<i>Heartache</i>: Mary Katharine Ham sides with the "deciders".

Heartache: Mary Katharine Ham sides with the "deciders".

Mary Katharine is a friend of mine. I take no pleasure in publicly disagreeing with her. But, I think her take on the CNN/YouTube debate is wrong. So at the risk of being grumpy old Lou Grant to her "turn the world on with her smile" Mary Richards, I'm going to tell you why.

Now, MKH titles her latest blog entry "Should We Republicans, Young and Old, Pretty Much Confirm the Old Fogey Republican Stereotype for all time by Torpedoing New Technology Experiments and Debates in Light of the Problems with this one?" She admits that she is intentionally tweaking folks with the title. And it is a rhetorically funny question.

Except that I'm here to answer "Yes."

UPDATE:If any of you are interested, MKH just responded to me over at her place.

She gave as good as she got. It's fair. Read her piece, and if you disagree please be polite.

She's a friend, and in this instance if I see a familiar name from here crossing the line in her comments, I'll bring out the AoS ban hammer.

MKH raises three points in her piece. I'll address them in order.

I've never bought into the idea that YouTube debates were a revolutionary format-- different but not revolutionary--mostly because moderators still pick the questions, and technology's transformative only to an extent. I'm not a tech triumphalist.

Quite simply, they aren't a revolutionary format. There really isn't anything to buy into here. They make for more engaging TV, perhaps, than watching folks stand up in the audience to ask their questions. And, they are more compelling than watching a spit-flecked Chris Matthews bark out 20 questions from a blue index card. But the notion of citizens directly addressing questions to candidates is nothing new. Go to a town hall meeting sometime to see it done the "old fashioned way."

But there is something happening here, and, unlike Dylan's "Mr. Jones" I think Mary Katharine's title reveals that she knows what it is. It's the elevation of style over substance. Of the hip and the trendy over the old and routine. And, sadly, it seems that's the core of her support for it: the desire to be seen as "cool".

For her next point is this, notice the "hipper than thou" snark contained within:

I've also never bought into the idea that YouTube debates debase politics, partly because they're already plenty debased, and partly because political YouTubers are-- to a great extent-- regular Americans who want to be engaged and get a chance to ask their own questions of a candidate that they wouldn't necessarily otherwise get. That's not debasement, that's democracy.

Did you see it? Sure, a little cynicism about politics never hurt anyone. It's part and parcel of the Conservative skepticism about government that most of us at this site share.

But to basically state "hey, politics is so low, nothing that pops up on YouTube can hurt it anymore" is hardly a ringing endorsement. In fact, it's a rather destructive, dare I say, libertine view of the world. If politics is so debased, MKH, shouldn't we be more concerned about elevating discourse rather than rationalizing or justifying its descent to the lowest common denominator?

What you've done is set a standard that now justifies pretty much any negative ad anyone could ever desire to run. Who cares if Candidate A runs an ad falsely accusing Candidate B of necrophilia 3 days prior to the election? Politics are debased, and that commercial can't possibly make people more disgusted with the system, could it? Would you condemn that ad? If so, on what grounds? That's it's false? Well, so were the phonies pretending to be people that they are not, pushing issues that really don't concern them on YouTube. That it debases politics? Too bad, you don't apparently care. Which is a shame: such an ad should be condemned. We should not hesitate to call demeaning things demeaning for fear of risking street cred.

Of course YouTube debates debase politics. Their entire premise is based on bringing politics to the level of a carnival freakshow. Talking snowmen don't belong on a stage addressing questions to men and women seeking elected office. It belittles the process. And yet, the talking snowman was picked. Why?

Exactly because he WASN'T one of "the regular Americans" you seem to believe they are. Are there regular Americans who read blogs and create videos for YouTube? Of course there are (present company excluded, of course). But YouTube places a different emphasis on the matter: it becomes not "I want my question to be heard" as much as it becomes "I want my question to be aired/seen."

And why is this an important distinction? Because it allows the "deciders" to set the framing of the issue. Do I care about 2nd Amendment rights? You bet I do.

But someone who would have presented an regular (albeit, incredibly handsome) image like me wasn't picked to ask a question. A guy who looked like he ran a "compound" in Idaho, complete with a 'do rag, pump action shotgun and crossed bandoliers was.

So what image comes across to the people watching? A guy in a suit and tie, sitting at a desk, calmly asking a thoughtful question or a guy who looked like he was a bad hairday away from shooting up Columbine? Still think it doesn't matter?

It isn't "democracy" in action, MKH. Unless the votes of the CNN staff in selecting the clips are the democracy you are referring to in your sentence.

Now you sort of acknowledge this point of concern. But, again, you default to a position I can only describe as "Hipness uber alles."

But ultimately, I don’t think there was any good political way to decline to do the YouTube debate. I was talking to some of the YouTubers at the debate, and asking what they thought about the idea that we’re debasing the political process or that the talking snowman distracts from real issues, etc. She said:
“It’s up to the candidate to outshine the question. If he can’t outshine the snowman, maybe he shouldn’t be on stage.”
It’s true. If you turn the debate down, you look not as if you’re lifting up the level of debate in American politics. You look like you’re afraid to face down an animated snowman, and you cement an unhelpful image of Republicans as irretrievably unhip and the right-wing web as irretrievably mired in its inferiority.

There was a fine political way to decline the YouTube debate, MKH. Romney (to his credit) should have stuck to his guns when he initially declined to appear. He was right then. You think GOP voters would punish Republicans for telling CNN to shove it? No more than Dem voters hold their FOX boycott against their candidates.

And, I'm sorry, but I don't think that protecting the "image of the right wing web" is particularly relevant to much of anything. Tell me, how "hip" was Ronald Reagan? How "hip" was Margaret Thatcher? How "hip" was Barry Goldwater?

