these lawyers federal public defenders? I can't fault them for getting funding if they are being deluged with these cases because congress decided to get tough (sort of) with deportations.
Posted by: aoshq janitorial, escort, matchmaker service at December 18, 2007 01:33 PM (zdJLw) Why are illegals (as in foreigners) with no guarantees under OUR Constitution, receiving public defenders? It's pretty cut and dry. They snuck in. They have no legal right to remain. Put them on the first plane smokin' back to whatever south-of-the-border cesspool they came from.

Posted by: sfcmac at December 18, 2007 03:08 PM (k6M4A)

46 15 If the economy doesn't pick up, the Mexicans will be building their own fence to keep US out.
That kind of stupidity used to be mildly entertaining but now it has becomethe commenting equivalent of fingernails on the chalk board. I'm guilty of taunting him but I won't miss him so just go ahead and do him and us a favor and ban him so he can go somewhere else and complain of people using 'his' name.

Posted by: cranky at December 18, 2007 03:11 PM (LvPYc)

47
Why are illegals (as in foreigners) with no guarantees under OUR
Constitution, receiving public defenders? It's pretty cut and dry.
They snuck in. They have no legal right to remain.

They may have no rights in the US of sfcmac, but in this country they have the right to due process. Additionally, those who re-entered after being ordered deported are subject to criminal charges and prison before being deported again.

Posted by: aoshq janitorial, escort, & matchmaker service at December 18, 2007 03:11 PM (zdJLw)

48 This is what Kay Bailey's spokeman says and I agree with him:

"This statement by Grassfire.org is factually inaccurate," Mackowiak told WND in an e-mail. "Sen. Hutchison supports the border fence and voted for the Secure Fence Act."

Mackowiak further told WND that the main purpose of the amendment was to require DHS to consult with the Border Patrol and citizens along the border before beginning construction.

"Sen. Hutchison recognizes that the federal government has limited resources and border patrol agents manning the border know best where to put fencing to prevent illegal immigration and to thwart drug cartels," Mackowiak told WND. "Those decisions should not be left to legislators who have never even visited our border."

The border is 2100 miles long. Congress has only mandated fence for less than half of that. Why shouldn't DHS have some flexibility as to where the fencing goes? There are a lot of places where double fencing is almost impossible to build, or inappropriate for other reasons.

Cornyn and Hutchison are responding to the wishes of their constituents who were told that DHS would consult with landowners on the river as to where and how the fence would be built.

The US Army and Texas Rangers fought and died to make the Texas-Mexico border the MIDDLE of the Rio Grande, not the Nueces River or somewhere in between. If DHS is going to build fencing miles north of the river, as planned, they had sure as hell better do it so that the land that winds up south of fence can still be used by the owner, or they are in effect ceding that land back to Mexico.

Posted by: stace at December 18, 2007 03:24 PM (4x6iT)

49 Ban the Tom.

Posted by: Trimegistus at December 18, 2007 03:29 PM (RHlPY)

50 The comments left by a long line of trolls are often the sort of thing
a mildly retarded person would write. Therefore the trolls are
actually the morons who post here who post retarded shit to entertain
themselves.

Look, if this was ar15.com, I'd KNOW Tom was somebody's troll account. Here where we pretty much can sock-puppet anyone (I've posted as SGT Dan's Cat before in lolspeak), it's got to be hard to tell the real Tom from the fakers. At least we know there's only one csdeven, well, mostly.

Back to the original point. With the amount of money involved and the ethnic pandering of an election year, we're suprised at a sellout on immigration?






Posted by: SGT Dan at December 18, 2007 03:45 PM (oOQel)

51 Why are you people so intent on ONLY having people here who agree with you??

It's supposed to be a discussion blog, not a fucking suckfest among those who all agree.

The ONLY thing I've read here over the past 2-3 weeks is a constant drumbeat of how horrible Huckabee is.

