1

About the Gulf War thing...

I too, posed the question of whether or not someone who was serving in the military at the time the first Gulf War broke out would be called a Gulf War vet even if they were stationed stateside.  The answer I got from a real Gulf War vet is yes, they are considered one.  It's almost doesn't make sense, but his explanation was that if you were in the military during a conflict, you could call yourself a [insert conflict here] vet.

My question to him was whether or not that Air Force chick who posed in Playboy could call herself a Gulf War vet because she was stationed here in the US for the entire duration of the war.

I'm no vet, but that explanation doesn't satisfy me.  It's almost saying that someone could be a veteran or some other qualifier merely by association proxy. 

Now, someone claiming to be a Gulf War combat vet is entirely another matter completely.

2 this explains alot...latino takes it greek style and out comes an abomination like kos.

3 I don't believe that is accurate.  You may get a medal noting you served at the time of the Gulf War -- making you a Gulf War ERA vet -- but you're not a vet of a war unless, get this, you're actually a vet of the war.

4 Is Bamberg, Germany in Saudi Arabia? Kuwait? Iraq?

I just consulted with the famed world geography expert Scott Beauchamp on this.  The answer is yes.

5 You wingnuts just hate Kos because he's so much manlier than any of you.  In fact, he's so manly I want to pleasure him orally and swallow his semen.

6 (Shhhh.  The Skandis are infiltrating KOS, and those liberal asshats don't even know it.)

7 Having served in the military during Vietnam, but not having been "in-country", I would never be presumptuous enough to call myself Vietnam Vet, but I am a Vietnam Era Vet. If you were in the theater of operations, you are a war vet, otherwise, you are a war era vet.

8

Yeah, I realize what you're saying but I can't really challenge what my friend said.  He's no slouch either, he's a navy Master Chief whose been in for almost 20 years now.  I think he would know.

It just doesn't make sense to me either way.  If I served in the military, but in a domestic function like say...a mechanic in a motor pool or a payroll coordinator at the Pentagon, I would hesistate to call myself a Gulf War vet unless I was actually deployed to the theater of conflict.

That's my 2 cents.

9 EC,

Even if that is the correct hypertechnical interpretation, the common usage (outside of technical military designation) is that a war vet is someone who is a veteran of a *war.*

The Post's characterization of him is at best extremely misleading and at worst simply flat-out wrong.

10 Aw, lady bloggers, cry me a river. "They complain of being harassed online for their views on issues such as abortion rights."

I get "harassed" just for having an e-mail account as a man.

And by "harassed" I mean "receive e-mail indicating my 'package' might not be up to standard, and recommending pharmacological or physical tools to enhance this to a reasonable level".

If that isn't harassment, I don't know what is; and I'm not even a blogger.

11 He's no slouch either, he's a navy Master Chief whose been in for almost 20 years now.

That's some fast-tracking, right there. Something for Scott Beauchamp to aspire to.

Still, I dunno about the categrorization. For such things as Gulf War I, serving military (and reservists) get the National Defense Ribbon. But for in-theater, and thus, "war vets," you must have the campaign ribbon.

The military DOES make distinctions. But I don't remember the Navy taking me in "as a Republican."

Not likely Moulitsos was, either.

Cordially...

12

As much as I think Kos is a total douche, I'd ascribe this to the reporter - probably "punching up" the bio by ommitting the pesky "era".  You know reporters, when they don't know what a word means, they just drop it in the interests of "clarity".  Kos is smart enough to avoid the backlash from false claims of service.

13 The question is "were or were you not in the shit, man?"

14 Harassed, huh?  Has that word been as bleached of meaning as torture, which now apparently means 'use mean words and withhold dessert until subject abjectly cries'?

I'm wondering of anyone who questions their assumptions and calls BS on their facts gets counted as 'harassing' them.

Oh, the horror.

15

Ace,

I understand.  I think most of us commonfolk have no idea about the distinction of a war era vet and an actual war vet who was deployed and has the ribbons to prove it.  Making Kos out to be a real Gulf War vet is misleading.

