1 Exit question: do admissions like this help or hurt their efforts with the American people nowadays?

In a sane world I would say of course it hurts them but alas we live in a world where people think it's our fault that some Islamic whackjobs flew  airliners into buildings.

2 This type of control is necessary if a national health-care system has a chance of working. Preventive care yields long-term savings of both money and medical resources.

Control won't end there. Once I'm being forced to pay for your healthcare, I should have a say in your lifestyle choices, right?

Are you a smoker? Sorry, that's out because it costs me too much to pay for your heart diseases and your frequent lung issues.

Are you fat? I'll need you to stick to a dieting regimen...or pay a "fat surcharge" for treatment of weight-related illnesses.

And, yes, there will have to penalties for noncompliance. The system simply won't work any other way.

3 What if I like rough, unprotected, gay sex and sharing needles? (And hey, who doesn't?)

Who's gonna respect my lifestyle choices?

4

"if you aren't covered by a spouse, or have an existing health plan better than what we offer, you cannot opt out of the service plan."

That was during a union 90 day update, prior to being "allowed"/forced into the plan.

because I didn't have a wife, and was healthy and didn't need a "health plan" since, most of those plans wouldn't cover most of the shit I would go to the med's for anyways.

I wasn't ALLOWED! to opt out.  The reason I wasn't allowed, is because they don't get their false rates of reduction without forcing individuals who don't want to take part into taking part.

I wasn't allowed, by a private company.

5

Anything not good for you is bad. Hence, illegal. Alcohol, caffeine,
contact sports, meat--

...chocolate, gasoline, uneducational toys
and spicy food. Abortion is illegal, so is pregnancy
if you don't have a license.

We're on our way to Utaopiaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh......

6 Oh, and I'm afraid hobo meat is off the menu.

7 Thank goodness for John Edwards.

Ever since I was a little child, reading history books, I was disappointed I missed my calling.

I really wanted to be a slave, to have a master make major decisions for me, without my input; and to be punished if I didn't properly obey.

Now, with the help of John Edwards, all of America can have those pesky choices taken away and made for them by their betters. 

And why stop at health/dental/vision care?  Why not deal with food purchases, employment, housing, clothing, and all of those day-to-day choices and expenses that are just too much for free people to deal with?

But I'm getting ahead of the plan here... one step at a time.  Starting with health care.

8 Great job Gekkobear.

9 So, if you don't go to the doctor, what happens? You go to prison? What ever happened to "Keep your hands off my body, politicians!" "A woman's right to her own body" "The right to choose" etc.

10 also great doc.

11 I really fear that the American public is ready for such nanny-statism. Bush and the Pubs haven't really even tried to sell real conservatism, fiscal or otherwise. I think (though I fervently hope against) that the public is ready for some path -of- least -resistance (readEm majority) government. And it will suck.



.

12 remulak, it will suck indeed, but how else will America throw the yoke of the new deal, social security under nixon, and the gratuitous pork taxes that have grown immensely?  It always seesm that once an entitlement is given, it's nearly impossible to revoke it.  It would take nearly a revolution to undo all these programs and return to personal responsibility for those who truly need to learn that lesson: losers.

Only one way to get there.  The democrats have to push the expensive nanny state so far that we have a major economic crisis leading to the realization that you cannot tax one group to subsidize voting blocks.  Once America realizes that it must outlaw that practice, then we may finally rid ourselves of these programs at the constitutional level.  It will take a hell of a lot of pain and waste to get there, but I do not think it will have been in vain.  Might take 30 years, but we'll get pissed off eventually and refuse to accept this form of government.

Or so I naively hope.  We can have sanity for 12 years at a time, but it only takes two years for a congress and prez to align who will enact more enormous burdens for the productive to carry.  There seems no way to revert back under normal circumstances, so universal (va style) health care is not a matter of "if" but of "when".

13 Sad thing is that the media has spent the past 7 years convincing America that George Bush is a conservative.

It is their revenge for the term liberal being made a bad word.

