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Why I Hate Libertarians: The Continuing Saga

Retired Geezer sends this link to Clayton Cramer's blog, linking infuriating comments by libertarians on Volokh's site.

A pedophile in LA posts photos of children, and discusses what he'd like to do with various children. It is, apparently, legal, as he is not proven to have actually touched or made contact with a child. It has of course sparked outrage by concerned parents and stick-in-the-mud conservatives, of course, prompting libertarian douchebags to defend the guy with all their bluster:

We libertarians need to start hoisting the fascists by their own petards. A pedophile is, like Lewis Carol, a person who likes kids. If parents don't like the idea that others like their kids, they can stop having the damn kids! I think it great what the guy is doing and am considering taking photos of all kinds of kids. If the parents don't want photos, they can keep the kids indoors with their declawed cats.

In the meantime, we who are subsidizing their breeding have rights, whether the like it or not. It will be a cold day in hell that I give up the right to photograph, converse with and relate to ANY kid I meet in public.

(There's actually an arguably worse sentiment expressed at Cramer's blog, too.)

I hate libertarians for the same reason I hate Madonna. For one thing, I despise their juvenile pose of calculated outrageousness. Every kid knows that someone's poking you, it's not the actual poking that's the most objectionable. The poking itself is relatively mild. What is infuriating is the poker's demand for attention, his insistence upon your acknowledgment of his breaking of social barriers, his demand you bend in a small way to will by having to deal with his provocations when you'd much rather be left alone. This is what makes Madonna's various crucifix poses annoying to me -- not so much that she's doing it but that, by doing it, she's aggressively hijacking my attention so that I wind up talking about something simply not worth talking about, e.g., Madonna.

And so it is with libertarians. While many of the older, wiser, more mature libertarians don't have this childish need to call attention to themselves via their predictably unpredictable pronouncements and expectedly unexpected assertions, many of the younger ones do and, worse yet, a lot of the older ones continue on with this assholery well into their dotage. Stupidity is more forgivable in the youthfully stupid, guys.

Although it's true that libertarians do share some policy goals with conservatives, they do so, by and large, for bad reasons, or, to put it more neutrally, for reasons that conservatives reject. Libertarians share with Marxists an utter contempt which what are frequently called the sensibilities and habits of the bourgeoisie, and, like Marxists, view these sensibilities and habits to be a large impediment to the creation of a good society. They must be mocked and undermined at all turns if the libertarian project is ever to succeed-- all this regard for children and families and basic moral restraint is just illogical and must be subverted for the good of the world.

And like Marxists, of course, they tend to view themselves as part of an enlightened Vanguard which is destined to lead the rabble while of course not being of the rabble.

While they arrive, on some issues, at the same place, libertarians get there by a very different path, and it's little wonder they disagree so strongly with conservatives on all but a few issues. Their entire philosophy and worldview is predicated on a set of assumptions more common among leftists and actual Marxists than conservatives.

We saw a bit of this in the immigration debate: Libertarians largely believed the idea that American citizens should have some sort of competitive advantage in the workplace over non-American illegal immigrants to be largely illogical, an indefensible sentimentalist preference for Americans over non-Americans, and, of course, probably racist to boot. After all, who says Americans should have an advantage over non-Americans in the job market, apart from silly illogical ideas of patriotism and petty tribalism? A very bourgeoisie notion -- actually, perhaps a bit worse than that; a very blue-collar/white trash/redneck sort of sentiment -- and hence scornfully dismissed as nativism and jingoism.

I grow weary of the libertarians' look-at-me acting-up. Too many make jackass pronouncements which drip with calculated "outrageousness" and a dangerously high level of self-besmittenness. Many make "jokes," but the jokes are usually not funny, but merely flippant. Flip can be funny, but it certainly doesn't have to be. Attitude alone is not humor. But of course actually being funny -- the pandering desire to please others by making them laugh -- isn't really the point. They're not trying to please anyone, after all. They're just trying to annoy. If they're trying for laughs at all, they're largely looking for laughs from like-minded libertarians getting a giddy little thrill over all those stick-in-the-mud bourgeios-types who undoubtedly are outraged by their outrageousness. Or at least would be, if they'd bothered to read the remark at all.

And not to be a dick here, but this tendency is not merely political; it's a psychological tic as well. Sit down at a table with a bunch of strangers, whose exact boundaries for vulgarity and taste are unknown to everyone else, and if you hear someone down the table loudly expounding on, say, the various gauges and colors that anal plugs are now available in, chances are, you just discovered yourself a libertarian, now on stage and performing for the thousandth time his one-man Hipper Than Thou performance art to decidedly mixed reviews. Shock the straights, baby. Let your freak-flag fly. Make sure that no one in the table (or, for that matter, in the whole of the restaurant) is under any misapprehension that you buy into any of this fuddy-duddy bourgeois social conservatism.

Can this marriage be saved? I doubt it. Quite frankly it was a marriage of convenience from the get-go and having been in it for far too long I find my mind drifting to happy "accidents" that might befall my condescending, self-centered, juvenile, embarrassing spouse, so that I might yet be free to date again.

Or maybe just to play chess, left to my own thoughts, like Hal Holbrook in Creepshow. Anyone know of a mysterious and dangerous crate of some kind discovered in the sub-basement of the university library?

And Yet I'm Frequently Called a Libertarian. I can see why -- I curse, I use a lot of sexual or playground humor, and I'm moderate(ish) on social issues. I lean conservative on most of them, but they don't particularly animate me.

It sort of proves my point that all it takes to get characterized as "libertarian" is to engage in juvenile potty humor.

Then again, I'm a vulgarian not to shock or outrage readers, but to pander to them (and I use the word "pander' in its most neutral sense -- to please, to amuse). It's sort of like the difference between Norm McDonald and David Cross. Both are funny, both take delight in vulgarity, but McDonald does so out of puckish desire to amuse. Cross does that too, but he's also trying to be outrageous for the sake of outrageousness; his audience appreciates him partly because they're imagining all those stick-in-the-mud conservatives who would be greatly upset -- outraged, in fact -- if they heard his act, which of course they usually don't.

McDonald just says "cock" a lot because it makes people giggle. Which is why I do, too.