If you ask me, "hipness" is a vastly overrated quality in a political candidate. But then again, I wasn't much impressed with Bill Clinton playing saxophone on Arsenio either. Or when he "hiply" answered the question about "boxers or briefs." I thought that was debasing, actually.

Oh, right.

Look...I know you have a lot vested in this internet video thing. And you do a great job. You know I hold you in nothing but the highest regard, both personally and professionally.

But it's disappointing to see Conservatives worshipping at the altar of "cool", as you appear to be doing here. To treasure style and appearance over substance.

For, if college teaches us anything, it is that the Conservatives who do this are the Conservatives who end up on the path that leads to Libertarianism.

And you can do so much better. You usually do.

Posted by: Jack M. at 10:00 PM

Comments

1 The bloom is finally off the rose, huh?

Jack M files papers?

Posted by: EC at December 02, 2007 10:11 PM (j2Tjh)

2 Ha, Slowhand!

Nah, she's still one of my peeps. Friends can disagree on a blog that is widely read by contemporaries who run in the same circles and still be friends, right?

Aww, shooooot....What have I done?

Posted by: Jack M. at December 02, 2007 10:15 PM (Rt2uy)

3 Mrs Ham you're a cutie and all but I'd call a CB-Radio debate in 1980 cheesy too. New technology and trendy doesn't mean we ought to leap on the bandwagon.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 02, 2007 10:26 PM (hfyfI)

4 She's a grown-up and is likely able to take some heat.

Posted by: eman at December 02, 2007 10:26 PM (2xtuh)

5 Why would they want to narrow the pool of questioners down to only geeks? Because in the real world, only geeks make you tube videos. Or pornographers.

Posted by: commander0 at December 02, 2007 10:26 PM (V8K0a)

^{Mary Katharine is a friend of mine.}

Friends don't get restraining orders against friends.

I know very hot brunette big-breasted women. Very hot brunette big-breasted women are friends of mine. You, sir, are no very hot brunette big-breasted woman, nor do you have any.

But you still have us. Same time, same place, same German paratrooper costume with the hole in back? You bring the vinegar and nipple clamps, I'll bring the cucumber.

Posted by: TheEJS at December 02, 2007 10:31 PM (KINJc)

I agree Jack. Hip-ness is a fine attribute to have in unscripted moments, but it's hardly indicative of any leadership quality, something MKH seems not to grok.

I haven't watched any of the debates yet though. I don't know if this year is any different, but from what I've heard, they continue to be a series of "gotcha" media moments when it's a Republican debate, and remarkably fawning for the Dem debates.

Not missing much, from my perspective. No matter how well McCain may be doing now, based on the debates, it doesn't take away my determination to never place a vote for him, as his debate performance doesn't change the many issues that he is just plain wrong on. That he is having some sort of resurgence serves more to invalidate the value of debates.

Posted by: krakatoa at December 02, 2007 10:32 PM (rZa+A)

8 I thought we spent a few days (here) pointing out how CNN compromised their credibility selecting questioners and questions, not that the format in and of itself was shitty or anything.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at December 02, 2007 10:37 PM (FXakj)

9 We did Dave.

But I think the format is awful too.

And that was the angle that interested me here. I think I broached it in one of the comment threads, but I just read MKH's column a little while ago and I wanted to discuss this aspect.

I could go back to epic poetry, if you prefer.

Posted by: Jack M. at December 02, 2007 10:41 PM (Rt2uy)

Does anyone have any pictures of MKH in a thong?

Posted by: George Turner at December 02, 2007 10:45 PM (jzBuz)

^{I thought we spent a few days (here) pointing out how CNN compromised their credibility selecting questioners and questions, not that the format in and of itself was shitty or anything.}

Jack's a very special child. He'll get around to dissecting the 2006 election in... about 2 years.

Posted by: TheEJS at December 02, 2007 10:46 PM (KINJc)

12 Jack, I respect MCH, however, you are right about this one.
Guitar playing morons, planted questions, the whole thing was cheesy and beneath the respect of a serious republican candidate. We should set the bar, not lower ourselves to limbo under it. By the way, I am one of the republicans who would have loved the candidates to tell CNN to "shove it". I think most of the questions were asked in a no win way to be used as material in the democratic candidates ads.

Posted by: mare at December 02, 2007 11:07 PM (zFQE/)

Oh yeah, that shithead with the guitar, and in general people making speeches instead of asking questions.... that was ass.

I'd love to see em ask each other questions.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at December 02, 2007 11:12 PM (FXakj)

14 I'd love to see em ask each other questions.

I'd love to see a round robin bloggingheads type thing, but that'll never happen.

What I think would be great would be a debate that was online with the questions being asked by a panel of bloggers. They could solicit questions from readers and then let them follow up.

Since an online debate probably wouldn't get as big a viewership as some of these cable ones, my thought would be each blog that participated in streaming/playing it, would provide each candidate with a donate button so the candidates could raise funds while the debate was going on. Instant feedback!

Posted by: Drew at December 02, 2007 11:17 PM (hlYel)

15 MKH can take a nothing day and make it seem worthwhile. And she's got spunk.

...but let her part from Mary Richards in this way - A Mary Richard's party would always flop, because she tried to make it cool. Sometimes it's best to be what you really are, and not leave the cooking to Sue Ellen. 'Cause she will screw you over.

Posted by: I hate spunk at December 02, 2007 11:28 PM (twVOg)

16 "you cement an unhelpful image of Republicans as irretrievably unhip"

I think "Aunt Nell" cemented it back when she told Julie Kanisky that she dances like a Republican. Oh that woman was hilarious!

Posted by: Joanie at December 02, 2007 11:32 PM (Yyy1m)

17 Excuse me for the error. I meant Katie, not that nerdlicker Julie.

Posted by: Joanie at December 02, 2007 11:33 PM (Yyy1m)

18 Heh..."I hate spunk"...I got that MTM reference.

LG: "You know what kid, you've got spunk."
MR: "Why thank you, Mr. Grant."
LG: "I hate spunk."