If he's soooooooooooooooooooooo bad...exactly who are you voting for or want for a candidate...and who do you think can actually WIN??
P.S. Vjay, if you really think the economy is in good shape you really need to get out more. We're either already in a recession or a few steps from entering. Between the housing mark, building trades, banks, deficits, trade imbalances, inflation (the last number was the highest increase in a generation), cost of goods...we're in trouble.

Posted by: Tom at December 18, 2007 03:59 PM (1kwK7)

52 Cranky,
Do you think the economy is in good shape?

Do you think the rationale behind the "fence" controversy isn't related to the economy, especially in border states?

Do you get a newspaper?

Have a T.V.?

Blaming what you refer to as "trolls" doesn't shore up the lack of any real point of view. And the standard "the illegals are ruining our country argument" is superficial and disingenuous at best.

Posted by: Tom at December 18, 2007 04:11 PM (1kwK7)

53 P.S. Vjay, if you really think the economy is in good shape you really need to get out more. We're either already in a recession or a few steps from entering. Between the housing mark, building trades, banks, deficits, trade imbalances, inflation (the last number was the highest increase in a generation), cost of goods...we're in trouble.
Of course we are, Tom. I mean, it's not as if you chicken little dipshits have been singing the same fucking tune since 2000, despite the fact that our economy has been undergoing sustained, unparalleled-in-the-rest-of-the-free-world growth for the past 4-5 years.
Full employment. Moderate inflation. Record levels of home ownership. Unparalleled levels of purchasing power and small business ownership. Real "recession" ya got there, genius.
But hey, I guess you clowns feel that if you keepplaying the "IMPENDING RECESSION!!!!!!111111" card, then the very nature of the business cycle, not to mention the non-stop media drumbeat of HOOVERVILLE!!!!!111 from a media trying to gin up a recession despite all the economic indicators to the contrary, will prove you right.
You don't get to play pretend economist, Tommy, because there isn't a liberal alive that has the first fucking clue about economics. Now go on and worship your statue of Paul Krugman and get back to us when that cretinous midget gets something right. We'll be waiting on pins and needles.

Posted by: VJay at December 18, 2007 04:23 PM (gQ+XA)

54 Why are you people so intent on ONLY having people here who agree with you??
It's not that, Tom. It's just that you aren't bright, you aren't informed, you aren't interesting, you aren't funny, you don't stay on topic, you refuse to post links tosupport your idiotic, off-topic assertions, and you communicate with the skill of a wounded, groggy monkey.
What can I say -- wer're fickle around here.

Posted by: VJay at December 18, 2007 04:27 PM (gQ+XA)

55 Yes, Tom I do think the economy is in good shape. Unemployment is low, interest rates are low, wage growth is up, growth of GDP is at almost five percent. What isnot to like about our current economy? Credit crunch over sub-prime mortgages? That's a market correction issue. A few sub-prime lenders get hosed is their problem. Why should they take your money to bail them out? New housing starts down but then there is an inventory glut so that is to be expected.
I don't give a fuck about the economic impact of a border fence because I care much more about border security and that immigrants come to this country legally. Take a look at hospitals shutting down in California because the only paying customer they get is the non-paying illegal. Illegal immigrants not only consumer public services they don't pay for but they depress wages. And if you really want to hear people pissed off about the depression of wages due to illegal immigrants driving down the market, ask some black men.
Tom, essentially you're an untalentedand dishonest hemorrhoid and that is why so many people here want to see you banned. It isn't that you hold a different viewpoint, it is the manner in which you belittle others and you're general air of unearned superiority that earns you the dislike of so many here.

Posted by: cranky at December 18, 2007 04:27 PM (7rKVk)

56 It's supposed to be a discussion blog...

Once again Tom dictates what the blog is supposed to be. At least now that he's stopped bleating "I thought this was supposed to be a milblog" he's getting closer to what it is.

