1 Whatever, dude.  It's a year too early for this.  This sort of browbeating rhetoric has exactly the opposite effect in primary season.

2 That's a pretty impressive lineup on his Justice Advisory team.

Rudy could do a lot of good for himself if he said, or strongly hinted, that Miguel Estrada would be his first nominee to the Court.

And as far as Scalia's age, that's irrelevant because he's immortal. He is isn't he? Oh dear God he better be.

3
Sorry, but all but Justice Stevens are spring chickens in SupremeCourtLand.

4 Whatever, dude.  It's a year too early for this.  This sort of browbeating rhetoric has exactly the opposite effect in primary season.

Given what's at stake, I don't think it's too early at all, especially given how adamant the morons quoted in that article are about their willingness to act against the principles they espouse.

5 I keep waiting to talk to a conservative who says he or she is going to stay home if Giuliani is the nominee. The ones I've talked to (in Tennessee, Louisiana, and Alabama) have all said unequivocally that they will do what they've got to do to keep Clinton out... including rolling the dice on a man who is socially to the left of them.

Sitting this one out would be quite the mistake.

tmi3rd

6
The people who go for these third party types are pretty much unreachable. 
Take the purists on the left who vote Nader for example. 

It's the cut off their nose to spite their face crowd.

7

I remember Toomey. He's the guy who came within a couple points of beating Arlen Spectre in the primary. The braintrust moneyfucks in the GOP senate campaign commite backed Spectre, of course. Bush even stumped for him. How did that work out for you, W?  

8 Funny thing is Pat Toomey was a pro-choice "moderate" when running for Congress (I volunteered for one of the guys he beat) and became pro-life because he pledged to serve only three terms and the only option was to run against Specter.

9

Its All about the courts. Period.

I feel confindent that even tho i dont agree w/ Rudy on everything that he would appoint the right kinda judges to the court. Thats ultimately where the culture war will be fought.

He is not a liberal. Judge him by his enemies, The teachers union, The ACLU, the race hustlers (Sharpton and Jackson) The Media. If those are his enemies how in the hell is he a liberal???

 

 

10 Toomey lost because the fucktard RINOs in the RNC and Bush protected Specter and gave him a shitload of cash and support, Specter woulda lost had they not done that, and we'd have at least had a replacement for Santorum had we done that.

11

The aborted baby poster wavers are the GOP equivalent of the Code Pinkos for the democrats.  Both are extremist lunatics who turn off huge numbers of normal Americans.  Whichever party succeeds in hiding the lunatic fringe will win the 2008 election.

Or perhaps the GOP wins the 2008 election by standing up to the lunatic fringe.  After all, Dobson has already said he opposes Rudy, Fred!, and McCain.  I believe he said he couldn't vote for any one of those guys.  My fervent hope, frankly, is that Fred! becomes the nominee, wins in a landslide, and Dobson and his abortion extremists fade into the woodwork where they belong.

12

I think it's frankly a lot of crap to pin this as "social conservatives vs. moderates". It's a false dichotomy.

Because I'd say there is a growing sense that the tension between fiscal conservatives and moderates in the Republican party is about to blossom into full blown hostility.

Also, the growing sense that the tension between libertarian conservatives and moderates in the Republican party is about to blossom into full blown hostility is quite palpable.

Basically this is what you get when the party is run for a decade or so by squishes who don't care about crap but themselves. I think the moderates are, at some point, by neccessity, going to get pwned if they don't get the hell out of the way. Witness the intense hostility directed toward, for instance, Lindsay Graham...it isn't about social issues or abortion. Or Chuck Hagel.

John McCain isn't polling at 11% because he's too moderate on social issues for values voters. (Especially compared to Rudy Guiliani). And Bush isn't perpetually sucking with approval ratings because social conservatives don't like his position on stem cells.

It's larger then that. By focusing on social conservatives bitching about values issues, the tree is obstructing your view of the forest.

13 "He is not a liberal. Judge him by his enemies, The teachers union, The ACLU, the race hustlers (Sharpton and Jackson) The Media. If those are his enemies how in the hell is he a liberal???"

You could say as much about W.  Yet he came *this close* to permanently wrecking the party and the political right for an ultra-left agenda item.

14

Oh, and those antiwar freaks really helped the democrats in 1968, didn't they?

Of course McGovern wouldn't denounce them as criminals and nutters, right?  Or did he?

15

The Bush analogy is not good for social cons, and you guys should quit using it.  Bush is very much a social con, very anti-abortion, very anti-cloning, very traditional on legal marriage, etc.

He's liberal on stuff that actually matters, like foreign policy and entitlements.

16
These "Vote Principles!" people always kill me. They may vote their principles, but by doing so they enable the opposition candidate that actively supports the issues they are against to win the election. Thus by voting their principles, they are voting against their principles.

I am a social conservative, and Rudy is not my first choice, not even my second or third choice. But I will vote for him if he wins the nomination, because the alternative is worse, a lot worse!

17

Toomey--social con darling.

Santorum--social con darling, incumbent Senator who hadn't slept with a dead girl or a live boy.

What office do they hold?

It's also ridiculous to think that people who like what Rudy did to clean up the cess pool that Dinkins left behind wouldn't volunteer in a campaign for him.  These people honestly do sound just like Code Pink or the hardcore DU types, or creepy stalkers:  nobody loves you or will support you like I do...you'd better not do something I don't like, etc

18

It's one thing to fight it out in the primaries and back candidate x over y.  That's what primary fights are for.

It's another thing entirely to say if candidate x beats my candidate y, I'll let the other party win.

 

That's like saying "I don't like broken fingers, gimme some of that lung cancer please".

19

Well, as Robert Ferrigno (hey, how's your brother Lou?) pointed out, Toomey got screwed by the RNC suits who thought Snarlin' Arlen would go all Jim Jeffords if he lost his election.  Personally, considering the way Specter has spit in W's face since then, the rotten bastard should have been run out of town.

Here's my bona fides: rock-ribbed Republican and solid Roman Catholic.  I think Democrats are out-and-out traitors and that abortion is nothing less than full-fledged murder (in fact, W would redeem himself a hell of a lot in my book if he jammed RICO up NARAL and Planned Parenthood's ass).  My vote is based on which candidate can consistently and effectively uphold the Church's teachings on morality and social concerns (and yes, I've sat out a lot of elections because of this).  I've also long and loudly fulminated against the GOPs perennial take-the-base-for-granted strategy of "well, you don't want [insert generic boogyman here] to win, do you?"

However.

Hillary is evil.  And no, I am not saying this as part of some hyperbolic caricature.  The woman is the most flat-out evil candidate for President I have ever encountered.  She. Has. To. Be. Stopped.  And I mean stake-through-the-heart-stomped-harder-than-Mondale-against-Reagan-stopped.  And if voting for Rudy the abortion squish means keeping Queen Cankles out of the White House, I'll do it.

Not that this decision comes easy for me.  I had to stop reading a number of Catholic blogs - Mark Shea's the preeminent example - who have drunk the Ron Paul toilet water and are reading anybody who even considers Rudy out of the Church.  Believe me, I don't like Rudy's view of abortion.  But a president can't do much, and even having a pro-life man like W in the White House hasn't sufficiently advanced the cause.  How on earth do the nutters threatening to go third party think any Democrat will do when confronted by the myrmidons and money of the Party of Death?  The desperate, slavering orgasms by the left to murder Terry Schiavo would be the merest taste of the "culture of life" under a Hillary presidency.

Saudihater's got it right.  It's all about the courts.  With Rudy, social cons have a seat at the table and can pressure him to appoint the right sort of judge (can you say "don't let the door hit you in the ass, Harriet Miers"?).  With the Crone of Chappaqua and her horny hick husband infesting the White House, we'll have nothing.  We talk about the nutroots destroying the Democrat party - well, the social cons, the Dobsons and the line-in-the-sanders will destroy the GOP if they try this asinine stunt.

I don't agree with everything the Anchoress says, but on this she is absolutely right - if Hillary gets in, it's the finish.

20 Keep your eyes on the prize: the courts. Nothing else matters much. Even a Hillary court will affect the war on terror with a string of terrorists' rights rulings.

21 Toomey was popular for being a solid conservative, not for being a social con darling, Entropy is right, conservatives hated Specter because he was a squish, and that's usually what it is, we're getting tired of moderate squishes.  Bush's 9/11 popularity boost saved Specter's ass.

22

I keep waiting to talk to a conservative who says he or she is going to stay home if Giuliani is the nominee.

I've spoken to quite a few self-identified social conservatives who've told me they'll stay home. Some of them argue that there's no real difference btwn. Rudy and Hillary, so it doesn't matter if the Creature wins. Others say that they'll never vote for Rudy under any circumstances because he's pro-choice. As ridiculous as the 1st assertion is, it's the logic of the latter position that truly escapes me.

The next prez will likely have the opportunity to pick 3 justices. Rudy says he'll pick strict constructionists, which, if true, will aid their cause. At a minimum, they'll have the opportunity to influence the man's choices. Meanwhile, it's a given that Hillary will wholly ignore them and pick judges who ensure that Roe v. Wade stands for the next 30 years, exactly what pro-lifers don't want.

But, hey, there are principles at stake. Talk about the perfect being the enemy of the good.

