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Deleted: The New York Times Reported TNR Had "NEAR Certainty" Baghdad Diarist Was A Soldier

A follow-up too big to tuck in as an update to the post.

The original NYT story ran thus:

The magazine granted anonymity to the writer to keep him from being punished by his military superiors and to allow him to write candidly, Mr. Foer said. He said that he had met the writer and that he knows with “near certainty” that he is, in fact, a soldier.

Note the quotes. The reporter is claiming here to not be paraphrasing, but taking the subject's words verbatim from his lips.

TNR objected and claimed on its site they were "absolutely" certain he was a soldier.

But note Foer does not claim to have been misquoted.

TNR readers may have seen this story in the New York Times today. The story says that TNR knows with "near certainty" that Scott Thomas is a soldier in Iraq. In fact, we know this with absolute certainty.

The NYT dutifully changed the story (without making note it was correcting what is a blatant error, assuming it was an error, as is its practice) and has now omitted the "with 'near certainty'" line from its piece.

"The Editors" (Foer, I imagine, chief among them) wrote this "clarification." They do not claim Foer was misquoted, merely that the quote does not accurately reflect the situation.

So it appears by TNR's tacit admission Foer did say this. It further appears that the NYT changed a killer quote to protect Foer's magazine from Foer's quote.

Why?

Why did the NYT reporter at first believe Foer had expressed only "near certainty" that the man claiming to be a soldier in Baghdad was in fact even a soldier a Baghdad? Where did he get this impression? Are the words in his notebook? May we see them?

Why did Foer only originally say he was "nearly certain" his alleged soldier was even a solider at all?

Why did the NYT alter the story without alerting the public it was doing so, and without explaining the reasons for the alteration?

Has the NYT caved under pressure from TNR to change the quote, with Foer claiming he misspoke and shouldn't have that error held against him? But if that's the case, why did he misspeak? Why was he initially only comfortable giving this "maybe, I think" quasi-verification of his diarist's mere identity?

The Times needs to explain this. So does TNR. And their stories had better fucking match up.

Someone made a rather major error here, and it is actually crucial to the story -- indeed, it's what the NYT used to be in the business of reporting, actual big news -- if Foer was the one who "misspoke."

So I want to know who erred here -- the reporter in his notes/quotes, or Foer in the words he chose to vouch for his "Baghdad" diarist. Neither side is willing to say; the NYT is merely deleting the reference, and TNR "clarifying" without actually assigning blame?

If it was the NYT, fine, but they better goddamn finally admit an error and explain that error.

But I doubt that's what happened. TNR could have said that Foer was misquoted. They didn't. Because you don't stick a knife into someone who's saving your fucking life.

If it was Foer, I want to know why the NYT has changed his actual quote just because he called them on the phone and pleaded "Please don't run that, it's far too damaging to TNR! We only barely survived Stephen Glass for God's sakes!"

Would they be so generous about "helping" the editor of a conservative opinion magazine under scrutiny for running fake stories, I wonder?

Thanks to all the readers, including EC, for pointing this out.

Bonus: IllTemperedCur wonders when Foer could have met this person he knows "with near certainty" to be a soldier:

I still think that the money quote is "He said that he had met the writer". Since Foer is in DC and the diarist is supposedly a currently serving soldier in Iraq, when would they have met? If Foer hasn't traveled to Iraq recently, then the diarist must have been in the US sometime recently! That opens up lots of questions.

The big wedge to knock this down is the timeline.

Certainly it's not implausible the soldier -- or rather, the man we know "with near certainty" is a soldier -- was stateside at some point.

But there are questions. Why was this soldier in DC? How -- and why -- did he contact TNR in the first place? How did TNR establish his bona fides "with near certainty" during a stateside visit, which almost certainly was little more than a brief meet-up?

Screencap: Slublog ran his magic Lexis/Nexis wayback machine and sends this screencap of the story as it appeared originally.

Not that there's a whole lot of doubt about it; TNR itself notes what the story said (while curiously avoiding charging the NYT with an error). Still, best to have one's ducks all in a row when making a serious charge.

I guess. That's what people tell me, anyway.

Damnit: Slublog's screecap includes the line -- and yet my upload of that seems to end before the line, and I can't scroll down to see it. Anyone else having this problem?

I don't understand what's going on with this.

Hmm... Maybe you have to download the screencap and view it in paint-viewer program? When I click on it on my computer I can scroll down and see the whole thing. I just can't seem to do so in that pop-up.

The Obligatory Fake But Accurate Defense: This next quote can't be blamed on Franklin Foer. Or even the NYT. It's just from a commenter in the Plank "clarification" post named diggidy. Doesn't reflect on TNR... except, of course, it does re-state a rather disturbing belief on the left -- including among lefty journalists and pundits -- that the "fake but accurate" standard is a reasonable one:

His byline clearly states that he is a "Freelance Writer". He's a writer not a journalist.

He's capturing the feel of what is happening over there from the personal standpoint of a particular writer not attempting to capture specific facts. The overall story is more important than a series of actual events.

Silly me, I thought "the overall story" was "a series of actual events" accurately recounted.

But the lefties know better. There is truth, which is, let's face it, pretty boring and often disappointing in its refusal to reinforce your deeply held beliefs.

And then there is Truth, which is always satisfying, gratuitously so, almost to the point of pandering.

No wonder they have such a preference for the latter.

Tossing It Out There: I've figured, since the beginning of this, that the story of how "Scott Thomas" got in touch with TNR was fairly simple: "Scott Thomas" was commenter on the TNR blog, who had identified himself as a soldier in Iraq. An editor sent him an email, and thus thus the "Baghdad Diarist" was born.