Posted by: geoff at December 18, 2007 04:34 PM (nNwnv)

57 Cranky says: "What isnot to like about our current economy?"


Well, based on the following data, you might want to run that question by our fellow Americans:


Investor's Business Daily/Christian
Science Monitor/TIPP poll



"How would you rate
economic conditions in this country today -- as excellent, good, only fair, or poor?" - 12 / 6-9 / 07



Excellent Good Only Fair Poor

3% 25% 45% 27%

"Right
now, do you think that economic conditions in the country as a whole are getting better or
getting worse?"

Better Worse Same
21% 71% 3%

Posted by: Tom at December 18, 2007 04:51 PM (1kwK7)

58 Wow, Tom -- you get mocked for basing your not-supported-by-empirical-evidence assertions on public opinion polls, and then you come roaring back by reinforcing your not-supported-by-empirical-evidence assertions on... public opinion polls.
Bravo, dumbass. "Mildly retarded" is looking more and more likely an explanation for your pitiable performance on this board.
Oh, and I noticed that you excluded the poll numbers showing that the vast majority of Americans are very upbeat about their own economic situations but -- wonder of wonders -- manage to project severe pessimism to the assumed economic situations of complete strangers. It's almost as if there's been some kind of sustained, relentless campaign to convince people that, no matter how many walk-in humidors they've purchased this year, all of their neighbors are assuredly eating cat food.
You know, the kind of sustained, relentless campaign that's been exposed, discussed, and lambasted on this board and throughout the conservative blogosphere for about half a decade now.
But hey, we got bored with this boilerplate a long time ago. Challenge a lefty's ridiculous beliefs, and he'll defend them by counting the number of retards that agree with him for no other reason than, uh, the number of retards that agree with him. Community-based reality, as it were.
And you still couldn't muster the mad intertubes skills to post a link, you silly little monkey. I guessa part of me would have been disappointed if you had.

Posted by: VJay at December 18, 2007 05:02 PM (gQ+XA)

59 OK, tommy. A fool reads the paper and johnny stewart on the TV's, and considers themselves "informed". I'm in the telecom construction industry and haven't seen this alleged slump you speak of. Not in the North East area at least. And yes, I'm in touch with builders laying out new developments, and the local permit process. Are there small builders with nothing more than a truck and a hammer going out of business? Hell yes. Most of them are shoddy scam artists who should go back to day trading after doing jail time. But that asshole cries on TV, and it fits the meme. The MSM never checks these people out. As they did recently in Scranton. This guy was crying about bankruptcyto a major network recently. They failed to mention him going to jail for 3-5. Nice thorough job, and the locals laughed. Better yet, check BBB statsand States Attornies General on complaints against contracors. I did, but that's my job. Fuck you, go check for yourself.....On a personal note I'm able to put an addition on my house for 2/3rds of what it would have cost 18 months ago. Business is getting tight and the building/remodeling people are flooded with good, skilled,Americanapplicants. One contractor explained he'll hire people just to keep someone else from getting a talented employee. Thereby trying toinfluence the local tradesman pool. The perks good craftsmen enjoy now has never been seen before. Hence construction companies of moderate size and above,cut prices to keep people busy, but work on a thinner margin. It's called Capitolism.......Alas tommy, you belong here. You are not even a moron, but your contrarian views about every fucking topic serves as a reminder that publiclibraries must leteverybody use the inertubes. At least you're not downloading kiddy pron while you're here. I hope. I could drop in on any site and see SOMETHING that I agree with. But not you, tommy chuck adkins, not you. Always the prick bastard you've always wanted to be....Happy rahma-hama-quanz-mas

Posted by: hutch1200 at December 18, 2007 05:04 PM (7NAd4)

60 geoff,
Are you actually saying this isn't a blog for discussion?

Really?

Okay...what is it?

