1 Hopefully this will be the final nail in the coffin of Pat's influence.

2 Should Rudy end up being the nominee, by by conservative Republican Party, in any meaningful sense of that term.

3

I'm always hesitant to venture into religious territory when it comes to politics, but here goes.  I'm always amazed by other Christians who write off candidates due to one or two issues - even one or two issues that are critical to them personally.  I really question whether they have so little faith in God as to believe He doesn't have the power to use even the most seemingly un-Christian as instruments of His will.

To Christian social cons who wouldn't vote for Rudy Giuliani under any cirumstances, I ask this respectfully, whether it comes across that way or not and whether they believe it or not:

Have you ever even read the Bible?  Ever heard of Cyrus?:

"This is what the LORD says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut: I will go before you and will level the mountains; I will break down gates of bronze and cut through bars of iron. I will give you the treasures of darkness, riches stored in secret places, so that you may know that I am the LORD, the God of Israel, who summons you by name. For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me. I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. "You heavens above, rain down righteousness; let the clouds shower it down. Let the earth open wide, let salvation spring up, let righteousness grow with it; I, the LORD, have created it. Isaiah 45:1-8

Clearly, not one of His chosen, but he's continually mentioned in Isaiah as being "raised up by God" to do his will - ending the Babylonian exile, returning the Jews to Jerusalem, and instructing the Persian treasury to fund the rebuilding of the Temple.

Don't you think that God can guide even "heathens" to do good things according to his will?  If not, why not?

4
This should give Ace a boner.

5 Janitor, are you suggesting that Ace will be a bit late to this afternoon's blogging?

6

As we speak, the NYT is compiling a list of preachers that have endorsed Obama and Hillary, and what their various social and political positions and statements have been in the past few years.  There will also be a list of the pulpits that they have spoken from in the last year. Wait for it.

Journalism: it takes such good care of us, as long as we don't get all uppity and skeptical!

7

Rocketeer, I can't speak for the Christians here, but by that logic, Hillary would be just as good a candidate as Rudy.

8 Speaking of elections. If yesterdays local elections are any indication of what's to come next year. We are in deep doo doo.

9

Rocketeer,

I have the exact same sentiment as you. I am uncomfortable will high Govt spending. But I will take a high spender who kicks mookie ass anyday over a fiscal con who won't take the fight to the enemy. It is all about priorities. Also, I know what Guiliani's personal views about guns are, but I can bet he is NOT going to start snatching guns when he becomes President. Neither is he going to open an abortion clinic in the West Wing. He is smart enough not to try to impose his personal views on a nation not ready for them. At worst, he will maintain a status quo. We have had 5 Republican Presidents who could have done something to reverse Roe V Wade, and they didn't. Are we going to reject Guiliani because he will maintain the status-quo and at the same time wax nostalgic about Reagan?

10

>>I can't speak for the Christians here, but by that logic, Hillary would be just as good a candidate as Rudy.

Adolfo, if there is a story in the Bible about God using Satan as his instrument, I am not aware of it.

11

Rocketeer, I can't speak for the Christians here, but by that logic, Hillary would be just as good a candidate as Rudy.

Well, yes, I guess.  But in the Cyrus analogy, he was signalling good things to the Jews.  Hillary's not signalling good things to me, but Rudy is, i.e. telling me despite his position on abortion, etc., he would put personal feelings aside and appoint SC justices that were originalists, among other things.

12

Robertson is an open borders guy?  He's a gun control supporter?  I'm confused by the social cons going for Mr. Rockefeller Republican himself (Mitt Romney) but this is beyond bizarre, to be honest.

I like Rudy more than Robertson, BTW, but it seems the supposed Principled Conservative Christian Leaders have swooned for "electability" rather than for somebody like Duncan Hunter who shares their policy positions on the social issues.

I would have hoped that the whole "electability" thing would have been sunk by the dems' nominating Kerry last time. 

13
Janitor, are you suggesting that Ace will be a bit late to this afternoon's blogging?

No. Once he's finished his "business" and is out of bed, he will be one happy mega-posting. Ace will blog like the wind!  [Assuming he's not in some all day conference. Isn't that why he's in California?]

14
Sigh, every time I edit, I omit words:  Ace will be one happy mega-posting blogger.

15 Ace does his "business" in bed?! Messy.

16 Ricpic beat me to it.

17 I thought Pat Robertson died three months ago.
Huh. /malreynolds/

18 I thought Pat Robertson died three months ago.

That was Jerry Falwell.

19

Don't you think that God can guide even "heathens" to do good things according to his will? 

He also lets us suffer the temporal results of our own choices.  Hopefully, since the burned hand teachs best, we will learn to choose wisely.

Tob

Robertson made himself politically irrelevent a while back and now his spiritual  irrelevency is failing as well.

