The Most Important 2 minutes of the Democratic Debate
This is all you need to know about tonight's debate.Hillary Clinton, blew it. Big Time. It happened late in the debate, and I have no idea how many people stuck around to watch it. But, take my word for it, it is going to be a regularly repeating ad run by the GOP all summer long.
It's important for several reasons.First, she is barely ahead of Obama in Iowa. Immigration has consistently polled as the top issue in that state. She has placed herself on the wrong side of the public, on the wrong side of Iowans, and has given Obama an opening to snake the state out from under her. (Obama blew it too..he took the Hillary position. But no-one talks about Obama. Every Republican in Iowa from this point forward will be bashing Hillary for endorsing driver's licenses for illegals. This probably boosts Obama's prospects, solely by driving Hill's negatives up.) Should Obama upset Clinton in Iowa, her aura of "inevitability" is gone. She still wins the Dem nomination, but she spends more money to do so, and she has to spend more time in the spotlight engaging in retail politics. And Hillary in the spotlight is bad for her. The more people see her, the more they are reminded of the things they don't like about her. Hillary's gaffe also helps the GOP. It places our single most popular issue in the forefront of debate. When the public is given a choice between enforcing the law and granting amnesty, we win. It was also an unnecessary error. She could have used this moment to tack back to the center. Chris Dodd gave the answer that Hillary should have given. She may be New York's Senator, but that doesn't mean she has to reflexively endorse everything the State's Democratic Governor does. She seemed to forget this. Now..is there any benefit to Hillary's move? Maybe. It forces Giuliani to start talking about his immigration position. Why? Because reporters will want to see if the two most prominent New York candidates are split on this issue (which would be interesting in its own right) and because the media can use it to highlight Giuliani's "evolving/nuanced" position. Which, given his record, is not the area he wants to focus his message on as he appeals to GOP primary voters. And Giuliani was obviously the candidate on the Democrats minds tonight. Biden saw fit to take him down on several occasions. The only other GOP candidate I heard name-checked was Romney (in a really lame joke). So, she choked. She anti-triangulated. Somewhere Bill Clinton must be "feeling her pain." Which makes me smile. Almost as much as all the fact that she voluntarily made our best issue the topic of the news cycle for the next couple of weeks. Thanks, Hill!
Posted by: Jack M. at 11:55 PM
1 This just shows again that under pressure, Hillary is a terrible campaigner.
Posted by: Slublog at October 30, 2007 11:58 PM (S4CM5)
2 Immigration restrictionists don't vote single issue, so it won't help Republicans.
Posted by: Mike at October 31, 2007 12:00 AM (+XDhk)
3 Yep, spot on there Jackie boy. I guess you're more than a poem slinging romantic and there's a hardcore operative in there after all.
Watching Hillary! try to walk this back tomorrow will be fun. My guess is that her people have a long night ahead of them positioning this just so.
Posted by: Drew at October 31, 2007 12:01 AM (hlYel)
Posted by: Tom at October 31, 2007 12:06 AM (1kwK7)
5 Immigration restrictionists don't vote single issue, so it won't help Republicans.
I don't know...the amnesty bills gained some pretty wide-ranging outrage among not only Republicans, but political independents. This is a big issue.
Posted by: Slublog at October 31, 2007 12:07 AM (S4CM5)
6 Licenses for illegals won't play well in upstate NY.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 31, 2007 12:07 AM (491+P)
7 undocumented workers
come out of the shadows
Hillary doesn't know anything past her polling data and focus groups.
Posted by: Z Ryan at October 31, 2007 12:09 AM (PDeVA)
8 The pics of her and the dead clam having a smoke will clinch it.
Posted by: mbruce at October 31, 2007 12:16 AM (LLCm9)
9 "Immigration restrictionists don't vote single issue, so it won't help Republicans."
Actually, I'd say that, excepting possibly abortion, this is the single biggest block of single issue voters among Republicans there is. Is it true among Democrats as well? Well, probably not as many, but I don't think it's negligible at all, specially for the union types.
I might actually watch Lou Dobbs tomorrow. Heh. Heh. Heh.
Posted by: Qwinn at October 31, 2007 12:20 AM (/FDfc)
10 What's Spanish for "bitch"?
Posted by: Undocumented Commenter at October 31, 2007 12:26 AM (jYT9+)
11 By "know who is here," I believe she means "know the name that was given with no supporting evidence thereof."
What stops Oswaldo Garcia from resurrecting himself as Armando Martinez when the Oswaldo Garcia identity is fucked - i.e.license revoked, credit ruined, bad debt, raped some little kids?
No one has ever sufficiently answered that question, or answered it at all rather than calling me a racist xenophobe. Still waitin'.