23 After all, Dobson has already said he opposes Rudy, Fred!, and McCain.  I believe he said he couldn't vote for any one of those guys.  My fervent hope, frankly, is that Fred! becomes the nominee, wins in a landslide, and Dobson and his abortion extremists fade into the woodwork where they belong.

Posted by: funky chicken at October 02, 2007 01:10 PM (I+jPP)

I think you are misquoting Dobson. I remember hearing him in a radio interview say that he likes Fred.

As to your abortion extremist comment - way to go. Attack one third to one half of your own side. That will get Rudy in the Whitehouse for sure.

24 >>>The aborted baby poster wavers are the GOP equivalent of the Code Pinkos for the democrats. Both are extremist lunatics who turn off huge numbers of normal Americans. Whichever party succeeds in hiding the lunatic fringe will win the 2008 election.<<<

In that case, Funky Chicken, we lose.

The MSM is going to make sure every fracture, every nutjob in the GOP is on full display 24/7. Who ever gets the nomination better have some good answers/comments ready for the MSM as they try to tar him.

As always, the MSM will hide the weirdoes for the Dims or portray them in a favorable light. The CodePink/Kos-types would have to stage a full blown Chicago '68 for the news to get through.

At some point, Hillary!'s going to use a Sister Soulja moment against the Truthers(cause that's the obvious target), so who knows maybe we will see riots. But I wouldn't bet on it.

25 Adolfo - Dobson recently sent out an email saying he doesn't support Thompson.

26 Ron Paul?  I thought he was a libertarian.  He's a rabid pro-lifer?  Or are you just using "Ron Paul" as slang for purist?

27

Adolfo - Dobson recently sent out an email saying he doesn't support Thompson.

Well, I'll be damned. Who the hell does he support?

On the broader issue of your post, it's not abortion that's killing our party - it's Iraq. I've got at least three relatives who generally vote conservative, but think that Iraq is Vietnam.

Abortion is important to me - creating Democracy in the Middle East is important to you. Maybe we shouldn't throw stones at each other's causes.

28

Well said, Christopher.

Does anyone think the MSM would report it if some leaders in the antiwar movement claimed that none of the Dem candidates sufficiently espoused their positions? Of course not! They would bury it just as deep as every other story that damages any Democrat outside of Joe Lieberman or Zell Miller.

I am a fan of James Dobson when he sticks with his strong suits, mainly raising a good family. I wish he would shut the hell up, however, about politics. Frankly, I think too much is made about how much social conservatives follow what he says. I travel in heavily evangelical Christian conservative circles, and might even fit Funky Chicken's depiction of an "abortion extremist," but I and those I know understand that anyone on the Republican side is to be preferred to anyone on the Dem side.

Let's save the rhetorical bombs for our true political enemies.

29 Oh, give me a break.   How many times are we going to go through this?  It always ends the same way:  moderates bitch and preen all indignant like, 1 or 2 dickhead social cons threaten to cut their noses off to spite Rudy, and the other 95% of social cons say "Rudy > Clinton".  Can we stop this now?  I don't know who enjoys this shit more, the attention whores who instigate this shit, or the moderates and non-religious folk who get to rant and rave about it.

30 Surprised me too, RonPaul is very much pro-life.  I think he's a doctor, so maybe that's why?

31

I don't think single-issue abortion extremists are a third to a half of the GOP.

If the social cons were serious, and trying to be a positive force instead of throwing abortion tantrums, they'd be backing Duncan Hunter in a big, big way.  He's the best social con candidate out there.  He's hurting for money, he's hurting for exposure, he's hurting for supporters.

Huckabee?  Oy, nanny-state conservative, big time Friend of Bill (and maybe Hill too?)  Ugh. 

32 Funky -  ask Mark Shea.  He's on a "Bush-is-a-torturer-who-has-gutted-the-Constitution-and-Ron-Paul-is-an-originalist" kick.  The fact that Paul makes common cause (by a wink and a nod and not outright calling them lunatics) with the Troofers makes no difference at all.

33

I don't think single-issue abortion extremists are a third to a half of the GOP.

Single issue voters aren't what I'm talking about, as I have at least two issues that make or break my vote: guns and abortion.

However, abortion is one of our party's biggest issues, so I don't see the point in attacking pro-lifers all the time. I like Rudy less every time I read a post like this.

34

J F not K, would you stand outside the GOP convention with huge dead baby pictures if Rudy G or McCain (who is pro-life, has consistently voted that way) or Fred! was the nominee?

Then you're not an extremist.

35 The extremist element of the pro-life movement is in a mood for combat.  Some even want a the provocation of the communist leaning Democrats and their anti life agenda to spark a revolution.  Incrementalism has alway been the answer for their political wish list.  The media will just not care if they protest, but the choices clinics and getting down into the community where these abortion clinics take place, is the answer; you do not change a persons mind by behaving like the raving maniacs of the anti-war left; you convince them with you own quiet determination and decency.

36 However, abortion is one of our party's biggest issues, so I don't see the point in attacking pro-lifers all the time.

I don't think I've attacked them with this post, only pointed out the inevitable effect of what I believe to be their foolish actions, or inactions.  Honestly, I hope the two quoted in the NRO article are not representative of the mindset of pro-lifers as a whole.

37

 Oh, give me a break.   How many times are we going to go through this?

As many times as time allows, until someone goes and ruins all the fun by accidentally correcting the real problem.

38

adolfo, where did I attack pro-lifers?  Where has Rudy, or McCain, or Fred! attacked pro-lifers? 

Or do you equate the quoted passages in slublog's post as being the pro-life message?  It's really not at all attractive, if so.

39

That's like saying "I don't like broken fingers, gimme some of that lung cancer please".

True.  But you do see it a lot.  Often, on this very blog.

If I had a nickel for every comment I have read threatening to stay home if one of those "Northeast RINO's" gets the nomination, I would have a shit load of nickels.

I never could figure out who people think they are punishing by allowing someone who's views they detest get elected.

40 Christopher  whoa.  A strident pro-life, troofer libertarian.  That's just a whole lotta contradictory crazy right there.

41

My husband's whole family is devout, and I mean super devout, Catholics.

But they vote democrat. ?  We don't get it at all.

42

I travel in heavily evangelical Christian conservative circles, and might even fit Funky Chicken's depiction of an "abortion extremist," but I and those I know understand that anyone on the Republican side is to be preferred to anyone on the Dem side.

That may be true for you. But the people I talk to who aren't political but are religious see Rudy and Hillary as two sides of the same coin.

Look, Republicans have screwed up enough by spending like Democrats and ignoring our wishes on immigration and border control. Must we now concede the pro-life issue as well?

No wonder so many stay home and don't vote.

43

Or do you equate the quoted passages in slublog's post as being the pro-life message? 

No, I think the quoted passage was from the craziest bastard on our side that National Review and Slublog could dig up to misrepresent the average pro-lifer.

I don't think that the pro-lifer movement in general has any problem with Fred, or even McCain. Rudy worries us. In the end, I'll probably be willing to vote for him. My wife won't, and a million voters like her won't either.

If voters like her offend you, then don't nominate Rudy and you won't have to watch them stay home.

44

Let me spell this out as earnestly as I can.  I'm 100% prolife. I'm also not stupid, I know the moderates have a hard time merging those points but lets try.

If I vote for what I believe in, and I will, then Rudy at his current state is worthless to me. At bare minimum, he could make assurances that the efforts to expand abortion would die under him. He could simply claim to hold the status quo. Since the year I was born there have been legal abortions due to Roe v Wade, another 4 years of it won't make me happy but honestly it's what I expect no matter how pro-life a person is. However, Rudy has continually flown in the face of a large chunk of the conservitive base on this issue. He's a man of principle, in his eyes, and considers a change on the issue to be pandering.

Well, to my eyes, I owe everything to God. I'm a Christian first and an American second. A lot of people are like me in that we are glad to be part of a country that allows us that. Likewise, we like a lot of the things that the Republicans do because they conform to our view of how the world should be. However, I don't feel any more responsibility to tow Rudy's line because he might be a great shot at beating Hillary when he refuses to represent  my part of the base.

We weren't kissing Bush's or McCains ring over the "comprehensive piece of crap" they tried to push in the summer. They ran against the base and the base said "no." This is the same thing here.

A lot of moderates see this as us picking the stupider of the two evils and allowing the greater evil to win. SO? Abortion has had a 34 year reign in America. My home state of Texas has electively killed over 12 million babies alone. That sickens me and I see no reason to support a person that feels that's a principled stance. If Rudy wants to win, he better learn the lesson that Congress learned this summer. We don't elect you to represent your views, we elect you to represent OUR views. If you don't like that, then don't expect our support. If you want our support then you need to have a "come to Jesus" moment on this issue because I refuse to vote for any pro-choice candidate.

45 If voters like her offend you, then don't nominate Rudy and you won't have to watch them stay home.

Nonsense.  With respect to your wife, her personal decision to stay home is not our fault, and it's intellectually dishonest to suggest otherwise.  Sometimes, you do have to choose between the lesser of two evils, if that choice is presented to you without foisting the blame onto someone else.

46

Because I'd say there is a growing sense that the tension between fiscal conservatives and moderates in the Republican party is about to blossom into full blown hostility.

Also, the growing sense that the tension between libertarian conservatives and moderates in the Republican party is about to blossom into full blown hostility is quite palpable.

Exactly. I'm anything but a social conservative, but I'm ready to sit home.

47

Rob B put it better than I could.