16 That's correct, Ace.  There were 3 medals I received for Desert Shield/Desert Storm...there's the Soutwest Asian Service Medal (with star devices for multiple campaigns), the Kuwaiti Liberation Medal, and one other one (I'd need to check my DD-214 to see what it is, I honestly don't remember...and that's safely stowed on the other side of town in a safe deposit box). 

I pretty sure one of them was able to be received by folks who never stepped foot in-theater, but served during the conflict.

(I just looked at my Class As in the closet, and the one I couldn't remember is the Saudi version of the Kuwaiti Liberation Medal, and the one I knew was the Kuwaiti version.  They're described on Wikipedia if you're interested).  Just as an aside, they KLMs are pretty low in the Order of Precedence, displayed just above the "I joined the Army Medal".

If he was in-theater, though, he'd have the SWASM.

17 Ok, I'm a veteran of OIF and am currently out of the Army.  If I were to accurately right a bio for myself I could never claim that I was stationed in Iraq.  My duty station was Ft. Hood while I was temporarily assigned to Iraq.  So I could leave out the whole Iraq part and still be properly described as an OIF veteran.

But the line about serving out his remainder of his contract in Germany lends itself to him not participating in the conflict.  If I were using my military background to lend credence to any of my arguments speaking out against armed conflicts I would mention that I had been in theater.

But since only major douchebag assholes would do something that stupid, I wouldn't do it except to defeat the "chickenhawk" non sequitor.

18 That's correct, Ace.  There were 3 medals I received for Desert Shield/Desert Storm...there's the Soutwest Asian Service Medal (with star devices for multiple campaigns), the Kuwaiti Liberation Medal, and one other one (I'd need to check my DD-214 to see what it is, I honestly don't remember...and that's safely stowed on the other side of town in a safe deposit box). 

I pretty sure one of them was able to be received by folks who never stepped foot in-theater, but served during the conflict.

The third one you received was probably the National Defense Ribbon.  For setting foot in Iraq today, service people receive NDR, GWOT medal and GWOT Expeditionary medal.  Everyone who doesn't go just gets the NDR.

19 I have that 3rd ribbon to which you refer, Oedipus.  Can't recall what it was called it officially, we just called it the "thanks for Being There" medal

20 The National Defense Ribbon was the third that was given to all Active Duty military during the first Gulf War. It is lovingly referred to as the gee-dunk medal, because everyone got it, and it was basically worthless towards advancement.

21 As others have noted, all who were active duty during the Gulf War received the National Defense  Service Medal.  I have one (AF) and I was stationed in Germany the whole time.

22 OK, so they're all white. All this proves is that even in the kingdom of the fucked up the fucked up whites rule.

23

American Legion - Yes

VFW - No

24 What gabriel said.

25

#18

The third one you received was probably the National Defense Ribbon.  For setting foot in Iraq today, service people receive NDR, GWOT medal and GWOT Expeditionary medal.  Everyone who doesn't go just gets the NDR.

Actually, things are a bit different, now:

NDSM:  Yes, this one everybody gets pretty much for existing in the military during a confilict.

GWOT:  There are two of these:  GWOT service and GWOT expeditionary.  You won't get both for the same time period.  GWOT-S is mainly supporting GWOT in a non-AOR (I.E.  the US).  GWOT-E is for when you actually go into theater.  However, GWOT-E doesn't get used much anymore because Iraq and Afghanistan have their own campaign medals, now.  People have the option to change their GWOT-E to Iraq/Afghanistan if their records can back it up. 

Those are pretty much universal.  The services will also have their own items (I.E. combat action badge/ribbon) to prove somebody was "in the shit". 

 

 

 

26

So by the WaPo's definition of a war vet, doesn't that make GWB a Vietnam Vet? I think we should accept their definition of a war vet, conceed their point that Kos is a Gulf War Vet, and force them to conceed that GWB is a Vietnam Vet.

Wouldn't that just be a slap in the face to all those ink stained, tree killing, newspaper writing, BDSers?!?!