Posted by: alec leamas at October 31, 2007 12:30 AM (PfroL)
12 What's Spanish for "bitch"?
Posted by: Slublog at October 31, 2007 12:32 AM (S4CM5)
13 Apparently, Hillary is trying towoo thevoting illegals from Obama and Richardson.
Yeah, Lou Dobbs and Glenn Beck will be foaming at their mouths tomorrow, although I can't blame them.
Posted by: electron john at October 31, 2007 12:36 AM (ZvbcI)
14 Thanks for posting this important exchange and your excellent analysis.
Posted by: Bob Agard at October 31, 2007 12:51 AM (w6CVD)
Anyone wanna bet this sound bite leads El Rushbo's broadcast tomorrow?
Posted by: exdem13 at October 31, 2007 01:01 AM (yFGPX)
16 What's Spanish for "bitch"?
Posted by: El Amish at October 31, 2007 01:08 AM (BWvjd)
17 Hey, Amish is back!
Nice to see you again.
Posted by: Nom de Blog at October 31, 2007 01:14 AM (6Ie+q)
18 Did anyone else notice that Hillary has a hard time making eye contact? She keeps looking everywhere but straight ahead. She was obviously uncomfortable.
Posted by: MagicalPat at October 31, 2007 01:16 AM (Rs/R9)
19 Did anyone else notice that Hillary has a hard time making eye contact?She was obviously uncomfortable.
I think she was just checking out my rack. Eyes up here Senator. Im just a piece of meat. I feel... so...so... violated...but i guess after youve been probed by as many aliens as i have you get used to that sort of thing.
Posted by: Bill Richardson at October 31, 2007 01:22 AM (BWvjd)
20 Wow, Amish is back. How bout that? Hillary effs up big, and Amish reappears.
Posted by: sinistar at October 31, 2007 01:27 AM (yA494)
21 Nice to see you again.
Hillary effs up big
Did she really? NRO is already crowning Hillary after her performance tonight. I didnt watch the debate tonight. I get pissed off watching the Republican debates cause they arent conservative enough, i sure as hell cant manage to sit through this shit.
Posted by: Vast Right Wing Amish Conspiracy at October 31, 2007 01:36 AM (BWvjd)
22 NRO crew can be a bunch of dumbasses sometimes...it happens when you spend too much time in the Beltway. It mercilessly devours soul and brain alike. That said, if you view it from the leftist perspective, of course Hillary won, she's on top and no ones gonna dislodge her.
Posted by: sinistar at October 31, 2007 01:49 AM (yA494)
23 The part that Jack posted is spreading around already, by tomorrow morning it'll have hit all the dextrosphere blogs, by midday tomorrow it'll be on every talk radio show. She's made a huge error, as long as the idgit GOP elite can dislodge their heads from their clenched sphincters.
Posted by: sinistar at October 31, 2007 01:53 AM (yA494)
24 ..and take advantage of it.
Posted by: sinistar at October 31, 2007 01:54 AM (yA494)
25 Couple of things...
In Spanish, the direct translation of "bitch" is perra, but it's not used in the same context... they usually use the term "hijo de puta" which means "son of a whore" in the same context we use "son of a bitch". Closest noun that would be used in the context of "bitch" would be cabron or cabra in the feminine, which translates into "goat". If you wanted to use the term "fucking bitch" in Spanish, you'd probably use the term "pinche cabron" or "pinche cabra", which basically means "worthless goat"... pinche is used in (particularly Mexican dialect) Spanish as an adjective the way we use the word "fucking".
Sorry to be a know-it-all, but I figure it's worth knowing how to curse someone properly in what is evidently the second language in the US...
In regards to this clip- whatever the spin may be, this was not a great moment for Hillary, and it shows an ignorance of what is widely polled as one of the top issues facing the US today. If she wants to hang her hat on that, it'll follow her like a bad picture of her in a mullet and spandex... no, wait, she's already kicking the mullet in this clip.
Posted by: tmi3rd at October 31, 2007 02:05 AM (YbwHq)
26 She's made a huge error, as long as the idgit GOP elite can dislodge their heads from their clenched sphincters.
Well, yes and no. I mean, none of the republican frontrunners is remotely serious about border security/immigration reform.
as much as i like giuliani, there's no doubt that he'll open the borders, given the chance. romney's a squish and i don't trust him as far as i can throw him. fred's not going anywhere, and would probably "grow in office" the way reagan did.
let's face it... even the great shining light of the republican party, Ron himself, crapped all over the country when he signed simpson-mazzoli. and smiled about it.
the only hope is that we hang on long enough in the house and the senate for, i dunno, common sense to break out?
personally, this is a topic of equal importance to the GWOT at this point. i understand if others don't feel this way, but when Chris Dodd sounds tougher than any of the republicans (or at least more credible/prinicpled,) i start to have terrible thoughts.