Posted by: Tom at December 18, 2007 05:05 PM (1kwK7)

61 Mike called it: They always write the same shit, always offer a poll number and then make comments that are so fucking stupid that they can't be serious

But Mike forgot to mention how they like to distort poll information. From the IBD poll report:
"This month, two of the 21 demographic groups that IBD/TIPP tracks were above 50 on the Economic Optimism Index (Republicans and 18 to 24 year olds) and overall economic optimism improved among 15 of the 21 groups, while falling for the rest. The largest gains occurred among Westerners (+7.4 points), those with household incomes between $30K to $50K (+5.5), Suburbanites (+4.3) and Republicans (+3.2). The highest index scores occurred among Republicans (57.5) and 18 to 24 year olds (56), while the lowest scores belonged to Democrats (33.3) and Northeasterners (38.6)."Doggone Dems, always dragging us down...

Posted by: geoff at December 18, 2007 05:07 PM (nNwnv)

62 Are you saying you don't believe the polling from one of the most conservative and revered financial publications in the country?

Are you saying they're lying?

Are you saying YOU know more about how the average American citizen feels than they themselves?

Do you ONLY believe polling that supports your personal beliefs?

*Check out the Wall Street Journal's take on the economy, maybe that will open your eyes.

Posted by: Tom at December 18, 2007 05:10 PM (1kwK7)

63 Are you actually saying this isn't a blog for discussion?Really?Okay...what is it?
Discussion is one thing. Statements like this:
If the economy doesn't pick up, the Mexicans will be building their own fence to keep US out.
apparently sincerely made, are quite another.
That said, I don't favor banning anyone, ever. But we will probably tune you out....
In other words, don't feed the troll.

Posted by: Nick Byram at December 18, 2007 05:11 PM (ujg0T)

64 Tom,
1) The US economy is about 23% of the world's economy, and the people living here are the most productive andprosperous in the history of the world. Ever. That is why we have the illegal immigration problem in the first place.
2) Overall, the effect of illegal immigration is a net drain on the economy. What with the emergency rooms closing, the jails filling, and the schools being forced to 'accomodate' the hords of people that don't speak english well enough to participate -- and succeed -- in our society. A fence, and some honest-to-God border enforcement would <em>help</em> our economy, not hurt it.
3) This is a <em>moron</em> blog.
Does that help?

Posted by: fretless at December 18, 2007 05:13 PM (/ZX77)

65 But i want tags to work.

Posted by: fretless at December 18, 2007 05:19 PM (/ZX77)

66 A few points ...

1- Any time you leave discretion to that skeletal remains of a human being in charge of Homeland Security ... you are fucked. Doesn't matter WHAT KBH's mouthpiece has to say. The end result will be the wall project will be shit-canned.

2- "Ace, I usually don't mind the trolls, but Tom is fucking useless and everyone is sick of him. I vote for the ban. Anyone with me?"

No, for a simple reason ... that's what lefties like Kos do to people they disagree with. We are, I hope, better than that. No - my suggestion was - and is - to require registration and verification before being allowed to post comments.

3- "It's a shame Republicans haven't reached out to the black community, and listed their accomplishments more successfully."

aahhh... such as?

Posted by: Bruce at December 18, 2007 05:20 PM (2q+Ss)

67 "Economic Optimism Index"

What the fuck is this ... some idea dreamed up by some Wall Street traders? You know - the same ones who fuck up our economy with their fears they won't get a million buck bonus every year?

Posted by: Bruce at December 18, 2007 05:25 PM (2q+Ss)

68 tommy, try as I might, I can't think of anybody I know,(50-100 people) losing a job in the last 4-6 years. Of the 1-3 who got fired, they deserved it through their own fuck-ups and severe malfeasance. I checked my Rolodex, Christmas card lists and local strip clubs. Nada. Nobody at the Country Club or the "Cranium Fornicators Motorcycle Gang" clubhouse/hideout can name one either. Well, we did shitcan the bartender at the clubhouse because the Christmas Meth sale isn't going as well as we thought. Retirement and Murders don't count. The poll, and it's numbersyou point out, hasn't really hasn't change much since its' inception. This poll is really a glorified Carter era misery index. In spite of my personal well being, I think everybody else is fucked. They areon the dope, in need of serious psycological help or just plain old democrats who bullshit themselves. OK, that last sentence was redundant.

