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Shockah: Justice Department Okayed "Severe Interrogations" By CIA of Terrorist Suspects

I'm so upset by this lawless, unconstitutional assertion of absolute executive authority that, as a silent protest, the next time I order Ultimate Nachos from Bennigans I'm not even going to touch the guacamole.

And then when my server Chip comes over to ask if there's something wrong with the guacamole, I'll just hiss through clenched teeth, "No, it's fine. It just tastes like it turned a bit fascist."

We have to fight back any way we can.

Anyway, the NYT continues its courageous War on War:

When the Justice Department publicly declared torture “abhorrent” in a legal opinion in December 2004, the Bush administration appeared to have abandoned its assertion of nearly unlimited presidential authority to order brutal interrogations.

But soon after Alberto R. Gonzales’s arrival as attorney general in February 2005, the Justice Department issued another opinion, this one in secret. It was a very different document, according to officials briefed on it, an expansive endorsement of the harshest interrogation techniques ever used by the Central Intelligence Agency.

The new opinion, the officials said, for the first time provided explicit authorization to barrage terror suspects with a combination of painful physical and psychological tactics, including head-slapping, simulated drowning and frigid temperatures.

Mr. Gonzales approved the legal memorandum on “combined effects” over the objections of James B. Comey, the deputy attorney general, who was leaving his job after bruising clashes with the White House. Disagreeing with what he viewed as the opinion’s overreaching legal reasoning, Mr. Comey told colleagues at the department that they would all be “ashamed” when the world eventually learned of it.

Later that year, as Congress moved toward outlawing “cruel, inhuman and degrading” treatment, the Justice Department issued another secret opinion, one most lawmakers did not know existed, current and former officials said. The Justice Department document declared that none of the C.I.A. interrogation methods violated that standard.

The classified opinions, never previously disclosed, are a hidden legacy of President Bush’s second term and Mr. Gonzales’s tenure at the Justice Department, where he moved quickly to align it with the White House after a 2004 rebellion by staff lawyers that had thrown policies on surveillance and detention into turmoil.

Not hidden anymore. Who turned these opinions over, I wonder?

...

A White House spokesman, Tony Fratto, said Wednesday that he would not comment on any legal opinion related to interrogations. Mr. Fratto added, “We have gone to great lengths, including statutory efforts and the recent executive order, to make it clear that the intelligence community and our practices fall within U.S. law” and international agreements....

After the Supreme Court ruled in 2006 that the Geneva Conventions applied to prisoners who belonged to Al Qaeda, President Bush for the first time acknowledged the C.I.A.’s secret jails and ordered their inmates moved to Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. The C.I.A. halted its use of waterboarding, or pouring water over a bound prisoner’s cloth-covered face to induce fear of suffocation.

But in July, after a monthlong debate inside the administration, President Bush signed a new executive order authorizing the use of what the administration calls “enhanced” interrogation techniques — the details remain secret — and officials say the C.I.A. again is holding prisoners in “black sites” overseas. The executive order was reviewed and approved by Mr. Bradbury and the Office of Legal Counsel.
...

From the secret sites in Afghanistan, Thailand and Eastern Europe where C.I.A. teams held Qaeda terrorists, questions for the lawyers at C.I.A. headquarters arrived daily. Nervous interrogators wanted to know: Are we breaking the laws against torture?

...

The questions came more frequently, Mr. Kelbaugh said, as word spread about a C.I.A. inspector general inquiry unrelated to the war on terrorism. Some veteran C.I.A. officers came under scrutiny because they were advisers to Peruvian officers who in early 2001 shot down a missionary flight they had mistaken for a drug-running aircraft. The Americans were not charged with crimes, but they endured three years of investigation, saw their careers derailed and ran up big legal bills.

That experience shook the Qaeda interrogation team, Mr. Kelbaugh said. “You think you’re making a difference and maybe saving 3,000 American lives from the next attack. And someone tells you, ‘Well, that guidance was a little vague, and the inspector general wants to talk to you,’” he recalled. “We couldn’t tell them, ‘Do the best you can,’ because the people who did the best they could in Peru were looking at a grand jury.”

Mr. Kelbaugh said the questions were sometimes close calls that required consultation with the Justice Department. But in August 2002, the department provided a sweeping legal justification for even the harshest tactics.

I find this absurd as usual:

“I know from the military that if you tell someone they can do a little of this for the country’s good, some people will do a lot of it for the country’s better,” Mr. Hutson said. Like other military lawyers, he also fears that official American acceptance of such treatment could endanger Americans in the future.

“The problem is, once you’ve got a legal opinion that says such a technique is O.K., what happens when one of our people is captured and they do it to him? How do we protest then?” he asked.

Note he's worried about protesting the torture, maiming, raping, and beheading of our captured troops, which we all know is precisely what Al Qaeda and jihadists have planned no matter what we do. He's not worried about stopping this in advance -- something that can be had through interrogations.