I refuse to let the smirking jorge arbusto et al hold the war hostage to pleasing vicente fox anymore.
Posted by: jdub at October 31, 2007 02:13 AM (XNRdS)
27 "fred's not going anywhere"What is it with this? Rasmussen's got him as the #2 Pub in a head to head contest with Hillary. They're at a statistical dead heat.
As for being "remotely serious about border security/immigration reform", Fred! is sounding pretty awesome to me on that score. Said building the border fence already mandated by law will be a big priority with him, and hasn't made any squishy sounds on it at all.
Posted by: Qwinn at October 31, 2007 02:17 AM (/FDfc)
28 What is it with this? Rasmussen's got him as the #2 Pub in a head to head contest with Hillary. They're at a statistical dead heat.
Fair enough; it's too soon to tell what will become of fred!. i shouldn't have exaggerated... i get riled up over this.
and no, he hasn't seemed squishy on the topic, at least on the campaign trail.
check out http://grades.betterimmigration.com/testgrades.php3?District=TNVIPID=743retired=1
it's neither very damning or very encouraging... i think it shows mainly a picture of Fred! as someone who didn't want to take a position. granted, at the time most of these votes were taken, it didn't seem like the issue it does now.
he's the best we can hope for, at least on this topic.
Posted by: jdub at October 31, 2007 02:31 AM (XNRdS)
29 Word for all Comment:SHUT UP PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!
Y? HIULARY IS MY GIRL!!!!!!!!!
You dont Know anything about Immigration, Allyou think is that they are all illegal. You didnt think whatYOU canDO to this people in order to live peaceful in this country. Think for something to solve this problem. Think how you can make a safer life for all americans. all of you are always saying ENFORCE THE LAW. Well im telling all of your bonehead, that the IMMIGRATION LAW IS BROKEN. So think about how will you straightened tha immigration law.
IM SO TIRED OF ALL OF THIS BONEHEAD PEOPLE. DO SOMETHING. THINK SOMETHING TO SOLVE AND REGAIN THE DIGNITY OF OUR IMMIGRATION SYSTEM. DONT BE SO HIPPOCRATES.
I know all of you are telling that what about those criminal alien who kill, raped, etc... WELL, THATS WHY WE NEED TO FIX THE LAW. this stupid government cannot enforce the la so we need to act. WE NEED IMMIGRATION REFORM. One of the key in this reform is to have a BACKGROUND CHECK, DID ANYBODY UNDERSTAND THAT.
Posted by: manuel carillo at October 31, 2007 02:33 AM (AFjKZ)
30 The instructive thing to me was how rattled she got when she was on the ropes. She didn't recover quickly with a good answer, she hemmed and hawed stalling for time, she seemed unready for the question, which is inexcusable, Dodd, to his credit, jumped right on it which shows his prep was better than hers.
I think if the R's get a good attack dog candidate like Rudy, McCain or Thompson, they can attack her with impunity. No one is going to see her as "picked on", they are going to see her as weak and unready. Which she actually is, for all her 'discipline'.
Posted by: docweasel at October 31, 2007 02:38 AM (ACIZZ)
31 Hey manuel,
?Que pasa cabron?
The think for something to fix this is to get a handle on the people that are already here illegally and stop more people from getting into our country illegally and actually enforce the laws that we already have so that when we fix them -- less people can abuse the system and those that want to come here legally will be able to without having to deal with a system that is overtaxed by dealing with the people that are already here illegally.
It is not a right to become a citizen of this country, nor is it a right to be allowed to cross our border. No other country lets so many illegals exist within it's borders. The problem is the illegals, not the law. The law isn't broken, it's not being enforced -- so goofballs like you want us to make it even more leniant.
Beunos nachos amigo.
Posted by: mesablue at October 31, 2007 02:44 AM (KCOdQ)
32 Manuel Carillo-
Let me see if I've got this straight...
"Somebody set us up the bomb."
"We get signal."
"Main Screen turn on."
"All your base are belong to us. You have no chance to survive make your time."
At least, that's how it reads...
Posted by: tmi3rd at October 31, 2007 02:47 AM (YbwHq)
33 She came out talking up the piece of shit? LOL. Pure awesome.
Posted by: someone at October 31, 2007 02:50 AM (3uFRW)
34 "What is it with this?"
Dude, it's the Malor^H^H^H^H^HAce of Spades party line.
Posted by: someone at October 31, 2007 02:54 AM (3uFRW)
35 Seriously,Lou Dobbs -better- go absolutely apeshit over this tomorrow. He better be driven into the same sort of sputteringrevolted hystrionic rage that we'd expect from Rosie O'Donnell presented with a largepenis covered in her favorite chocolate.
