Romney Speech: Not About Mormonism

Excerpts from Romney’s long anticipated speech on religion are flying around.

He’s not going to address Mormonism specifically…

"There are some who would have a presidential candidate describe and explain his church's distinctive doctrines," Romney said. "To do so would enable the very religious test the founders prohibited in the Constitution. No candidate should become the spokesman for his faith. For if he becomes president, he will need the prayers of the people of all faiths."

But rather the role of faith and religion in general…

"We separate church and state affairs in this country, and for good reason. No religion should dictate to the state nor should the state interfere with the free practice of religion. But in recent years, the notion of the separation of church and state has been taken by some well beyond its original meaning. They seek to remove from the public domain any acknowledgment of God," Romney said.
"The founders proscribed the establishment of a state religion, but they did not countenance the elimination of religion from the public square. We are a nation 'Under God' and in God, we do indeed trust," he added.

Obviously Kennedy is the precedent for something like this but it seems his challenge was rather specific, assure voters he wouldn’t be taking orders from the Pope. Given that, a speech about the relationship between church and state made sense.

It seems Romeny’s "problem" is of a different sort. I don’t get the feeling his challenge is to convince people that he won’t be taking orders from the President of the Church of LDS but rather that he’s not a member of some kooky sect. Does a general speech alleviate those concerns or is it even possible to reconcile the people who care about this to his faith?

Not being a particularly religious person, it never crosses my mind to worry about these things, so I am not sure how it will play.

The speech starts in about 10 minutes at 10:30 eastern.

I should add that I get what he's trying to do is say without actually saying it, 'religion shouldn't matter' but I don't see how that plays well. Fairly or not, it obviously does matter to enough voters or he wouldn't be giving this speech. I don't think it would play well for a candidate tell voters what they may or may not consider in selecting a President.

Posted by: DrewM. at 11:20 AM

Comments

1 The Jesus Ladies in our party aren't going to be happy until a "believer" like Hillary Clinton is POTUS.

Posted by: Dirk at December 06, 2007 11:36 AM (AJx67)

2 It's still not clear to me that there's a real issue here, as opposed to something the media have been desperately trying to fan into an issue.

Posted by: JSinger at December 06, 2007 11:38 AM (EqFh0)

3 I don't like this speech so far, but I can't put my finger on what's wrong with it.

It feels very confrontational.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 06, 2007 11:40 AM (1Ug6U)

4 It feels very confrontational.

I think because by its very nature its defensive. Romney is in a no win situation.

Posted by: Drew at December 06, 2007 11:43 AM (hlYel)

5 It's all the talk about polygamy, Gabriel. And that one section where Romney said that if he's elected, he's going to force us all to listen to that damned Mormon Tabernacle Choir for at least 30 minutes a day. That's what's making you uncomfortable.

Posted by: Rocketeer at December 06, 2007 11:44 AM (GFaLW)

6 It's still not clear to me that there's a real issue here, as opposed to something the media have been desperately trying to fan into an issue.

There's an issue. I've heard many evangelicals say they would never vote for a Mormon, under any circumstances.

Posted by: Slublog at December 06, 2007 11:44 AM (R8+nJ)

7 I think he's on stronger ground where he talks about the secularization of the first amendment and the right to include religion in 'the public square'. That will play well, especially at this time of year.

Posted by: Drew at December 06, 2007 11:46 AM (hlYel)

8 It feels very confrontational.

I think it's supposed to be, a little. He's confronting secularism but also the idea that the (admittedly peculiar) tenets of his faith somehow disqualify him from the presidency. He's not quite calling his evangelical critics bigots, but he is certainly calling them out a bit.

Posted by: Slublog at December 06, 2007 11:46 AM (R8+nJ)

9 Mormons = kooky sect. That's exactly the problem.

Here it is in a nutshell:

Mormonism and mainstream Christianity have competing, and mutually exclusive, truth claims about Jesus Christ and His purpose on earth. One example is the notion of what becomes of our souls after our bodies die. Christians believe we are reconciled to the Father in heaven through our faith in Christ; Mormons believe we are ourselves made divine.