27

  I'm no big fan of Kos but I don't think what the WaPo classified him as is wrong, and I think some might be too upped on Beauchamps huntin' for making this a bigger deal than it is.  I've got that "you got a pulse, here's a medal" ribbon too, as well as an additional one that qualified me for the VFW - I think I'm technically a "Gulf War vet" as well (no more, or less, than Kos is) since it is the same time frame even though medal worthy action(s) occured in the next ocean over.  He's a veteran; don't knock him because what an infallible reporter writes.

28

T Ferg,

that is an excellent point!

29 He's a gulf war vet because he served during the time of the gulf war. You don't have to actually be in the conflict to qualify: my father served in the Air Force in Denver Colorado during the Korean war and was considered a Korean War vet. The reason is because the military fights as a whole, not as portions: the work done in Germany helps the guys on the ground in Iraq, for instance.

Granted, the way she says it is a bit misleading and deliberately so, but it is technically true.

30 It's like that famous Viet Nam Veteran Against the War Ward Reilly, who claims the cred for keeping Charlie out of Stuttgart during Tet, but backs down to Viet Nam ERA vet when challenged...

31 However, GWOT-E doesn't get used much anymore because Iraq and Afghanistan have their own campaign medals, now.  People have the option to change their GWOT-E to Iraq/Afghanistan if their records can back it up.

Thanks for the update.  When I was there Iraq didn't have its own campaign medal.

32 former republican is right that technically your unit is stationed in one place (e.g. Bamberg) but you are deployed for combat.  So Kos could still be an "in theater"   vet of Gulf War I.  It's not out of the question.

I am an OIF vet, but my unit was in Boston, MA at the time.  I would not have referred to my unit as "stationed in Iraq."

fr is also right in pointing out that if he was in theater he would have made a point of it seeing as how his uses his absolute moral authoriteh as a cudgel.

But, with apologies to you redlegs out there, being an FDO for an MLRS battery puts you so far behind the lines that you might as well be a civilian. 

Kos may have heard the dogs of war bark, but it was far, far over the horizon. 

33

I saw Kos in another interview say nothing when the interviewer called him a Gulf War vet. When called on it, he's said he missed deploying "by a hair." Here's from an interview he did with Howard Kurtz:

"In part, here's how Kos responded to Kurtz. Video is at Expose the Left.

KOS: ... [I]n a way it’s funny that they have not updated their talking points in two years. And so they want to keep resurrecting an old quote. There’s nothing I can do about it. What I can do is I can say the fact is the reason, the context for that quote, was solidarity with my brothers and sisters in arms, Marines and soldiers. I wore combat boots. I served during the first Gulf war. And people are making a choice between private armies and mercenaries. I make my choice. I stand behind our men and women in uniform, and I’m not going to apologize for that. But they’re going to keep resurrecting that, and that’s fine. That’s what they do ..."

34 my father served in the Air Force in Denver Colorado during the Korean war and was considered a Korean War vet. The reason is because the military fights as a whole, not as portions: the work done in Germany helps the guys on the ground in Iraq, for instance.

With that kind of attitude, no wonder other branches refer to it as the Chair Force.  I disagree with your premise.  If a pilot flies in supplies from Germany to Kuwait, only to allow another pilot to fly from Kuwait into Iraq for the final delivery, the first pilot shouldn't be considered for any other accolades associated with the war except for the one everyone gets.

There is no way Kos as a MLRS operator could have contributed anything to the war effort in the Persian Gulf from Bamberg, Germany.

35 And yes, president Bush is a vietnam vet. Just not one that served in country.

36 I wish there was a way to edit posts Way up I wrote right  write a bio. 

37 I agree that people who did not serve directly in combat should get the same accolades as those who did... but I do not think that the guys who get supplies to soldiers in combat, work in the hospitals that keep them alive, work on the intelligence they use to fight, and so on should be any less considered part of the war effort.