Posted by: Qwinn at October 31, 2007 03:02 AM (/FDfc)
36 goofballsmesablue and tmi3rd.
you know what. im not mexican. amigo.
all of what you have saidARE the reason why we need to fix our system.
THIS ONLY SHOW THAT YOU DONT READ NOR YOU DONT UNDERSTAND THE BILL. LOOK AND ANALYZE THE BILL FOR IMMIGRATION REPORM.
dont correlate this people to those who are teroRrist. Look also in our legal or eveN american citizen of this country, they doing most terrible and most dangerous thing here in US. you dont think about it.
Think about the canadian borderr to. all of this people not only mexican.
So do you thinhk if giovernment enforce the law for those peopl whoare here they will show up. youre kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!1
they will be silent...............
so do something.
How many years from 1986 the government enforce the law. DID IT CHANGE> WAKE UP>dont tell me that those people who serve in thisdidnt do anything to enforce the law. two decade pass and the immigration is still and going broken.
Posted by: manuel carillo at October 31, 2007 03:03 AM (AFjKZ)
37 All right Amish, cut it out...
Posted by: someone at October 31, 2007 03:06 AM (3uFRW)
38 Oh, u actualy wnt ppl to rspund 2 yer evdenty drunkn rnt?
K- ?Es posible que puedes clarificar algo para nosotros? No me importa de donde eres- parece que eres de la planeta moronica o borracha...
You say you're a fan of real immigration reform, yet Hilury is yur gurrrrrl? That would appear to be a contradiction right there... but let's work on your typography and spelling before we tax your brain too much.
Posted by: tmi3rd at October 31, 2007 03:31 AM (YbwHq)
39 She never answered the question, "Do you support Gov. Spitzer's plan?" Dacned around the question, faded back and forth..........but never, truly answered the question. Senator Dodd made her look like an idiot up there. I think that her quotes right there cost her the victory in this debate...
Posted by: Jason L. at October 31, 2007 05:57 AM (zVOP6)
40 If Hillary wants to know who is in New York illegally all she needs to check her donor list.
Posted by: Stephen Macklin at October 31, 2007 06:17 AM (Z3kjO)
41 who cares if voters don't vote for this single issue? with so much generalizing and parity, this is one of the few distinctions we've got. It's certainly right up there with my concerns for Giuliani. If he says he's going to fix this problem, I will vote for him. If he talks in code about amnesty like Clinton, I will vote for Thompson.
Did anyone notive how awful Clinton was at keeping her damn story straight? Is she for it or against it? "No... uh Bush!" For it or against it, for the record Senator? "Yeeeaah .... Bush! No!"
She had nothing to say but repeating what the problem was. No clear answer. Giuliani would win debates with her... she is trying too hard. It's really easy to answer these questions if you aren't afraid of your principles. Giuliani has been a lot better at answering tough questions by just explaining that he is who he is. I think he is uniquely able to deal with her without coming across as a bully.
Posted by: PJ at October 31, 2007 06:20 AM (8dfqL)
42 I am jealous of Hillary's answer.
Posted by: K-Y covered weasel at October 31, 2007 07:25 AM (ftN71)
43 It's a pimple dude.
Even if the media were to somehow turn on Hillary on the issue of granting drivers licenses to illegal immigrants, tomorrow ... she'd just change her position. It's a one-day story.
Hillary is going to be your next president, because Republicans with the possible exception of George W. Bush, who isn't really a conservative, are governing like corrupt morons. Ted Stevens is still in the Senate? Larry Craig is still in the Senate?
Get used to saying Madam President.
Posted by: notalawyer at October 31, 2007 07:49 AM (Oj05V)
44 All I could think of watching this was that episode of Star Trek where the robots start malfunctioning because they can't reconcile two logical contradictions.
"Must appease hispanic voters so must support driver's licenses for illegals but can not alienate mainstream voters so can not support driver's licenses for illegals. Must engage equivocation sub-routine. ERROR! ERROR! Sub-routine indicates previous contradictory statement. Engage Denial sub-routine. ERROR! ERROR! They're not buying it! Engage cackle sub-routine. ERROR! ERROR! ...."