Posted by: Ace at 02:30 PM



Comments

1 Oh man...I soooooooooooo want to meet this person.

Posted by: EC at July 30, 2007 02:32 PM (mAhn3)

2 I didn't even go to the link, and I am creeped out.

Posted by: CUS at July 30, 2007 02:36 PM (bbXZq)

3

 "

 It will be a cold day in hell that I give up the right to photograph, converse with and relate to ANY kid I meet in public"

be my guest, i will not only personally assure that you get your rights, i will provide you with your lefts as well

Posted by: charles at July 30, 2007 02:37 PM (mgp7a)

4 Where's your post on the nutroots too?

Posted by: Kaitain at July 30, 2007 02:38 PM (4ep6C)

5

>>In the meantime, we who are subsidizing their breeding

WTF? How is this fcuker subsidizing other people's children? Don't other people pay taxes? Is he the only fcuking taxpayer in the country?

Posted by: Tushar D at July 30, 2007 02:38 PM (IlgNp)

6 I gots me $50 that says if one of you finds this guy and starts snapping photos of him in public and putting them on your webpage alongside commentary of your choosing, he will flip the fuck out and try to sue you.

Posted by: Entropy at July 30, 2007 02:39 PM (m6c4H)

7 Have I mentioned the whole, we need to bring back dueling thing lately? People would be lining up for miles at this pedophiles house and this douche libertarians as well.

However in fairness to libertarians however, just because someone posts on a blog that they are one doesn't mean they are one. 

Posted by: Drew at July 30, 2007 02:39 PM (hlYel)

8 that's not a libertarian, that's a pederast.


And the discussing what he'd like to do with a specific child almost certainly can be actionable.  In fact, physical violence by the parent might well be justified as defense of the child, and I'd wager a jury would buy that defense, once they see the website.  Given tht the defense is a key to the case, I can't see a motion to exclude the website succeeding.

But then again, I'm not a criminal lawyer, just objectively pro-vigilante

Posted by: malphonse at July 30, 2007 02:41 PM (p1s9n)

9

Yes, Drew, but these douches would not accept the duels, and it has to be consentual else it's just murder.

But still....yes. Dueling. Good. Do it.

Posted by: Entropy at July 30, 2007 02:41 PM (m6c4H)

10 EC: I think Chris Hansen is going to meet this guy first.  I hope so, at least.

Posted by: John F at July 30, 2007 02:45 PM (w7LjB)

11

And before anyone gets the wrong idea about me, here's a story.....

 

I'm walking with my family along a busy downtown street back in my hometown during a visit back home.  Some guy about 25-30 years suddenly stops in front of my 4 year old and bends down and starts talking with him.  He wasn't saying "oh excuse me little fella, I didn't see you there", he was talking more along the lines of "hi, what's your name?  what kind of things do you like to do?  where are you going?"

I'm standing right there behind my kid and this jagoff is going on like he and my son are the only ones on the street, and it's not a typical conversation an adult would be having with a stranger's kid.  If fact, it was a little on the creepy side and I immediately got bad vibes from this guy. 

I picked up my son and walked away.  The guy may have been completely innocent, but something about him and the way he was conversing with my son lit up all the warning signs in my mind.  If I had let him "talk" to my son a few more minutes, I had a feeling that I would've gone Beauchamp on his ass.

"I'm a Bradley and you're a dog, motherfucker!"

 

Posted by: EC at July 30, 2007 02:45 PM (mAhn3)

12 Speaking of douchebags at Volokh, have you seen the comments to the "Seligmann goes to Brown" story?

Some shitheads there still haven't noticed that *he* was the victim.

Of course, one of the commenters did note the humor of this story:

"Why would the kid go from one hyper-pinko institution to another? It makes no sense. Next year we'll be hearing some story from a new victim, probably an overweight black lesbian, claiming that he 'touched her' or 'verbally molested her' or whatever. 'Cause, ya' know, all white jocks who have successful parents are little eichmans...bla bla...so what's wrong with framing a "guilty" guy?"

Posted by: someone at July 30, 2007 02:47 PM (eCH82)

13 Clayton's post is getting bumped down, scroll down to July 29th to see it.

Seem to be unable to link directly to the post.

Posted by: Retired Geezer at July 30, 2007 02:48 PM (6B8K9)

14

In the meantime, we who are subsidizing their breeding have rights, whether the like it or not. It will be a cold day in hell that I give up the right to photograph, converse with and relate to ANY kid I meet in public.

And I, as a parent, have the right to kick your sorry ass if you give me the slightest impression you are a threat to my child.  I'll take my chances in court and I bet I win.

Posted by: NSC at July 30, 2007 02:51 PM (oXi5C)

15 Yes, Drew, but these douches would not accept the duels, and it has to be consentual else it's just murder.

That's why you should carry a stunt pistol like the Chicago cops used to do.

Posted by: CUS at July 30, 2007 02:53 PM (bbXZq)

16

In the meantime, we who are subsidizing their breeding have rights, whether the like it or not.

Huh?

Where do these people get these stupid ideas. I have no children, and I guarantee you I pay double, if not triple, what he pays in federal income taxes.

And such thoughts never pass through my mind.

It will be a cold day in hell that I give up the right to photograph, converse with and relate to ANY kid I meet in public.

And someone like me, likely with a .45 carry on my person, will be there to "relate" to you, sicko.

Posted by: Jay at July 30, 2007 02:56 PM (VZ0Yh)

17

This can't be real. The only thing we have left in this society that we ALL (the liberals included) agree upon, is the absolute sickeness of a pedophile.

That and rape. That's it. I can't imagine this guy is serious.  

Posted by: Rightwingsparkle at July 30, 2007 02:58 PM (t6KZi)

18 I can't stand Libertarians because I used to go to Libertarian Party meetings when I was in high school.  Even got Jon Coon, the Soupy Sails of Michigan House of Reps. elections, to come speak to the political science class I took in high school.

Funny, how Randians, Marxians, and Treehuggerians all show up at a meeting where they're selling the Turner Diaries and handing out conspiracy 'zines that make the Twoofers look like amateurs.

Posted by: ampdead at July 30, 2007 03:05 PM (vLSMG)

19

It will be a cold day in hell that I give up the right to photograph, converse with and relate to ANY kid I meet in public.