It works like this - you have to vote for the progressives because Bush was a conservative and you don't want another 4 years of that do you? If so we haven't been paying attention to the news we have created about him after all we created this poll that says you hate him and he is evil.
DKK

14

living in germany i am forced to buy their much vaunted social medical plan.  it's not cheap mr. moore, etal!  every day the costs grow and the coverage shrinks.

a few years back our government insurance carriers had a requirement that everybody visit a dentist every six months.  the penalty for those who chose not to was:  future dental care would no longer be covered and any costs for such was to be borne by the rebel who refused to visit his dentist when he had the mandatory opportunity.  it mattered little as today dental coverage here is nearly nonexistent.

social medicine sucks.  great bloody queues to see a doctor.  uncaring medical people running as many through the office as quickly as possible.  recently about half of germanys doctors struck for higher pay (bus drivers in the u.s. being better paid than some).  doctors at a hospital in northern germany refusing to perform surgeries on smokers.  and there is much more.

is that the sort of care americans want?  if you want to know about social medicine, do not ask messers moore or edwards or any of the others so intent on forcing it down our throats, ask the english or the canadians or even the germans.

 

15

Finally, a real Democrat saying what all Democrats think.  Why should you have to go to the doctor John?  Why don't we have roving doctors in SUVs driving through our neighborhoods to track down those that missed appts.  Have soldiers capture them, and forceably make the submit to an exam, including the turn your head and cough technique!

Afterall, our soldiers in Iraq and going to need a job when the war ends and they do these jack-boot tactics everyday now anyway. Its the perfect plan...

16

Simple strategy,

You must destroy your enemies ability to wage war, or limit those capable of it (clausewitz)  Thing is that, the "enemy" for the dem's?  is republicans.

Dem' congres, but a republican president, AT LEAST 2-4 more years of  this crap.

At least thats my prediction.

17

hows this?

It was wisers idea, I just REALLY took part.

18 And as part of your doctor's visit, please step into this shower. Pay no attention to the almond scented disinfectant...

19

Very illuminating comment dt.

Unfortunately, many Progressives are actually frustrated communists. Explaining how the real world works to them is like trying to talk sense into a brick wall.

Utopianists being inherently silly believe that even though their proposed system has encountered problems elsewhere, it will finally work this time, as long as they are in charge of course.

20

"If you are going to be in the system, you can't choose not to go to the doctor for 20 years. You have to go in and be checked and make sure that you are OK."

You know what I call that? A recipe for lower health care costs.

Mmmhmm. Mandate 330 million people have to go the doctor whether they or sick or not. And the government pays for it.

Costs will plummet! It's basic economic ignorance people. Science. Sorta..

21 I actually prefer to have my medical decisions made by someone who cares passionately whether I live or die. Namely me.

22 It's statements like this that show how far out of touch with America and Amercians Edwards is.  Also show how far out of touch he is with our laws, our Constitution , our history and our National ethic.(I could go on, but I've bored myself already!)  No vote for him.  He is a ass!

23 lauraw and entropy pretty much have it right.

But, I think even the leftards see how fiscally disasterous national health care is. That's why they're flailing about for the workaround to reality.

Preventive care is cheaper so let's force everyone into preventive care - We'll save a bundle! This is basically - Hey, I just saved $100 cause I bought a new $3200 hdtv at the Labor Day sale at Best Buy!

And in it's way, this is the same thing as the greentards. The rich, the politically connected will all have excellent health care. You and I, well, we'll just have to sacrifice meat, beer, driving, freedom etc for the greater good in order to wait six months for our cancer surgery.

24 Can anyone stand something positive here? On Saturday, I had to go into the hospital, due to a serious episode of atrial fibrillation. (They thought I might have had a heart attack, but it was a false alarm.) The ER staff was courteous, efficient, and skillful; the care I received excellent. They got me squared away and out within 24 hours. And no, I am not making this up. No doubt, I'll need to be re-admitted when the bills arrive; but right now, I'm very happy with my experience.