He just wants a firm basis upon which to "protest" a soldier already kidnapped, tortured, and beheaded. That's his only worry. A paper protest.


Posted by: Ace at 12:44 PM



Comments

1 Hey man, leave me out of this. In fact, go hang out a TGIF instead. They might be more your style. P.S. Ace is a shitty tipper.

Posted by: Chip at October 04, 2007 12:57 PM (zGHW/)

2 Two words, Chip. "Learn to Type."

Posted by: Steve Buschemi at October 04, 2007 12:57 PM (zGHW/)

3

Well, sue them.  Isn't that what lawyers are for?

The jihadis think habeus corpus means "show us the body."  So they do, after mutilating and beheading them and booby trapping the bodies.

I won't say Justice Department lawyers are useless in a war, but I'd use them to look for IEDs. 

Posted by: MarkD at October 04, 2007 01:08 PM (MMy4A)

4 The classified opinions, never previously disclosed, are a hidden legacy of President Bush’s second term and Mr. Gonzales’s tenure at the Justice Department, where he moved quickly to align it with the White House...

A part of the Executive Branch that's actually aligned with the President?

Outrageous!

And doesn't this sentence imply that Justice under Ashcroft wasn't aligned with Pres. Bush? Did the NYT think that back then?


Posted by: michaelt at October 04, 2007 01:25 PM (sMqat)

5 MarkD: Good suggestion re: DOJ lawyers. At least they'd be doing something useful.

Posted by: GarandFan at October 04, 2007 01:27 PM (+tCxF)

6

The new opinion, the officials said, for the first time provided explicit authorization to barrage terror suspects with a combination of painful physical and psychological tactics, including head-slapping, simulated drowning and frigid temperatures.

I'm sorry, and I know Goldstein considers the whole "who's the real manly man" game to be gauche, but...

What kind of a pansy widdle girl considers "head-slapping, simulated drowning, and frigid temperatures" to be "torture"?  Is there a single (ostensibly) testicle-endowed liberal on the planet, anywhere, that isn't a prissified, effeminate prancing fairy?

Just have the operation, join a Wicca coven, and be done with it, nancies.

Posted by: VJay at October 04, 2007 01:28 PM (kico6)

7 I heard that we might have spoken harshly to one or two of the terrorists.  When you combine that with the fact that the salad bar at Guantanamo is routinely short of croutons, and you have the makings of a humanitarian disaster.

Posted by: Steve L. at October 04, 2007 01:49 PM (hpZf2)

8 What kind of a pansy widdle girl considers "head-slapping, simulated drowning, and frigid temperatures" to be "torture"?

John McCain.

Posted by: OregonMuse at October 04, 2007 02:00 PM (JDGx4)

9

John McCain.

I figure the guy's brain must be broken a bit from the real torture he endured while under the tender care of those subhuman animals in Southeast Asia.

Every guy who's ever joined a fraternity has undergone worse psychological and physical punishment than the fat, pampered terrorists down at Club Gitmo, and the former don't even have any useful information to divulge.  Or usually any plum weed hookups, for that matter.

Posted by: VJay at October 04, 2007 02:05 PM (kico6)

10 But I'm chock full of wisdom! Protein wisdom! ...and yes, fat charisma too.

Posted by: guacamole at October 04, 2007 02:10 PM (kIjlp)

11

I think a good working definition of torture is this:  if you have to go to the hospital (or morgue) after your interrogation, you've probably been tortured.  What techniques do we use that fit that description? Do you have to go to the hospital after being waterboarded?  Seriously. 

If all the other side did to our guys was what we do to theirs, I'd count us lucky.  I wouldn't like it, but I couldn't call it unfair, nor would I call them war criminals. But that's exactly what al Qaida members are.  I agree that they don't deserve to be put in Gitmo.  They deserve to be summarily executed. 

Posted by: hogboy at October 04, 2007 02:34 PM (ICgh9)

12 You mean I might get waterboarded, exposed to loud music or forced to sleep shivering in a fetal position? OMFG, sign me up for that! Sounds like summer camp when I was twelve.   Seriously, can you imagine an American Marine standing around stressing over the possibility of getting waterboarded? Pffft. His concern beyond IEDs and video snipers is more with power tools and scimitars than being subjected to treatment that would have been rejected at boot as "too wussified".

Posted by: Immolate at October 04, 2007 02:35 PM (qHyi8)

13

My main distinction between our interrogation techniques and the torture our enemies have done and will continue to do is the purpose behind each.  We do not apply these techniques for the enjoyment of making the captive suffer as our enemies do. We do it to obtain critical information. Once we determine that we have obtained as much as we are going to or as much as we need, the prisoner will be basically treated like he is a resident of a Holiday Inn for the remainder of his stay.