Turnabout being fair play, I will keep my right to take your picture while your talking to my kid, add the caption:  "FYI:  This man claims the right to photograph, converse with and relate to ANY kid he meets in public."

Have 500 copies made at Staples for $30- and post them around the mall, playground, et cetera.

If I'm guilty of anything, it's of helping you understand what Libertarianism is all about.

Posted by: BumperStickerist at July 30, 2007 03:07 PM (wieXQ)

20

Social access to other people's children is not a right.

EC, usually it's women or sometimes grandpas who notice cute kids and make remarks to the parent or a little silly chitchat with the baby.

I'd be very suspicious of any 25-yr old guy exhibiting intense social interest in a child he doesn't know.

Posted by: lauraw at July 30, 2007 03:12 PM (O93UP)

21 Just because you can do something does not mean you should do something.

Posted by: Denny at July 30, 2007 03:12 PM (JWgkE)

22

BumperStickerist,

that is a good turnabout. It will make life hell for the retard, more so if he lives in a small community. Courtesy copies can ofcourse be sent to his employer/business associates/co-workers/clients.

Posted by: Tushar D at July 30, 2007 03:14 PM (IlgNp)

23 I HATE Libertarians! You know, you'll just be sitting there minding your own business and they'll come marching in and crawl up your leg and start biting the inside of your ass and you'll be all like EH! get out of my ass you stupid Libertarians!

Posted by: krakaCartman at July 30, 2007 03:16 PM (n+ZaI)

24 R. Fiore once described libertarians as "an Iowa Republican who's thinking of taking up sodomy."  This guy sounds like he's ahead of the curve.

Posted by: richard mcenroe at July 30, 2007 03:17 PM (bYCy8)

25 heh. That R. Fiore sounds like a fun guy.

Posted by: krakatoa at July 30, 2007 03:18 PM (n+ZaI)

26 "Courtesy copies can ofcourse be sent to his employer/business associates/co-workers/clients."

I'm no tort lawyer, but that might land you in court.  People obsessed with their "rights" seem more likely litigious.

Posted by: someone at July 30, 2007 03:19 PM (eCH82)

27

This can't be real. The only thing we have left in this society that we ALL (the liberals included) agree upon, is the absolute sickeness of a pedophile.

The average democrat shmuck, or the moonbat liberals who lead the party? The moonbat liberals? The hell they do.

They're totally supportive of pedophilia, they just can't admit it. Yet.

But they'll get there, if they're allowed to. Beleive it. Slowly and surely, like boiling a toad, everything drifts toward Brave New World social marxism.

Posted by: Entropy at July 30, 2007 03:21 PM (m6c4H)

28

Great post.  So I guess I'm not the only one who finds them really pretentious and holier-than-thou?

Posted by: Mark at July 30, 2007 03:21 PM (2MrBP)

29 Ace,
I was involved in the Libertarian Party of Nevada for a while and attended UNLV, probably one of the few schools with a heavy libertarian economics/business department, at least back in the 90s. I agree with a lot of what you say. Many libertarians have a very immature streak in them, a very unserious approach to politics, and a strong desire to be the other.  I am no longer involved in the party but still vote L if I can. What I can't stand is the fucking fetish libertarians, like the polygamists, and the pot guys, and the fucking free love/polyfuckingsexuality bullshit that the party attracts.

There are a lot of serious libertarians but the party is way too much of a freak magnet to ever be a serious contendah on the national level.

I gave the R party a chance because they are closer to the L than the D so they were worth a shot. The Rs are still worth fighting for but after the immigration debacle I am not quite as enthusiastic.

That fucking Pedo better watch his back.

Posted by: Uniball at July 30, 2007 03:27 PM (27iEn)

30

Ace,

Wouldn't What Color is Your Butt Plug make a great title for a self help book?

 

 

 

Posted by: Liberrocky at July 30, 2007 03:31 PM (HR16A)

31 In the meantime, we who are subsidizing their breeding have rights, whether the like it or not.

Oh, goody.  A libertarian free-rider is whining about "subsidizing" my kids.  In the future, this jackhole is probably going to need things like medical care, security and a productive economy that keeps his retirement accounts in the black.

The kids that result from all that "breeding" are going to grow up to be doctors, soldiers, police officers and all of them are going to contribute to the economy and pay the taxes to keep his roads paved and the quality of his life high. Parents, at high economic cost, take on the responsibility of raising kids and turning them into productive members of society. It's not cheap, and it is an economic good.

So this guy should quit his whining and stay away from my kids.

Posted by: Slublog at July 30, 2007 03:33 PM (R8+nJ)

32 Loose shit alert...  Italics for everyone!

Posted by: someone at July 30, 2007 03:33 PM (eCH82)

33 Heh, Ace forgot to close his tags again.

Posted by: sinistar at July 30, 2007 03:37 PM (lMR62)

34

i/>

 

Posted by: italics at July 30, 2007 03:37 PM (5oRVX)

35

</i>be gone, italics, be gone!

Posted by: BumperStickerist at July 30, 2007 03:38 PM (wieXQ)

36 OT, but going with the Libertarian theme, it will be a cold day in hell that I give up the right to hit one of Ace's posts with off topic...um... topics. Especially since he blackholes my emails anyway. I know... it's not me, it's you. <sniff>

Baby boomers enjoy a lifetime of roads designed for their driving habits, now demand roads designed to assuage their guilt over their fat-asses.

WTH, I'll go for a twofer OT:

I thought Jerry Falwell was dead?...

Josef Stalin, Adolf Hitler and Franklin D. Roosevelt are missing their clothes and Fred Flintstone and the Teletubbies are just plain missing...

Posted by: krakatoa at July 30, 2007 03:38 PM (n+ZaI)

37 Give me a juvenile libertarian over a RINO anyday.

Posted by: John Galt at July 30, 2007 03:38 PM (A5mvC)

38

As Victor Borge once remarked:  The difference between a Libertarian and an Objectivist?

The Libertarian burns longer.

 

-

Or maybe that was a violin and viola .... I forget sometimes.