There was also a great National Lampoon "letter" about spunk...but I'll save that for another time.

Posted by: Jack M. at December 02, 2007 11:39 PM (Rt2uy)

Idea: Have a Republican Blog Debate. Get several of the biggest rightwing bloggers to write/solicit/select questions and moderate, and have the candidates spend a few hours writing responses. The format would be basically like comments threads here, with the original question in place of the post, and hopefully without all the complaints about the new comments thingy acting glitchy. That way, all the candidates could reply to the question, and to each other, and viewer/readers could skip all the answers from people they weren't interested in. Use donate buttons like Drew suggested to keep score. And all the blogs involved could host reaction threads, so the candidates could find out exactly what the audience liked or didn't like. Ideally, some or all of the candidates would debate with commenters...

I predict something like this will happen... in the 2056 elections. As of now, I don't think enough people pay attention to the blogosphere to make this seem worth the candidates' time, but someday there's going to be enough of us and enough people listening to us that serious candidates will take the blogosphere seriously.

Actually, this is probably very similar to what Drew had in mind and I just didn't understand what he meant very well. Oh well. A good idea's still good the second time around, right?

Posted by: Calix at December 02, 2007 11:40 PM (8d3U/)

20 OT:

Karl Rove gives Obama advice on how to beat Hillary. His advice is sound, but will be disregarded just because it comes from him, and Obama would rather be caught polishing Hillary's muff than taking advice from Rove. So I wonder what game Rove is playing by openly giving unsolicited advice to Obama. I wish I could gaze into his mind.

Posted by: Tushar D at December 02, 2007 11:52 PM (9ULFg)

Great analysis on your part Jack. I usually like MKH's work but when I read this I disagreed with most of it.

I can already see the next internet police segment though. The blog war goes national on The Factor!

Posted by: Gern Blanston at December 02, 2007 11:55 PM (q8DwV)

22
As far as your premise on topic is concerned, agreed on all counts. However, one of your statements rang a bell with me:

"But it's disappointing to see Conservatives worshipping at the altar of "cool", as you appear to be doing here. To treasure style and appearance over substance."

Funny, but that exactly seems to be why most conservatives don't like Fred.
IMO, Fred seems to be all substance with little energy spent enhancing style or apearance.

Pity that campaigning calls for all three, but it still does not explain to me the failure of conservatives to warm to his substance, of which there is plenty.

Posted by: West at December 03, 2007 12:06 AM (FrxUs)

23 The format is fine. But sooner or later Repubilcans (candidates and leadership) have to confront CNN's dishonesty. No one wants to elect a party that's terrified of a freaking second place news network.

Posted by: corvan at December 03, 2007 12:19 AM (1g+FW)

24 Why doesn't Fox News just handle the Republican debates and CNN/MSNBC/Democrap Underground handle the Democratic ones? Its obviously that liberals don't understand conservatives at all.

Posted by: Dirk at December 03, 2007 12:36 AM (AJx67)

25 Good post Jack! Couldn't agree more. Hipness is indeed overrated in the arena of political thought.

Posted by: Rob at December 03, 2007 01:31 AM (ppZOk)

26 DiT: "I thought we spent a few days (here) pointing out how CNN compromised their credibility..."

Heh. Good one. Like they had any to compromise. Maybe CNN's learned how to Google the definition. We probably shouldn't challenge them with trying Webster-Online yet. Baby steps required.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at December 03, 2007 01:37 AM (Y0gTb)

Well I sure am glad someone else noticed that the whole U-Tube questions were just glitter - that the CNN people decided which questions got asked, not some random system or anything. It's the exact same crappy questions they'd have asked anyhow, only with some lame-ass posing the question into his webcam.

This makes it all the more inexcusable that they missed all those planted questions! Alas, they didn't know or care who asked them, they just sifted through the vids until they found one they liked, doesn't really matter who asked it (although I'm sure they had a checklist. Female q? check Brown person q? check Hispanic Q? double check)

I gave up halfway through, it was all a sad sad display of form over function. Too bad MKH fell for it.

Posted by: 5Cats at December 03, 2007 02:01 AM (Knaf0)

28
I put no stock in the opinion of a girl only a few years out of college and with no life experiences. I've never understand you morons constant fawning over everything she said/wrote.

Posted by: aoshq janitorial & escort service at December 03, 2007 03:10 AM (LtRKL)

29 Yep. The MSM (Deciders^TM) has mastered in record time the technique of laundering its old bias through the "undecideds" via new technology.

Well played, Mr. Turner.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at December 03, 2007 03:16 AM (Y0gTb)

30 No life experiences?

MKH lives in a nunnery?

Posted by: moviegique at December 03, 2007 06:30 AM (1y5Vr)

31 #3: "CB radio debate in 1980"; that's good. John Anderson would've embraced it just before he showed up on SNL with the B-52's.

Posted by: Michael Rittenhouse at December 03, 2007 08:23 AM (RB6ck)

32 "polishing Hillary's muff"

Barf.

Posted by: Mike in Chicago at December 03, 2007 08:36 AM (/L1AV)

I also agree with JackM. And I wish that rather than discussing the debate ad infinitum, the discussion was more about how none of the networks will discuss all of the plants in the last two debates.

It is sad that MKH-who I admire-is falling into the trap of thinking more about the style of the debates than the substance, and rating the debates as such. Lipstick on a pig is just lipstick on a pig. CNN should be shamed.

Posted by: molly at December 03, 2007 08:42 AM (rpSOw)

YouTube wasn't the problem; at least, not directly. It was CNN (as always). Making a movie of yourself asking a question isn't high-tech or 'hip.' It could have happened at a 1932 presidential debate had someone thought of it back then. They had the technology. Maybe they did think of it but concluded "What's the point?"