Posted by: V the K at October 31, 2007 07:49 AM (PLvLS)
45 Yankee, Cub, Yankee, Cub,Yankee,Cub...
Posted by: Mike in Chicago at October 31, 2007 07:59 AM (/L1AV)
46 Dudes, Carillo is a faux chicano
Funny stuff tho
Posted by: TMF at October 31, 2007 08:12 AM (KTgUG)
47 Make the News cycle for next couple of weeks? Pu-fuckin-leaze. The MSM won't ever report it at all. This will be a dead issue by 9am Thursday. A nice stick for Repubs to beat her with down the road, but let's not get carried away with this being a huge victory for us. Yes, it is scary when Chris Doo-dod sounds this conservative. Her debate style reminded me of a bad sales pitch by Chris Farley in "Tommy Boy". "Well you can look up Elliot Spiztscum ass for a drivers licence, but wouldn't you just take Pacos' word that he's here legally,,,,Doah"
Posted by: hutch1200 at October 31, 2007 08:57 AM (X0rhN)
48 Manuel's not really brown? No wonder I wasn't scared of him.
Al Gore is offering to sell me "cabrَn offsets". Should I buy?
Posted by: Paul Zrimsek at October 31, 2007 09:01 AM (/C3Pw)
49 Like every other revealing Hillary misstep, this too will be buried by the MSM.
Posted by: ricpic at October 31, 2007 09:09 AM (CaZ8t)
50 I thought I read last night that she threw a meltdown/tantrum at the end of the thing. That might be more important.
Posted by: funky chicken at October 31, 2007 09:13 AM (I+jPP)
51 We just need to keep collecting all the Hillary "stuff" and find an Anti-Hillary site to post it on.
Posted by: JimK at October 31, 2007 09:21 AM (c3Km9)
52 Jack nailed it. The really, really sweet part about her position is that it is emminently understandable by Every. Single. Voter. This isn't some inside baseball shit about Dingell-Norwood or touchbacks or whatever.
It's fucking drivers licenses. My drunk inbred third cousin can get his meth-addled noodle around this one. And vote appropriately.
Posted by: Cuffy Meigs at October 31, 2007 09:33 AM (uOvAE)
53 Too many faux chicanos around here, if you ask me.
Posted by: adolfo_velasquez at October 31, 2007 09:34 AM (8AtFQ)
Posted by: Jose Mamacia at October 31, 2007 09:55 AM (0rl7n)
55 ...as long as the idgit GOP elite can dislodge their heads from their clenched sphincters.
HA HA HA HA! This is so naive! This has never happened in my lifetime. Does anyone honestly think it's going to happen now?
If I were the GOP elite, I would instruct any and all spokesmen to include the phrase "bought and sold by Chinese interests" any time the topic of Hillary! came up. That they're not doing this is a good indication that their heads are, as you suggest, Firmly Lodged.
Posted by: OregonMuse at October 31, 2007 10:08 AM (3rqbd)
56 Immigration restrictionists don't vote single issue, so it won't help Republicans.
I'm not an immigration 'restrictionist,' and I don't think anyone else here is either.
We want people to immigrate legally. We don't think we owe anything to people who enter the country illegally to make money.
BTW, that Hillary clip is on my local talk radio show right now.
Posted by: laura doble beh at October 31, 2007 10:22 AM (DcJdW)
57 There is no GOP plan for the election. No unifying theme or candidate.
Thereis only a bunch of little local guys each trying to make himself look like major league material.
It's every man for himself out there saying whatever. Where is Karl Rove? Someone should be selling the idea that it's not the man but the party and its ruling philosophy that people will elect.
Bush bartered away the Republican Image of small govenment, anti-corruptions, with controls on spending. He sold it for a mess or porridgesupport for the war.
Thus the race is all about personality this year. Who has the nicer smile? Rudy or Romney?
Hillary,corrupt and vicious as she is,comes across as someone who will be in charge.
Does anybody get the impression that Romney will RUN the government? I think he's just an administrator. Rudy comes across somewhat better on that point but still doesn't have the 'command presence' that he needs. The Fred has the command presence and that is the sole basis for his popularity.
Why don't the other candidates ask themselves what it is that People like about the Fred and show us some of that?
Posted by: Lokki at October 31, 2007 10:30 AM (wSBsc)
58 Was she trying out the scary bitch and shrill panderer costume a day early? Hey Lenin with tits, you only give out candy on Haloween, not the fucking border!
Posted by: hutch1200 at October 31, 2007 10:35 AM (X0rhN)
59 IT'S ALL BUSH'S FAULT! WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
Posted by: JB at October 31, 2007 10:41 AM (i1jdV)
60 Wait... how is it the Bush adminstration's fault that the immigration reform thing didn't pass? Didn't he support that?
Posted by: JB at October 31, 2007 10:43 AM (i1jdV)
61 Wow. This is a really good analysis.
I think I'll link it on my supra awesomely awesome blog.
Now who to give credit to...
Hmmm. Decisions decisions. There is no name at the top...hmmm.
Do you suppose I should do some research? Fact checking?
Nah! That's why god gave our computers editing abilities!!
