1 Hey, somebody spilled the italics jar again...

2 The New York Times.  An endless source of comedy.

3 You're welcome, Ace.

4

I doubt it matters much.  Probably shouldn't get over-focused on this particular suspicion, because then they'll say "AHA! He IS a real soldier! And here's proof!" and then just ignore all the actual problems in the story.

I'm wondering how much of this they're eventually going to claim was true.  I'm cynical enough to think that if the NYT is even covering this, it's only because they believe they can pop up later and claim it was all right-wing paranoia on the basis of a few provable details.

 

5 Move along, folks.  Nothing to see here.

I, for one, commend the New York Times for its bravery in making such a a bold and needed change in the story.

6 I am as anxious as anyone to get to the bottom of what I said. Unforturnately, itТs taking me a little bit longer than I wish it did for me to get me on the phone to clear this up.

But as I said, I am nearly certain I said something and that I am almost positive I am the editor of an opinion magazine.

7 Soldier and "soldier in Iraq" are of course two different things.

8 He's nearly certain that this guy qualifies as "a soldier".

He's not totally sure Al Qaeda is actually an army, but that's what the guy said.

9

Don't you remember I told ya?

He's a soldiah, in the war on poverteee!

No quote from no quote leaves no quote

10 God bless the incompetent fucks at teh New York Times.  Here they try to do a journalistic solid for their buddies who are in a pickle and they wind up a scandal all of their own.

As I wrote on the Duke thread earlier...News for Retards by Retards.

11

Together we will rule The New Republic as father and son!

12 I still think that the money quote is "He said that he had met the writer". Since Foer is in DC and the diarist is supposedly a currently serving soldier in Iraq, when would they have met? If Foer hasn't traveled to Iraq recently, then the diarist must have been in the US sometime recently! That opens up lots of questions.

The big wedge to knock this down is the timeline.

13

The only thing "absolute" we report on is moral authority. Mr. Foer was merely indicating that his good friend, Near Thaddeus Certainty (that's pronounced KNEE-are) had corroborated Scott Thomas was indeed a soldier.

You wingnuts need to find a better use for your time. Now go away.

14 The saddest part of this story is that TNR used to be a good magazine. For all of your justified criticism of Sully, he did a good job of editing. And up until two or three years ago the magazine was reliably rational, if too far left for my taste. But in the last few years it has simply gone off the deep end. And since its purchase by some Canuck company it absolutely sucks. Nothing interesting or revealing or sharp; just the left wing cant that we can get anywhere. And of course those silly little things called facts are now just optional.

15

If it's proven that the original story is a lie, what good is it going to do. 200 bloggers on the right side of the bloggosphere will know about it, while millions of people across the country (and world) will continue to believe these war crime stories.

I'm starting to wonder how long America can last with such a huge enemy within.

16 Why don't we skip to the chase here...Foer is gone.

As the guy at the Weekly Standard who broke this points out, it's been a week. What's taking so long?  This isn't Jason Blair deal where there's travel records and people to track down. Just show us something that proves you've got a guy there and where he is so we can judge the rest.  If you can't do that in a week, you're not investigating, you're establishing Plan B.

As for not being able to track the guys down because they are busy, that's kinda bullshit. The PAO at the FOB Falcon has already said they are happy to help facilitate anything they need. Of course TNR can't take them up on that because they'll out the guy as a liar (if he even exists and is where he says he is) and then he'll be facing UCMJ issues.

But even if nothing more comes from this we now know that TNR is willing to run anything that hurts the military. If this were a real story they'd have all their back up documentation before they ran the story, no? Now they are simply trying to backfill 'proof' after the fact.

So which is it Mr. Foer, are you incompetent or a liar? (not that they are mutually exclusive in this case)

17 Damn, I guess they block alums from my alma mater's Lexis...

Thought I'd try it. Bummer. Lexis was a great tool.