20 The evangelical right/Christian Coalition types, despite their proclamations of lofty principles, have always been very calculating and pragmatic.  In 1996, for example, they endorsed Bob Dole really early on, even when there were better conservatives still in the race they could have chosen.

But they did the necessary political math and concluded that Dole had the best chance of actually winning.

21

Oregon Muse  aren't they basically admitting their illrelevance then?  I mean, if they think they can win the nomination for somebody then get behind them early.  If they had done a big push for Duncan Hunter starting 6 months ago, it might be a different race, right?

Hey, I'm happy.  I figure this means we can just put them on "mute" from now on, right?

22

Since when was Robertson "influential" with anyone outside the media? I have lived in conservative Christian circles for 25 years, and I cannot recall anybody that even mentioned him as a leader...As one person put it, the only person that listens to Pat Robertson is Pat Robertson. Maybe people did once, but no longer.

The only reason he is "important" is because the media keep going to him to get a quote.

23 Robertson wants to be able to call up the White House for a chat in 2009. And he thinks that Giuliani is the only way that's going to happen.

24

Grey Fox gets dittos from me. Mad props, too. I've NEVER met anyone I would consider of a conservative bent who gave a rat's ass about anything Pat Robertson said.

25

Rudy isnt for open borders....he did run a sancuary city but then again he had 500k of em and ICE would only deport 2k a yr...what was he supposed to do??? not have them report crime or enroll their kids in school???

When Rudy was mayor Illegal Immigration wasnt the scourge that it is today...Rudy will lock down the borders, Kill Fucking Terrorists, and appoint good judges and hes a good tax cutter too...and last but not least HES A FIGHTER...when was the last time we had a republican actually take on the rotten liberal media scum???

For the record Newt was my first choice but hes not running

26

I don't necessrily like the guy, don't trust the guy, don't ever pay attention to the guy until he is thrust in my face by the media...but as mentioned in the Corner, he's been behind Giuliani since 2005

And this type of behavior from a prominent (at least in the media's eyes if not in actual voters') social conservatvie should be encouraged:

 

<sup>"To me, the overriding issue before the American people is the defense of our population from the bloodlust of Islamic terrorism," Robertson told reporters.  The second-most important issue, Robertson said, is fiscal discipline.  And then there are the social issues. "Uppermost in the mind of social conservatives is the selection of Supreme Court justices," Robertson said, and Giuliani "has assured the American people that his choices for judicial appointments will be men and women sho share the judicial philosophy of John Roberts and Antonin Scalia."

Asked to elaborate on his decision to endorse a pro-choice candidate, Robertson said, "I think he has articulated a philosophy that he really is for the life of the unborn."  Robertson said that for social conservatives, "the most important thing…is the selection of judges," but beyond that, "As long as the Supreme Court has ruled as it has, there's very little a politician can do."</sup>

Like him or not, this type of behavior should be encouraged.  Believe him or not, think he's just cold and calculating or not, think he's just greedily setting himself up for favors from the person he thinks is going to get the nod or not...would you prefer him to have come out and say he would sit out the election were Rudy nominated?

27

All I know is, I've been around a while and I don't think I've ever seen a less impressive slate of candidates, Republican *or* Democrat.

Bad times a comin', that's just all there is to it... In my ever so humble opinion.

28 All I know is, I've been around a while and I don't think I've ever seen a less impressive slate of candidates, Republican *or* Democrat.

Think 1996, hell 200 was basically George Bush and John McCain. These fields tend to look better or worse in retrospect.  It's hard to judge them in the moment.

29 hit and run  Huh, that's actually a hell of a lot more reasonable than Dobson or those other idiots have been with their talk of third party take my ball and boo-hoo all the way home stuff.  I'm kinda shocked.

30

With Rudy and Romney grabbing up all the conservative and religious right leaders, what exactly is the point of Fred Thompson?

We were told that Romney could never win because he is a RINO Mormon.  Yet in the space of a week he gets the endorsement of Bob Jones and one of the fathers of the modern conservative movement, Paul Weyrich.

We were told that Rudy was a liberal, abortion lover and then he gets Pat Robertson to endorse him.

Romney is ahead in all three early primary states and Rudy leads the national. They dominate the fundraising and the debates. The race comes down to those two as it has from the beginning.

31 If Rudy or Mitt gets the nomination, Im staying home. I dont give a shit. Voting for Bush has turned out to be bad decision and i think he is far more conservative than either of these two guys will be once they are elected.

No more of this 'lesser of two evils' for me.

Hillary!

32

Dumbass!

33

Guys-

Just for the record, the reason the media pays any attention to Pat Robertson is because he has one of the longest-running evangelical news programs in the history of television- the 700 Club. He has recently added one of my former colleagues as a co-anchor, the absolutely smoking hot Mia Evans. Jaw-droppingly hot.