To do so would be to smear every single soldier on earth except the guys who happen to be in combat, and that's repellant. They also serve, a point General Patton made very, very clear in his speech to the third army (Patton's language is typically earthy):

All real heroes are not story book combat fighters either. Every man in the army plays a vital part. Every little job is essential. Don't ever let down, thinking your role is unimportant. Every man has a job to do. Every man is a link in the great chain. What if every truck driver decided that he didn't like the whine of the shells overhead, turned yellow and jumped headlong into the ditch? He could say to himself, "They won't miss me -- just one in thousands." What if every man said that? Where in hell would we be now? No, thank God, Americans don't say that! Every man does his job; every man serves the whole. Every department, every unit, is important to the vast scheme of things. The Ordnance men are needed to supply the guns, the Quartermaster to bring up the food and clothes to us -- for where we're going there isn't a hell of a lot to steal. Every last man in the mess hall, even the one who heats the water to keep us from getting the GI shits has a job to do. Even the chaplain is important, for if we get killed and if he is not there to bury us we'd all go to hell.

Each man must not only think of himself, but of his buddy fighting beside him. We don't want yellow cowards in this army. They should all be killed off like flies. If not they will go back home after the war and breed more cowards. The brave men will breed brave men. Kill off the goddamn cowards and we'll have a nation of brave men.

One of the bravest men I ever saw in the African campaign was the fellow I saw on top of a telegraph pole in the midst of furious fire while we were plowing toward Tunis. I stopped and asked what the hell he was doing up there at that time. He answered, "Fixing the wire, sir." "Isn't it a little unhealthy right now?," I asked. "Yes sir, but this goddamn wire's got to be fixed." There was a real soldier. There was a man who devoted all he had to his duty, no matter how great the odds, no matter how seemingly insignificant his duty might appear at the time.

You should have seen those trucks on the road to Gabes. The drivers were magnificent. All day and all night they rolled over those son-of-a-bitching roads, never stopping, never faltering from their course, with shells bursting around them all the time. We got through on good old American guts. Many of these men drove over forty consecutive hours. These weren't combat men. But they were soldiers with a job to do. They did it -- and in a whale of a way they did it. They were part of a team. Without them the fight would have been lost. All the links in the chain pulled together and that chain became unbreakable.

38

Post Issues Correction:

In earlier versions of this story, including the print edition of today's Washington Post, the name of Bernita Smith, a blogger from Atlanta, was misspelled as Bernina Smith.

That should satisfy you people.

39 We got both kinds of opinions: Communist and Socialist.

40

I wore combat boots. I served during the first Gulf war.

In Germany.

41 Interesting anecdotal and semantic distinctions here, kind of like over whether the realistic Sgt. booted from YKos was truly in violation of the UCMJ.

My opinion: I got the National Defense Medal (ribbon) for the Gulf War I period--just missing it for Vietnam by a couple of months--and never, ever (not even now, after reading the comments above) would consider describing myself as a Gulf War vet. That's just non-sense.

Cordially...

42 It is possible that what has been suggested here is correct.  During the Gulf War, the entrie VII Corps deployed from Germany to the theater and fought.  Technically, they were stationed in Germany and on temporary duty in theater.  However, it is also possible that he could claim the status based on the rules in place at the time.  There were people in Germany (and other places outside the KTO) that were classified as having served in the war because their functions were specifically in support of the war effort.

43 Okay, looking at the NDSM on Wikipedia, I realize now that I got 4 ribbons.  1 was retroactive, awarded to me after I got out (a buddy who stayed in got ahold of one for me and gave it to me, but I couldn't remember which one).  It was one of the Kuwaiti Liberation Medals, either Kuwait or Saudi Arabia.

The crappy thing is that the NDSM is higher in precedence than the ones awarded for actually being in-theater, but I guess that's because they're foreign medals?

Oh well, it's not like I'm ever gonna wear that thing again (especially not in the condition it's in right now, hehe)...well, unless I want to start up a blog and use it for my bio page to Pimp My Creds or something.

I was such a stupid ass that I think I've even thrown away all my MEDALS, not knowing that you could only buy the ribbons as replacements (I was a poor enlisted guy, who was never going to pony up the dough for a set of dress blues, so why did I need them?)

Woulda been cool to make a shadowbox, though.

44

Well, I served in the missile fields of Montana during GW1, and in no way do I consider myself a veteran of that conflict.  I believe I was doing an important job in the defense of my country, keeping birds on alert during what was still the Cold War, but that important job would not be considered serving in GW1.  There were guys from our base that did deploy to Saudi, and I consider them veterans of GW1.