I will vote for the candidate who represents my views. So far, Rudy doesn't do that.

48

Surprised me too, RonPaul is very much pro-life.  I think he's a doctor, so maybe that's why?

I isn't all that surprising when you realize that some people are "pro-life" not because of icky icky stuff, but because they think the state should protect a life.

If you believe, for whatever reasons, that the unborn baby is an individual, it is perfectly consistent to be a Libertarian and be pro-Life. In fact, it is the correct position, since no one has a right to choose murder.

49 Good points, Slu, and I don't disagree.

Except, I have this tiny little issue that I can't quite wrap my mind around:

Every time we hear about those Evil Social Cons cutting their noses off to spite their faces and handing the victory to Hillary by not endorsing Rudy-boy (which would be very valid points if that was the faceoff in the general election, I don't disagree at all and will probably pull for Rudy if it comes to pass even though I won't like it), we never EVER hear anybody mention that we're not IN the general election yet.

Seems to me that if we're going to play the "Get in line or you're a Hildebeest fan", we can play it two ways: Just don't make Rudy the nominee for the GOP. Don't vote for him in the primaries and you won't have the problem with Social Cons refusing to vote in the general election, because HE WON'T BE THE CANDIDATE.

The way I see it, if you're voting for Rudy in the primaries, you're handing the victory to Hillary by nominating a candidate that a lot of actual conservatives won't vote for. So who's cutting off his nose to spite his face now? There ARE other candidates in the primaries, you know, even if you DO believe that Rudy McGunControl is the Only Candidate Who Can Save America.

Bottom line: It's silly. Let's get past the primaries, shall we? Then we can start bitching about who's handing the victory to whom.

As to myself: That liberal RINO isn't my candidate, and I'll do all that I can to defeat him in the primaries. BUT if he manages to win the nomination, I'll just have to hold my nose and pull for him.

There.

Now go back to shilling for Giuliani as if he's the only GOP candidate on the list.

50 For the record, it's between Thompson and Giuliani for me.  My gut feeling is that Thompson will win the nomination.

51 The way I see it, if you're voting for Rudy in the primaries, you're handing the victory to Hillary by nominating a candidate that a lot of actual conservatives won't vote for.

Sorry, but that's your choice.  Own it.

52

Look, Republicans have screwed up enough by spending like Democrats and ignoring our wishes on immigration and border control. Must we now concede the pro-life issue as well?

No wonder so many stay home and don't vote.

RWS is beginning to see the light.

53 Sorry, misread your comment, Misha.  Change it to that's their choice, and they should own it.

54

shrug  When did I say your wife offended me?  She makes her choices, which may be objectively foolish, or counterproductive, toward achieving her goals.  That doesn't offend me.

Like I said, I hope Fred! is the nominee, and I'll even say I hope he picks Duncan Hunter for veep.  I hope they beat Hillary/Obama like a drum in a Reagan/Mondale landslide fashion.  And then I hope James Dobson learns to shut the hell up about politics and quit trying to turn the GOP into the all-abortion-all-the-time party.

It made ZERO sense when Dobson and crew beat up on McCain in 1999, as his voting record is pro-life.

http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/John_McCain_Abortion.htm

Here's Dobson in March, 2007:

Focus on the Family founder James Dobson has dealt a potentially devastating blow to Fred Thompson’s presidential aspirations, saying the former senator is not a Christian.

"Everyone knows he’s conservative and has come out strongly for the things that the pro-family movement stands for,” Dobson – considered the most politically powerful evangelical figure in the U.S. – said in a phone call to Dan Gilgoff, senior editor at U.S. News & World Report.

"[But] I don’t think he’s a Christian. At least that’s my impression.”

Thompson’s spokesman Mark Corallo took issue with the statement.

"Thompson is indeed a Christian,” he said. "He was baptized into the Church of Christ.”

Focus on Family spokesman Gary Schneeberger sought to clarify Dobson’s statement, telling Gilgoff that while Dobson didn’t believe Thompson belonged to a non-Christian faith, he "has never known Thompson to be a committed Christian – someone who openly talks about his faith.

"We use that word – Christian – to refer to people who are evangelical Christians. Dobson wasn’t expressing a personal opinion about his reaction to a Thompson candidacy.”

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2007/3/28/151351.shtml

55

we never EVER hear anybody mention that we're not IN the general election yet

 

except me (1.

 

not that I'm somebody.

56 Now go back to shilling for Giuliani as if he's the only GOP candidate on the list.

I don't believe I was shilling for Giuliani, BTW.  Simply pointing out that should he win the nomination, pro-lifers will face a difficult choice and if they allow the perfect to be the enemy of the not-evil, they will do more damage than good to the cause.

57

This discussion isn't even about abortion for me.  It's about a fringe crowd trying to take over a large political party and force their passionately held belief on every other member of the party.

The Code Pink/dems and Operation Rescue/GOP analogy holds.

Read the first quote again.  Creepy, hateful rhetoric.  Bullying like Moveon does to the dems.  Remember "We bought this party, we paid for this party, they have to do what we want" or whatever the quote was?

Who could possibly replace social conservatives as the GOP’s grassroots

Far better for the GOP to lose in 2008 than for pro-lifers to be marginalized from both parties

Whaaaaat?  OMG it's liberal talk....marginalized.

58

I hate these intraparty fights.

The social libs of AOS might convince me and a few other social cons to vote for Rudy, but no way in hell are you going to reach the other fifty million Republican voters.

If you want to see really low turnout among your base, go ahead and nominate an anti-gun, pro-open borders, pro-abortion candidate.

I would rather spend my effort for Thompson or Romney.

59 I hate these intraparty fights.

Yeah, but better we hash this crap out now than in the general.

Let's all look on the bright side, though - at least it isn't going to be McCain, who I trust only slightly more than Hillary.

60

Right- the abortion issue is the ONE AND ONLY difference that conservatives have with Rudy.

His view that it would be alright if a constructionist judge upheld activist decisions like Roe v Wade.   His anti-gun record.  His sanctuary city policy.  His belief that illegal immigration is not and should not be a crime.  Could any of those also have something to do with it?

Abortion isn't anywhere near the top of the list of issues I'm most concerned about, but count me in the "stay home or vote 3rd party if Rudy is nominated" crowd.  When he screwed the pooch by punting on the Roe v Wade question in the debates, he lost all credibility with respect to judicial nominations.

I view his "Justice Advisory Committee" as nothing more than a pandering attempt to offset his weakness on this issue.  After all, what use would a candidate have for a "Justice Advisory Committee" in the party nomination process, 15 months before he'd even have the chance to nominate a judge were he to win both the primary and general elections?  Answer:  None.

61

Great, another "abandon your principles" post by Slublog.

During any election, any primary, the Democrats attack the Republicans, and the Republicans attack the...Republicans.

Wait. What?

Yeah, while the Democrats are running around with practically zero accountability, the Republicans are being attacked by Democrats and fellow Republicans. Yep, we're just that stupid.

Word of advice: Set your sights on the Democrats. Or, we can argue about the perfect candidate with the perfect platform, and maybe we'll have a perfect candidate by 2009.

Repeat after me: Republicans good. ALL Democrat candidates bad.

62 My gut feeling is that this is all just primary season maneuvering. If Rudy gets the nod, I'm guessing that the social con leader types will "meet" with him and get themselves "satisfied" that whatever his past, he has the right intentions for the presidency.

63

"[But] I don’t think he’s a Christian. At least that’s my impression.”

Posted by: funky chicken at October 02, 2007 02:21 PM (I+jPP)

That is the Dobson misquote he addressed in the radio interview I mentioned up the thread a ways.

According to Dobson, he was entirely misquoted in your statement.

I don't care one way or the other about his political views, but it's not fair to condemn him for a quote that he didn't make.

64 I will vote for the candidate who represents my views.

No you won't.  You'll vote for the candidate who comes closest to representing your views.

The only person who actually represents your views 100% is you, and last I heard, you aren't running.

65 Great, another "abandon your principles" post by Slublog.

Oh, stuff it.  See anything about abandoning your principles in that post?  My point is that should Giuliani be nominated, it's coutnerproductive to do what the pro-lifers quoted in the NRO article are considering.

66 The extremist element of the pro-life movement is in a mood for combat.

Yeah, like all extremists. Here is a local example of that I was amused by.

67 Right- the abortion issue is the ONE AND ONLY difference that conservatives have with Rudy.

Since that was the only issue mentioned in the article I was actually responding to, then that's what I chose to focus on.  I'm well aware of how intransigent you are on this particular issue, so spare me.

68 No you won't.  You'll vote for the candidate who comes closest to representing your views.

Posted by: sandy burger at October 02, 2007 02:35 PM (PQyeQ)

No, actually, I will vote for the candidate who meets a bare minimum standard of representing my views. I care about immigration, guns, abortion, to a lesser extent, economic freedom. Most Republican issues are fine, but my political money and energy can only go for a few causes.

Rudy sucks on all of them.

69

Rudy sucks on all of them.

Posted by: adolfo_velasquez at October 02, 2007 02:40 PM (WWdg

Actually, in a quick web search, it looks like Rudy's record on economic issues has been above average. So, I take that back. Rudy just sucks on every one of my most important issues.

I think his candidacy would lead to a great lack of enthusiasm in the general election, and a Hillary presidency.