Posted by: hutch1200 at December 18, 2007 05:29 PM (7NAd4)

69 Bruce that was CYA on my part. That was supposed to be a comedy joke. We fight over religion while donks raise money in churchs. WTF.

Posted by: hutch1200 at December 18, 2007 05:35 PM (7NAd4)

70 It's not a "wall project". Congress mandated about 800 miles of double fencing along certain stretches of the border, not for the entire 2100 miles of the border.

There are places within those mandated stretches where a fence just doesn't make any sense, for various reasons. Conditions on the ground are so variable that a one-size-fits-all solution mandated on high by the boobs in Congress is stupid. It's sort of like congress trying to micro-manage a small war. There has to be some executive discretion allowed.

I know a guy who ranches along the river, and his dog found a severed human head on the property. Mexican women are being raped and murdered on his property. He wants: for corporations to stop recruiting in Mexico, for more border law enforcement, for more internal law enforcement with fewer incentives for illegals to come here, for US attorneys to start prosecuting all the "coyotes" that LEO's arrest instead of releasing them, for BP agents to be able to do their jobs without fear of prosecution. These are the things that worked in the past, and there was no need for a hugely expensive fence that would still have to be patrolled and maintained.

Posted by: stace at December 18, 2007 05:42 PM (4x6iT)

71 Also--no sanctuary cities.

Posted by: stace at December 18, 2007 05:47 PM (4x6iT)

72 One other thing. Granted this argumentum ad hominem, but Jerome Corsi and WND have been pushing the NAU conspiracy theory. I admired Corsi's work with the Swift Boat Vets, but he's a teensy bit nutty, and I think he's blowing this Hutchison amendment thing out of proportion.

Posted by: stace at December 18, 2007 05:54 PM (4x6iT)

73 Are you saying you don't believe the polling from one of the most conservative and revered financial publications in the country?
Are you saying YOU know more about how the average American citizen feels than they themselves?
No, I'm saying that the feeeeeeeeeelings of people about this, that, or the other thing aren't a rebuttal of empirical evidence to the contrary. You got it now? Did it take this time? Feeeeeeeelings aren't facts. The preponderence of facts, as conveyed by multiple metrics that have been applied for measuring economic healthfor decades,paint the picture of a robust, growing economy. Feeeeeeelings to the contrary of those facts are irrelevant, no matter how many people share them.
Oh, except that, over time and astheir wholly irrational beliefs start shaping theirbehavior,people actually forge the very same negative reality thatpreviouslyexisted only in their delusions. Of course, that's been the media's whole point, because there's a Republican in the White House. So Joe thinks his financial condition is great but that everywhere else there's widespread hobo cannibalism. Funny how that works on a grand scale, huh?

Posted by: VJay at December 18, 2007 06:19 PM (gQ+XA)

74 "Bruce that was CYA on my part. That was supposed to be a comedy joke.
We fight over religion while donks raise money in churchs. WTF."
Oh. Never mind

Posted by: Bruce at December 18, 2007 06:36 PM (2q+Ss)

75 Tom, they teach the definition of a recession in business school, you know.

Posted by: Warden at December 18, 2007 07:05 PM (QoR4a)

76 Don't get too caught up in the early states.NY, NJ, CA, and IL all vote on 2/5, and if any candidate takes them all NH/IA/FL/MI won't matter.

Posted by: Giant Bolivian Rat at December 18, 2007 07:45 PM (/XDWj)

77 I just saw "I Am Legend" and it was great. Not as dark as "Omega Man," and the special effects were terrific.

As I watched the movie I was struck by the similarity of Will Smith's plight, and my own right here on this blog. The poor guy was constantly besieged by a massive pack of howling manics who just wouldn't stop long enough to listen to the man...and believe me...if only they had...

*And what was even stranger; I'm in about the same physical condition as Will and I imagine many here look and act quite a bit like the carnivores chasing the poor man around.