18 That's a big pic, yeah I'd try'n' look at it in a graphic app, maybe resize the thing a bit.

19 Anyone else having this problem?

Nope, I see the whole story, 'near certainty' and all when I click the link (using the most recent version of Firefox).

20

I've talked with some folks who just got back from the Sandbox, and there are indeed tales to tell of bad behavior among American troops. This is nothing shocking or even very surprising -- it's been true of any military in any country at any time since humans have been walking upright. Soldiers are generally young males, and this demographic cohort is not exactly known for probity and restraint in highly-stressful situations. That said, most people I've talked to think that the story as related is pure bullshit -- mainly because the incidents would have gotten the malefactors stomped into the ground (especially the mockery of an IED victim; that would never be tolerated). The American Army in Iraq is probably the best-behaved occupying army in the history of the world.

Every unit also has one or more shitbags. They are the slackers, the whiners, the layabouts, the poor-poor-me types. I'm betting that TNR's source was just this kind of shitbag: some kid who's probably hated by the rest of his unit and who has an axe to grind. (And that's assuming that the source is indeed a serving soldier and not some jerk carrying a grudge along with his dishonorable discharge papers.)

Soldiers can be vulgar, profane, and even brutal at times. It's a hazard of the trade. But they are also bound by a code of honor -- a code that is enforced not so much by their officers as by their fellow soldiers. Not all soldiers are decent and honorable people; but most of them are, and the honorable ones make sure the shitbags stay in line.

 

21

OT:

The sacrifices some people make to fight global warming bring a tear to my eye.

Elizabeth Edwards sacrifices everything.....well, atleast tangerines.

22 If a lawyer were so inclined, perhaps there could be a libel suit brought against TNR.  it seems to me that he identified a unit, but not the date that these things allegedly occurred.

But discovery would be fun.

23

You know, a lot of these "why?" questions could be answered by the possibility there's some sort of similarity of minds between editors at the New York Times and The New Republic.

I know, it's a wacky idea. But maybe it'll catch on if we all say it enough.

24 monty,

Well said.  If the IED story had been told as "My buddy and I were playing video games and were talking about this woman we saw...." or "There was this stray dog walking around and no one else was near by so I..." it wouldn't have raised too many warning lights.  Yeah, there are dumb shits in the military, who doesn't know this. There are what, 160,000 troops in Iraq, that's what 2 or 3 small to midsized cities worth, so yeah there are assholes.

But that's not what TNR wants or cares about. No, the important part of these fables to them is not bad individuals but bad groups, that the Army is rotten from the ground up.  In the mess hall story, lots of people had to play along and not say something. In the Bradley story, all sorts of people had to be willing to run the risk of death and injury just to be mindlessly cruel. And in the skull story you had to believe everyone in this guys unit was cool with desecrating the body of a child.

I've never served nor do I know a lot of people who have but the ones I do know, from a Private and a few Sergeants up to a Lt. Colonel, would have been personally and professionally outraged and offended at any one of these tales and would have taken immediate and forceful corrective measures. I don't think they are so different from any other soldier in this respect.

Someone would have stepped in and to believe otherwise is to believe the worst of these men and women. 

People need to pay for this libel.

PS-Good to see you back.

25

This is why the MSM hates bloggers so much. They finally have someone checking their biased stories.

The bad news is that only the small percentage of blogger readers every know about the mistakes. 

26 Not always true RWS, if its a big enough story, sometimes we can get talk radio on it (which has a wider audience), or occasionally O'Reilly or Hannity to put up a piece. We're still at a disadvantage, but we might be able to close the gap a bit.

27 Yeah monty, how are you doin', foot or leg or whatever you broke better yet?

28

sinistar,

That's true. We have been able to push a story to the news. 

29

sinistar:

Still got a bad foot, unfortunately. It's taking forever to heal up. Probably be a couple more months yet, and will require an MOS-change out of the infantry. It's just as well: I'm a lousy shot, as it turns out.

Nothing wrong with being a POG, though.