70 I hate these intraparty fights.

I kinduv like 'em.  I think of it as an opportunity to laugh at how freakin' weird some of my ideological fellow travellers are, and hopefully to tweak Bart's nose a little if the opportunity presents itself.

It's like a food fight breaking out at the cafeteria.  Only with tears.

Now somebody help me dump these mashed potatoes on adolfo's head...

71

adolpho, he wasn't misquoted.  His spokesman confirmed the quote the next day and elaborated on it.  Dobson backtracked on his radio broadcast, but the quote is and was accurate.

It may have been taken out of context, but why then send out the spokesman to confirm and elaborate the next day, and just complain that you were misunderstood a few days later?

The recent email shows Dobson hasn't  changed that position either.

72 What I want is the "Rinseandspit Never Has To Pay Taxes Again Bill of 2009". If the Republican candidate doesn't get behind me and my bill, I'm not voting for him.

That makes about as much sense as what I'm reading here. If I can get 10% of what I want, I'll take it versus 0%. Heck, if Hillary wins, it's more like -100%.

The simple fact is that poll after poll after poll show the public wants to have legal abortion, but they want it to be contolled. That's political reality. The other reality is that short of nominating Supreme Court judges, the President can do very little.

The best, the very best thing a president could do for pro-life is nominating strict constructionists and get Roe vs Wade overturned and sent to the states for voting. That's it. Under our system, that's it. And in the end, we'll still have abortion, in some if not all states, but at least we'll have a vote on it and the controls of it.

If Hillary! wins, we will have a court hostile to the pro-life stance, if not actively expanding abortion rights, for decades. Her health plan will enshrine taxpayer funded abortions forever.

I believe Rudy's position is his attempt to defuse the issue by pulling a reverse democrat stance - that is, personally he believes abortion should be legal BUT, he wants strict constructionists presiding over the SC decisions in the future.

This is a view that is "nuanced" in such a way to attract independents and moderate Democrats as well as giving Republicans what they want in reality. Is this so fucking hard to understand? What would you rather have, real action that cuts the number of abortions or a pat on the head so you can feel good?

Me, I'll take actions over feel good words any day of the week.

73 By the way, I could be happy with Fred, Mitt or Rudy. Hunter for Veep definitely.

74

RWS is beginning to see the light.

Beginning? Sweetie, I've been bathed in the light for years.

;-)

 

75

Since that was the only issue mentioned in the article I was actually responding to, then that's what I chose to focus on.  I'm well aware of how intransigent you are on this particular issue, so spare me.

I understand that; I wasn't so much criticising you as the general insinuation we keep hearing over and over that pro-lifers are the only conservatives adamantly opposed to Rudy winning the nomination.

I consider the issues of Roe v Wade being overturned and abortion as being two seperate but overlapping issues.  Personally I'd be fine with a pro-choice candidate for federal office who was a strong advocate for constructionist judges who would overturn activist decisions including Roe v Wade.  A federal abortion ban isn't going to happen anyways- witness the fight over the partial birth abortion ban.

76

adolpho, he wasn't misquoted. 

According to his interview, he claims he was. In fact, the tone of his statements is also being mischaracterized in this post, by implying that Dobson cares only about abortion and will stay home rather than vote for the current candidates. Here's a full quote explaining his position:

In addition, Focus on the Family Action has issued a statement saying, "Dr. Dobson was attempting to highlight that Senator Thompson hasn't clearly communicated his religious faith, and many evangelical Christians might find this a barrier to supporting him." The statement goes on to say that Focus was "pleased to learn from his spokesperson that Senator Thompson professes to be a believer."

Dr. Dobson has yet to endorse anyone for president, but did tell U.S. News & World Report that former House Speaker Newt Gingrich was the "brightest guy out there" and "the most articulate politician on the scene today."

http://www.gopusa.com/news/2007/march/0330_dobson_thompson.shtml

If he was going to support Newt, then maybe he's not so full of that rich, creamy religious zealotry as you imagine.

 

77 A federal abortion ban isn't going to happen anyways- witness the fight over the partial birth abortion ban.

Or the fight over the FMA, for that matter.

Sorry for being twitchy.  I'm in an Al Swearengen sort of mood today, without all the cussin'.

78 _{Okay, maybe a little cussin'}

79 Well argued post, but I still think that you're full of shit. I give you Joe Carter's response to this type of logic:

There are two assumptions buried in this idea of "electability." The first is that he is electable because we social conservative will support him despite the fact that many of his positions and values are antithetical to our own. We will vote for him, they believe, because the alternative is even worse.

The second, related assumption is that Rudy is more palatable to the so-called independent swing voters than other candidates. They are also saying that the preferences of these independent voters are worth more consideration than those of social conservatives. We longtime Republican supporters are expected to set aside our moral qualms about the candidate simply because he appeals to a fickle group of swingers who may be able to affect the election.

In essence, we are being told to toss aside our principles and kowtow to the demands of a group of Republicans who have sold out conservative values for a pottage of pragmatism.

If that is what the GOP has become, then count me out. If Rudy is the nominee, then I and many other social conservatives will be staying home on Election Day. I'm telling you this now so that you can factor in this information when you are in the voting booth during the primaries. The time to choose the lesser of two evils comes during the primaries, not in the general election. If you think you can elect the Mayor without our help, then go with your first choice. But if you gamble and fail, you will be to blame. We offered you the minimax -- and you chose Hillary.

You don't have to like that analysis, but I believe that it's spot on. The social cons have told you who they will NOT support in the general. If you decide to nominate him anyway, you're actively pursuing a policy which will guarantee you a loss of 10-20 million voters.

For the record, I as a social con would hold my nose and pull the lever for Guiliani over the Glacier. The only current GOP candidate whom I would not vote for is McCain, but that's not really going to be a problem since he has no chance of getting the nomination. However, if you want to bitch and moan that my ideological brethren won't vote for a candidate that they've told you emphatically that they  will not vote for, then you deserve whatever you get.

Oh, and I don't think it's going to matter much because I think Fred will win the nomination, rendering this discussion moot before it becomes problematical.

80

Family advocate James Dobson, widely considered an important GOP rainmaker, says he will not vote for former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani under any circumstance in the upcoming presidential elections

While Dobson does not endorse candidates in his role with Focus on the Family, he told a talk radio host in January he would not back Arizona Sen. John McCain for the Republican nomination.

"Speaking as a private individual, I would not vote for John McCain under any circumstances," he said.

Dobson, according to Focus on the Family, was "attempting to highlight that to the best of his knowledge, Sen. Thompson hadn't clearly communicated his religious faith, and many evangelical Christians might find this a barrier to supporting him."

Dobson told Gilgoff he had never met Thompson and wasn't certain that his understanding of the former senator's religious convictions was accurate.

"Unfortunately, these qualifiers weren't reported by Mr. Gilgoff," the group's statement said. "We were, however, pleased to learn from his spokesperson that Sen. Thompson professes to be a believer."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55736

Addressing an issue some regard as a hindrance if he runs for president, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich confessed to evangelical leader James Dobson in a radio interview airing tomorrow to moral failing regarding two previous marriages and said he has "gotten on my knees and sought God's forgiveness."

Dobson's Focus on the Family provided WND with a transcript of Gingrich's remarks, which will be broadcast tomorrow on the group's daily program as the second of a two-part segment.

Dobson asked Gingrich about his personal life at the end of a discussion about the former congressman's book, "Rediscovering God in America."

Gingrich said the subject of his two divorces, including an affair that took place as he led impeachment proceedings against President Clinton, is a "very painful topic and I confess that to you directly."

Dobson told Gingrich he knew him to be a "professing Christian" with whom he has prayed, but said that when they discussed the subject privately in Washington a few weeks ago, "you spoke of it with a great deal of pain and anguish, but you didn't mention repentance. Do you understand that word, repentance?"

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54617

Pathetic.  James Dobson seems to believe himself to be a latter day Pope.  He's not any of these mens' pastor, yet he wants to meddle in their lives and their celebration of faith. 

81 Don't be stupid, pro-lifers.  Don't feel like you have to accept an unrepentant pro-choicer like Giuliani but don't blow up the party and whatever you do leave the posters at home.

82 Who cares whether the candidate is pro-life or pro-choice... It only matters how he/she feels about activist judges...

83 Carter's post is well argued, but I have a real problem with allowing someone else's pique to guide my vote.

Basically, Carter is not giving any sort of credit to those who think Giuliani is the best candidate for them on principle.  There's no "let the best candidate win" mentality here - he's offering a false choice.  "Choose who you want but pick the wrong guy and you lose" is thuggish at best.

I probably agree with Carter 95% of the time.  But I have a real issue with a minority of an organization issuing threats against what could prove to be the majority - instead of threats, why not spend time convincing others that your values should be the party's values?  In making such threats, Carter is admitting social conservatives don't have the political clout to nominate their own candidate, so their only power resides in their ability to deny victory to the candidate that looks as though he's going to be chosen by the majority of the party.

In that case, why belong to a coalition at all?

84 I have to say, though, that if a rupture comes people like Slublog will be just as responsible.  Like a lot of commenters, he's treating social conservatives like they're the enemy.  They might just take you at your word.

85

physics geek?

I think I love you.

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

86

Pathetic.  James Dobson seems to believe himself to be a latter day Pope.  He's not any of these mens' pastor, yet he wants to meddle in their lives and their celebration of faith. 

I can't disagree with you there. Newt, with all of his flaws, would certainly not be my first pick.