The problem, MKH, is that most of the questions at the recent GOP debate would never have been asked by true Republicans. It would never have occured to us to ask such questions. Unfortunately, Blitzer, Matthews and Cooper etc. cannot bring themselves to ask questions from right-field, not even at a GOP debate. So here's what they did: choose mostly left-field questions with a sprinkling of right-field questions from whacked out crazies.. That's the ticket! A double whammy.

I'm tired of my fellow conservatives accusing CNN of incompetence or sloppiness. CNN knew exactly what they were doing. They were no more 'sloppy' than Sandy Burglar.

Posted by: Michael Laurence at December 03, 2007 09:21 AM (M0QEs)

Jack,

MKH is cute, but sometimes her youth is quite apparent.

I agree with you.

Posted by: drjohn at December 03, 2007 09:43 AM (Ulci1)

36 Jack M you need to give up the poetry and contribute to this site with your analysis of various topics. I'm sure I won't always agree but I know I will get an intellectually thought out position that will make me have to think about my own position. In this case, there is nothing I would disagree with and would only add that I'm not looking for a President to be like me or the general public . I'd prefer someone that understands the average joe but also is obviously head and shoulders above him in all the skills needed to be POTUS. He'll get his respect precisely because its obvious and not because he lowers himself to a cool / hip, I'm just like you standard.

Posted by: polynikes at December 03, 2007 10:12 AM (m2CN7)

37 The problem with the YouTube format is that the media gets it both ways - keeping control over which questions are selected while distancing themselves from bias of the questions that they select.

It's one thing to have a reporter ask a jackassed question - at least then you can pin the biased nature of it directly on him. But when reporters are allowed to sock puppet their own leftist beliefs by letting "regular people" do their dirty work for them, they've put one more roadblock between themselves and accountability. It's nothing more than a smokescreen. I want their unhinged leftism front and center for all to see.

Honestly, I'm irritated by technophiles who reflexively think that new=better. That's how liberals think - arrogantly substituting their own limited vision for thousands of years of tradition developed through the collective wisdom of mankind. The word conservative has a meaning, after all.

And as far as I'm concerned, "hip" is a word that is roughly synonymous with smug, self-satisfied asshole. It's nothing I aspire to, and certainly not a concept that has any rightful place within the sphere of the political process. What the fuck are we, a bunch of teenagers who's most desperate desire is to be granted a seat at the lunch table where the cool kids eat? Fuck all that. I'm an adult, not a child. Leave that shit to the liberals.

Posted by: Warden at December 03, 2007 10:36 AM (rZ5uY)

38 What the fuck are we, a bunch of teenagers who's most desperate desire is to be granted a seat at the lunch table where the cool kids eat?

Yup. That's what politics is nowadays, Warden: high school.

Writ large.

Posted by: OregonMuse at December 03, 2007 10:48 AM (JpJT3)

Mike Huckabee bragged about how he pardoned Keith Richards to Rolling Stone magazine. We care? Warden is right- "Leave that shit to the liberals." 'Cuz it's just gonna turn into a Who's Dorkier Contest. In a Presidential game of "paper/rock/scissors", REO Speedwagon beats Steely Dan.

Posted by: Joanie at December 03, 2007 11:05 AM (Z9tCp)

40 Jack M you need to give up the poetry and contribute to this site with your analysis of various topics.

I hear ya polynikes, but sometimes there just isn't any way to contain the muse.

Posted by: Jack M. at December 03, 2007 11:13 AM (Rt2uy)

And as far as I'm concerned, "hip" is a word that is roughly synonymous with smug, self-satisfied asshole

Which is why it's important to the media.

Give MKH 5 years, she'll be a "moderate." Just watch...

Posted by: Jay at December 03, 2007 11:14 AM (BNlV7)

42 The theme of this post seems to be:

But it's disappointing to see Conservatives worshipping at the altar of "cool", as you appear to be doing here.

Which is big time ridiculous on this blog. This blog is nothing but a feeble attempt to be current and ironic. Maxim lite raunch and dusty old videos are the bulk of the content with some pretty sketchy punditry and one star cub reporter-fu investimidigation of molehills to mountains, Joe Bob says check it out.

Are you really ready to throw in the towel on all that you z grade meme monkeys have built just becasue you got a little burned? I thin what you are most mad at is that a lot of people saw it, thought the questions were questions Repubs should be asked and then they all looked like real freaks answering them. Fortunately you have this ginned up scandal to whine about so you can ignore what really has you freaked out and that is that your party looks like a fucking freak show.

Anyway you are a complete hypocrite for attacking this chick for being concerned about your brand, Don't be so teh gay and stuck on stupid FY,NQ!!!! All this blog is is brand awareness. As far as Reagan not being hip, he was a fucking actor moron, he was definitely hipper than Carter or Mondale. Thatcher? Haha, wtf does that have to do with anything? This place is fracturing just like the GOP, nice to see.

Malor/Greenwald '08

Posted by: tommy at December 03, 2007 11:17 AM (sgF4t)

43 Come over here Tommy, and I will show you some molehill kicking.

Posted by: I hate spunk at December 03, 2007 11:26 AM (twVOg)

44 tommy gives me a Digi-Boner.

Posted by: Joanie at December 03, 2007 11:26 AM (Z9tCp)

45 Well, "Tommy" was deaf, dumb, and blind.

It's nice to know The Who were so prescient!

Posted by: Jack M. at December 03, 2007 11:26 AM (Rt2uy)

46 That was excellent, Warden.

Posted by: VJay at December 03, 2007 11:27 AM (gQ+XA)

47 tommy, you stupid little cunt, please try to keep up. This blog is filled with self-admitted geeks, dorks, and nerds. Do you think that someone joking about a +5 truncheon of strength is asserting his superior coolness?