 

30 We've gotten a few through, RWS.


Monty, that sucks, broken footbones do seem to take a while. As for the infantry, maybe just not meant to be. That said, service is service, and its great you're doing it.

31 you boke a bone Monty?

32 What monty says is true, but there's something worse here.

There are enough US soldiers deployed in the ME for there to be at least a handful of actual psychos among them who, dropped in a violent milieu, have done some actual terrible shit that's so bad their boys won't cover for them, that could be spun into factually bulletproof anti-military propaganda. Shit has happened. It always does. But...can you think of any? Not much. You can easily make a list of hoaxes and ridiculous exaggerations that have been walked down, but...

Likewise, once a year or so, a white guy is actually proven to have raped a black woman, and her story could be put to propagandistic use. But...can you name such a victim? Unless you happen to be a friend of hers, no, you can't. You know Tawana and Crystal.

The Duke story, and Brawley's, and this continuing series of facially implausible and always eventually debunked soldier atrocity tales, are the ones that make the news. And no amount of debunking ever stops them coming.

Understanding why that's so, why it has to be so, is key. True stories never quite fit, obviously, but it's not only that. It's not even that.

The truth never serves the most important psychological purpose of propaganda, which is to humiliate its believers. They have to know they're suckers, repress it, so they'll lash out violently at those who confront them with reality. (This sound familiar at all?)

Otherwise, a meeting with reality might lead them to disobedience. Can't have that.

33

Dave,

you broke a bone Monty?

Actually, I cracked my right calcanus (heel). Normally this isn't that serious, but mine was a) deeper than usual and b) isn't healing closed. No one knows why (although the consensus so far is "you're old").

Like I said, I'll hopefully be able to reclass and finish training later this year.

Spare a thought for the guys in my home unit: they just got shipped out for a one-year "peacekeeping" tour in Kosovo. I'm not gonna cry over a hurt foot when most of the guys in my unit are going to be away from their homes and families for the next year.

 

34 TNR readers may have seen this story in the New York Times today. The story says that TNR knows with "near certainty" that Scott Thomas is a soldier in Iraq. In fact, we know this with absolute certainty.

Actually, if you read what that paragraph actually SAYS, TNR is claiming they knew what the NYT said with absolute certainty.  

35

although the consensus so far is "you're old".

Seems like every time my doc is about to splain something, he starts with "as we get older"...

 

fucker.  Sorry about the foot, and yeah, we'll remember your unit.

36

"All the News that's Fit to Print"

Maybe the NYT would like to borrow this comment from TNR for their masthead:

"The overall story is more important than a series of actual events."

That's a credo the Times could work with!  That being said, I am not sure where the author of the above comment, "diggidy", is coming from... in a prior post he speculated that the "diarists" name was "Sgt. Stephan Glass".

 

37

  Monty, don't worry about the change of MOS.  Compared to the rest of us couch commandos, you're still Rambo, Audie Murphy & Captain Kirk all rolled up together.  Keep your "infantry" attitude, and you'll be the infantry's favorite "POG". 

 

  Thanks again for serving.

38

The writing style was the same as that of a male prostitute who would dress up in a BDU when he serviced me.  Good enough confirmation for me!

39 he probably is a soldier, my guess is Iranian. Or maybe a 'soldier' of the Al-Assholes Martyrs Brigades or Al-Asswipes of Mesopotamia Platoons. something like that.

40 I'd only observe based on me and what an asshole I am way down deep.  I'd never state that I've never said terrible shit about every helpless minority, physical situation, or other dire shit.  I have.  I still do from time to time....BUT only when I'm in the company of people who have exactly the same sentiments and attitudes; otherwise I'm as passively PC as anyone at Berkeley or New Haven.  Now this stuff is vicious and I cannot imagine it being said to anyone other than a group having similar sentiments.  Something stinks about this but I don't know what.