In any event, with the long reach of CBN (the Christian Broadcasting Network), Pat does have a certain ability to get to people... but like so many in the media, they figure that since it's on their radar, it must be on the radar of all those conservatives, too.

Pursuant to the situation of religious conservatives endorsing South Park conservatives (read: socially moderate or socially liberal cons), I'm not sure why it's so difficult to believe... Rudy has come out and said that he would nominate constructionist judges (the only way we'll see an end to abortion in this country, and the only thing that will really protect us from gun grabs) to the Supremes... all the religious leaders that I've spoken to tell me that they steadfastly believe that it is entirely more important to keep Hillary out of office than it is to petulantly stay home over an imperfect candidate.

Along the same lines, the only way to really slash pork is to get rid of the porkmeisters in Congress... but that's for another post.

tmi3rd

34

With Rudy and Romney grabbing up all the conservative and religious right leaders, what exactly is the point of Fred Thompson?

Someone who is actually a traditional conservative.

35

endorsing South Park conservatives (read: socially moderate or socially liberal cons),

I'd say South Park conservatives are better described as Libertarian conservatives, which is important because there is a big different between one and the generic 'socially liberal' voter. For example, Guiliani is far from a Libertarian, even if he comes to the same end result as them on a couple issues.

36

Just to tag onto MlR's post- I don't think many of us would have a problem voting for Thompson... but it's not us he's got to convince! It doesn't seem like his group is making much of an effort to catch up... so people are looking in other directions, deciding whom they can live with.

I did my level best to get him to talk to my station when he came through town on a fundraiser lately, and his crew just blew us off. We were going to give him a lot of leash to say whatever he wanted- it was going to be a friendly piece, but his handlers wanted nothing to do with us, and it was the same when he was our senator. He's struggling to extend his lead in his home state... nobody seems to take him seriously.

At the risk of being dismissive- and I would vote for Thompson in a sec- I'm all about voting for people closer to my point of view (and Thompson is closer on many things than Rudy), but I'm not going to Vegas and putting down all my money on my Saints winning the Super Bowl, either.

Know what I mean?

tmi3rd

37

Someone who is actually a traditional conservative.

 

By who's definition, yours?  Paul Weyrich doesn't know what a conservative is? 

"As he travels across the country, Governor Romney has outlined a blueprint to build a stronger America rooted in our common conservative principles. With a clear conservative vision to move America forward, he will strengthen our economy, our military and our families. More importantly, he already has an exceptional record of putting conservative values to work. Because of his experience, vision and values, I am proud to support Governor Romney," said Paul Weyrich.

 

What exactly has Fred done, not said, done, that makes him so conservative?  And if Fred is so wonderful as I have been hearing since the spring, why has he done so poorly since he got into the race?

38

Going back and forth with MlR here-

Good point. I hadn't considered it like that. Thanks for the correction.

tmi3rd

39

Just to underscore a point- this election for me is based on one simple thing, much as I hate to say it- my vote is driven almost exclusively by an unyielding need to keep Hillary Clinton out of office. The end result is that the only person who would negate my vote on Election Day would be Ron Paul. There will be plenty on the ballot that day that will require my vote, so there's no way I'd ever stay home on Election Day.

That's not a nyah-nyah-you-suck to people whose consciences won't let them vote for certain candidates... that's more of a statement that there'll be more to worry about on Election Day 2008 than just who the President will be. Don't vote for a Presidential candidate if you can't justfy it... but for heaven's sake, don't just stay home over one candidate.

tmi3rd

40 This is bizarro world.

Pat Robertson endorses the only pro-choice GOP candidate.

I think this endorsement will change opinions of him more than Rudy.

41 Thank God I have Paul Weyrich to tell me who the true conservative is in the race.  Just like I need that other fella to remind me that Playboy really is pornography.

42

Thank God I have Paul Weyrich to tell me who the true conservative is in the race.  Just like I need that other fella to remind me that Playboy really is pornography.

 

Yea, what does the endorsement of one of the architects of the modern conservative movement that spawned Reagan, Gingrich and the Republican revolution mean anyway?

43

hit and run is right.

Say what you will about Pat Robertson, he's actually far more grounded in reality that James (3rd party) Dobson.

People have been laughing at Pat Robertson ever since he presciently predicted the imminent fall of the Soviet Empire. I was one of them once. The guy is sharper than we think.

As for all of you hung up on the abortion issue, if Rudy appoints judges who overturn the judicial monstrosity, that's the best you can get. Frankly, quite a few states will remain abortion-on-demand until the end of time. I live in one.

44 Tushar,
God does use Satan in the book of Job to teach us a lesson....

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