As for John Edwards: putting a malpractice lawyer in charge of the nation's health care is absolute madness. Christ, it's like putting a jihadist in charge of homeland security! Which is the Democrats' next move, no doubt.

As for what the future brings, I'm just waiting for Edwards or someone like him to propose planting chips in everyone's skin to monitor our health - to make sure we take our meds on time, and also to tattle on us when we, say, have a portion of fries, or drink one beer more than we're allowed, or light up a cigar. No, I am not joking about this: Edwards and the Democrats have the full-blown welfare-plantation mentality - that is, if we pay for you, we own you, and there's no way for you to opt out of us paying for you. So it's only a matter of time before they propose it: for our own good, of course.

25

Ah, here come the forced abortions because we don't want to have to pay for your disabled child.

But, I think even the leftards see how fiscally disasterous national health care is.

I wish that was the case with all the leftists I know. They firmly believe it's the governments responsibility to take care of us in every way they can imagine.

 I remember this girl from Canada talking about how great the healthcare there was, except she was here for fertility treatments, go figure.

She said the hospital beds in Canada were crank operated and not electrical like the beds here in the U.S. and if we would all sacrifice and have things such as crank beds, we could afford to have government healthcare.

26 Let's do some math,shall we.

Over 300 million people will be forced to visit the doctor for this annual check-up. Depending on how invasive Edwards plan is, the check-up will take at least an hour of the doctors time. That's 300 million physician hours, which works out to over a million physician hours per day if offices are open 300 days per year. If each doctor can perform 8 of these check-ups per day, it will take 125,000 of them to provide just this service, assuming of course, none of them take a day off. Since they will be government workers, they will get generous vacation time, so we will more than likely need double that amount of doctors to make this program work. That does not include the support staff.
I think it is safe to assume we would be adding another half a million people to the government payroll.

And, if each check-up is billed to the government at a cost of, oh, let's say a mere $100 (right), then that's 30 billion in costs alone. Add in the salaries of the half million workers and we are talking about serious cash. God forbid anyone actually get sick There will be no doctors to attend to the patient, and no money to pay for it.

It will HAVE to be preventive care, because we won't be able to afford to have anyone get any kind of disease.

One other factor.. The 300 million will have to give up a few hours of their time once a year, whether they are sick or not. Based on how well the government runs institutions like the DMV, I'd say 4 or 5 hours of their time. That's billions of hours of wasted taxpayer time. Time they will have to take off from work or school. I suppose we should pay for that time while we are at it too.

27

Magical Pat, you have pointed out the flaw in Edwards argument, but he has the cure.  The government will fund ONE doctor degree for every household.

DONE! There, no doctor visits necessay, the exams can be done at home, by the trained family member who will report the results to the Central Committee.

This has the added benefit of the government having someone in the home to monitor medical information, like fat intact, couch potatoedness, deviant practices, etc.

28 John Edwards and the democrats offer us veteranary care for human livestock.

29 Maybe I could get my annual check-up at AAA when I get my vehicle sticker. The same people could take care of both.

Genius I tell ya.

30 I think he should start by going in to get an enema and flushing all that crap out of his body.

31 I can't believe I am about to do this, because he is by far my least favorite of the major Presidential candidates of either party, but I think that Edwards might be getting an unfair shake here.

While granting the point about how totalitarian it might 'sound', let's look more carefully at what he said:

"If you are going to be in the system, you can't choose not to go to the doctor for 20 years"

Now, if there is going to be a socialized health care system or not is one thing. However, what he is saying here is that if you are going to accept the 'free' health care, you will be responsible for the preventive doctor visits. If you do not hold up your end of the bargain, you do not get the free goodies.

I oppose socializing our health care; however, if we do have it then I do want it that I am not on the hook with my tax dollars for those who decide to negligently avoid the doctor's office for 20 years. And yes, I know that is the foot in the door for other nannyism controls like not wanting to pay the health care costs of smokers, etc, but IF we are going to have socialism, I don't want to pay for the negligence of others.   