Go toddle off to your anger management therapy, twit.

Posted by: Warden at December 03, 2007 11:33 AM (rZ5uY)

48 Go fuck yourself tommy.

Posted by: Cool Cheney at December 03, 2007 11:34 AM (m2CN7)

I thin what you are most mad at is that a lot of people saw it, thought the questions were questions Repubs should be asked and then they all looked like real freaks answering them.

I think we're better qualified to determine which questions should or should not be asked of Republicans at a Republican primary debate, retard. You silly little girls spend all your time creating these ridiculous caricatures of Republicans (a "freak show", don't you know -- unlike the party that fellates the enviro-nazis, the Marxists, the rage-against-the-male-machine womyn, and various other mental patient groups), and then bend over backwards doing everything in your power, no matter how disingenuous or sleazy, to reinforce that caricature.

Because you're insecure. Because you're juvenile. Because mommy and daddy either ignored you or grossly overvalued your idiotic opinions.

But thanks for stopping by.

Posted by: VJay at December 03, 2007 11:34 AM (gQ+XA)

50 This place is fracturing just like the GOP, nice to see.

They are? Be honest with yourself: You wouldn't be over here trolling if you didn't fear us. Now, FY, NQ.

Posted by: aoshq janitorial & escort service at December 03, 2007 11:41 AM (LtRKL)

MKH is wrong. YouTube debates are simply not an adult concept. We're electing a President here. Let's take it seriously.

And she has enormous teeth. It's like watching Mister Ed.

flame me!

Posted by: Barry in CO at December 03, 2007 12:07 PM (aJtCl)

What I really meant to say up there was, "I love cock."

Sorry to waste all that extra bandwidth.

Posted by: tommy the tard at December 03, 2007 12:18 PM (f7A+e)

53 Lipstick on a pig is just lipstick on a pig.

Hey! I've never been anywhere near Hillary!

Posted by: Lipstick at December 03, 2007 01:06 PM (3y+L6)

54 Barry in CO,

Look, there is no need for the personal comments. She's a friend, after all, and I don't want this thread to become a dumping ground for crap like that.

Besides, she's has, in my opinion, a great smile. So I'm only going to agree with 50% of your comment anyway.

Posted by: Jack M. at December 03, 2007 01:06 PM (Rt2uy)

55 The format has always been goofy, and I've always thought that it was demeaning and undignified (and unredeemably trendy). It's like having the presidential candidates go on Dance Fever and chat with Denny Terrio. It's like having each one compete on America's Got Talent. It's like having a candidate show up on MTV and be asked about his underwear.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 03, 2007 03:00 PM (hfyfI)

I keeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeding!

She hasn't been on Redeye in a while for whatever reason.

Posted by: Barry in CO at December 03, 2007 05:02 PM (aJtCl)

57 I really like MKH and she has brought many smiles to many days for me.

She has a very valid point about the hipness factor and the Republicans being seen as old fuddy duddies. The YouTube debate could have been handled with class and been structured much better. How the campaign managers of these candidates allowed CNN to pull this line of juvenile crap is totally beyond me.

It won't happen again (God I hope) and CNN will be a LONG time in living this episode down.

Posted by: RFA at December 03, 2007 05:03 PM (EO3tB)

58 Awww shit...

MKH has seen this thread and has now taken Jack M to task on her blog.

Looks like the affair is over.

Posted by: EC at December 03, 2007 05:37 PM (j2Tjh)

59 If any of you are interested, MKH just responded to me over at her place.

She gave as good as she got. It's fair. Read her piece, and if you disagree please be polite.

She's a friend, and in this instance if I see a familiar name from here crossing the line in her comments, I'll bring out the ban hammer.

Posted by: Jack M. at December 03, 2007 05:40 PM (Rt2uy)

60 Jack,

This calls for another epic. Just crossout S. Sena and write MKH over one of your working drafts. Hopefully she'll accept it! Good luck, bro.

Posted by: EC at December 03, 2007 05:44 PM (j2Tjh)

What's the friggin' point of being conservative if I can't stand athwart shitty ideas like "YouTube" debates and yell "stop!"

If that makes me old and "out of touch" then so be it. You see the way the kids are wearing their pants now? And you want to be accepted by that crowd?

GET OFF MY LAWN!

Posted by: Fred at December 03, 2007 05:45 PM (ivbbD)

Wow... she uses "nuance" and agreements about semantics to say you're a troll and she's correct.

Time to re-title the post "The Taming of the Shrewd"? Or how bout "M-Kat Got F'd in the A", "Hippy Got Pwned", or just "Jack, but not that ghey ass movie with the hairy apeman Robin Williams not being funny"?

Posted by: TheEJS at December 03, 2007 05:56 PM (KINJc)

63 Jack M.,

I think you're just looking for an excuse to say, "She's a friend of mine, she's a friend of mine," over and over again.

Face it. Even if this is true, when a pretty gal says, "I like you as a friend," it doesn't mean she likes you as a friend.

Posted by: Christoph at December 03, 2007 05:57 PM (hawOV)

She hasn't been on Redeye in a while for whatever reason.

The format of the show doesn't fit her style. Waaay uptight. They should just avoid each other.

Posted by: 3rd_Bird at December 03, 2007 05:59 PM (ZegdM)

If someone comments on someone else's blog that you think is over the line, you are going to ban them on this blog? Just wow.

RWS, do you care to comment?

Posted by: polynikes at December 03, 2007 06:01 PM (m2CN7)

JackM,

She throws out the straw man argument pretty strongly and perhaps you did misunderstand her I dont know, I dont think you did. Although I think you both agree in general on a few points I think you both are approaching it from different directions.