Posted by: BumperStickerist at July 30, 2007 03:39 PM (wieXQ)

39

John Galt:

So I guess you've sent in a twenty to Ron Paul HQ, then?

Posted by: See-Dubya at July 30, 2007 03:42 PM (+TdwW)

40 linking infuriating comments by libertarians on Volokh's site.

On the upside, it's good to see that rho has found a new blog home.

Posted by: Drew at July 30, 2007 03:43 PM (hlYel)

41

They have those bike lanes in Chicago and I despise them.

Boomers are gonna get their fat carbon-neutral asses hit by a truck if they keep this up. Get off the damn road you nutballs! I'm having a hard enough time as it is weaving between the staggering crackheads who loose their balance and meander into the middle of the road without hitting the asshole trying to pass on the wrong side because he can't wait for the car in front of him to turn right without these damn bicyclists going 10MPH leaning a foot into my lane everytime their left leg pedals down.

Posted by: Entropy at July 30, 2007 03:45 PM (m6c4H)

42

>>Then again, I'm a vulgarian not to shock or outrage readers, but to pander to them (and I use the word "pander' in its most neutral sense -- to please, to amuse).

And I am grateful for that. Nothing panders to me like letting loose a river of vulgarity. Puerility is my religion, vulgarity my passion.

Posted by: Tushar D at July 30, 2007 03:45 PM (IlgNp)

43 And the discussing what he'd like to do with a specific child almost certainly can be actionable

Certainly, and remember that it was something along these lines that brought Debbie "Vile Deb" Frisch to the attention of various law enforcement institutions in Oregon and Colorado.

Posted by: OregonMuse at July 30, 2007 03:48 PM (WqDqW)

44

I think Instapundit would probably classify himself as a Libertarian - but I agree 100% with respect to Fundementalist Libertarians and Fetish Libertarians, which is what you seem to be talking about here.

Oh, Sparkle - the Democrats love the ACLU and the ACLU loves NAMBLA.  'Nuff said.

Posted by: holdfast at July 30, 2007 03:48 PM (Gzb30)

45 Real Libertarians are living in the same "perfectibility of man", enlightenment, dreamworld as real Communists. When I realized this I lost my affinity for libertarianism.

Posted by: TBinSTL at July 30, 2007 03:49 PM (2J6+t)

46

I have been reluctant to comment on this, because I have a 2 year old, but when RG sent me this earlier today, I was so angry for this reason:

I have stopped taking my daughter to a public fountain that doubles as a wading pool in Tower Grove Park because there is some guy who has been there the last few times my wife has been there with her. All he does is take pictures of the children in the water. When my wife asked him why he kept following my daughter around, he said he was a freelancer who is doing a book of children at play. That creeped her out to the point she doesn't want to go back.

 

Maybe the guy is legit. I don't know. I wasn't there. But, my uncle, who has some pull with the City Police and Political Machine, is looking into it.

Posted by: eddiebear at July 30, 2007 03:49 PM (wnU1W)

47 Are the tags open?  They look closed to me.  Let me know where the trouble seems to begin; my browser shows them closed.

Posted by: ace at July 30, 2007 03:49 PM (1UCRY)

48 Ace... when you use the word libertarian, what kind of libertarian are you talking about?

Posted by: Watcher at July 30, 2007 03:50 PM (9B3vu)

49

For the most part, libertarians are good people. 

It's absurd to blame the many for the loud obnoxious few.  It's like when people try to paint me with the old Ann Coulter brush (or the George Bush brush, for that matter).  My support "conservatives" extends only so far as my relatively narrow Catholic principles are being lived (or at least protected)...  and when they don't go, I don't care to go.  No cult of personality is going to force me to support George Bush's irrational support for Alberto Gonzalez, for example.

Most Libertarians are the same way.  Likening them to Marxists or slamming them for being disgruntled with mainstream culture is disingenuous and false.  I mean, what good American isn't disgruntled with mainstream culture?  12 years old girls dressing like hoochies, illiteracy by choice, Nickelback, obsession with TV, 1 million abortions a year, buying foreign made goods, a likely victory for Hillary Clinton (at least in the Democratic primary)--every thinking person has at least some reason to be irritated with the mainstream.

I'm not a libertarian, but I sure don't hate them.  They are overwhelmingly good, conscientious Americans.

Posted by: Oops at July 30, 2007 03:59 PM (b1kNy)

50 Although it's true that libertarians do share some policy goals with conservatives, they do so, by and large, for bad reasons, or, to put it more neutrally, for reasons that conservatives reject.

I wish you'd expand on this a bit,  because I don't see it.  For example, I, a non-libertarian conservative, would like to see the Dept. of Education (or Energy or any number of federal departmental boondoggles) eliminated because they're (a) a complete waste of taxpayer money and, more importantly  (b) there is no constitional warrant for such federal institutions, and there never has been.  I believe the doctrinaire Libertarian would say the same. So we're 100% agreed on this issue.

Drastic reduction in the size of government. Lower taxes. It's what the libertarians want.  It's what I want. I'm trying to think of an issue where we would agree, but for different reasons, but I can't.

Posted by: OregonMuse at July 30, 2007 03:59 PM (WqDqW)

51 Too many make jackass pronouncements which drip with calculated "outrageousness" and a dangerously high level of self-besmittenness.

That last bit gets you too damn close to Beauchamp territory, ace, as far as writing technique is concerned.  "Jackassery" would have been a better word, or simply "self-importance."

Posted by: OregonMuse at July 30, 2007 04:02 PM (WqDqW)

52

Clayton Cramer had a great line in that creepy comment threat at the VC:

Go back to your NAMBLA meeting. Mix up several gallons of bleach and pool acid at the meeting--it's a great aphrodisiac for pedophiles.

Posted by: physics geek at July 30, 2007 04:03 PM (MT22W)

53

Also, don't forget that the libertarians refused to comply with the FBI's request for circulation records. Stupid bookworms.

Posted by: Oops at July 30, 2007 04:05 PM (b1kNy)

54

I like watcher's link. Good link.

I only took to calling myself libertarian in the first place because the "liberals" (progressives) have dirtied up classical liberalism.

The primary difference between classical liberalism and libertarianism is the way it views conservative tradition. If you told Thomas Jefferson or John Locke they supported gay marraige to their face, it would probably end with one of you shooting the other in the resulting duel.