32

This idea comes from a man who's wife(a lawyer) and was so stupid that she did not get a mammograph for ten years.

She was "shocked" to find out she had breast cancer. 

Blame it on Bush or Global Warming, she certainly shouldn't have to take any responsibility for her condition.

Kemp

 

33 Utopianists being inherently silly believe that even though their proposed system has encountered problems elsewhere, it will finally work this time, as long as they are in charge of course.

Posted by: lauraw at September 03, 2007 08:24 AM

Funny, I've been saying this for over 20 years.

They also think that all they have to do is get elected, and they can implement anything they want.

All I see is, eventually, that the free are going to have to stand physically against them.

34

I'm with Enigmaticore here.  Hey, if you're a part of the system, the government should dictate cost-saving behavior to you.  I'd like to see much more intervention in the lives of federal gravy train riders, actually.  Free housing?  Keep it clean, lawn mowed and maintained, etc, or get the hell out.  Free money for the first 5 years of your child's life?  You're being paid to parent...so do it, or lose custody.  Free pre-natal care (which is widely, yes, universally available already for poor women)?  Use it, or lose your right to collect on the free housing/free food/free parenting "salary" for those 5 years.

Hey, it's just a variant on the thing we tell our kids--our house, our rules.

Yeah, I do know Edwards and his ilk want to force ALL Americans (well, except for the top 0.5% that they inhabit) into socialized medicine, and I also know that would destroy the US medical system...all bad, obviously.  I'd just love to have somebody hit Edwards et al with the extension of logic that I run through above in a debate or candidate forum some time.

35

LOTSA great points being made here, including, Ah, here come the forced abortions because we don't want to have to pay for your disabled child.

I simply hate far left liberals.  Thatisall.

 

 

36 Personally, I'm gonna switch parties and vote for Edwards.

But first, I'm gonna start investing in all the HMOs, pharmas, med-equipment suppliers, and hospital scrub manufacturers who, under Edwards "no opt-out, mandatory-participation" healthcare plan, will grow like crazy on their mad, mad government-mandated income stream without having the burden of providing efficient service.

I gonna get rich off this. Filthy Rich.

37 azlibertarian: At least until Edwards decides you're a "profiteer" and confiscates your "windfall profits".

38

kempermanx--well, duh, Ms. Edwards is so important to America that she is worth the $1,000,000 tab, and of course that million should be spread around to everybody else.  It's we hoi polloi who mustn't strain the system with our foolish ways.

Hmmmm.  You know, I really doubt Mr. Edwards has thought this thing through very well.  If he drives most of us out of private insurance the cost of coverage would become pretty outrageous.  It's one reason why private insurance for those over 65, even those in perfect health, is crazy....the insured pool is very small.

39

azlib  I'd reconsider that plan.  Under socialized medicine the US pharma companies will crash since there is no incentive to take the huge financial risks to develop new drugs, which are what bring in the big return.  And scrubs will simply be used until they disintegrate....and perhaps even washed less frequently as a "cost saving" measure.  Oh, and washing and sterilizing all that other stuff?  Really costly, and bad for mother Gaia too.

40 You know, folks, with all of us on this wonderful new plan that will keep us slim, trim, smoke-free, non-pregnant, non-alcoholic, and drug-free, I see one bright spot in the whole thing.  And here it is:  Hollyweird bon vivants and politicians' kids, along with various fringe elements like Michael "I am the Walrus" Moore, will stand out even more than they do right now.  And since the rest of the population will be so bright-eyed and clear-headed from this chirpy healthiness, more people will finally see what the rest of us have been pointing out for years--these people are a waste of skin and contribute mightily to that dreaded Global Whining thing.

On the other hand, it's also possible that once they have flushed all the toxins out of our systems, we're going to get lined up and processed into the current version of Soylent Green.

41 I’m on the edge of my seat waiting to learn what the penalties for non-conformity will be.

RomneyCare™, as implemented in Massachusetts, imposes stiff fines until such time as you relent and join...or move and leave the state. You are not allowed to get your own health care outside the approved RomneyCare™ cocoon. Period.