Then there's the whole Book of Mormon thing, and what it means to Mormons. A good comparison is that of the Book of Mormon versus the Anglican Book of Common Prayer:

For Anglicans, the BCP is an aid to worship. It contains prayers, liturgies, etc., that give shape and form to the way we worship. It does not add to, or subtract from, the nature of our faith.

The Book of Mormon, however, seeks to "correct" the Bible, such that if you take away the Book of Mormon, Mormonism ceases to exist. The same is not true of the BCP: Take it away, and you have not diminished the faith of Anglican Christians. You've gutted it of a beautiful work that makes Anglican worship distinctive and compelling, but you haven't changed at all what we believe.

Right now Romney is now saying what he believes about Jesus Christ - that He is the son of God and the savior of mankind, but that's not a sufficient definition of Christianity as delivered through Holy Scripture. There are plenty of denominations - Oneness Pentacostals, for example - that believe Jesus Christ is the son of God and the savior of mankind, but also make claims that are irreconcilable with Christianity. In the case of Oneness Pentacostals, they don't believe in the Trinity. This is a competing and irreconcilable truth claim about the Christian godhead, and thus they are seen as a kooky sect.

Romney's a good speaker, and his words right now sound very patriotic. I personally wouldn't have made this argument if I were Romney. I would have asked the American people if really matters to them whether or not their president is a Christian or a Mormon; or whether he wants to cut taxes and kill terrorists. All Rimney is doing as far as the question of his faith goes, is prompting people to dig more deeply into the question of who Christ is and why He came to earth. That happens to be, in and of itself, a great question to discuss in the American political arena in the sense that any opportunity for evangelism is a good one; but if Romney wants to minimize concern over the question of whether the Mormons are a kooky sect, I'm not so sure this is going to work.

Posted by: Greg Griffith at December 06, 2007 11:48 AM (L+RCs)

10 Yeah, it's an issue I have had folks at church (an A of G) tell me that they couldn't vote for Romney. On the other hand these are people who have not really taken a good look at candidate's positions and policies. Whether they do and then change their minds depends a lot on who the two candidates are in the end.

I don't know anyone who wants 4 more years of the Clintons.

Posted by: Taleena at December 06, 2007 11:50 AM (ZdruO)

11 ; but if Romney wants to minimize concern over the question of whether the Mormons are a kooky sect, I'm not so sure this is going to work.

I don't think this speech is aimed at the evangelicals. I think he's done something interesting here - he's tied his faith to the greater religious tradition in America and is asking for the same respect for faith that other faiths believe.

Posted by: Slublog at December 06, 2007 11:52 AM (R8+nJ)

12 Yeah, he did better with that second section about religion and the state. Maybe he just needed a little warm-up.

Drew, I don't think he is trying to say "religion shouldn't matter." I think he's saying "I think religion does matter and that's why you should vote for me."

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 06, 2007 11:53 AM (1Ug6U)

13 Eh, the jihad riff was odd. It's fine stuff, just not sure it belongs in this speech. It kind of sounds like, 'hey you think Mormons are bad, how 'bout those Muslims?'

Posted by: Drew at December 06, 2007 11:53 AM (hlYel)

14 Drew, I don't think he is trying to say "religion shouldn't matter." I think he's saying "I think religion does matter and that's why you should vote for me."

Yeah, but the problem is that then invites scrutiny and judgment on his religion, which is what he's saying shouldn't happen.

It's a tightrope and I think a bit of a contradictory one for him.

Posted by: Drew at December 06, 2007 11:55 AM (hlYel)

It's a tightrope and I think a bit of a contradictory one for him.

Well, at the risk of baiting Bart, that's classic Romney for you.

Posted by: Rocketeer at December 06, 2007 11:57 AM (GFaLW)

16 The main problem with Romney is he thinks people are a lot smarter than they are.

Posted by: polynikes at December 06, 2007 12:02 PM (m2CN7)

17 Rocketeer,

Let's be fair to Mitt, this is a situation beyond his control. It's not his fault that this contradiction exists.

Posted by: Drew at December 06, 2007 12:09 PM (hlYel)

Drew, I know I was being petty in this instance. But in my opinion the guy disingenuously tries to benefit from contradicting his "earlier" self on a regular basis, and it warms my heart a bit that a contradiction is so clearly poised to bite him in the ass, whether said contradiction is his creation or no.