Though the potheads are a pretty heavy albatross themselves.

Posted by: Entropy at July 30, 2007 04:06 PM (m6c4H)

55 Ace, you suck for suggesting that this guy is a libertarian simply because he says he is.  Do you hate Republicans because David Duke calls himself a Republican?

Posted by: Kevin at July 30, 2007 04:09 PM (1cRKV)

56

isn't this kind of ironic since the headline of the site is from HL Mencken, who was basically a libertarian himself?

Posted by: unknownguy at July 30, 2007 04:10 PM (KuXNQ)

57 Libertarians share with Marxists an utter contempt which what are frequently called the sensibilities and habits of the bourgeoisie, and, like Marxists, view these sensibilities and habits to be a large impediment to the creation of a good society.

I disagree.  I am a libertarian (albeit motivated almost exclusively by economics, not social issues).  And when it comes to these social matters, I am usually more in the conservative camp.  For example, I don't see this pedo question as an issue of conservative vs. libertarian at all.  It's simple: if the pedo is a threat, and the manner in which he posts photos is indicative of a threat to my child's safety, then the pedo is fair game.  His life is basically forfeit.  I see that conclusion as a vigorous defense of the libertarian ideals of defense of life, liberty and property.  I've never found that defense from threats is inconsistent with libertarianism. 

In his book Democracy, The God that Failed, Hans Herman-Hoppe argues that a more libertarian society would tend to become a more socially-conservative society, i.e., that the libertines (e.g., pedophile-apologists) of this world thrive as the economy becomes more statist. 

Posted by: Phinn at July 30, 2007 04:10 PM (DiZv6)

58 Libertarians just want to have their cake and eat it too. An impossible middle ground  between Liberal debauchery, and conservative order. Good luck.

Posted by: bmac at July 30, 2007 04:15 PM (GPVwP)

59

So, let me get this straight.  I'm also wondering, who in the world will be left to vote with.  Years ago, we ditched the paleocons.  Last month, Bush effectively ditched the immigration reform movement.  This month, we're ditching libertarians.  And if Giuliani/Romney/Thompson gets the nod, we'll be burning the pro-lifers. 

It's going to get pretty lonely.

Posted by: Oops at July 30, 2007 04:16 PM (b1kNy)

60

I believe you are improperly conflating objectivism with libertarianism. While it is true that virtually all objectivists are very libertarian, I find it is only the objectivist libertarians who have the suspect reasoning and who act as you describe. I believe it is due to objectivists rejection of religion that they act in outrageous ways intended to shock other people's moral sensibilities. It is their form of protest against the "moral majority."

There do exist a great number of libertarians who are libertarian because they "hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [people] are created equal, that they endowed by their creator with certain [i]nalienable rights, [and] that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." Being one of those people, I find it offensive when you improperly assign the reasoning and behavior of a materialistic and athiestic philosophy to my more idealistic faith in the power and destiny of God-given liberty and those who fight to free humanity from all who would take this liberty away to aggrandize themselves.

If you want to rant against objectivists, by all means, feel free. But call the thing what it is: objectivism, not libertarianism. Objectivists are just an embarrasing (and large) faction of the libertarian community (apologies to Cox & Forkum, whose work I love), and you should not confuse objectivists will all libertarians. I, a libertarian, find objectivists annoying, too.

Posted by: GD at July 30, 2007 04:17 PM (4ds4r)

61 I think I've told this story before, and kinda O/T, but what the hell...

I worked at the YMCA here in town for a number of years, so I hope you'll all understand that I'm not exaggerating when I say that the upstairs men's locker room used to be the most rainbow-bedecked, soderriffic, buttfuckingest homo ass-party east of San Francisco. Everyone there, including administration, knew it. You'd have dozens of guys up there jerking each other off into the free towels, and meanwhile on the other side of the door there were kids in the pool taking swim lessons. Nobody ever had the balls to put a stop to it, though, because if you so much as suggested that someone point his boner in the other direction they'd start ululating about how your hate and discrimination was making them feel "unsafe." The problem was never solved head-on; they simply got rid of that particular locker room when they did a renovation last year and that was that.

Think about that: an ostensibly "family-oriented" organization can't put a stop to grown men engaging in public (and therefore illegal) sex acts in the vicinity of children because it's afraid of the backlash.

That, in my mind, is kinda where we are with the issue of child molestation in general. We could pass laws keeping pederasts in jail, and therefore away from kids, but somehow they've got "rights" to things like therapy and short jail sentences, just like those desperate perverts had a "right" to Y-sanctioned handjobs. So they walk, and then do the same damn thing again, and rather than acknowledge that they're never going to fucking stop, we say alright, well maybe laws forbidding them to go within 1000 feet of a school will work. Because the "Don't fuck little kids" laws did such a bang-up job in the first place, right?

Okay, so the comparison sucks, maybe. My point is that we're dancing around a problem, rather than dealing with it forthrightly.


Posted by: Andrew at July 30, 2007 04:19 PM (inVOq)

62

Thank you, GD, for saying what I wasn't quite smart enough to say.

Posted by: Oops at July 30, 2007 04:19 PM (b1kNy)

63 I worked at the YMCA here in town for a number of years, so I hope you'll all understand that I'm not exaggerating when I say that the upstairs men's locker room used to be the most rainbow-bedecked, soderriffic, buttfuckingest homo ass-party east of San Francisco.

Bravo, Andrew, on that story.  You told it very well, in the classic AoSHQ fashion. 

If I can venture a libertarian analysis -- the YMCA owned the property, yes?  The libertarian property-centered view is that the YMCA, a private organization, has the right to allow towel-jerk-offs on its property, or to exclude them. 

What is the feared "backlash" of excluding the ass parties?  Public criticism?  Libertarians don't care about that.  Lawsuits?  Libertarians are opposed to lawsuits that limit a private property owners' rights to exclude buttfuckingfests, or anything else they don't want. 

Posted by: Phinn at July 30, 2007 04:30 PM (DiZv6)

64 Amen and hallelujah, Ace!  You've articulated all my vague dislike for people who describe themselves as Libertarians.