Posted by: Tom at December 18, 2007 08:20 PM (1kwK7)

78 Warden,
I know what a recession is, I attended a nice Midwestern University, majored in business.

And I certainly realize many here are defensive of any form of criticism directed at the current administration, but we have some real problems right now that need to be addressed before they get out of control.

If you don't think we're heading for one or in one right now, take it
up with many of the economists who are discussing and warning us about
the possibility every day of the week...and they're not "liberals," they represent both sides of the aisle.

Here's another poll from October 18, 2007 that indicates many Americans are on mu side of this argument/discussion/debate:
WASHINGTON (CNN) — Nearly half of Americans feel
the U.S. economy is in a recession, marked by a significant decline in
economic activity, according to a survey released Thursday.
The poll by the CNN-Opinion Research Corporation found that while 46 percent of Americans hold that belief, 51 percent don't.

Posted by: Tom at December 18, 2007 08:33 PM (1kwK7)

79 Tom, there you go with the polls again. Do those polled know what the definition of a recession is? We're kind of rocketing along at an almost 5 percent positive growth ratebut according to you and others, who you again fail to provide any citation links to,we are teetering on the brink of falling into a period of negative growth rate. So how about some links to economic facts that support your position that weare on the brink of a recession? Thanks.
You are now comparing yourself to a heroic fictional character and you feel like a martyr. At least you don't have self-esteem issues.

Posted by: cranky at December 18, 2007 09:25 PM (7rKVk)

80 Tom -
I think that the reason that people write you off is that you seem to be immune to empirical evidence. You also seem to keep plucking the same tune, even after you've been told you're wrong. An easy example is that you posted a poll about how people feel about the economy... and it was pointed out to you twice that people's feeling are not the economy, nor even an accurate indicator.
So - what you do you do? You post another feelings about the economy poll result.
I really suspect that you are some regular poster's sockpuppet for us to play with. It's not the disagreement - I've sharply disagreed with others here, now and again, it's your total inability to form a logical argument. Kind of sad actually.
Here - I'm going to help you:
Although the economic indicators are good now, I'm not certain that we can escape the impact of all that subprime debt out there. Additionally I believe that the economy traditionally goes south during election years where there isn't a clear winner indicated. The market hates uncertainty. So, I'm pretty certain that the economy will fall off next summer.

There Tom, see how it should be done? I'll bet I get some disagreement, but I won't be called a midget cocksucker... (Well maybe, it IS a moron blog and calling people midget cocksuckers is what we do here).

Posted by: Lokki at December 18, 2007 09:25 PM (LMJBl)

81 Are you actually saying this isn't a blog for discussion?

First, that's not what I said. Try reading a little. I can't believe how many trolls can't read a simple sentence without distorting its meaning.

Second, the primary raison d'etre of this blog is to provide a humorous, conservative take on current issues. Humor almost always takes precedence over discussion. Your sole potential worth to the residents here is a source of amusement. Hence the colorful descriptions of your sordid past. But don't feel bad - you're just another in a long string of trolls who completely missed the point of this blog.

Third, "discussion" implies a situation where each side finds the other side's arguments interesting. Since your arguments are universally inaccurate, weak versions of the standard liberal mantra, and since you don't really read the opposing arguments anyway, there is no possibility for discussion. So even if it was primarily a discussion blog, that fact wouldn't be relevant in your case.

Posted by: geoff at December 18, 2007 09:58 PM (nNwnv)

82 Are you saying you don't believe the polling from one of the most
conservative and revered financial publications in the country?
Sigh. Another instance of profound illiteracy.

Posted by: geoff at December 18, 2007 10:01 PM (nNwnv)

83 The ONLY polls people here believe are those with which they agree.

I'd like to say it's on the order of having your heads buried in the sane, but we ALL know where your heads REALLY are...don't we?

P.S. And I love Lokki's comment: "I think that the reason that people write you off is that you seem to be immune to empirical evidence."