87 I have to say, though, that if a rupture comes people like Slublog will be just as responsible.  Like a lot of commenters, he's treating social conservatives like they're the enemy.  They might just take you at your word.

Own your own decision, EoI.  Personal responsibility used to be a conservative ideal.  Guess that gets tossed out the window when you've got to finesse the fact that in doing nothing, you're allowing evil to flourish.

88 Carter is admitting social conservatives don't have the political clout to nominate their own candidate

While the non-social cons don't have the political clout to elect someone that the social cons find completely unacceptable. Let me state for the record that people like my sister and brother-in-law (so straight-laced that I feel like a Kennedy when I'm around them) feel like they've been taken for granted for a long time. Vote for liberal Republicans because you don't have a choice! I think that they've finally realized that they have a choice, and that choice is to not keep getting screwed without being kissed, while being told that they should just lie back and enjoy it. I'll second the Emperor's comment about social cons being treated "like they're the enemy". If you keep treating them like they are, sooner or later they will in fact become the enemy. Just something to keep in mind.

89

Or the fight over the FMA, for that matter.

Sorry for being twitchy.  I'm in an Al Swearengen sort of mood today, without all the cussin'.

DO IT AGAIN AND I'LL RIP OFF YOUR FUCKING HEAD AND SHIT DOWN YOUR NECK!!!

_{Or maybe just buy you some ice cream.  But not your favorite flavor.}

90

Own your own decision, EoI.  Personal responsibility used to be a conservative ideal. 

You should take personal responsibility for picking a candidate who is weak with the base. If Romney wins the nomination and loses against Hillary, I'm willing to accept the blame. If Giuliani loses, he's all yours.

91 While the non-social cons don't have the political clout to elect someone that the social cons find completely unacceptable. Let me state for the record that people like my sister and brother-in-law (so straight-laced that I feel like a Kennedy when I'm around them) feel like they've been taken for granted for a long time.

Which is kind of not true.  Two words: Terri Schiavo.  The Congress and the president took a major hit for that, and I applaud them for their actions on it.  But they took a principled stand and haven't been given enough credit by the pro-life community for doing so.

Same with stem-cell research and partial birth abortion - the pro-life side got some love there, as well.  It's a fallacy to say they've gotten nothing out of their association with the Republican party.

I'll second the Emperor's comment about social cons being treated "like they're the enemy". If you keep treating them like they are, sooner or later they will in fact become the enemy. Just something to keep in mind.

That was certainly not my intention, but if I feel someone is acting foolish, I'm going to call them on it, whether I agree with them on principle or not.

92 I'll second the Emperor's comment about social cons being treated "like they're the enemy".

Having disagreements is not treating you like "the enemy".

Whoever gets nominated will certainly be more socially conservative than I like, but you don't hear me saying that I'm being treated like an "enemy" or disrespected by my party.

If you keep finding that Republican candidates are less conservative than you are, maybe that's a hint that most of America is less conservative than you are.  Yeah, it sucks that the rest of the nation doesn't see things the way you think they should, but deal with it like the rest of us do.

93 You should take personal responsibility for picking a candidate who is weak with the base.

I'm well aware that nominating Giuliani would be a gamble, and if he loses then bad on me if I vote for him in the primary.  However, the difference between me and the "sit outers" is that if I vote for Giuliani in the primary, and he loses anyway, I will vote for the winning candidate to keep the White House in the hands of the party I believe will better run the country.  In that way, I'm a little less culpable for what happens should Hillary win the presidency, as I am willing to choose my second or third choice over someone who opposes everything I stand for.

I'm a Rudy-leaner, but not sold completely on the guy.  I'm waiting to see how Thompson does in the debates.

94

Just admit it, you guys are afraid of a fight.

You worry about what people think of you.

You can't stand the heat from the "enlightened ones" in the media.

You cringe when you see pro-life bumper stickers.

I bet none of you had the stones to put a Bush sticker on your car in '00 or '04.

 

You're the same people who are too embarassed to support Rush Limbaugh. You're the same people are the first to condemn Ann Coulter. You all better wake the fuck up and look at what the Democrats are doing to dismantle America. The Religious Right, whoever they are, are not the problem. Spend your energy attacking the Democrats. Or keep quiet and let the grown ups handle the politics.

The so-called rightwing Christians are an easy target for the Dems -- we don't hit back. And now we have you ninnies attacking us? Fuck that.

95

Don't be stupid, pro-lifers.  Don't feel like you have to accept an unrepentant pro-choicer like Giuliani but don't blow up the party and whatever you do leave the posters at home.

Nominating Rudy would have the effect "blow up the party".  That's the problem.  You can berate the social cons and other conservatives opposed to him, but that won't change the fact that there is some strong opposition to Rudy within the Republican party base.

I understand that he does have supporters based on philisophical grounds, but it seems that there's also quite a few who have the attitude of "well, I don't agree with him, but I'll vote for him because he has the best chance to beat Hillary".

I don't buy that argument; even if it were true, his elecability advantage over Thompson against Hillary is too small to justify overlooking his flaws.  The Republican party is in trouble, and it's not because they've been too stingy on spending, growth of the federal government, and too tough on illegals.  They're in trouble because the opposite is true, and the best way to regain unity is to nominate someone a conservative that Republicans- including social cons- can rally around or at least tolerate instead of someone who'll further split the party.

96 Who's attacking you, Bart?

We're trying to find the most electable Republican candidate, and you guys are shrieking and hollering about staying home.

97 Ass-U-Me, Bart.

You cringe when you see pro-life bumper stickers.

Nope.  In fact, every year I give money to a pro-life organization here in town.

I bet none of you had the stones to put a Bush sticker on your car in '00 or '04.

Both election cycles.  And I worked for a university at the time, so don't talk to me about being afraid of a fight.

The Religious Right, whoever they are, are not the problem. Spend your energy attacking the Democrats. Or keep quiet and let the grown ups handle the politics.

Sorry, Bart.  I'm a firm believer in being hard on the stupid in your own family, as well as the stupid outside it.  We spend too much time condemning the Democrats for not taking on elements of their own party to ignore it when it happens in ours.

As for the Rush and Ann, thing.  I support Rush because he's helpful to the party.  Ann, not so much.

98 You all better wake the fuck up and look at what the Democrats are doing to dismantle America.

That's a great reason to stay home in 2008, then, right?

99

<i>Toomey lost because the fucktard RINOs in the RNC and Bush protected Specter and gave him a shitload of cash and support, Specter woulda lost had they not done that, and we'd have at least had a replacement for Santorum had we done that.</i>

I disagree. The Democrats were hoping and praying that Toomey would win against Specter, because their moderate Democrat Joe Hoeffel would then have had a much easier to beat in the general election. Unfortunately for Hoeffel, Specter beat Toomey, and won reelection handily -- in a state which Bush lost.

Then in 2006, Santorum lost his seat to a moderate Democrat because he was perceived by the general voters as being too far to the right. (Precisely the way Hillary hopes to present her opponent in '08.)  

The problem is, there are plenty of Republicans who would rather endure having a Democrat in office than endure Arlen Specter. They would also rather endure President Hillary Clinton than President Rudolph Giuliani.

100 Posted by: Hollowpoint at October 02, 2007 03:32 PM (rf03a)

Haha.  You forgot Al's favorite word...

101 I am going to do the inverse.  If you social cons don't hold your nose and nominate Rudy, I am going to stay home on election day. 

102 My problem with the Bart wing of the party is that when they don't get exactly what they want, they attribute it to malice on the part of the rest of us.

What you seem to not realize, Bart, is that I am as aware of what the Democrats are doing as you are.  What I'm also aware of is that this country is more liberal than you are, and so your dream candidate may not win.  I believe that your dream candidate may result in a Democrat victory.

Maybe I'm wrong about who's the most electable, but instead of having an intellectual debate about that, you insult me by saying I'm demonizing you or too weak to fight or some nonsense like that.  It's BS.

103 THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING.

Why didn't we see it before!?!

104 #16: Thus by voting their principles, they are voting against their principles.

That's precisely what they don't seem to get. Obviously it's not just on the Republican side that certain people believe cause and effect don't apply to their voting. Recall how a lot of Democrats were ready to tar and feather Ralph Nader and his minions in 2000.

The arguments I've seen from the "stay home" or third party people usually take the form of: Why choose the lesser of evils instead of voting for no evil? or Hey, don't blame me because candidate x was elected; I didn't vote for him/her; I just voted my conscience!

The problem with the first one (apart from being a hackneyed expression) is that even in the primaries you will have to choose the lesser of evils unless there's a candidate who agrees with you 100% on all issues or you write yourself in.

The second argument, I believe, reflects not only a lack of logical thinking but also a misunderstanding of how our system of elections is supposed to work. If the nominee from your party isn't someone you agree with 100%, and because of that you decide to vote third party or not vote at all, then your action has the very same effect as voting for the nominee of the other party no matter how hard you try to rationalize it as "standing up for your principles" or whatever. Also, you don't get off the hook by then claiming it's not your fault, but of those who didn't vote your way in the primaries. If, in November of 2008, the choices are Giuliani and Clinton and there are enough stay at homes or third party voters on the GOP side to give the election to Hillary, then the actions of those people will be directly responsible for her election.