Posted by: Rocketeer at December 06, 2007 12:14 PM (GFaLW)

19 ^{I have visited many of the magnificent cathedrals in Europe[...]so many of the cathedrals now stand as the postcard backdrop to
societies just too busy or too ‘enlightened’ to venture inside and
kneel in prayer.}

You win, Romney. You win.

Posted by: JB at December 06, 2007 12:20 PM (i1jdV)

20 ^{Our greatness would not long endure without judges who respect the
foundation of faith upon which our constitution rests. I will take care
to separate the affairs of government from any religion, but I will not
separate us from “the God who gave us liberty.”}

Case closed about the controversy of his religion as far as I'm concerned.

Posted by: JB at December 06, 2007 12:23 PM (i1jdV)

21 JB,

Were you ever personally concerned? I think this plays well to some folks who were predisposed to like Romney or just not care about this issue. Did it actually convert anyone who was on the fence or opposed to him on the basis of his religion?

Posted by: Drew at December 06, 2007 12:29 PM (hlYel)

22 Romney will be slayed by the Ds if he gets the nomination.
The Blacks and the priesthood issue will be the death nail. Mormons, who mostly support Romney, are in denial on this issue. They have moved along but to most people the 70s is just too near.

He has no chance of beating a D and will get his nuts placed in a meat grinder in the process.

Posted by: Uniball at December 06, 2007 12:31 PM (27iEn)

23 Mormons = kooky sect. That's exactly the problem.

Know what else is a kooky sect and a problem? Protestantism. I mean really, it is a religion started by a major anti-Semite (Luther) and propagated by a guy who cut his wives heads off (Henry VIII). You people dance around with and kiss rattlesnakes, eschew medical advancements (CS), blabber gibberish (so called talking in tongues), and have elevated fleecing the elderly and poor to an art form (tele-evangelism). And 1600 years later, you are still a bunch of Jew haters (divestment from Israel, e.g., Methodists).

Posted by: aoshq janitorial & escort service at December 06, 2007 12:43 PM (qfU/o)

He has no chance of beating a D and will get his nuts placed in a meat grinder in the process.

Again his record means nothing to his critics.

Posted by: polynikes at December 06, 2007 12:49 PM (m2CN7)

25 Again his record means nothing to his critics.

I'd be an enthusiastic Mitt guy right now if his record were a bit more consistent. Actually, I'd even be happy if he kept one of his older liberal views just to show some commitment.

Posted by: Drew at December 06, 2007 12:53 PM (hlYel)

26 They are all fucking kooky in my book:
Virgin Birth
Resurrection
God on earth
The Flood
Miracles
Paul

Why don't you just believe in Zeus for fucks sake.

Seriously, the kookiness of the Mormons is not that far off from the kookiness of mainstream Christianity or catholicism.

Posted by: Uniball at December 06, 2007 12:55 PM (27iEn)

27 I love the core teachings of Christianity but as an agnostic I really don't get this bickering between Christian groups. It is so fucking similar to arguing over sports teams, the differences are fucking ridiculous to me.

IMO it all comes down to power.

Posted by: Uniball at December 06, 2007 12:58 PM (27iEn)

28 By the core teachings I am referring to loving your neighbor, turning the other cheek and all that shit.

Posted by: Uniball at December 06, 2007 01:00 PM (27iEn)

Drew my comment was directed at the notion that he could not beat a democrat. It appears that he has proven that he can in one of the most liberal of states. As for his record not being consistent, he had governed exactly how he said he would govern. He has evolved in some of his present positions as have all the candidates. His reasons for doing so are credible in my book as they reflect some of my own changes and are based on the same reasons. Fred has changed his opinion on abortion and McCain-Feingold. Rudy has changed his opinion on almost everything.

As an aside my wish scenario is that Romney takes the nomination and Duncan Hunter accepts his offer to be his running mate.

Posted by: polynikes at December 06, 2007 01:10 PM (m2CN7)

30 will get his nuts placed in a meat grinder in the process.