Posted by: Trimegistus at July 30, 2007 04:34 PM (UWiLM)

65

This is sort of a silly post.  I doubt more than a very small percentage of libertarians find this acceptable behavior.  Certainly no principled libertarians do.

I consider myself more libertarian (or classical liberal) than conservative and I don't find this behavior remotely acceptable.  I doubt Glenn Reynolds, Jeff Goldsteins, or others of that mindset would either.

Every political dimension has its loony extremists.  I put these guys with the Cindy Sheehan left and the "just nuke all the Muslims" right.

Posted by: TallDave at July 30, 2007 04:35 PM (oyQH2)

66 One wonders if you actually know any Libertarians.  You certainly don't understand the worldview in any meaningful way.   Libertarians demand that government act only to keep us free BY MEANS OF INTERDICTION in matters of force, fraud, or threat.  Moreover, Libertarians generally agree that minors are the responsibility of their parents until/unless the parents are remiss in their responsibilities.

Moreover, the photographing of private citizens (I am a photographer) and publication of those images is already prohibited by current law unless you have a signed release.  In the case of a minor child, you must have the parents sign said release.  The pedophile who is publishing his fantasies is at least in violation of this law.

What Libertarians do NOT want, it the Nanny State Liberals and the Daddy State Conservatives dictating what consenting adults do.  It has nothing to do with an affinity with Marxism (which pretty much all Libertarians reject for the crap that it is).  It has to do with keeping you people in the We Know What's Good For Everybody club away from our liberty.

Posted by: chuck at July 30, 2007 04:40 PM (4E/RH)

67 There's a difference between libertarians who are of that inclination because of a philosophical consideration of liberty and those who are "because, dude, get off my back and let me live my life. You can't judge me."

I have no respect for the second kind, but the first I think are mistaken but at least for noble reasons.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at July 30, 2007 04:40 PM (wmgz8)

68 In his book Democracy, The God that Failed, Hans Herman-Hoppe argues that a more libertarian society would tend to become a more socially-conservative society, i.e., that the libertines (e.g., pedophile-apologists) of this world thrive as the economy becomes more statist.

Uh, no. Probably the most non-regulated, close-to-the-libertarian-ideal institution we have right now is Al Gore's internet, and it's filled with literally billions of pages of pornography of all sorts, even the most vile kind.  Granted, you can avoid most of it, but in meat space, it would be difficult, if not impossible to avoid.  It'd be a mad race to the bottom of the sewer, I'm afraid.

Posted by: OregonMuse at July 30, 2007 04:44 PM (WqDqW)

69 Errr, Are you sure GD? Did you mean the NON-objectivist libertarians that are the embarrasing (ie Ron Paul) faction of the libertarian community?

Posted by: John Galt at July 30, 2007 04:46 PM (A5mvC)

70

Their entire philosophy and worldview is predicated on a set of assumptions more common among leftists

I can't begin to tell you how wrong this is -- though some like Gleen Ellers Wilson claim to be "socialist libertarians" so they can simultaneuously condemn their beloved fables of a Dark Night Of Civil Rights Fascism under Bush and support the very statist Dems, but really they're just idiots.

Libertarians are generally minarchists.  That pushes most of us far, far away from the left.

Posted by: TallDave at July 30, 2007 04:48 PM (oyQH2)

71 WTF is a "socialist libertarian"?

Posted by: OregonMuse at July 30, 2007 04:53 PM (WqDqW)

72 Uh, no. Probably the most non-regulated, close-to-the-libertarian-ideal institution we have right now is Al Gore's internet, and it's filled with literally billions of pages of pornography of all sorts, even the most vile kind.  Granted, you can avoid most of it, but in meat space, it would be difficult, if not impossible to avoid.  It'd be a mad race to the bottom of the sewer, I'm afraid.

I disagree. Meatspace doesn't have the anonymity of the Internet.  Internet pron thrives on that anonymity. 

As an anecdotal example, American economic history has been a steady trend toward statism and centralization, away from the decentralized libertarian ideal.  The end of WWII saw a brief restoration of economic liberty, but it was short-lived, and ultimately many of the socialist dreams that even FDR could not achieve were implemented in the decades that followed. 

Over that same time, American civil society has become more sexually explicit and less culturally conservative. 

If America in 1780 wasn't the mad sexual sewer that you describe, I don't see why it would be one tomorrow if we had a more free-market economy. 

Posted by: Phinn at July 30, 2007 04:53 PM (DiZv6)

73 Hmmmm.

I was a Libertarian for a short time.  Right up until I realized what a bunch of nutjobs most of the Libertarians I was meeting.  Seriously.  Where do some of these people get their ideas?

Posted by: memomachine at July 30, 2007 04:58 PM (3pvQO)

74 WTF is a "socialist libertarian"?

A member of the green party.

Posted by: CT at July 30, 2007 04:59 PM (KV/Mz)

75

Here's how I view Libertarians:

Guns for everybody, but don't fuck with my right to have my own personal Gimp tied up in the basement.

Basically, well armed liberals.

Posted by: bmac at July 30, 2007 05:00 PM (GPVwP)

76 Seriously.  Where do some of these people get their ideas?

http://www.mises.org/

Posted by: Phinn at July 30, 2007 05:00 PM (DiZv6)

77

The New York Times managed to make the mothers look more strange than the pedophile....

The Libertarian slam is a bit of a broad brush. Frankly, I'm glad they are there, tugging from the Limited Government side, while liberals tug from the other.

To be honest, when I catch too much Fox News and need to be exposed to non-liberals who DON'T wear clown noses when making a point, I go to Reason Online, the liberatarian mag.

Posted by: CJ at July 30, 2007 05:03 PM (9KqcB)

78 "As an anecdotal example, American economic history has been a steady trend toward statism and centralization, away from the decentralized libertarian ideal."

Well, sort of.

Yes, there's more statism and regulation now.  However, there are also uncountably more forms of (non-gov't) economic possibility today than in the yeoman farmer idyll of yore.

Unsurprisingly, the new possibilities tend to be receptive to pr0n.

"Where do some of these people get their ideas?"


Pot.  They're libertarians, you know.