105

A lot of these theories about how moderate the rest if the country is don't seem to explain Reagan's two terms. Conservative principles clearly explained and defended win. The problem is we simply don't have a candidate capable of explaining and defending conservatism, partly because they are not really conservatives.

We're crying to one another about how we're each conspiring to elect either an abortionist or The Cankled One when the fact is we don't have another Reagan coming in off the bench. That's the problem. I'd like to hear Sandy or any of our other moderates tell me they wouldn't vote in a minute for another Reagan and expect that candidate to win.

It's not the principles that are killing us here, it's the lack of talent,

106

A lot of the rabid hatred being thrown Bush's way on Iraq is simple psychological displacement; they actually loathe his conservative social values and are using Iraq as a club with which to bash him, even though, in practice, he has handed rhetorical red meat to his party's wing yet governed mostly from the center, like Clinton and Reagan did.

For me, the GWOT eclipses every other issue, or all of them together - it isn't even close.  That's why I support Giuliani.  Not only does he 'get it' on the GWOT, from bitter personal experience in NYC, as well as any of the other Repub candidates and better than most, and not only does he seem to be, so far, the most electable of the Repub candidates due to his ability to draw moderate-to-liberal swing voters who are concerned for the safety and security of this nation (and it IS imperative to defeat Hillary or any other Dem candidate, precisely BECAUSE of the GWOT), but also, I contend that his moderate-to-liberal views on domestic social issues may well, to a certain extent, mollify and defang the leftist psychological-displacement-motivated attacks on the GWOT.

Having said that, should any of them be the party nominee instead of Giuliani, I would vote for Thompson, Romney, Hunter, and even McCain, over Hillary, Obama, Richardson or Edwards.  Because they 'get it' on the GWOT - and so far as I have seen, the Dems do not.

107 It's not the principles that are killing us here, it's the lack of talent,

Oh, sure.  Here we are having a nice little throwdown and you have to come in and make all sorts of sense.

108

I agree with Funky.

Well...kinda.

This discussion isn't even about abortion for me. 

It's about absurdist minorities painting the majority of this country as a fringe group that needs to accept marginalization.

It's not about abortion. But the vast majority of republicans (and quite a few democrats too!) are social conservatives. Traditionalism is the default position of any "I fight for the little guy" populists like Bill O'Reilly for a reason - it's where the people are. Non political persons have a fall back of being socially conservative. On a question like gay marriage, you get 70-80%+ support on the conservative side of the issue.

On even the most contested issues, like abortion, the public is NEVER any further left then dead center. 50-60% don't want to outlaw abortion, nationwide, under all circumstances tomorrow. But 50-60% do want to outlaw D&X procedure, nationwide, under all circumstances, tomorrow.

You're just a bloody fool if you think social conservatism is a losing political position. You've got now, 30-40% of the country (15% of which is conservative, tops, mostly democrats) telling us we have to abandon social conservatism in order to get elected, and we just have to face it.

Problem is, this isn't about social conservatism either.

They do the same shit with amnesty for illegals. And everything else. One by one they beat back every principle in the entire conservative agenda insisting, essentially, that this party can't win.

And then you're left with 95% of the conservative base kowtowing to Mel Martinez.

Now the democrats get away with being far left on social issues because they don't frame them as a matter of preference (or rather, they do, but don't try to argue who's preference should be followed). They say it's a matter of liberty. Sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong. But that's just rhetoric, in reality they're a bunch of unreconstructed social marxists.

The libertine wing of the GOP, you'd think, would be all about chasing those Free to Choose votes, and going after democrats - a great many of whom themselves are social conservatives by preference but don't think the law should force the matter with shit like bans on gambling. They could woo these democrats by saying they're against gambling personally too, but don't think the law should be brought down against it because it's a matter of freedom.

In fact, you could try to woo these "social conservatives" (by which, it seems you are talking about, some extreme minority that's as oblivious to all non-social issues as many of you are to social issues, NOT the majority of our party which cares about - and gets shafted on - BOTH).

But do we discuss and argue IDEAS and talk about what are positions should be on these issues?

No. We browbeat them and tell them to shove it. Instead of trying to convince them, we tell them they need to suck it up and accept not getting their way.

Then maybe throw in a "on everything" at the end. Getting their way "on everything". Because that's REALLY what they're demanding isn't it. Nothing short of EVERYTHING. They never compromise, ever. That's nice, because it makes us seem less like dicks when we tell them to shove it, like demanding their vote without actually earning their support is somehow reasonable and rational that way and not just being dickish.

And if it infantilizes them in the process, oh well fuck em. Stop demanding you not be infantilized "on everything" social cons. Fuckin babies.

109 It's not the principles that are killing us here, it's the lack of talent

I believe that that has been the case for a long while now.

110

We're trying to find the most electable Republican candidate, and you guys are shrieking and hollering about staying home.

Electability matters, but is it really the one and only thing we should be looking for in a Republican candidate?  Even when the electability of the candidate in question is only slightly greater than a more conservative alternative?

111 Those are exactly the reasons for social conservatives to oppose a RINO like Giuliani in office. Because he won't nominate Scalia and Thomas, he'll nominate Kennedy and Breyer.

112

Last night, in an interview with Fox's Bill O'Reilly, Rudy Giuliani again put himself squarely in the president’s camp on immigration reform. The mayor is for tough border security, but he has also made the case in recent speeches that real reform must include a guest worker program and a “path to citizenship.”

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2006/08/rudy_on_immigration.html

Mmmmm, that's a real good candidate you got there.

113

In 1993, Giuliani met with then-President Clinton to discuss national gun registration and supported the Brady bill, which had recently passed, but Rudy argued that it didn’t go far enough. Clinton, largely crediting Giuliani for the idea, enthusiastically sent Atty. Gen. Janet Reno off to develop a gun-licensing and registration system.

In May 1994, as the battle over the ban on certain semi-automatic firearms reached its height, Giuliani threw his support behind the ban. On the eve of the final vote, he noted that so-called assault weapons “have no legitimate purpose.” When the ban passed, Giuliani commented that “this is an important step toward curtailing the indiscriminate proliferation of guns across the nation.”

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=19883

114 It's not the principles that are killing us here, it's the lack of talent

I blame Bart.

115

pg:

I believe that that has been the case for a long while now.

It's time to ask ourselves why. I think I know the answer. It's because we let the media caricaturize the best or ours. We don't defend anybody unless they are as pure as snow. We let DeLay swing because we knew he was not really One Of Us, a little too sneaky, a lot too power-mad. We lost Gingrich on total bullshit ethics charges figuring if there were 70 accusations, at least one of them must be true.

The Donks don't do this. If you toe the leftist line, you can be a Kleagle, a drowner, a gay whoremonger or an ABSCAM un-indicted co-conspirator. The Left will defend you to their last breath.

We can pat ourselves on the back for our high-minded ethics, but we're losing good talent on mere accusations.We're perfectly willing to go fucking ballistic over comprehensive immigration reform, but we sit back and let the media and the Left run roughshod over our talent on the slightest chance they might be right, the guy could be a crook or a philanderer.

Well, from now on I say Fuck that, he's our guy until you prove it in court! Who's with me!

116

Not my first choice but I will vote for Rudy if he is the nominee as I believe he will keep his word about the changes he has made in his prior positions.  I believe he will nominate contructionists to the courts, support the 2nd admendment as it stands now and will stay silent on gay marriage. I believe he will take the positions I agree with on the WOT, Israel and the military. The thing that worries me the most is his position on illegal immigrants which I believe is more liberal than moderate.  

I frankly believe Fred Thompson is not up to the task of POTUS.  I believe his tenure as a Senator supports this view, especially his chairmanship of the campaign finance investigation committee.  The turnover in his campaign personnel and lackluster fund raising efforts also points to this concern.  And just as he did in the Senate, I think he is capable of taking positions contrary to what he would be expected to take. When the going gets tough, the POTUS must get tougher.  Thompson has shown when the going gets tough, he goes back to acting.  I will really have to hold my nose if Thompson gets the nomination.

117 We don't defend anybody unless they are as pure as snow.

On the flip side, we've tolerated asswipes like Trent Lott.

118

Rudy is EXCELLENT on the GWOT and TAXES. He says he would appoint the right kinda judges to the Supreme Court. Judging by his legal team I believe him.

If (and its a big IF) Rudy gets the nomination how is the pro-life movement helped by sitting home and allow Billary to fuck up the country even further?? The next president will appoint atleast 3 more SC judges, You really want more UCLU types on the court social cons???  More Ginsbergs and Breyers anyone???? 

What the fuck ever happened to putting the COUNTRY's interests above your ideology??? For the record Rudy isnt my first choice, Newt was. IF Rudy is the nominee he will most certainly pick a pro lifer as a running mate, maybe Huckabee or Newt.

Rudy isnt out to re-write the party platform on social issues, hes out to kill America's enemies, thats what his candidacy is all about. You cant have a 'shining city on a hill' if a bunch of jihadists just blew it the fuck up.

Making war on the jihadists for me is a 'values issue' and i believe he will prosecute this war without APOLOGY, without GUILT, and without REPRIEVE until the enemy is no more. That is the creed that was passed on to us by our grandfathers and it good enough for me.

119 How did we tolerate Trent Lott?  We removed the guy from Majority leader because he gave an old man an inocuous compliment at his birthday. Tolerance gone wild.

120 How did we tolerate Trent Lott?  We removed the guy from Majority leader because he gave an old man an inocuous compliment at his birthday. Tolerance gone wild.