Kos was doing an important job too; it just shouldn't be considered serving in GW1.

45

Markos gave an interview in 2004 that summarizes his then-actual thoughts.  The link is here:  http://www.bu.edu/alumni/bostonia/2004/fall/partisan/

The relevant passage

After graduating from high school, [Kos] joined the U.S. Army to pay for college. He served in the artillery from 1989 to 1992 and narrowly missed being sent to the Middle East during the first Gulf War.

“My unit didn’t deploy because the war ended so quickly,” Moulitsas says. “But there is a kind of introspection and self-examination that knowing that you’re about to head out to war forces on you. Our vehicles were in the Gulf; we were ready to go. That forms a basis of a lot of my antiwar views, the fact that I was in a position of potentially heading to war.”

{emphasis and color added}

-----------------------------

Joining the military as a way to pay for college is, well, one of the reasons people join and serve their country in uniform.    It's a good one, too.

Joining the military, learning how to fire Multiple Rocket Launchers, having one of those BoomWar things happen, and then realizing  'HEY, WHOA!!! I'm in a Position of Potentially Heading to War!' makes Markos seem a bit ... slow.

Dense even.

-

ps.  I'm a vet

46 I think the reason people say "during" or "era" is to point out the fact they were in the armed forces during a period in which they could have seen active combat, versus a period in which there were no hostilities.  They don't choose their deployment.  Still, it is different from being actually deployed to a war zone, which is what Kos has been trying to imply - he's a dishonest SOB.

47 QED, bumperstickerist.

Kos would thus be better described as a "Gulf War Era" vet.

Good luck with getting him to make that change on his bio though.  He likes the ambiguity, sorta makes him look like a hero to those Kossacks who prefer to spit on the uniform (rhetorically or otherwise).

Yes, the Mighty Kos, Lion of the Hofbrau!

48 They should have said "gulf era."

49 I was in Jr. High during Desert Shield so I need someone, preferably Army,from that era to answer a question for me. 

When I joined, everyone got a chance to chose their MOS. Assuming you met the qualifications for that job, and slots were available, you got what you wanted.  If that wasn't available, then you got to chose another one.  All of this is done before the contract signing.  The only way the Army can change your contract afterwards is if you lied to them about something that would show up on a Security Clearance review, or if you weren't smart enough to cut it at your particular AIT (tech school).

Was this the way it was during that time period?  If so that means Kos could only get that job under a few different circumstances.

1)  He was a peacenik going in, was smart enough to qualify for other jobs, but none were available.

2) He was a peacenik going in, qualified for a different job, but got in trouble with a Sec Cler and got reassigned to MLRS

3) He was a peacenik going in, qualified for a different job, but flunked out and got reassigned.

4) He was a peacenik going in, qualified for a different job, but 13P had a nice bonus.  The Berlin wall was falling, go for the money, bro.

5) He was neither a peacenik or hawkish, but ambivalent.  But, once the possibility that he might actually have to do the job he signed up for he turned into an anti-war coward.

50 I wouldn't go that far, fr.  First of all, 13Ps aren't knuckle draggers.  They have to have a decent GT score to get that MOS, I'd bet they have to have above a 100 GT score.  So there goes point #3.

People take MOSs for all sorts of different reasons (I was a recruiter for a thankfully brief period) and you really can't impugn their motives for taking what they take in the Great MOS Chase.  I've had meek guys sign up to be 11B infantrymen and I had studly, sqaure-jawed types sign up to be Laundry and Bath specialists.  You never can tell.

And at the time I believe you needed at least a Secret to get onto an MLRS crew.  Not so for 155 SP crews.  So your second point doesn't cut much ice here.

My money is on 4 or 5.  But hey...who really knows?  It doesn't really matter.  All I know now is he's a tool.

Strike that.  He's not a tool.  He's a tool box.

51 Absolutely, gulf war era vet is a better and more specific title and she was being deliberately misleading by not being more specific.