Posted by: someone at July 30, 2007 05:12 PM (eCH82)

79

For the most part, this whole discussion ignores the power of the social contract...  which is what governs what we do in public much more than the law. 

There is no law commanding people hold open doors for each other or help someone when they fall or try to find the owner of a found object of value...  but most people do these things because people are good.  Especially if you live in a smaller community, with a strong culture. 

Once you move to the city and get "street smart" then all that stuff falls apart.  People learn to be predatory really fast.  Liberally inclined people start exploiting the social system and conservatively inclined start exploiting the economic system.  But if you lived freely, in a close community, nobody would tolerate your desire to walk around naked with a flag in your butt.  And you'd get run out of town if you tried to gouge people on water during a shortage.

Liberatarianism (even anarchism) is the realm in which most of us operate most of the time.  The law only exerts itself on our consciousness in extreme situations.  And if you are a virtuous person, worrying about the law is probably rarely on your mind (unless the law itself is unjust and unreasonably difficult to follow). 

But there is a difference between Libertarianism/Anarchism/Capitalism as a description of the natural order and a prescription of what we should do.  And, I think the frustration most people feel, comes with those who take permissive political philosophies as an excuse to run to the limit.  Which is what bad capitalists do, too (They lay off workers to maximize profits because they can, with little consideration for how their decision will damage the freedom and dignity of the individuals they employ).

Posted by: Oops at July 30, 2007 05:18 PM (b1kNy)

80 I believe the libertarian philosophy sans economic policy, fails to take into account the slippery slope argument.  We were set up as a republic just for that reason. 

Posted by: polynikes at July 30, 2007 05:18 PM (m2CN7)

81 The libertarian property-centered view is that the YMCA, a private organization, has the right to allow towel-jerk-offs on its property, or to exclude them.

I give up.

Posted by: Andrew at July 30, 2007 05:22 PM (inVOq)

82

Do no objectivists support Ron Paul? I would be a bit surprised if that was the case. That being said, I do not support Ron Paul, primarily because of his suicidal foreign policy, and I have met a great many libertarians who agree with me. So, I don't know that you could call Ron Paul and his supporters "the other" libertarians as opposed to the objectivists.

And when I speak of libertarianism, I want to make clear that I do not refer to the Libertarian Party. I believe that political parties create a divisive factionalism in society that leads to a reduction of liberty as each side takes power and subsequently takes aim at the preferred liberties of the other factions who opposed them as a form of political retailiation for that opposition. Therefore, I refuse to join any political party.

Unfortunately, there is not currently a realistic way to find electable political candidates without party affiliation. Hopefully that will some day change. But I definitely don't support Ron Paul in this race. I'm in for Fred Thompson.

Posted by: GD at July 30, 2007 05:24 PM (4ds4r)

83 If America in 1780 wasn't the mad sexual sewer that you describe, I don't see why it would be one tomorrow if we had a more free-market economy.

Because I think the America of today, culturally and religiously, is very different than the America of 1780.  Back then, religion was far more of a restraining force, rather than now, where it has mostly been relegated to the status of a private hobby, like stamp collecting or dry fly fishing.

I don't believe statism caused moral decay.  I think they're probably both symptoms of the same disease.

Posted by: OregonMuse at July 30, 2007 05:36 PM (WqDqW)

84 Let me revise that last graf:

I don't believe statism caused moral decay.  I think they're probably both symptoms of the same disease.

should be:

I don't believe statism created a climate within which moral decay could thrive.  I think they're probably both symptoms of the same disease.

Posted by: OregonMuse at July 30, 2007 05:40 PM (WqDqW)

85 The law only exerts itself on our consciousness in extreme situations.  And if you are a virtuous person, worrying about the law is probably rarely on your mind (unless the law itself is unjust and unreasonably difficult to follow).

A big problem is that there are being created too many unjust laws, as far as I am concerned (ie: Nanny State laws - smoking, motorcycle helmets, seat-belts...), thus they do affect many daily and are on my mind.

I think a lot of people are getting upset because they see Ace crapping on Libertarians and they see themselves as a Libertarian. When in fact they are not really Libertarians, but are small Gov't Federalists, as am I.

Posted by: Psycho Pyro Nerdo at July 30, 2007 05:43 PM (NJi0O)

86 Because I think the America of today, culturally and religiously, is very different than the America of 1780.  Back then, religion was far more of a restraining force, rather than now, where it has mostly been relegated to the status of a private hobby, like stamp collecting or dry fly fishing.

I agree, but you cannot ignore the effect of the growth of the state on the decline of the influence of religious organizations.  Private organizations decline as the power of the state increases.  This includes religions, families, social clubs, etc.

Posted by: Phinn at July 30, 2007 05:47 PM (DiZv6)

87 I dunno, have we really forgotten the brothel culture and all that?

The past was hardly desexualized.

Posted by: someone at July 30, 2007 05:48 PM (eCH82)

88 I dunno, have we really forgotten the brothel culture and all that?

Indeed not, but the difference is, back then it was publicly condemned and looked down upon, but now is celebrated and defended as some sort of natural human right.

Posted by: OregonMuse at July 30, 2007 06:06 PM (WqDqW)

89 Private organizations decline as the power of the state increases.

This is certainly true.

Posted by: OregonMuse at July 30, 2007 06:08 PM (WqDqW)

90

For what it's worth, Aldrous Huxley observed that as all meaningful freedom decreased, sexual freedoms tend to increase inversely.

The government will take away all your rights, but claim it was neccessary to "liberate" you from rigid thinking meant to control, giving you the freedom to get a BJ and remark how wonderful and free you are.

Posted by: Entropy at July 30, 2007 06:51 PM (HgAV0)

91 You mean Nick Gillespie and his "cool" leather jacket he always wears isn't really cool at all??

Posted by: Steve of Norway at July 30, 2007 06:52 PM (gBGtF)

92 A socialist libertarian is like a homosexual that exclusively dates and has sex with hot women. It's like a vegetarian that eats only meat. It's like an intelligent actor. Maybe that last one is a bit uncharitable.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at July 30, 2007 07:42 PM (wmgz8)

93

McDonald just says "cock" a lot because it makes people giggle.

Heh, heh heh....he said "cock".

