NRO Spat On Immigration

I think Goldstein has it about right. Mark Krikorian expresses a general discomfort with all large scale immigrations at this point in our anti-assimiliation history, egal or illegal, and John Podheretz (again) accuses him of arguing in bad faith, as well as attacking many conservatives as nativist and dishonest in their rhetoric.

As Goldstein notes, Podhertz and many of of the Amnestias have a bad habit of adopting the left's language, rhetoric, and stance of moral cleanliness whenever confronting someone who disagrees with them.

To tell the truth, sometimes I lapse into this too. There's a reason the left employs the tactics they do -- they're easy, cheap, emotionally bullying and effective. "Nativist" is just another way to say "racist," after all.

Posted by: Ace at 01:45 PM

Comments

1 John Podhoretz is a schmuck anyway. I don't like his writing and he throws these little hissy fits about lots of stuff. Isn't he leaving NR to go be the editor at Commentary magazine or something?

Posted by: funky chicken at October 19, 2007 01:49 PM (I+jPP)

I am speaking against my self-interest here, but a demography changing influx of foreigners is not a good thing for any country. It is one thing to have a little foreign flavor in the form of a few thousand people from all over the world, quite another to have whole neighborhoods and cities changing into a mini-Mexico, a mini-Arabia, a mini-China or a mini-India. It is not very healthy for a society to have unassimilated foreigners.

Posted by: Tushar D at October 19, 2007 01:59 PM (IlgNp)

3 Yeah. Look, not to be a dick about it, but poor people are a problem economically, and I don't understand the claim that we can become economically mighty by creating lots and lots more poor citizens.

Posted by: ace at October 19, 2007 02:04 PM (1UCRY)

4 How does anyone answer Krikorian's (and Derbyshire's) point that the Southwest is being flooded with Mexican immigrants, illegal and legal, who show no inclination to assimilate, no inclination to adopt english as their 1st language and every inclination to identify with their mother country, not their adopted country? Unless one is blase about America becoming nothing but a collection of disparit populations, there is no answer.

Posted by: ricpic at October 19, 2007 02:05 PM (7DDuE)

5 Podhoretz apparently got some emails about his extremely nasty tone and managed to step on his dick again in a weird attempt to hide behind President Bush's skirts, or position himself as a great defender of the President or something. funny!

Posted by: funky chicken at October 19, 2007 02:12 PM (I+jPP)

6 Jpod is a weasel ...and he got his ass handed to him by Derb, once again. I loved Derb's about presenting some evidence "You got any?" Great stuff.

Posted by: Dan at October 19, 2007 02:25 PM (1bvys)

NRO Spat On Immigration

Apparently, not all of it did.

Posted by: Ralph L at October 19, 2007 02:26 PM (ng7xn)

8 I wish NRO would let you subscribe to a feed that excludes certain authors (like Volokh does, for example, IIRC), so I could block out posts from John "I hate you all" Podhoretz and Kathryn "Abortion! Duran Duran! Abortion" Lopez.

Posted by: Wiz at October 19, 2007 02:28 PM (My+7t)

>>so I could block out posts from John "I hate you all" Podhoretz and Kathryn "Abortion! Duran Duran! Abortion" Lopez.

That would be Kathryn "Abortion! Duran Duran! OMG! Mitt Romney!!!!!!!!! Abortion" Lopez.

Posted by: Tushar D at October 19, 2007 02:31 PM (IlgNp)

10 I'd prefer a feed that left out everyone but Steyn and Frum.

Especially Derb -- what a know-nothing tool.

Posted by: someone at October 19, 2007 02:36 PM (5fxav)

11 but poor people are a problem economically

The USA's "manifest destiny" stage of extensive civil engineering expansion during the push westward is over. We don't need hoards of low skill uneducated laborers anymore.

OTOH, I'd desperately like to see how a democrat president tap dances around their impact on unemployment and poverty rates.

Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 19, 2007 02:37 PM (6Yy5p)

12 It sucks that we can't openly prefer our own culture. If I preferred Japanese people to Americans, I would move to Japan. I wouldn't try to import most of the Japanese so that America would be less American.

Posted by: adolfo_velasquez at October 19, 2007 02:39 PM (zujY4)

>>The USA's "manifest destiny" stage of extensive civil engineering expansion during the push westward is over. We don't need hoards of low skill uneducated laborers anymore.

Purple,

Vast hordes of programmers are still needed to tame the digital frontier. I am here to help!

Posted by: Tushar D at October 19, 2007 02:43 PM (IlgNp)

Jpod is an enormous dick. At least figuratively.

I agree with him on some things, but he should stick to ass-slamming liberals, not fellow conservatives. It just makes him look like a bitchy primadonna.

Posted by: rickinstl at October 19, 2007 02:45 PM (MvmeX)

15 Jpod's dick is fat. Long? Not so much.

Posted by: ricpic at October 19, 2007 03:06 PM (7DDuE)

It is our country, what's wrong with wanting to be more selective about whom we allow to live in the US?

Yeah, there are lots of poor people in Mexico and Central/South America. There are lots of poorer people in Africa. Lots of poor people in Asia as well. If the marketplace can't exist without peons to do the Jobs Americans Won't Do (once wage levels fall below a certain point) why shouldn't we encourage diversity by allowing more of those poor Asians and Africans emmigrate?