52 Thanks Sean,

I was a 31F (changed to 25F, changed to something else now.  Guess some officer is bored at the Pentagon or something) so I almost have a knee jerk reaction to seeing a 1x series as not requiring much intelligence.  I can't imagine ever going through recruiter hell.  Screw that.

53 Sean Bannion,

I don't like Markos either, but go to hell.  I know several 13Ms who were KIA in Iraq.  MLRS even in Desert Storm often went right up to the FLOT.  They have a good range, but sometimes they actually have to use all of it could counter artillery fire and that means they are in the thick of it.  I know a guy whose M270 was damages by a T-72 in Desert Storm.

There is no reason to diminish any soldier, least of all a combat solider who leaves an enormous trail of smoke and light right back to his head that you can see five miles away whenever they fire.  Even heard of snipers?  Today, MLRS batteries are crucial for precise strikes in urban combat.  For decent coverage, they have to be RIGHT THERE in combat.  They are high value targets for the enemy, and have always been.  When MLRS doesn't get its job done in time, US Soldiers die.  When we invaded Iraq in 2003 and that sandstorm stopped teh airforce and navy, it was MLRS that won the war - with the same accuracy and speed as under a blue sky.  That wasn't easy for them, but because some liberal was involved with this field you're going to claim it's "practically civilian"?

I should note that I personally have never been in a war.  But I respect those who have, even if they are liberal (granting that Markos did not go to a war).

54 FR, they do in fact still need Secret (and rarely TS).  They require a 110GT score.  It's not easy generally, it's certainly not peacenik (amnesty international considers cluster bombs a war-crime).

Markos did his duty by serving, and I respect that.  I don't like the guy, and he stands for awful shit now, but it's so lame to diminish his contribution.  Even if he joined to get some help with college, he found a positive and challenging way to better himself.  Some liberals love this country, and I think Markos probably, in his own twisted and idiotic way, also loves his country.

Also, few jobs in this world require the kind of quick thinking 11B does.  They take anybody, but to succeed, you have to be a hell of a lot smarter than those clowns int he pentagon.

55 Diminishing motives doesn't equal diminishing service. All I stated before was pure speculation on the motives of an individual. I am glad my perception regarding the requirements of all combat arms series was shattered. 

It may not be apparent to all, but not all soldiers/sailors/airmen or marines are equal.  And here is where I will go into diminishing his service.  By allowing the MSM to misrepresent his service, not correcting this error, and using his service to lend credence to his political views (which, he makes money off of) tells me all I need to know about this character.

There is no moral or ethical switch that turns on/off by entering or leaving the service.  You either have the character to serve or you don't.  Kos, until he corrects the errors, is displaying that he is morally bankrupt.

56 no wonder other branches refer to it as the Chair Force.

We take it in stride; brotherly love, you know.

57

"A panel called "Blogging While Female,"

 

Even the names of their crappy workshops are annoying.  It makes a man want to walk around punching strangers in the face.

58 "A panel called "Blogging While Female,"

Starring Bridget Fonda.

59 I deployed to Desert Storm with the 2d Sqdn, 2d ACR which was located next door to the MLRS battery at Bamberg.  To the best of my recollection that MLRS unit deployed about the same time we did and fired missions for us.  So he could have been there.  But since there is no record of him serving in SWA he may have been rear detachment and stayed in Bamberg.  His DD214 should show any combat tours he had.

60 So, according to Makos, this apparently means George W Bush is a Vietnam war veteran.

61 Kos has lied about so many things that I had to start "The Truth About Kos Blog" to have a place to list all of lies as I find them.

Kos calls himself a "progressive."  Did you know that he wrote a published essay in which he opposed President Clinton's efforts to let gays serve openly in the military? 

"Those who have served in the military, such as myself, understand the demands and pressures of military life are incompatible with allowing integration with homosexuals."

Kos says he's an immigrant from a poor family.  Did you know his family owns one of the most exclusive beach resorts in El Salvador?
Why Has Markos Alberto Moulitsas Zúñiga (M.A.M.Z.) Lied About His Wealthy Salvadoran Oligarchy Family Background?

 

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