Posted by: Allahpundit at October 31, 2007 10:51 AM (zGHW/)
62 I thought I read last night that she threw a meltdown/tantrum at the end of the thing. That might be more important.
to the .006% of the population watching.
Posted by: toby928 at October 31, 2007 11:32 AM (evdj2)
63 I think I can pull my head out of the oven....
FINALLY Shitllary is forced to answer real questions and thank god show what an empty extra large pantsuit she is wearing. This is AWESOME.
Posted by: Lisa at October 31, 2007 11:33 AM (hqHA+)
64 DONT BE SO HIPPOCRATES
wasn't that the guy they call "the father of medicine"?
doesn't seem like a bad guy to be....
Posted by: Terry at October 31, 2007 11:34 AM (mJtuT)
65 I fail to see how this is going to get Jack M. laid.
What am I missing peoples?
Posted by: Dave in Texas at October 31, 2007 11:37 AM (Gnn85)
66 I fail to see how this is going to get Jack M. laid.
You don't think smoking hot political analysis makes the ladies swoon with desire?
Posted by: Slublog at October 31, 2007 11:39 AM (R8+nJ)
67 I am outside the beltway kinda guy.
Posted by: Dave in Texas at October 31, 2007 11:49 AM (Gnn85)
68 So what's Spanish for "Night of the Sodomizing Cougar-Demon"?
As in Dick Cheney...
Posted by: Cincinnatus at October 31, 2007 01:22 PM (tun6e)
69 "the IMMIGRATION LAW IS BROKEN."
Sorry, douchehammer - you can't break the system and then claim the right to violate the law because the system is broken. We're a tad smarter than that.
Just because people like you, and people on Boards of Corporations do not think that legal immigration is lax enough and allocates enough spots to you and yours is not a license to break the law. "I don't like the law, therefore I will not follow it and decide what is fair for myself" is not an acceptable attitude.
Cue child who kills parents and moans that he is an Orphan.
Posted by: Amanda Marcotte's bicycle seat at October 31, 2007 01:32 PM (bflEi)
70 Someone please refresh my memory. What was it again that George Bush did to derail her comprehensive immigration plan?
Also..#40 needs repeating. heh..
Hutch - "Lenin with tits" HAHAh......too fricken funny, that was.
Posted by: LeAnn at October 31, 2007 05:58 PM (eHaWc)
71 YOU ARE INSULTING AMERICAN SOLDIERS OF HISPANIC DESCENT !
Part of my family lives in USA, part of my family lives in Mexico.
One of my uncles fought in the Second World War in Europe. Two other were stationed ready to go abroad when the war ended.
A cousin of mine went to Vietnam.
One of my nephews has been to Iraq (not only once, but twice !!).
My other nephew is presently fighting in Afghanistan.
Both of my nephews are with the Marine Corps. Semper fi.
The parents of all these American soldiers, my relatives, came here first without proper documentation, with the exception of one, thus illegally. Even one of these Marines was born in Mexico.
They were willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for their new country.
Let me remind you that many Mexicans came to USA during the Second World War to work in agriculture, mining, and other industries, because the male population was drafted to fight overseas in Europe and Japan..
Many of the present Hispanics are the descendants of those people that stayed here.
Some of these soldiers are from parents that were once illegal. They have even joined the military and died in foreign countries
Let me repeat the words of McCain in one of the debates:
"My friends, I want you the next time you're down in Washington, D.C. to go to the Vietnam War Memorial and look at the names engraved in black granite," he said. "You'll find a whole lot of Hispanic names.”
My uncles and cousins of my American family are in disbelief by some statements.
Posted by: memo at October 31, 2007 10:49 PM (4gHqM)
72 THE RULE OF LAW
WHEN IS THE LAW, THE LAW?
Why are you claiming the rule of law against people that came here to work? Work that many of you don’t want to perform.
“Rule of law” means enforcing laws that are capable of enforcement, otherwise people merely learn disrespect for the law. Obviously, immigration laws that refuse to recognize the inevitable attraction of a lack of unskilled labor on one side of the border and a lack of employment for unskilled labor on the other is not workable no matter how much of the taxpayers' billions get poured down a rathole of “enhanced”enforcement
Did you forget about the prohibition time, when many illegal activities flourished, including the rise of the mafia? This is exactly what happens when laws are NOT capable of enforcement. Black market and illicit activities are the result.
Did you know that President Carter gave pardon for those that did not join the war in Vietnam? Many went to Canada, and others flew to Mexico.
You sure know that President Ford gave full pardon to Nixon because of the Watergate scandal.
And according to what it is known, Nixon violated blatantly the law in many issues and on a great scale. This does not mean that therefore, others must violate the law. But what I am saying is that in the history of this great country there are some examples of amnesty or whatever you want to call it.