It sucks that an Asian immigrant can come here legally, play by the rules, and find themself ejected from the US after their H1B visa expires when illegals from south of the border can be arrested multiple times for DWI and DHS/INS isn't even notified.

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at October 19, 2007 03:22 PM (dJPpF)

17 It is not very healthy for a society to have unassimilated foreigners.

I think we could solve much of this problem if we forbid immigrants to collect any kind of welfare for, say, 5 years, and eliminated any and all of this bi-lingual hooey and made them learn English. If some private business wanted to se habla Espanol, fine, but if you have to get a driver's license, or vote, or get a building permit, etc, you gotta do it in English.

Posted by: OregonMuse at October 19, 2007 04:00 PM (l9TIS)

It sucks that we can't openly prefer our own culture

And that's how we going to commit cultural suicide here. We've allowed the concept of "multiculturalism" to be exalted over any other civic virtue. Sacrifice, patriotism, belief in the rule of law or American exceptionalism; all are passe and stodgy beliefs held by rednecks and nativists. What this country really needs are more Somali restaurants or art shows by Guatemalan Indians. Miami is almost unrecognizable as an American city anymore, and in most border towns you can't order a cheeseburger if you don't speak Spanish. I don't think that bodes well for the future of the culture, and my wife is a legal immigrant from Peru (hope that shields me from the NATIVIST!!! label).

Posted by: UGAdawg at October 19, 2007 04:32 PM (BnZUW)

19 Ace,

Sorry bro'.

I gotta' call bullshit on you on this one.

John Podhoretz made the important and correct point that there is a difference between being against illegal immigration and all immigration, and he called Mark Kriorian and John Derbyshire (who is an immigrant, as is Derb's wife) out on it.

Now John Derbyshire is very smart and a very good debater (and an excellent writer, his books on math histroy are terrific) but he lost this debate.

Yes, to have a mass of immigrants from one culture who are historically opposed to assimilation is problematic, but the solution to such a challenge is not to forbid all immigration out right.

And no, I do not think it wrong, therefore, to use the term Nativist when it comes to those who oppose all immigration, which is just what Krikorian and Derbyshire did.

Lastly, with all due respect to my fellow morons who read AofSQH, Podhoretz is a very, very bright guy, a man of principles, and certainly is fair minded.

His calling out of Krikorian and Derbyshire was par for the course at The Corner, and certainly emblematic of what thoughtful and informed political debate should be.

Just sayin'.

Posted by: MTT at October 19, 2007 07:40 PM (1xjmZ)

20 MTT- Derbyshire countered by saying Jpod was arguing in bad faith bc. Derb has never been against legal immigration...then he challenged to find anything in his well-documented opinions to the contrary. Jpod couldn't and then shut down the debate. How exactly did Derb lose the debate? Derb has too keen a mind to get befuddled by someone like Jpod. And just the way he he snippily writes that he is through discussing the issue is so weak. Did anyone catch that he also tried to smear Derb as anti-semitic by associating him with Jared Taylor? I may be mistaken but it's in there.

Posted by: Dan at October 19, 2007 08:10 PM (1bvys)

21 You know what's annoying? This entire debate assumes only three unyielding positions.

1. Hooray for all immigration, legal or illegal! All immigration good!

2. Hooray for legal immigration! Legal immigration good! Booo for illegal immigration! Illegals bad!

3. Booo to immigration! All immigration bad!

Obviously you can't just throw open the doors to everyone, even if they all abide by the existing rules. Somewhere in all this is an optimum level of legal immigration, broken down by class, education, and skill set. That's what we should be figuring out.*

*Ok, so it's the internets. Fuck it. You all hate children and poor people. And you're also chickenhawks and closeted homos.

Posted by: Warden at October 19, 2007 08:28 PM (rZ5uY)

22 Dan,

I reread the exchanges and I'm sorry but I don't see it the way you do.

Here:

However, your charge that I have faked anger about illegal immigration as a cover for what really irks me�viz. immigration� needs some supporting evidence. You got any?

Pretty much everything 500 words or longer that I have written, for print or the web, this past ten years, is archived on my old web site. The rest is in the Corner archives. Somewhere in there, according to you, should be me saying, or implying: "I'm fine with the current levels, and current structure (e.g. chain migration, anchor babies) of legal immigration. It's only illegal immigration I mind.

In other words, Derbyshire was objecting to be called a "faker" and did not deny that he opposed all immigration.

Podhoretz's point at the end stood uncontested, namely
Whatever is the case, I hope all those who read the Corner and worry about illegal immigration but are not opposed to immigration in principle note that the leading exponents here of an anti-Bush line are unquestionably speaking in support of a no-immigration policy � and that the ideas undergirding their views have little to do with illegality and everything to do with a cultural idea about America that you might not agree with.

After reading the exchanges, i think that is a fair assessment.

And no, I 'm not advocating one position over another, but I think Jeff Goldstein (and Ace) were not fair to Podhoretz in their criticisms. (Especially jeff Goldstein, but I have neither the time or interest to fully formulate a rejoinder.)

And Warden, your point is well taken, it's trying to find the optimum level and kind of immigration that is what we should be figuring out, at the same time we try to help assimilate those who are already here.

Just sayin', again.

Posted by: MTT at October 19, 2007 09:06 PM (1xjmZ)

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