But her argument about:

"Anyway, when Democrats avoid Fox, we rightly excoriate them for being cowardly. I don't think it's bright for our candidates to act the same. "

That is nuanced in itself. She should know that a moderated debate at FoxNews would not be showing a video of a woman with 4 kids with her and a picture of an aborted fetus asking "How can you say you are for health care for kids when you condone the murder of said children before they are born?"

Big difference....

Posted by: Sc8tt at December 03, 2007 06:06 PM (zmIQ4)

67 I think that the GOP will always be saddled with being the "fuddy duddy" party regardless of You Tube debates or their response. The GOP could run David Lee Roth and Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers and the press would call them fuddy duddies, and all the late night talk show guys would make jokes about it. Being a part of these debates or not has zero to do with that perception, being portrayed that way in every single piece of entertainment and media for forty years is to blame, and that's simply not going to change.

Even if this is true, when a pretty gal says, "I like you as a friend," it doesn't mean she likes you as a friend.

Usually it means "I wish you'd just go away." Or maybe that's just me.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 03, 2007 06:06 PM (hfyfI)

68
Friend? She calls him an acquaintance. Anyway, she's a kid so of course she likes this youtube crap. Again, I don't see why I or anyone else should care what she thinks about any topic.

Posted by: aoshq janitorial & escort service at December 03, 2007 06:18 PM (5IA13)

69 Is this part of some elaborate DC policy wonk mating ritual? If so, it's not that hot. I suggest adding alcohol.

Posted by: Drew at December 03, 2007 06:25 PM (hlYel)

70
I think JackM is a bit of a nut and MKH is way overrated, but except for the worshiping at the altar of cool and the you're better than that cracks, I don't think JackM. was/is condescending. However, HotAir commenters are alleging he is, which is ironic when you remember all the condescending posts Allahpundit has written about K. Powers. Really, no comparison. HotAir commenters clean your own house out before you bitch about Jack or AoShq.

Posted by: aoshq janitorial & escort service at December 03, 2007 06:31 PM (5IA13)

71 I don't particularly want to sign up for newsletters by registering over at Townhall, so I guess I'll have to comment here.

MKH is GREAT, and WRONG. I don't think she's deliberately using a strawman, but when she says that she supports the "average American sending in questions from around the country" format, is she aware that this is NOT what the YT/CNN debates were?

The YT/CNN debate was just another carefully controlled MSM "attack ad" disguised as a debate. It's not and never was about the format, the criticism was of the slanted selection and MSM control (especially when compared to the Dem debate).

Responding to criticism of press perfidy with a defense of the "format" isn't just a Strawman argument, it also throws in the Tin Man and the Cowardly Lion for good measure.

If being hip is more important than getting it right, then we've already lost.

And the compact, fast-paced, ADD-inspired format doesn't do much except reduce people to useless sound bytes and witty repartee. How about substantive? Hell, I'd FAR prefer a semi-fast online web-based "debate" where candidates responded to both questioners and each other over a number of hours. As important as sudden crises are, most of a President's decisions won't be made in 30 seconds or less - I'd rather see what they can come up with in an hour or overnight than "on the spot."

"On-the-spot" is clever, but clever doesn't have legs. Smart beats clever in the long run. Con-men clever, CEOs smart, if you catch my drift.

Posted by: Merovign at December 03, 2007 06:34 PM (IaYDo)

72
Now I'm just a Tropical Storm.

But as they say: In your pants!

Posted by: aoshq janitorial & escort service at December 03, 2007 06:41 PM (5IA13)

73 Merovign -

I think you (and others) are missing something. Specifically in your statement here:

MKH is GREAT, and WRONG. I don't think she's deliberately using a strawman, but when she says that she supports the "average American sending in questions from around the country" format, is she aware that this is NOT what the YT/CNN debates were?

You can quite legitimately criticize the CNN/Youtube debate as a partisan mockery; I don't think that MK is arguing that it was not seriously flawed. The main argument she focuses on is whether you think the concept of average citizens asking questions (via internet video) is legitimate. She says it is, and I agree. CNN just screwed up its editorial role, which makes that not a lot different from all the other CNN or MSNBC debates unrelated to internet video.

Imagine, for example, a Youtube/NRO debate for the GOP and a Youtube/CNN debate for the Dems.

Sounds better.

Posted by: Bill from INDC at December 03, 2007 06:48 PM (khYUg)

74 AOSHQ janitor,

I took out the comment I made that you quoted. Sorry for messing up your comment as a result.

It wasn't my intention to start or promote a blog war, or to denigrate anybody personally. And I have no interest in doing so now.

Posted by: Jack M. at December 03, 2007 06:57 PM (Rt2uy)

75 Doesn't matter, either one is undignified and won't do the job it claims to. The instant you put a news organization of any kind in charge of choosing the questions, you lose the "everyman" quality and are reduced to the same stuff every other debate is about, except with cute videos of people instead of some overpaid bingo caller.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 03, 2007 06:59 PM (hfyfI)

76 To be honest, I don't get this MKH person...(coughlightweight(cough)...sorry, but that's my Evel Knievel take.

I knew Anderson Cooper knew who the General was...and it was confirmed on Rush's show today by another guy who was supposed to give an in person question.

That was a farce...a Stalinist farce.

Posted by: E Buzz Miller-Booth at December 03, 2007 07:10 PM (v/XJX)

77 Doesn't matter, either one is undignified and won't do the job it claims to. The instant you put a news organization of any kind in charge of choosing the questions, you lose the "everyman" quality and are reduced to the same stuff every other debate is about, except with cute videos of people instead of some overpaid bingo caller.

To be honest, I thought the first questions of the debate (especially about immigration) were questions by real Republicans about issues important to Republicans that I have not heard at other debates. The second half really jumped the tracks, the worst part being the plant.