But you are in uproar claiming this very same rule of law.
Ruthless to the poor, but silent for others. Quick to harm the weak, but smiling to the strongest.
Isn’t this called hypocrisy?
Posted by: memo at October 31, 2007 10:51 PM (4gHqM)
73 Walls have never worked in history:
To provide this answer, it is illustrating the first words of Robert Ludlum in The Bourne Supremacy:
"The land and the water are one, and it is the will of the spirit that determines how man will use the land and the water - again without regard for such abstractions as useless freedom or escapable confinement.
The concern is only with empty stomachs, with women's stomachs, children's stomachs. Survival. There is nothing else.
The Chinese wall, it didn’t work,
The Berlin wall: a complete failure, but yet you want to built one along the border of Mexico.
The Maginot Line (a line of concrete fortifications, tank obstacles, machine gun posts and other defenses which France constructed along its borders with Germany). Another failure.
This last term is sometimes used today to describe any comically ineffective protection.
One thing is certain; all have proven his futility and uselessness.
Posted by: memo at October 31, 2007 10:52 PM (4gHqM)
74 Do not forget what happened with Hitler and Jews in Europe.
Not so long ago, the biggest dictator on earth came to power driven by anger and hate.
Everything started little by little in Germany. Jews started to be blamed for everything. Just take a look to some of the movies made by Hitler about Jews. In these films, they are depicted as criminals, thieves, a disgrace to Germany, they are filthy, they bring diseases, they are greedy, they should be removed, they should be deported,etc.
Your arguments sound familiar. Similar to the attacks made to Jews that escalated until deport them to concentration camps and exterminate a great deal of innocent people. All based on hate. Hate against other race. Hate against other people.
Posted by: memo at October 31, 2007 10:54 PM (4gHqM)
75 How come that most of you go along with the idea that Mexico is a partner in the fight against drug trafficking?
But, how come you can not go along with the idea to work together in an immigration plan?
How come you decide to ignore Mexico completely, when you want to build a wall?
Mexicans come here looking for jobs. They don’t come to USA because they want to die in the desert by thirst or drown in the river. They come here looking for a job.
Just realize that you are pouring billions of dollars in places located in the other side of the world. To say that those folks hate you is to say the least. A tenth of this investment in Mexico would solve the problem by creating jobs.
We could have a decent and rational discussion to secure the border. We could work together to stop illicit activities. We could find common solutions to common problems. We could do many things together, similar to Europe with different countries and many more languages involved.
We could be the first line of defense against international terrorism.
But in this way, by hating us, by denigrating us, and trying to harm us, you are shutting the door to any rationality in this discussion.
We are not your enemies. Don’t treat us as such.
Posted by: memo at October 31, 2007 10:55 PM (4gHqM)
76 Immigration Reform NowA project of the Republican National Hispanic Assembly (RNHA)
Plus additional resources from the Republican National Hispanic Assembly (RNHA)
"When the law ignores the law of supply and demand, the law fails."By Ken Mehlman, Republican National Committee Chairman
Posted by: memo at October 31, 2007 10:56 PM (4gHqM)
JUST A THOUGHT
Several decades ago, immigrants from Hispanic origin came to the USA. They didn’t bother to participate in politics. They came to work and nothing else. Why to bother if the country was doing OK. They didn’t speak the language very well and they thought let’s leave politics in the hands of those who are in power. Working and keeping a job was their main goal. Many even didn’t bother to change their immigrant status as residents.
But a couple of years ago, particularly this year, something happened. Because they cannot be recognized or distinguished by appearance, with the so-called illegals, they started to realize that they had to become citizens to obtain a higher level of protection. They realized that they were being demonized. Many of them are coming to vote for the first time.
Some of this population belongs to the group that came with the amnesty offered by President Reagan in 1986-1988. They too started to become citizens. There is no way that anyone can identify an illegal alien just by looking at them. You cannot tell who is an American citizen just by looking. Latino voters are tired of getting treated as something less than real Americans.
They could be legally here; they could have lived in the U.S. for generations. The only marker is skin color. The effect of the immigration debate on many Latino voters has been to make them feel like their Americanness is being questioned, even if they have been here for many generations.
The rampant xenophobia encased in fear of terrorism has made it critical for the legal immigrants, once illegal, to acquire the status that would grant them immunity from narrow legal persecution. However, it is not strange that in this xenophobic wave these people are feeling being threatened and insulted..
In the meantime, the Republicans had their chance for about 6 years to make a statement that the republican party would take care of the American people and they really showed they don't care by their non-actions and clearly directed actions against inmigrants. However, it is not only what Republicans say; it is also what they don’t say. Republicans have been filibustering everything that comes up in the Senate.