Posted by: polynikes at October 04, 2007 02:54 PM (m2CN7)

14 When I was in Kosovo, we had a Ukranian SF unit near us. Most of their old guys were Afghanistan-era Spetznaz guys. They told field interrogation stories that would make your dog puke. Really interesting what you can do with a pair of pliers and a cigarette lighter.

Posted by: SGT Dan at October 04, 2007 02:55 PM (oOQel)

15 I posted the question on reddit (quickly modded down too):

The article says the torture was : combination of painful physical and psychological tactics, including head-slapping, simulated drowning and frigid temperatures.


SEALs are subjected to water-boarding as part of their training. Most prisoners confess in under a minute (KSH supposedly lasted over 2 minutes). Is one minute of water boarding too high a cost to extract information from a terrorist?


Its a given this type of stuff should only be used in critical cases, but the left seems to think this means we do this stuff wholesale. 


Criticizing it is all fine and dandy but what is the solution if we stop psychological techniques like sleep deprivation and water boarding?  WB seems more psychological than physiological, since there aren't even short term lasting effects.


Posted by: DavidM at October 04, 2007 03:04 PM (R/e5b)

16 That's all well and good, but how many pieces of flair does Chip have on?

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 04, 2007 05:27 PM (wmgz8)

17 What's this all about?

Lefties don't want to protect America. They WANT Terrorists to kill Americans. After all, they don't like the flag or America either (cue Katie and Obama the Messiah).

They just don't want to say it.

Of course, the flip side is that PC-multi-culti legalism handcuffing government from doing anything is a guarantee of vigilantism. That "Silverado" moment where Kevin Kline's character realizes that Brian Dennehy's character can't do anything if he's dead.

Posted by: Jim Rockford at October 04, 2007 07:50 PM (4878o)

18

SGT Dan,

I understand that the Afghans are some of the most brutal people in the world when it comes to torture, but I think the Soviets are more sophisticated.  They learn it as an applied science.  And they can keep you alive. 

Whoever broke this story probably never considered the possibility that the CIA may have to apply more pain in order to extract the same information.  The reason is this.  It's reasonable that detainees may be under the wrong impression of where the limits are if we ourselves didn't know either. 

So if they say to a CIA agent, "I know that you CIA guys can't touch me becau--WHAM!! SMACK!! SMACK!!  OOMPH! OOMPH SMACK!!! ("YOU DUMBSHIT, I CAN EFFING KILL IF I WANT TO!! BUT FIRST, YOU"RE GOING TO MEET MR. DILDO!!") 

It would tend to throw someone off balance.  The surprise destroys confidence and raises the fear level substantially.  They no longer know what is allowed or how far it will go.  Under these circumstances, it would not be surprising that a typical terrorist would break down quickly.

 

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The Ace of Spades HQ Sex-for-Money Skankathon
A D&D Guide to the Democratic Candidates
Margaret Cho: Just Not Funny
More Margaret Cho Abuse
Margaret Cho: Still Not Funny
Iraqi Prisoner Claims He Was Raped... By Woman
Wonkette Announces "Morning Zoo" Format
John Kerry's "Plan" Causes Surrender of Moqtada al-Sadr's Militia
World Muslim Leaders Apologize for Nick Berg's Beheading
Michael Moore Goes on Lunchtime Manhattan Death-Spree
Milestone: Oliver Willis Posts 400th "Fake News Article" Referencing Britney Spears
Liberal Economists Rue a "New Decade of Greed"
Artificial Insouciance: Maureen Dowd's Word Processor Revolts Against Her Numbing Imbecility
Intelligence Officials Eye Blogs for Tips
They Done Found Us Out, Cletus: Intrepid Internet Detective Figures Out Our Master Plan
Shock: Josh Marshall Almost Mentions Sarin Discovery in Iraq
Leather-Clad Biker Freaks Terrorize Australian Town
When Clinton Was President, Torture Was Cool
What Wonkette Means When She Explains What Tina Brown Means
Wonkette's Stand-Up Act
Wankette HQ Gay-Rumors Du Jour
Here's What's Bugging Me: Goose and Slider
My Own Micah Wright Style Confession of Dishonesty
Outraged "Conservatives" React to the FMA
An On-Line Impression of Dennis Miller Having Sex with a Kodiak Bear
The Story the Rightwing Media Refuses to Report!
Our Lunch with David "Glengarry Glen Ross" Mamet
The House of Love: Paul Krugman
A Michael Moore Mystery (TM)
The Dowd-O-Matic!
Liberal Consistency and Other Myths
Kepler's Laws of Liberal Media Bias
John Kerry-- The Splunge! Candidate
"Divisive" Politics & "Attacks on Patriotism" (very long)
The Donkey ("The Raven" parody)
News/Chat