I think it's more his big spendin', amnesty-lovin', 'let them eat cake' ways that bother me.

And his hair.

121 Yeah, we turned on Trent for the wrong reason.  Instead, we should have turned on him for being a corrupt and incompetent.

122 OT:  Bart, here's a little gift for ya!

123

.  
Instead, we should have turned on him for being a corrupt and incompetent.

I don't know about corrupt in the legal sense but agree with incompetent. I did not like having to defend him when that idiotic firestorm started.

124 I've been waiting for the right time to use my mother's most recent bit of wisdom about politics. She recently told me that she'd "vote for a Republican monkey if it got the nomination."

She said that because she recognizes that even a Republican monkey would be better than a Democrat in the White House. Purists that claim they will sit home for the election (the ones that aren't bluffing) are enabling the very result they'd like to avoid.

125 I frankly believe Fred Thompson is not up to the task of POTUS.

Thanks for raining on my parade, ya jerk.

Well, I'm off to invest in T-shirts which read "I Survived The Hillary Years"...

126 I kinduv suspect that a lot of the "purists" will actually vote Republican in 2008, they're just talking about sitting out because they're trying (as we all are) to steer the party in the right direction as they see it.

As to Trent being corrupt, I don't mean that legally, I mean it morally.  (e.g. defending Democrats when law enforcement is probing their shady dealings, because he wants to protect his own quid pro quo arrangements, his hostility to porkbusters and the like, etc.)

127 I don't believe I was shilling for Giuliani, BTW.  Simply pointing out that should he win the nomination, pro-lifers will face a difficult choice and if they allow the perfect to be the enemy of the not-evil, they will do more damage than good to the cause.

And you'd be right.

It's just that sometimes I get the impression that some people have already decided that Rudy is the Chosen One and that we must all assume that he is to be given the nod.

If I misunderstood you, which it seems that I did, I apologize.

128

After my initial post, I'll add something, if Rudy were to win the nomination then the problem isn't going to be getting the message of the lesser of two evils across to me. I understand that. As I said before, My whole life abortion has been legal. Rudy, Rommney, Fred, McCain and the like can't change that. If a Republican President could I believe that Reagan would have. The Courts can. With one ruling the whole thing can be flipped back.

I think it's admirable that Rudy wants strict constructionist judges. I do, as well. However, I trust the views of what constitutes a "strict constructionist judge" more from a candidate that sees the arguement of the right to life as one that the constitution implies as opposed to one that does not.

For that reason, without a revision in his stance on the issue, I won't vote for Rudy in the primary. If he does win the nomination, honestly, it will be difficult for me to not be pragmatic in voting for what I would truly consider the lesser of two evils. But as for my family, I know for a fact that they were adults during the Roe ruling and they won't vote for someone that doesn't want to see it reversed. They don't blog and they aren't pragmatic and they'll be mad enough to not vote if the Republican party cares so little about thier concerns that it leaves them behind.

Additionally, remeber two other things. Dobson has some pull but just because he says "jump" doesn't mean that we all say "how high." Our idealogy is dictated by God, not Dobson.  Take anything he says with a grain of salt because he seems to have an issue with pride.

Secondly, the polls don't mean as much to me because those who vote in primaries trend toward the older set who tend to be more Religious due to age and demographic when they were growing up. As a result, without a modification of stance, I'd wager we get Fred and hopefully with Huckabee or Hunter as the veep.

129

Romney?  More pro-choice than Ted Kennedy Romney?

Mandatory government health insurance Romney?

ROMNEY is your conservative saviour?  Oh dear.

130

Judd-LOL  yeah, it occurred to me that the social cons are projecting (again?) with this stuff.  Every big election it's always them saying that if the party nominates somebody "too liberal" on abortion or gay marriage they will stay home, and then saying they're being dissed by the rest of us.  Hello?  You guys are the ones trying to influence other people's votes by threatening to take your ball and go home.

GO FRED!  Dr. Dobson, take your ball on home, fella.

131

Romney was pro choice based on libertarian ideals but is now prolife and has explained how he came to this position to the satisfaction of many in the prolife movement.  Nobody was more pro choice than Roe and look at her now.

Romney also implemented a health plan in his state that allowed for universal coverage with continued free market ability.  It was generally looked at as a very smart alternative and out of the box thinking to a very complex  problem as the state was incurring over a billion a year in uninsured health costs. This program, while not a wash, is fisically prudent. Besides, Romney made it clear that this was a state initiative and that the States and not the federal government should have the choice to implement their own health care coverage or not.

 

 

132 Here's the thing about voting in the general election: Even if your guy isn't the nominee, you literally have nothing to lose unless you can't think of a single issue the Republican is better than the Democrat on.

Both candidates are against abortion? for gay marriage? anti-gun rights? That sucks, but if there's even one single way in which you think a Republican would be an improvment over a Democrat, then you've just found your excuse to vote.

I can't claim to be a Christian, but I'm willing to bet I'm as socially conservative as the best of them, so believe me: I know where this dismay and sense of having to continually retreat on values questions in the name of electability comes from. I really do. But as others have pointed out, that's a battle we fight in the primaries. That's what they're for, to let us, rather than a bunch of party mandarins, decide who we want to nominate. Of course, it also leaves the possibility that your guy might not be the one, but you know what? That's fucking democracy.

I find it impossible to believe that a social con, even if he is 100% opposed to Rudy Giuliani's views on abortion (or any other particular issue), can't find a single issue on which his stance is better than Hillary Clinton's or Barack Obama's. Look at it this way: refusing to support the lesser of two evils is, for all practical intents and purposes, supporting the greater of two evils. Simple as that.

That having been said, Spongeworthy and Entropy are right about social conservatism just needing a decent spokesman. Conservatism is (and people often laugh when I say this) a complicated and subtle thing, and it resists being fit into neat slogans that look good on bumper stickers, but that doesn't mean it can't be explained and defended if someone just has the balls to do it.

133

Romney was pro choice based on libertarian ideals but is now prolife and has explained how he came to this position to the satisfaction of many in the prolife movement.  Nobody was more pro choice than Roe and look at her now.

Forgetting the fact that before his miraculous pre-campaign switch to being pro-life that he specifically endorsed Roe v Wade being upheld?

Being pro-choice is no excuse for supporting activist decisions.  And it took how many decades for Roe to change her mind?  I suspect it took Romney about 30 seconds after being advised that his election chances would be better if he reversed position.  His explanation of how he came to change his mind is ridiculous and rings false.

134 I don't give two shits where you stand on abortion.  Do you really want to let the anti-military crowd into power during these times?

If you vote 3rd party or stay at home you will be stabbing every single soldier/sailor/airman/marine in the back.  Get off your high-horse and do the right thing.

135 For the record, it's between Thompson and Giuliani for me.  My gut feeling is that Thompson will win the nomination.

I used to think this, but my gut feeling now is that Fred! is going nowhere and his campaign will sputter out and die before too long.

Which is a shame because he's my favorite GOP candidate.

136

I'm not confident about Rudy and the Supreme Court.  I'm not sure whether he will follow through.

But as much as the Republican Party has been screwing over its base lately, it's been a lot more faithful to the social conservative wing than to those who focus on fiscal issues.  The Supreme Court nominees were good and, beyond that, Bush has been reliable when it comes to abortion.  If anybody is in a position to b***h, it's the fiscal wing of the Party.  It's hard to remember a group of people going to Washington in '94 for the ostensible purpose of cutting government spending.  It seems odd for social conservatives to be the ones threatening to bolt and, if that happens in large numbers, I think you could see a decent amount of fiscal conservatives just throwing up their hands and saying to hell with it.

Plus, I'm anti-abortion, but if Dobson’s involved in something I’d take that as a general sign it’s not a good idea

137

If anybody is in a position to b***h, it's the fiscal wing of the Party.

Again, it is implied that there are 2 wings of the party.

But amongst the real base of the party, most people are both fiscally and socially conservative at the same time.

But we like to make people pick which one they like more, and then pretend like it's the 1 issue that is all they care about in life, so we can expose fault lines we just arbitrarily created and shoot at each other across them.

138 Wait, this isn't a flame war thread?  Damn it.  I just assumed none of us brought our A game today...

139

"But amongst the real base of the party, most people are both fiscally and socially conservative at the same time."

I agree, but to the extent this is an issue, it's between people who care much more about social than fiscal issues and the other way around - and those people are in our party.  I'm perfectly willing to entertain the arguments that it's not going to be a big problem, and I'd love to argue it's not going to be any problem at all, but, for a demonstration, read the hotair.com thread on Giuliani Link  Hopefully this isn't that many people on election day (and hopefully Giuliani will pull in people to vote Republican), but we do have them here.

140 "But if you gamble and fail, you will be to blame. We offered you the minimax -- and you chose Hillary."

Wrong.

Just as wrong as Lex Luthor telling Superman that Superman made him do it when he threatens something bad.

The people who chose Giuliani will have chosen Giuliani (if that is what happens) because they prefer Giuliani.    If the majority of registered Republicans do not like him they will nominate someone else.  

The people who throw a snit and make sure that those who chose Giuliani will be punished by behaving so that Hillary wins are the ones who will have chosen Hillary.

Own it.

As someone said.

And own the resulting supreme court as well.

141 Duuudes --

Giuliani could open "Rudy's Gay Marriage Chapel and Abortion Clinic" in his backyard and still get the Republican nomination and the Presidency.  Get over yourselves.