It is true that some Democrats such as Jim Webb, Jon Tester and Claire McCaskill vote with the majority of Republicans to kill the Senate immigration compromise, without offering a realistic and achievable alternative that would establish a more humane policy.
But, it is also undeniable that the most vicious, the most wretched, the most offensive, the most revolting, the most ruthless, the most vilifying, the most repulsive attacks have come and are still coming from Republicans.
Just a few examples to illustrate it.
1) Sensenbrenner wanted the criminalization of these people.
2) Newt Gingrich, Former House speaker, who coined Spanish as the Language of the gheto
3) Fred Thompson just slammed Cubans, suggesting that they come to America not in search of freedom, but to bring “suitcase bombs.”
4) Dana Rohrabacher in his speeches is warning “the end of America as we know it”.
5) Tancredo, his motto: "a scourge that threatens the very future of our nation."
6) J.D Hayworth, not reelected, but still instilling hate. No comments.
The list goes on and on.. .
From the beginning, the bill's most forceful opponents were southern Republicans. GOP Sens. David Vitter of Louisiana, Jim DeMint of South Carolina and Jeff Sessions of Alabama led the charge, often backed by Texan John Cornyn.
One thing is certain, the past six years, the Republicans were mum on all issues with immigration reform as just one of them. They controlled the white house and congress. If there is anytime in which a party is able to get things done, it's when they don't have anyone to really interfere.
Immigration was just one of them.
Indeed, the Hispanic vote is hardly a monolithical block. But what the anti inmigrant rethoric has done is bringing them closer together, unifying and solidifying this block.
Therefore, it seems to me that the most recalcitrant and extreme positions are from Republicans, where no room is for middle ground. This whole episode has branded the Republicans as the anti-inmigrant party. So Republicans have done this at a national level. Pretty transparent move they did, and now the immigrant population, IRISH, PHILLIPINOS and many other immigrant groups, particularly HISPANICS, are aware of this issue.
As mentioned before, the most vicious, the most wretched, the most offensive, the most revolting, the most ruthless, the most vilifying, the most repulsive attacks have come and are still coming from Republicans.
For many of them, the following is an undeniable truth: “illegal immigrant” = equals “all Hispanics” = “terrorists” = “Muslims” an statement so widely and shameless repeated over and over.
At any rate, this is the beginning of the legal immigrant backlash directed against the Republican Party for their position on the immigration bill.
By your actions, you shall be judged.!
Posted by: memo at October 31, 2007 10:57 PM (4gHqM)
78 The heroes of America are generally heroes of reconciliation, not division.In politics, some acts are so emblematic and potent that they cannot be undone for decades, as when Republican presidential candidate Barry Goldwater voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Goldwater was no racist; his constitutional objections were sincere.
Members of the Republican Party actually voted for the Civil Rights Act in higher percentages than Democrats. But all of this was overwhelmed by the symbolism of the moment.
In his autobiography, Colin Powell says that after the Goldwater vote, he went to his car and affixed a Lyndon Johnson bumper sticker, as did many other African Americans. Now Republicans seem to be repeating history with Hispanic Americans.
Some in the party seem pleased… They should be terrified.
Posted by: memo at October 31, 2007 10:59 PM (4gHqM)
79 TO MAKE MATTERS WORSE
U.S. Faces 'Reverse Brain Drain' from Immigration Woes, Study Warns
Posted: Today at 7:57 a.m.
RESEARCH TRIANGLE PARK, N.C. – Foreign entrepreneurs, scientists, skilled workers and students are growingly increasingly frustrated with U.S. immigration laws, and many are returning home, a new study shows.The result: The United States is facing what the researchers call a “reverse brain drain.”“For the first time in its history, the United States faces the prospect of a reverse brain-drain,” Wadhwa said in a letter that addressed highlights of the study. “So far, the U.S. has the benefit of attracting the worlds best and brightest. They have typically come here for the freedom and economic opportunities that America offers. “Now, because of our flawed immigration policies, we have set the stage for the departure of hundreds of thousands of highly skilled professionals - who we have trained in our technology, techniques and markets and made even more valuable,” he added. “This is lose-lose for the U.S.. Our corporations lose key talent that is contributing to innovation and competitiveness, and we end up creating potential competitors.”
Posted by: memo at October 31, 2007 11:01 PM (4gHqM)
80 I feel that our immigration laws are just fine the way they are. We just haven't gotten serious about enforcing them. Here is what I propose: We should treat business owners, or employers the same as we do drug dealers. If you own a business and are cought knowingly hiring an "illegal", then your business and all assets get confiscated by the state and sold. Profits go to the Border Patrol.
Enforce this a few times and watch how fast the flow of illegals comes to a halt.
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