Whatever Edwards has planned, would undoubtedly be much worse.

42

Oooops, I forgot forced sterilizations for us damn Catholics who choose to have more than 1 kid. 

Why, can you imagine how much it costs each time one of us wants have a kid and the burden that will put on our health care system?

 

43

It's a perfect plan from Edwards' perspective. He and his cohorts have sued large chunks of the medical profession into bankruptcy. His plan puts taxpayer money back into the void.

Hey, you over fish the pond? You got to restock it in order to fish it some more. Edwards just wants me and you to foot the bill for him.

John Edwards: Stalin, with better hair, Mao, with better teeth.

44 Hey!  PJmomma!  S'been awhile, how are ya?

As for Edwards, this is what the future under the Nanny State will be if we don't stop it NOW!  Its already starting, its always frivolous unpopular stuff like cigarettes, but it expands exponentially.

45

Hi Sinistar, I'm hittin' your site next. mwahahahaha!

 Its already starting, its always frivolous unpopular stuff like cigarettes, but it expands exponentially.

I'm gonna start smoking just to piss them off...............and have 10 more kids. hhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmph!

46 "Free housing?  Keep it clean, lawn mowed and maintained, etc, or get the hell out.  Free money for the first 5 years of your child's life?  You're being paid to parent...so do it, or lose custody.  Free pre-natal care (which is widely, yes, universally available already for poor women)?  Use it, or lose your right to collect on the free housing/free food/free parenting "salary" for those 5 years."

Right. With benefits come responsibilities. No responsibility, no benefits.

It's not the system I would choose, but the system we have (benefits with no responsibilities) is just insane.  

47

Purple Avenger--yes, which is why I shudder anytime somebody proposed Romney as a great conservative savior or something.

Romney is just another GW Bush, polished, packaged, religious, loves government programs, etc.

48

It's the logical conclusion to gov't healthcare. If they are paying for it (I know), then they can call the shots. That's the deal.

Exit question: do admissions like this help or hurt their efforts with the American people nowadays?

If the fact that one party runs on a platform explicitly saying they will raise taxes, well, I'm not sure anything they say can hurt them.   Especially with a pliant media willing to cover up for them.

49 Romney is a big government statist/totalitarian (not that the democrats aren't), but the democrats have apparently noticed this criminalization of non-participation and will be using it against Romney should he get the nomination. (see the last bullet point at that link).

Its heavy handed totalitarian shit like this that will queer the public to Romney when they find out about it.  Not much has been made of this in the press so far.  I suspect its because they're waiting for a choice moment to make a big deal out of it knowing the public's relatively short memory for such things.

Its this one point that queered me on Romney when I heard about it.  I simply will not vote for the man if he's nominated.  I hate to say it, but I would vote for Hillary over Romney.  With Hillary I know what I'm getting even if I don't like it.  With Romney I have no idea how far he would take this kind of shit.  If Edwards or Obama is the nominee running against Romney, then I stay home.

50 Edwards just handed Republicans the health care argument on a silver platter. That statement should be hung around Hillary's neck like a ball and chain for the entire general election.

51 You wanna know how bad Edwards' idea is?

Even the moonbats at democraticunderground hate it.

52 Stalin, with better hair, Mao, with better teeth.

I'd say Kim Jong Il, with even gayer hair.

53 Edward's mandatory check-ups are nothing more than a requirement for mass inspection -- a concept that went out with the advent of quality management as advocated by experts such as Dr. Deming. 

As a professional risk manager, I'd be amused at Edwards recurring nonsensical proposals if it wasn't for the seriousness many take them for. Increasingly, I'm wondering if Edwards is competent at anything more than shaking down corporate defendents in civil suits (a qualification unique to trial attorneys and organized crime thugs). I see that he's being advised by a Peter T. Harbage on healthcare - who runs a one-man-band consulting practice, advising Blue Shield of California and former Gov. Grey Davis.  I see he's also got some rather dirty businessmen who've left a lengthy trail of corporate and political disasters like Leo Hindery advising him on economics. Nothing like a bunch of corporate crooks and shifty attorneys to manage a campaign.