41

My google-fu is quite strong and I can say with near certainty "Scott Thomas" does not have comments on tnr.com. I also looked for any comments in the last 6 months of anyone saying they were in Iraq and came up empty.

I think the more likely scenario is more direct. Forget commenting on the blog, "Scott Thomas" simply emailed TNR wanting to tell his stories. And TNR which has been burned by the Left for sometime now for their support of OIF were eager to get some of that base back on board.

42

What I find incredible is that Foer said he was going to contact his source and the sources friends to confirm the story.

So Foer is saying he takes the word of people who would engage in the acts they admit to doing.

If I knew someone who would make remarks like that to a burn victim and a female at that; is stupid enough to change a run-flat tire in knee deep sh-t; has friends that can put childrens skulls under their form fitted helmuts; and thinks some ammunition has square casings; i wouldn't take their word on anything.

Foer at this point has to have doubts since everyone who has been to Falcon has never seen nor heard of this women and 'Scott Thomas' claims to have seen her everyday.

The idea that any soldier would make such comments without knowing the rank or position of the female is ludicrous.  If the guy exists, he's really a wackoand his stories couldn't be believed as portraying soldiers in Iraq.

43

I was in the AF for 9 years, and your commenters have it right:  A small percentage of those serving in our armed forces are more or less psycho.  I *believe* this percentage is much less than the average for all civilians, simply because the military has several opportunities to reject volunteers before they complete training.  But the filter is far from perfect.

My guess is the same as one commenter above: that Foer likely met a guy who *had been* a soldier but had gotten crossways with the service--either dishonorably discharged or general D after getting in some trouble.  Guy had a major axe to grind, needed to get even with the U.S. military for getting rid of his sorry ass, so he makes up a few stories and Foer--who desperately wants to believe the military is a bunch of sadistic, baby-raping, dog-killing thugs--buys the deal without bothering to check the background of his source.

As to "how do we correct the malicious propaganda":  Surely between all of Ace's readers, we should be able to reach a couple of dozen military currently assigned to FOB Falcon.  Tell *them* the story and ask *them* to write stateside papers demanding that TNR and the NYT put up or retract.  Ask 'em to send a copy to their hometown papers, so everyone in the local town will know of the perfidy of the Times and TNR if the latter choose to hunker down and wait out the storm.

Don't just assume that the PAOs at Falcon have broadcast the story to all personnel there.  Based on my experience, that's something no PAO would risk doing.  So let's hit up our relatives serving there and keep the fire going until the truth gets smoked out.

I smell another Dan Rather moment.

44

I heard from Scott Thomas that Monty had his leg torn off by a dog after a toungue-less Iraqi boy shot out his run-flat treads on his Humvee. 

I'm nearly certain of it.

45 Monty -- Get into the UAV MOS's. That's gonna be a growin' field.  Even if, baby Jesus preserve us, we get a jackass in the White House, they'll be sending out the robots for photo ops.

46

I think this is interesting in he shock troops article.

 

In every instance, the author (Scott Thomas) describes all the other soldiers as laughing:

1. '''You're crazy, man!" my friend said, doubling over with laughter'''

2. ''''people dropped shovels and sandbags, folding in half with laughter.'''''

3. '''''A roar of laughter broke out over the radio'''''

4. '''''I didn't see the third kill, but I heard about it over the radio. Everyone was laughing, nearly rolling with laughter''''''''

Apparently Army guys spend alot of time bending and rolling with laughter

even all together on radios.  It must be an amazing sight to behold.

Whoever this guy is, he isn't very bright and needs to make up better stories, I said, doubled over with laughter.

And the comment that the women NEARLY knock her tray to the floor is more literary nonsense.  He is describing a non-event (Nearly) as a dramatic flare.

Sad that Foer couldn't see through this BS.

 

47

Ooops, missed one:

5.  ''''It's like hunting in Iraq!" he said, shaking with laughter.''''

 

Whole lot of shaking, bending, rolling, doubling over going on......

 

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