Posted by: Ruth & Butthead at July 30, 2007 07:53 PM (OfFMv)

94 This can't be real. The only thing we have left in this society that we ALL (the liberals included) agree upon, is the absolute sickeness of a pedophile.

And that's why Nancy Pelosi marches with the founder of NAMBLA every year in her district's Gay Pride march...

Posted by: richard mcenroe at July 30, 2007 08:37 PM (clI2H)

95

While the defense sucks, the underlying point of his "look at me" crap is, sadly, correct. The sicko has done no wrong, and, no matter how offensive, his work is not admission of doing wrong, but work of fiction...no matter how offensive.

You have no right to privacy while in public, and the only reason that people are getting angry is that he's talking about kids. It's vile, and it's disturbing, and there's no shame in feeling sickened by this...but it's legal. People do it all the time with celebrities, and adults they know, and there's not much one can do about it.

If he takes pictures of his neighbors and talks about what sexual things he'd like to do to them...that's his right. The neighbors' rights are to know what kind of a weirdo they're living next to, and to keep their kids the hell away from him. 

Posted by: Kenny Simpson at July 30, 2007 10:42 PM (nLm4O)

96 Going back to the original problem in the article, when I was growing up, if his guy had pulled this sort of crap, he'd have been lucky if somebody came back and untied him from the tracks before the train got there.

Posted by: emdfl at July 30, 2007 11:04 PM (nzohN)

97

The libertarian property-centered view is that the YMCA, a private organization, has the right to allow towel-jerk-offs on its property, or to exclude them

Well, from the facts of the story, the problem is that the YMCA is being prevented from exercising its property rights by the threat of coercive state action (via the courts).  The libertari view would demand they be able to kick anyone out without being unjustly sued.

The view that gays' right to have public sex trumps the property rights of the YMCA is an argument from identity politics, not libertarianism.

Posted by: TallDave at July 30, 2007 11:12 PM (r1Ip+)

98 The view that gays' right to have public sex trumps the property rights of the YMCA is an argument from identity politics, not libertarianism.

My sentiments exactly.  Property rights above all.

Posted by: Phinn at July 31, 2007 08:52 AM (DiZv6)

99 I am so sorry I missed this post yesterday.  Nothing's better than a good libertardian rant purge.  :-D

Half of the self-described libertardians are just plain ol' gun-owning capitalists, who think it's cool to call themselves libertarian.  That's just stupid, but that describes MOST people.  Ever take that retarded "Are you a libertarian" quiz that the LP has?  It's almost impossible by their quiz to NOT be called a libertarian.  It's laughable.

I mean what the hell, it's not like all conservatives are for Big Daddy Gubmint telling you that you can't do this or that.  I think people listen to too much stupid political propaganda.  I even think it might be a good idea to legalize marijuana (not real drugs, though), but I'm damn sure not a libertarian.

Most of all, I can't stand libertardians because of their irrational paranoia (the Patriot Act, NSA, etc.).  Irrational.  Paranoid.  Suicidal.  Like the gubmint has nothing else to do but wiretap Libertardian Joe to find out if he's smoking pot or surfing pr0n.  Whatfuckingever.


Posted by: Beth at July 31, 2007 05:13 PM (yqiXY)

100 I didn't even go to the link, and I am creeped out.

I didn't either, and I won't.  I don't need the anger.  That kind of shit sends me into orbit.  (Another top reason I hate libertardians.)

Posted by: Beth at July 31, 2007 05:17 PM (yqiXY)

101 And!  (I know, I'm overdoing it)

A pedophile is, like Lewis Carol, a person who likes kids. If parents don't like the idea that others like their kids, they can stop having the damn kids!

THAT is what a pedophile would say.  THAT is the kind of piece of shit the gubmint should be spying on, and I don't give a fuck if they call me a fascist because I want pedos caught and locked up for life (preferably shot by a firing squad, but stupid libruls wouldn't allow it).  I'm guessing not one of these assholes who defends the picture-taking pedophile has kids of his own (or if he does, he doesn't care about them), and if he did, he'd be singing a different tune. 

Here's some identity politics for you:  if mothers (not Hillary, regular mothers) had any real power in this society, the pedos would all be locked up for life, or dead.   Everyone talks about how heinous this shit is, but they're still out there, and they still get light sentences and put back on the streets.  Bill O'Reilly (I know, haha) once said that if we put in the energy to deal with this shit that we do/did for illegal immigration, the problem might be dealt with accordingly.  He's right, and look--nobody's doing anything.


Posted by: Beth at July 31, 2007 05:27 PM (yqiXY)

102

To judge the entire population that refer to themselves by the standard of one loudmouth is more then a little silly, don't you think? Let me say that libertarians are normal people that go about their daily lives just wanting to be left alone. In fact, that is the entire premise behind the philosophy that is Libertarian. Leave us alone.

Now, I will agree that libertarians tend to think of themselves as more enlightened then other political groups. But do not Conservatives do the same? Do not Liberals? If one did not think that their personal political views were better then the others then why would one continue to retain those views?

There are bad apples in every sphere of the political spectrum. I mean come on; Ann Coulter is a fine example of the trash that comes from the conservative side. Or how about Rush Limbaugh? Sean Hannity? If one is to be honest, they would have to admit these people make a living off of shocking people. Even with these people on the conservative side I would never judge all conservatives by what these few shock jocks say.

 

Posted by: David The libertarian at July 31, 2007 05:53 PM (CWAwi)

103

Beth claimed: "Here's some identity politics for you: if mothers (not Hillary, regular mothers) had any real power in this society, the pedos would all be locked up for life, or dead."

Yeah, sure.  In real life, mothers have tremendous amounts of "real power in this society".  Something else Beth blanks out of her mind is the fact that other people have mothers too, mothers who dip into the pool of "real power in this society" and plea "Puh-leeze don't lock up my baby for life."  Then the identity politics of Momism goes to work and whaddya know, mothers exercise their power to soften and trivialize, certainly not to strengthen social norms.

We'd all be better off if America wasn't a womanfirster nation and the loudmouthed Beths of America had much, much less "real power in this society".   Then there would be more well-placed justice (an Objectivist ideal most libertarians share) and less misplaced mercy (a femocratic ideal).

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