Oh, and he will appoint Mitt to head the Department of Homeland Security.  Put those crazy business organization skillz to work.

And teh Fred! will be his first Supreme Court nominee.

142 And I suppose it won't make any difference but...

When Clinton was elected, religious conservatives near had a meltdown.   It was like facing the fact that God wasn't omnipotent and had let the wrong guy win.

Seriously... how many of you are old enough to remember that?

The assumption seemed to have been that Reagan, and Bush, had been protecting Christian interests.  

I figured that maybe God was trying to get us to wake up to the fact that our government, our President, really wasn't protecting Christian interests at all.   (Not being willing to personally doubt God's omnipotence,  Bill Clinton's victory had to be His plan.)   Seriously, Reagan was great in a whole lot of ways and was very good at articulating some things, but in *fact* our government and laws and our *society* became more and more socially liberal during all that time.    It was *afterward*, after Clinton won, that people started to really work against abortion, for example.    People who had been comfortable before started to take action themselves.

Longing for the good old days of Reagan (and I don't dis the fellow's significant attributes) is longing for the days when everyone believed it was all good and that *someone else* was taking care of business and when we were comfortably ignoring the dissolution of families and any number of social issues.

The answer isn't electing the perfect guy and somehow having, again, a government that takes care of us.   The answer is to take care of ourselves.  To stand our *own* moral ground.   Ron Paul is a nutter of the first degree, but whomever pointed out that libertarianism and social conservatism go *very* well together is quite right.   

143

Synova,

I am old enough to remember it. I became politically active, that is, donating money and time to defeat the CarnyFlimFlam and the Hildebeest because of it. I have paid for it personally. That my fears were realized did and does not mean that God is not omnipotent. The CarnyFlimFlam and the Hildebeest did bring about the loss of Congress for their party, the Slavery party, for the first time in 40+ years. I am a libertarian, and I have voted for Libertarians locally.

I also remember that Ronaldus Magnus had to deal with a Socialist Congress that routinely declared his budgets and policies as DOA. Nevertheless, his successes were much less that they would have been had he had a Conservative or Libertarian Congress.

There is no way that I will vote for a Democrat running for a Federal Office, unless said Democrat denounces Socialism. Since H*ll will freeze over centuries before a Democrat will denounce Socialism, I expect that I'll be voting for the Republican. If Rudy G. is the nominee, so be it. I will vote for him, particularly if the platform remains pro-life, pro-gun owner, border security, anti-entitlement, and pro-war (Iran, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, North Korea, and any other despot who attacks us or our allies).

Government is not God, nor is it inherently good or noble. Government is about power, therefore it must be strictly limited at all levels.

144

Blarg, great post.

The Romney thing just cracks me up.  His wife donated to Planned Parenthood.  Heh, yeah, on libertarian grounds.  Gawd, believe it if you must, but don't expect a whole lot of company there.

I'm pro-choice, so Romney's position on abortion isn't important to me.  To be honest, the whole abortion issue isn't important to me.  I do think Roe v Wade should be overturned so the states can vote and decide on the issue.  If Alabama wants to be a no abortion state, and the majority of Alabamians vote that way, so be it.  I'd guess Massachusetts citizens would vote to keep at least first trimester abortion legal.  shrug.

What's stupid and freakish about the types of people in the original post is their laser like obsession with one issue, and their craziness in threatening to demonstrate like lunatics with pictures of dead babies at the GOP convention if they don't like the nominee.

145

You people bitch about Bush's fiscal laziness, his open borders, and everything else every day, but you want to nominate Giuliani who is further to the left on every issue.

What are you getting for your vote? Giuliani isn't even a great fiscal conservative:

"On the spending side, Giuliani changed gears roughly halfway through his tenure. After allowing no real budget growth during his first term, he boosted spending by 23% in his second. While Giuliani faced an "out-year" budget gap of $2.3 billion left by David Dinkins, his last budget projected a $2.8 billion shortfall for his successor - before 9/11 blew a hole in the tax base."

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2007/08/06/2007-08-06_rudys_real_tax_record.html

146

Look, Republicans have screwed up enough by spending like Democrats and ignoring our wishes on immigration and border control. Must we now concede the pro-life issue as well?

No wonder so many stay home and don't vote.

RWS.. God Bless You!

The over zealous religious right are way down the list of things wrong with the GOP these days.

I don't believe that it's all the religious rights fault that the GOP is getting is ass kicked by the Democrats in fund raising.

147

You people bitch about Bush's fiscal laziness, his open borders, and everything else every day, but you want to nominate Giuliani who is further to the left on every issue.

Hammer, meet nail.  Nail, meet hammer.

148

The only people who don't vote their principles are those who don't have any.  Forget trying to separate people with principles from the principles themselves; it's sort of impossible.  I vote on principle, and I can guarantee you I would not vote for McCain under ANY circumstances, not even to keep Satan's Uglier Sister out of the White House.

Not only that, the people who agree with Giuliani's personal pro-abortion stance don't exactly make the best advocates on this issue.

With those 2 statements out of the way...

Giuliani has said he would appoint Scalia-like judges regardless of personal conviction and that the abortion issue is not a matter for the courts to decide.  Screw the prefix "social;" that stance makes him a conservative on the issue, and anyone who wouldn't vote for him based on this position is not a conservative, but rather someone who needs to stop reading the Bible and start reading the Constitution.

149 I was listening to Econtalk in the car today and they were discussing political campaigns. Did you guys know that in 1980 Reagan won the pro-choice vote while Carter won the pro-life vote? Only in 1984 did Reagan campaign more on pro-life.

Anyways, I've always been a Libertarian GOP kinda guy and have had to put up with religious types in our party for many a year, who now tell me that they won't vote GOP because they won't get their way and have a southern Christian run for office. Gee thanks. Some of the libertarian wing did that in 2006 and it didn't turn out well, either.

GOP is imploding and will do so until we have a nice solid 8 years of socialism with progressive characteristics. Then maybe we can pull together. Or not.

p.s. I put up with people saying GOP members are all fundie gay-haters who speak in tongues and then have gay sex before denying it to everyone. You think maybe you could rein in those Haggard types for an election cycle? Maybe some saltpeter in their food?

Ducks.

150 Actually, I think Rudy should really use a bit of the Contract for America style thinking to unite the various chunks of the base. Even if he thinks an amnesty is a good idea personally, he can run on a platform that is an acceptable compromise.

I think it is a acceptable for a Pol to say he personally believes in something, but run on a compromise position.

151

Man, are you people misreading this post and the comments.  Nobody here is shilling for Rudy, or saying Rudy is the best/perfect/"electable" candidate for the GOP this time around.

The whole point of the post and comments is that IF Rudy somehow wins the primary, it would be foolish and crazy for the abortion-is-the-most-important-issue-facing-America crowd to throw a tantrum and stay home or vote for Hillary! or whatever. 

It's also annoying to be threatened by the likes of James Dobson (former BFF of Ted Haggard) .

Oh, and it's super funny to listen to people scream that Rudy is a scary, offensive liberal BUT Romney is a rock ribbed perfectly acceptable conservative.

I'll give you that Romney has talked tougher on the border.  What was his record as governor on the issue?  Was it better than Rudy's mayoral behavior?

152

Oh, and again, I'm a Fred! supporter at this point, but it's disengenuous at best to say Rudy, a guy who grew up in a blue collar Catholic family is pro-abortion.

He doesn't think the government (particularly POTUS or mayor of NYC) has a role in outlawing abortion, uh, that's very different from being pro-abortion.

blarg has a great post above....

153

hollowpoint--Rudy is preferable to Bush because he's a self-made man, and a hot-tempered, steely eyed SOB who told a Saudi "prince" to go stuff himself and his $10 million blood money gift.

Oh, and Rudy thinks the way to deal with criminals is to get them off the streets and into prison, or into the cemetary where they can't hurt their fellow citizens any more.  I'd guess that attitude would extend to enemy combatants and nations as well.

He's not my first choice, but I do prefer him over Romney.

154 I'm a one issue voter, and that issue is the war. Right now Rudy is my man, mainly because I think he takes this shit personally. They attacked his city, killed his friends, and given the chance, he won't rest until every last one of them is worm food. But shoudl he fail to get the nomination, I will vote for any republican (excluding Ron Paul) because they would be so much better on my issue than any democrat (except Joe Lieberman and he isn't running).

I will have a problem with any candidate that does not begin and end every stump speech with "Delenda est Mecca"

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Have you heared about a game which you need use rf gold to play, and you can also borrow rf online gold from other players? But you can buy rf money, or you will lose the choice if you do not have rf cp. If you get cheap rf gold, you can continue this game.

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silkroad gold is so cheap now. Here is a guide skilling fast. This guide is short and simple so you will not get confused. Most players do this trick in gaining skill exp because if you punch a monster with sro gold. If you are going to observe it, punching a monster will slow you level right if you have silkroad online gold. But punching a monster will level your skill fast and gain some silk road gold. Because skill exp is based on the number you punch or use your cheap silkroad gold and not on how strong your damage is.

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Do you know the aion kina, in the game you need the aion gold. It can help you increase your level. My friends always asked me how to buy aion kina, and I do not know he spend how much money to buy the aion online kina, when I see him in order to play the game and search which the place can buy the cheap aion kina. I am happy with him.

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