Always about the testicles with you, isn't it, Uniball. Jealous?

Posted by: wiserbud at December 06, 2007 01:17 PM (wWwJR)

31 Polynikes, if Romney wins the nomination then I'll vote for him, but I'd feel dirtier than if I had to vote for McCain. I'm very bitter about the man; he spent exactly ZERO political capital to try to build the party in MA, and was de facto governor only two years. The selfishness I saw him exhibit while governing (well, half-time anyway) this state will not do for me in a President.

Posted by: Rocketeer at December 06, 2007 01:18 PM (GFaLW)

32 Drew my comment was directed at the notion that he could not beat a democrat. It appears that he has proven that he can in one of the most liberal of states.

That's an interesting point.

I don't remember where I read it but I keep coming back to a quote I saw about Mitt...he's a technocrat running as an ideologue. I think there's a good bit of truth to that. He's a manager (and apparently a pretty damn good one).

I think the best one could hope for from Mitt is not leading a conservative revolution but that he'll manage things and come down on the conservative side all other things being equal. I don't think he'll do that out of strong conviction but rather because that's what he'll have been hired to do. I am not real comfortable with that notion.

The one thing I still like about Bush is his willingness, bordering on existential need, to act on conviction for the most part.

Posted by: Drew at December 06, 2007 01:21 PM (hlYel)

33 Wiserbud,
Someone posted that line yesterday and it literally made me laugh out loud. The thing I love about this place is it has some of the funniest posters I have ever read. Like working comedian level comedy.

It is about the PEN confound it the PEN:
http://www.uniball-na.com/

Posted by: Uniball at December 06, 2007 01:25 PM (27iEn)

34 Rocketeer I appreciate your input. Do you have any specific examples? I try not to defend things that shouldn't be defended. Specifically I like the his stances in MA regard to licensing, english immersion, in state tution, parental consent, stem cell and limiting the liberal agenda as best as anyone could. Am I wrong on these items? Thanks.

Posted by: polynikes at December 06, 2007 01:26 PM (m2CN7)

I really don't get this bickering between Christian groups.

Well, check out aoshq janitor.

started by a major anti-Semite - calvinism, lutheranism

propagated by a guy who cut his wives heads off - episcopalian/anglican

You people dance around with and kiss rattlesnakes - charismatics

eschew medical advancements - christian scientists

blabber gibberish - pentecostals and charismatics

and have elevated fleecing the elderly and poor to an art form - charismatics, pentecostals, baptists and fundementalist evangelicals.

And 1600 years later, you are still a bunch of Jew haters - methodists, episcopalian/anglican,

Well...now you know what they're all arguing about. It's not exactly like arguing about sports teams when the charismatic pentecostal says "Jesus gives me the power to channel the voice of god and drink Drain-O!" and the baptist says "Dude, your fuckin nuts"

Posted by: Entropy at December 06, 2007 01:49 PM (m6c4H)

36 Someone posted that line yesterday

Sorry, I must have missed that. I hate to steal someone else's material.

Posted by: wiserbud at December 06, 2007 01:58 PM (IHbof)

37 plus, I just like to see you respond with the link to the pen every single time.

It's as much fun as watching Rosetta lose it's mind when we question it's gender and/or sexuality.

Posted by: wiserbud at December 06, 2007 02:00 PM (IHbof)

Polynikes, I think you're misreading my objection to Mitt. I would agree that his stances on many specific policy items conformed to my own, but I was frustrated by his lack of effort - actually, desire - to use the bully pulpit the Corner Office provided to select, groom & aggessively support Republican candidates for the legislature and other state offices. He was simply too afraid of associating with potential losers downticket, unwilling even to help Republicans engage Democratic candidates in elections - even in realtively strong Rep districts like my own. Every time - every time - I walked into a voting booth during Romney's time in office, over 50% of the elective offices on the ballot were uncontested, with a Dem running. It was his job as the highest elected Republican in the state to make certain it didn't happen, and that is absolutely unforgiveable to me. At best, it was laziness, and at worst, it was because he simply wanted to retain all his political capital for himself. That's what I'm getting at.