I agree that it is undignified when a citizen on internet video asks a question in a bear mask, but a citizen just asking a question via internet video is not inherently undignified, the latter of which happens quite often in townhall meetings (minus the internet).

Enforce the same standards of decorum and a national townhall meeting via internet video could be quite dignified and worthy of the presidential race.

It's ironic that blog readers are protesting so much over a medium that grants just a little bit more direct access of citizens to the political process because CNN screwed it up. Criticize that debate all you want, but I don't think it's a good idea to throw out a simple technological concept and format because of a bad iteration.

That's kind of what MSM pundits do all the time when they say "bloggers" are a bunch of undisciplined hacks.

Posted by: Bill from INDC at December 03, 2007 07:11 PM (khYUg)

78 I agree with Bill INDC.

Posted by: the snowman at December 03, 2007 07:37 PM (m2CN7)

79
It wasn't my intention to start or promote a blog war, or to denigrate anybody personally. And I have no interest in doing so now.

Your comment would not incite a blog war nor did it denigrate anyone personally. That you felt a need to delete it is just plain weird.

Posted by: aoshq janitorial & escort service at December 03, 2007 07:44 PM (5IA13)

80 It's ironic that blog readers are protesting so much over a medium that grants just a little bit more direct access of citizens to the political process because CNN screwed it up.

Nobody is protesting over the medium a lot or a little because of the CNN fiasco. People are doing two things, both of which are distinct:

1) criticizing CNN for its blatant pandering to and assistance of the Democratic party as well as it's gross attempt to characterize the GOP by the worst of caricatures.
2) calling the YouTube debates again undignified and cheesy like before the first debates ever happened earlier this year.

The opinion of these debates as being pandering and demeaning to the office isn't new, I and others have been saying it for months now. It's like having CBers call in during the Carter-Reagan debates and leave questions. It's pathetically dated and a stunt, not a serious attempt at policy making or learning more about the candidates. Just because it's trendy and new don't make it worthy of the setting or appropriate for the race.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 03, 2007 08:13 PM (hfyfI)

81 Incidentally the word you're looking for isn't "irony" that's when the real meaning is the opposite of the apparent meaning. That doesn't apply even if your analysis was accurate.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 03, 2007 08:14 PM (hfyfI)

82 Just because it's trendy and new don't make it worthy of the setting or appropriate for the race.

Trendy, new, and stupid. There is no reason for everyone to get their mug on television even if they aren't dressed up in some goofy costume. If people submit questions and a moderator asks them, more questions can be asked.

Posted by: aoshq janitorial & escort service at December 03, 2007 08:24 PM (5IA13)

^{It wasn't my intention to start or promote a blog war, or to denigrate anybody personally. And I have no interest in doing so now.}

Why not?

Posted by: TheEJS at December 03, 2007 08:45 PM (KINJc)

84 Why not?

Because I'd rather fight with Kossacks and Paultards than with people with whom I will agree most of the time.

And because I don't get a percentage of the gate.

Posted by: Jack M. at December 03, 2007 08:56 PM (Rt2uy)

The idiot with the guitar AND butter cow lady turn this gig into a circus freak show.

It's boring.

That's all I'm pointing out.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at December 03, 2007 08:56 PM (FXakj)

86
Because I'd rather fight with Kossacks and Paultards than with people with whom I will agree most of the time.

You want to risk having to have makeup sex with Kossacks and Paultards?

Posted by: aoshq janitorial & escort service at December 03, 2007 09:02 PM (5IA13)

87 Christopher Taylor:

Ironic means "characterized by often poignant difference or incongruity between what is expected and what actually is." Thus, my sentence that, "It's ironic that blog readers [who read and like blogs, which have given regular folks more of a voice in media and politics] are protesting so much over a medium that grants just a little bit more direct access of citizens to the political process because CNN screwed it up." is an exactly correct use of the term.

Now as to your point that's not off-topic nor objectively incorrect ...

calling the YouTube debates again undignified and cheesy like before the first debates ever happened earlier this year.

I disagree that the format of citizens asking questions via video is undignified and a "stunt." And I think much of the resisitance is because it is new, so it inevitably has a "stunt-like" aura.

Dan Rather thinks blogs are undignified and cheesy, btw.

Posted by: Bill from INDC at December 03, 2007 09:09 PM (khYUg)

88 And to preempt your next considered rebuke, yes, I know that I misspelled "resistance" up there, it was a typo.

Posted by: Bill from INDC at December 03, 2007 09:10 PM (khYUg)

89
Dan Rather thinks blogs are undignified and cheesy, btw.

And sometimes even Dan Rather is right. You're posting on aoshq, remember? The blog where pooters, dirty sanchez, and salad tossing are often the subjects of posts and comments.

Posted by: aoshq janitorial & escort service at December 03, 2007 09:15 PM (5IA13)

^{And to preempt your next considered rebuke, yes, I know that I misspelled "resistance" up there, it was a typo.}

YA! AND YOUR MOM!!!

^{I disagree that the format of citizens asking questions via video is undignified and a "stunt." And I think much of the resisitance is because it is new, so it inevitably has a "stunt-like" aura.}

Seriously though, the modern-day debate formats are such things as undignified and "stunts". They are designed to produce a 10-second sound bite in an atmosphere representing more of a party (or hollywood drama) than that of a debate.

What is needed is a re-imagining of the debate forums used in history, such as the Lincoln-Douglas Debates. Only in such debates does the true character of the person emerge. Such a measure of mental, and physical, endurance strips away the glossed persona created by one's staff.

Or what can I know. After all, it would make the media's and confuse the poor... umm Alexander Hamilton's word for it... that's right- mob.

Posted by: TheEJS at December 03, 2007 09:19 PM (KINJc)

media's job extremely difficult*

I haven't even started drinking yet. Gonna be a good night bubba!