The polls I posted aren't made up of whole cloth, you moron. They're based on what Americans feel, are experiencing right now and how that might effect their future cash or investment outlays. The government has used just such polling for decades, to see measure their economic decisions results, and to evaluate the response in "human" terms.

Are you saying you're not aware of this? That you never took a fucking economics class, had a job related to the county's economics or how Americans deal with their every day way of life?

*Just for grins...think "retail" and Christmas...and spending.


REALLY?

P.S. Geoff... right. This isn't a blog relating to "discussion.' ..."the primary raison d'etre of this blog is to provide a humorous, conservative take on current issues..."

Not to "discuss"...only to provide "humor" and a "take" on things from day to day. (So what we'll find above is nothing more than...82 humorous takes on the topic at hand??)

Good lord...

Posted by: Tom at December 19, 2007 12:08 AM (1kwK7)

84 Are you actually saying this isn't a blog for discussion?
Really?
Okay...what is it?

Titties. Post some tittie pics. (not YOURS!)

Posted by: cheshirecat at December 19, 2007 12:10 AM (fkZ8U)

85 82 humorous takes on the topic at hand??

...most at your expense. As usual.

This isn't a blog relating to "discussion.'

Still can't read, can you? Try sounding out the words in sequence and connecting the meaning of one word to the next.

Here's a comprehension hint: I said "primary."

Posted by: geoff at December 19, 2007 12:11 AM (Ophf3)

86 As I watched the movie I was struck by the similarity of Will Smith's plight, and my own right here on this blog. The poor guy was constantly besieged by a massive pack of howling manics who just wouldn't stop long enough to listen to the man...and believe me...if only they had...

Someone bring him a vodka bottle with a nipple attached, cart him away in the Wahbulance, with a chorus of tiny violins playing sweetly...

Posted by: cheshirecat at December 19, 2007 12:14 AM (fkZ8U)

87 Someone bring him a vodka bottle with a nipple attached, cart him away
in the Wahbulance, with a chorus of tiny violins playing sweetly...

And why do I think that he's completely unaware of the enormous difference between their situations? The difference that erases all the similarities?

Probably because he's never exhibited any sense of self-awareness since he arrived.

Posted by: geoff at December 19, 2007 12:22 AM (Ophf3)

88 I don't think I've ever seen such a look of misery and dejection on the face of my mother's as I just did a moment ago. I sat down with her on the sofa and (as calmly as I could) tried to explain to her why the Will Smith's plight is so similar to Mein Kampf...er, my struggle on this pathetic "milblog." I'm constantly being hounded by these studly gay guys lusting after my Tom-junk.

I tried to keep my voice steady, but it became increasingly difficult - the rage and feelings of helplessnes were just too much. I think my mother could tell something was wrong. I found myself at such a loss for words - nothing made any sense; nothing makes sense anymore. I finally had to admit, "Mommie, I just don't know - I don't know what's going on in this country anymore..."

When I finished her lower lip started to tremble and her eyes began to fill with tears, "Daddy, er, Tommy" she said, "why are the Republicans doing this to the country?" Well, that was it for me: I finally fell apart. She just fell into my arms and we both began sobbing for several minutes. Then she sucked my so hard, the universe imploded.

Posted by: CheChe aka TomTom at December 19, 2007 12:42 AM (fkZ8U)

89 Tom, can you tell us what the differencebetween between a poll of opinions andstuff that can be looked up or calculated (those things are calledfacts)? Thanks snookums.

Posted by: cranky at December 19, 2007 08:25 AM (7rKVk)

90 Here's another poll from October 18, 2007 that indicates many Americans are on mu side of this argument/discussion/debate:
WASHINGTON (CNN) — Nearly half of Americans feel the U.S. economy is in a recession, marked by a significant decline in economic activity, according to a survey released Thursday.
Another fucking feeeeeelingspoll. You're simply unbelievable. And, yet, somehow, magically, the one set of polls that you haven't managed to find are the ones showing that the vast majority of Americans have a very positive outlook on their own financial situations. Come on Tommy -- I'm sure those statistics are in some of the very same polls you keep throwing up here without attribution and/or links (which, IMHO, should be sufficient reason to ban you).
But no, no -- we're in a "recession" according to you because uh, um, duh, derrr, a lot of Americans feeeeeel that we're in a "recession". That settles it, then, despite the fact that the economic indicators used to actually, you know, evaluate whether or not we're in a recession instead point to sustained, strong economic growth.
Seriously, get lost douchebag. Your stupidity is the best argument yet against universal suffrage.