Posted by: Rocketeer at December 06, 2007 02:14 PM (GFaLW)

Rocketeer, isn't that the main job of the State Chairman of the Republican party? Anyway its my understanding that Romney made a big effort in 2004 to get more Republicans elected and it was a democrat blowout. I didn't know what happened in 2006 until I found this article and I assume that you are not happy that he did not make the same effort at that time. I just don't know if I would place all the blame on Romney, but I see your point.

http://www.nysun.com/article/44190?page_no=1

Posted by: polynikes at December 06, 2007 03:02 PM (m2CN7)

40 When the Governor's Republican, he's the State Chair, regardless of whatever other yob may be collecting the paycheck. And in 2004, Romney did the absolute minimum he could to "help" Republicans on the ballot. He outright ignored many pretty strong candidates. I realize 2004 in MA Repubs were running against the tide, but his lack of effort was inexcusable.

Posted by: Rocketeer at December 06, 2007 04:18 PM (GFaLW)

41 aoshq janitorial & escort service,

Sounds like you've confused a tiny slice of Pentacostals, themselves a subset of Protestantism, with Protestants in general. The number of churches whose members "dance around with snakes" probably numbers a couple of hundred at most, I'd guess, and almost all of them in the hills of Kentucky and West Virginia.

The Anglicans are Protestants... they don't handle snakes. Neither do the Methodists, the Presbyterians, the Lutherans, or the Baptists. Very, very few of them speak in tongues.

As to the sins of Henry and Luther... well... denigrating a religion because some of its proponents were sinners misses the whole point. The church is supposed to be a hospital for sinners, which we all are. It's what makes us human, and it's what makes us need a savior. Without sin, we'd have no need of Christ in the first place.

Step back for a bit from the question of whether or not YOU are a Christian, or a deist, even religious at all. The point here regarding Mormonism is similar to what the point would be if, say, Lieberman came out and started promoting himself as conservative. Are some of his positions the same as many conservatives? Sure. But there's that (D) after his name. Should that matter? What is a conservative? Can a conservative have a (D) after his name? This is the same thing with Romney. He implies that his faith is Christian, but the Book of Mormon has Jesus walking around America. It has us, after we die, becoming divine ourselves. And there's lots more where that came from. This is more than the debate between Roman Catholics and Protestants about the authority of the church, or whether we're saved by faith plus works, or by faith alone. This goes down to the core of what Christians believe, the truth claims they make, and what the Mormons claim... and a lot of it is simply irreconcilable, which is a nice way of saying, "Somebody ain't telling the truth."

Posted by: Greg Griffith at December 06, 2007 06:47 PM (L+RCs)

42
No, the point is that you are more than happy to denigrate Mormonism but WHINE like a little baby when the tables are turned and your own whacky cult religious beliefs are exposed.

"Somebody ain't telling the truth."

Yeah -- you.

Posted by: aoshq janitorial & escort service at December 06, 2007 06:58 PM (5W7JJ)

43 Errrrr.... no, it's that you don't understand the point. It's like someone holding up a can of Pepsi and saying, "This is Coke." You may think it's silly and pointless to drink any soft drink, and that's fine. The problem is that one is definitely not the other, and you should be suspect of anyone who says Pepsi is Coke.

I'm not asking you to believe what I believe, or even to believe that Christianity is any better or more true than Mormonism. All I'm trying to point out is that - whatever your personal opinion of Christianity, whether you believe or not - Mormonism and Christianity are not the same thing. Whether they are or not should not be the point of the debate - they are not. End of story. Whether Romney's being a Mormon has anything to do with the man's ability to lead the country should be the point of the debate, and Romney went a long way today toward making the argument that it shouldn't. However, he asked a question (what is his understanding of Jesus Christ) that, if followed to its logical conclusion, can arrive only at the answer that he is not a Christian. All I'm trying to point out here is what the community of thinking Christians makes of this, so that our small corner of moronland isn't surprised when people whose intellects they respect continue to point this out.

Posted by: Greg Griffith at December 06, 2007 10:36 PM (L+RCs)

44
We got it. You're a bigot and are blind to your own bizarre beliefs and practices. You want to discuss numbminding theology -- hotair is the place. They have at least one religion free for all thread a day.

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