Posted by: TheEJS at December 03, 2007 09:21 PM (KINJc)

92 The EJS -

I don't disagree, but you have to narrow the field first, which makes some sort of quick, shallow format seem inevitable or likely in the primaries. What are the odds you could get Cable news to do long form debates between some candidates but not others without prohibitive caterwauling from excluded candidates?

And sometimes even Dan Rather is right.

Sometimes, but he'd be wrong if he made the assessment all blogs, by their nature, are undignified and cheesy. Draw Venn diagrams.

Posted by: Bill from INDC at December 03, 2007 09:34 PM (khYUg)

93 You're posting on aoshq, remember?

Oh crap, you're right. Thanks, I'm out of here. Goodnight, all.

Posted by: Bill from INDC at December 03, 2007 09:36 PM (khYUg)

94 Dan Rather thinks blogs are undignified and cheesy, btw.

Usually they are, he has a point. That's irrelevant to the case at hand, if a presidential candidate had a blog where he called for chugging vodka and bludgeoning hobos, I'd consider that beneath him as well.

This fascination with new technology without any consideration of what's appropriate or dignified for the position of the President is just immature.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 03, 2007 09:48 PM (hfyfI)

^{but you have to narrow the field first, which makes some sort of quick, shallow format seem inevitable or likely in the primaries.}

No you don't, Fred! wants groups of 2-3 to cycle in and out. There's always ways around the problem. Ya, cable news outlets probably won't carry it, but then again only people watching are at the political extremes, not the regular folks or "mob".

I just had to get the last word in. Off to watch Tin Man (SciFi Channel) then work on 2 papers.

Posted by: TheEJS at December 03, 2007 09:52 PM (KINJc)

96 "polishing Hillary's muff" Barf.

Of course. Your name isn't Humma. Or is it the other way around.

BARF!

Posted by: Bruce at December 03, 2007 10:08 PM (2q+Ss)

97 is an exactly correct use of the term.

Yes, that would be, but when you describe what bloggers are reacting like you'd notice it has little to do with what you said. As I said, the problem isn't with the people being involved, it's with how they are involved. The problem isn't populism or democracy, it's the cheap and trendy way it's being done. Please don't tell people what they are thinking or how they are reacting, we know without needing someone to inform us.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 03, 2007 10:26 PM (hfyfI)

98 Bill in INDC has just committed EXACTLY the same error as MKH. Must be a philosophical thing.

They both said "y'all shouldn't do X" to people who are not doing X.

Jack M, I, and at least the "blundits" I've read have been complaining about CNN's and YouTube's MISHANDLING of the debate, not the fact that there was a debate or that it involved widespread audience questions.

I myself think the format was too choppy to get any useful results, but that's a side issue.

Sorry for all the caps, but it seems the point needs emphasis to get across.

Posted by: Merovign at December 03, 2007 10:40 PM (IaYDo)

Christopher Taylor -

This fascination with new technology without any consideration of what's appropriate or dignified for the position of the President is just immature.

I don't disagree with you: tech for tech's sake without regard for quality is as stupid as maligning whole technical mediums based on their shoddier examples and executions (not saying you are necessarily doing the latter). We agree.

Merovign -

Jack M, I, and at least the "blundits" I've read have been complaining about CNN's and YouTube's MISHANDLING of the debate, not the fact that there was a debate or that it involved widespread audience questions.

I believe the arguments offered in this post and subsequent comments were unclear on this, often conflating the two (baby with bathwater, and all). And if you go back to MK's original post, she critiques CNN and Youtube's mishandling of the debate. So what you're really establishing is that there is less disagreement to all of this than necessary. We all agree on the fundamentals.

So there is one remaining point of contention - beyond whether citizen questions via internet are bad (not always, if I read you right) or whether, overall, CNN/Youtube muffed the format with plants and gotcha questions (yes, agreed) - is this: whether the GOP candidates, given the potential for the muffed format by CNN/Youtube, should have shunned the debate.

I'll argue "no," based on three factors: perception of aversion to direct democracy if they avoided it (politicians stick to populism quite consistently, often for good reason), to avoid mirroring the Dems much maligned avoidance of the Fox News debate, and the fact that the recent debate, flawed as it was, wasn't a whole lot worse than the regular non-Fox debates, where people like Wold Blitzer and Chris Matthews drop pointless gotcha questions about evolution and such.

So the GOP takes its lumps, has a debate that was ok for the first half, and we all cross our fingers that the next format is administered by a better broker, whether it be Fox news or Ed Morrissey (a respected blogger, to cycle back and re-answer Christopher Taylor's point about moron-blogs being inappropriate).

Posted by: Bill from INDC at December 04, 2007 11:00 AM (yZMsp)

100 I think the GOP should from this point forward ignore the CNN youtube debates. They showed up, answered the questions, showed CNN's tendency, and don't need to go back. They make the Democrats look weak and fearful for avoiding Fox News' debates. Now its time to move on.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 04, 2007 09:14 PM (hfyfI)

101 I disagree that the format of citizens asking questions via video is undignified and a "stunt." And I think much of the resisitance is because it is new, so it inevitably has a "stunt-like" aura. - Bill INDC

YouTube debates are inherently flawed and the flaw is irredeemable. There are vast numbers of Americans who desperately want to be on TV and become famous. Therefore the vast majority of questions will come from people who want their video played more than they want to ask a good question. The videos are created to be primarily self promotion. The focus therefore moves away from the candidates, away from the questions themselves and toward the self promotion of TV star wannabees. In addition, any knowledgeable self promoter will know that for their video to be picked they will have to satisfy the selection biases of the selectors, in this case CNN. So you will never, ever, get better questions than CNN could come up with by themselves.

If the questions were important, they would be written so that there would be less distraction from their content.

YouTube debates are like using American Idol to select our next President.

Sorry to take so long to get back to you.
klrtz1

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