54 Come on, you fascist reichwingers, everyone knows the real reason you oppose John Edwards, Esq.'s plan to save our nation is because you want little brown babies to die. Think of the children!

55 You wanna know how bad Edwards' idea is?
Even the moonbats at democraticunderground hate it:

Look again; there are a couple of naysayers, but the vast majority are all for it, and their hostility toward the naysayers is remarkable.  They all seem more than willing to embrace Silky Pony's visionary next step toward the Brave New World they're pining for.

56

Edwards also mentioned that it will be necessary to appoint a Health Czar who will personally cup each and every American males' balls during the "cough test" of each physical examination.

He said he will assume this role himself.  Strangely, he seemed flushed and short of breath when making this statement.

57 Flushed, short of breath and wide-stanced, you mean.

58 "You wanna know how bad Edwards' idea is?

Even the moonbats at democraticunderground hate it."

You really wanna know how bad Edwards' idea is?

Cedarford likes it just fine.

Not sure which I like better, his statement that socialism works, or his saying that Edwards' Two Americas speech resonates because it is nearly totally true.

59 Frickin dumb non-html compliant thingymerdoodle.

60 He also seems to be saying that mental health checks would be mandatory under his plan. If Bush and Cheney were proposing mandatory yearly mental health examinations for the entire population, the Left's heads would all explode in unison. We'd be knee-deep in shattered skulls and little walnut-sized brains.

61

Against my better judgement, I went over and had a look around at the comments.

Here's my favorite: One thought: it's almost impossible to be serious about any policy issue without sometimes handing Republicans a potential talking point.

That ought to tell you something about the fundamental soundness of your policy positions if you have to carefully guard your speech in order to avoid making your opponent's arguments for them.

62

I have some news for this moron blog.

"Preventative medical care" will not reduce medical care expenditures. It will change the flow's direction (hmm, think levee) but not its volume (think flood).

Most of the "vaunted healthy lifestyle" being promoted by the health & fitness fanatics will not make a measurable difference to maximum life span (fixed at 120 years as long as we live in corporeal bodies made of chemicals) or life expectancy (statistical property of a population).

The things that matter most are trauma, infectious disease, sanitation, and nutrition. A moderate, varied, and nutrient balanced diet is good enough. We have made all of the gains in minimizing trauma and infectious disease that can be done economically.

If you want to reduce medical expenses, there are two ways to do it: 1) deregulation of the market and 2) kill people by denying care.

63 ""Preventative medical care" will not reduce medical care expenditures."

Actually, it would.

Now, if mandatory/coerced/government forced preventative medical care coupled with the costs associated with the governmental programs created to bring it to bear would cost less than the cost of medical care otherwise is very much an open question.

But, in general, we would be better off if everyone decided to start seeking preventative medical care. We would spend less overall on medical care, and people would remain productive longer. It would be a win-win for everyone.

64

Preventative care would have minimal affect because people use over 70% of their medical care expenses during the last 10% of their life.

Slightly more than half of Medicare dollars are spent on patients who die within two months.

What really would help fix the system is that if medical insurance worked more like car insurance.  Car insurance doesn't cover the routine oil change or tire rotation, those are out of pocket.  Health insurance should be used to cover the expensive stuff.

 

65 I'm 25.  The last time I was sick and had to visit the doctor, I asked him if I should be coming in for a checkup sometime.  He said that at my age and general state of health, every ten years or so would be often enough.

66 All kidding aside, I think we knew that Edwards was not a real contender.

The whole "ve vill ensuuuer ze healsy populashun vy vay off mandatory medical exahmnayshuns und mental heals profiles...." thing is just icing on the cake of this man's self-imposed irrelevancy.

Oh, and since I didn't notice anyone else explicitly saying it, anyone want to take any odds on how long under such a system it was before certain political or philosophical beliefs were categorized as "unhealthy?"

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