Posted by: VJay at December 19, 2007 09:13 AM (kico6)

91 Cranky,
If you don't think the publics perception of how things are going don't effect how things DO GO...you're dreaming.

If it wasn't the case, there would be NO POLLS OF ANY KIND.

Why do you think candidates do polling that relatesto everything from taxes, to health care?

Just for grins??

Give it up.

P.S. You, too, VJay...your argument about "feelings" being irrelevant is ludicrous.


Posted by: Tom at December 19, 2007 03:01 PM (1kwK7)

92 Let's illustrate the value and the limitations of polls.

Everybody who thinks Tom is a schmuck, raise your hands.

Now Tom, do you disagree that most hands here went up? At a guess I'd say 93% of posters on this thread think you ARE a schmuck.

Now, is it true?

Should you act differently based on this poll result?

Should others prejudge you based on it?

Posted by: nichevo at December 19, 2007 03:51 PM (Ak+g8)

93 Tom....
I'd already voted you into the "Get Lost" bucket once, but had decided to give you another chance. Why, I do not know.
Look - I tried to give you some help in my last post, but you didn't take the hint.
Now I have to do your work for you. Why shouldbother?
But here: here's some data about the economy that suggests things might just BE slowing down:
http://money.cnn.com/2007/12/17/news/economy/holiday_shopping.ap/index.htm

Posted by: Midget Excort Service employees at December 19, 2007 04:00 PM (wSBsc)

94 Tom, are you really that stupid? I asked you to cite some facts. You cite a poll stating people's feelings, again, and again, and again. No where did I say that public perceptions wouldn't drive economic reality. For example, if you keep telling yourself that you're stupid, eventually you will recognize the truth in the statement andyour realitywillmerge with ourperception.

Posted by: cranky at December 19, 2007 04:15 PM (7rKVk)

95 P.S. You, too, VJay...your argument about "feelings" being irrelevant is ludicrous.
Buh buh buh that's how I feeeeel, dipshit. Isn't that all that matters?
Your stupidity is exasperating. A "recession" has a specific, objectively measurable meaning. All anyone has tried to do here, for what seems like an eternity and apparently out of compassion for the severely mentally disabled, is to get you to recognize that, despite all your batshit-crazy-lunatic-standing-on-the-street-corner ravings to the contrary, the United States is not and has not recently been in a recession according to those metrics.
No matter how many lonely morons answering cold-calls say to the contrary. A survey of 500 bankers with Mensa memberships, in fact, all of whom agreed that they feeeeeelt that theUnited States is in and has been in a recession, would not change the fact that the United States is not and has not been ina recession because the objective criteriaused to evaluate that proposition disagrees in no uncertain terms with the feeeeelings of the bankers.
This is not disputable, retard. We didn't pull these metrics out of a hat; they're the same ones that every economist has been using for decades. And those metrics, when applied, indicate that not only is the country not in a recession (which would require multiple quarters of declining GDP), but we have been living through an uninterrupted expansion for about five years. You know, dumbass -- a strong and growing economy.
No one has argued that opinions can't influence the future; they simply don't dictate the present. Have I condensed it down to simple enough terms now, cretin? Do I or any other posters need to produce any more hypothetical polls to illustrate what a fucking imbecile you are for continuing down this path? Do you really get off on the humiliation, Tom?
For crying out loud, if you're going to be just as enervatingly dumb as erg and tommy, could you at least be half as unintentionally entertaining?

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