My Google-Fu is remarkably weak, so I'll leave it to others to see if this leads anywhere.

Posted by: Ace at 01:50 PM



Comments

1 Hey, somebody spilled the italics jar again...

Posted by: mojo at July 24, 2007 01:54 PM (g1cNf)

2 The New York Times.  An endless source of comedy.

Posted by: Mark in Spokane at July 24, 2007 01:55 PM (M0MeX)

3 You're welcome, Ace.

Posted by: EC at July 24, 2007 01:55 PM (mAhn3)

4

I doubt it matters much.  Probably shouldn't get over-focused on this particular suspicion, because then they'll say "AHA! He IS a real soldier! And here's proof!" and then just ignore all the actual problems in the story.

I'm wondering how much of this they're eventually going to claim was true.  I'm cynical enough to think that if the NYT is even covering this, it's only because they believe they can pop up later and claim it was all right-wing paranoia on the basis of a few provable details.

 

Posted by: TallDave at July 24, 2007 01:56 PM (r1Ip+)

5 Move along, folks.  Nothing to see here.

I, for one, commend the New York Times for its bravery in making such a a bold and needed change in the story.

Posted by: Clark Hoyt at July 24, 2007 01:56 PM (R8+nJ)

6 I am as anxious as anyone to get to the bottom of what I said. Unforturnately, it’s taking me a little bit longer than I wish it did for me to get me on the phone to clear this up.

But as I said, I am nearly certain I said something and that I am almost positive I am the editor of an opinion magazine.

Posted by: Franklin Foer at July 24, 2007 01:57 PM (hlYel)

7 Soldier and "soldier in Iraq" are of course two different things.

Posted by: Jay at July 24, 2007 02:02 PM (VZ0Yh)

8 He's nearly certain that this guy qualifies as "a soldier".

He's not totally sure Al Qaeda is actually an army, but that's what the guy said.

Posted by: Merovign at July 24, 2007 02:12 PM (IaYDo)

9

Don't you remember I told ya?

He's a soldiah, in the war on poverteee!

No quote from no quote leaves no quote

Posted by: Billy Preston at July 24, 2007 02:14 PM (pzen5)

10 God bless the incompetent fucks at teh New York Times.  Here they try to do a journalistic solid for their buddies who are in a pickle and they wind up a scandal all of their own.

As I wrote on the Duke thread earlier...News for Retards by Retards.

Posted by: Drew at July 24, 2007 02:16 PM (hlYel)

11

Together we will rule The New Republic as father and son!

Posted by: Hayden Christensen at July 24, 2007 02:17 PM (Mi7Wp)

12 I still think that the money quote is "He said that he had met the writer". Since Foer is in DC and the diarist is supposedly a currently serving soldier in Iraq, when would they have met? If Foer hasn't traveled to Iraq recently, then the diarist must have been in the US sometime recently! That opens up lots of questions.

The big wedge to knock this down is the timeline.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at July 24, 2007 02:21 PM (tVbxd)

13

The only thing "absolute" we report on is moral authority. Mr. Foer was merely indicating that his good friend, Near Thaddeus Certainty (that's pronounced KNEE-are) had corroborated Scott Thomas was indeed a soldier.

You wingnuts need to find a better use for your time. Now go away.

Posted by: Bill Keller at July 24, 2007 02:24 PM (x8Std)

14 The saddest part of this story is that TNR used to be a good magazine. For all of your justified criticism of Sully, he did a good job of editing. And up until two or three years ago the magazine was reliably rational, if too far left for my taste. But in the last few years it has simply gone off the deep end. And since its purchase by some Canuck company it absolutely sucks. Nothing interesting or revealing or sharp; just the left wing cant that we can get anywhere. And of course those silly little things called facts are now just optional.

Posted by: Daniel at July 24, 2007 02:28 PM (nwJit)

15

If it's proven that the original story is a lie, what good is it going to do. 200 bloggers on the right side of the bloggosphere will know about it, while millions of people across the country (and world) will continue to believe these war crime stories.

I'm starting to wonder how long America can last with such a huge enemy within.

Posted by: adolfo_velasquez at July 24, 2007 02:39 PM (LpCJr)

16 Why don't we skip to the chase here...Foer is gone.

As the guy at the Weekly Standard who broke this points out, it's been a week. What's taking so long?  This isn't Jason Blair deal where there's travel records and people to track down. Just show us something that proves you've got a guy there and where he is so we can judge the rest.  If you can't do that in a week, you're not investigating, you're establishing Plan B.

As for not being able to track the guys down because they are busy, that's kinda bullshit. The PAO at the FOB Falcon has already said they are happy to help facilitate anything they need. Of course TNR can't take them up on that because they'll out the guy as a liar (if he even exists and is where he says he is) and then he'll be facing UCMJ issues.

But even if nothing more comes from this we now know that TNR is willing to run anything that hurts the military. If this were a real story they'd have all their back up documentation before they ran the story, no? Now they are simply trying to backfill 'proof' after the fact.

So which is it Mr. Foer, are you incompetent or a liar? (not that they are mutually exclusive in this case)

Posted by: Drew at July 24, 2007 02:39 PM (hlYel)

17 Damn, I guess they block alums from my alma mater's Lexis...

Thought I'd try it. Bummer. Lexis was a great tool.

Posted by: sinistar at July 24, 2007 02:42 PM (Gq/6P)

18 That's a big pic, yeah I'd try'n' look at it in a graphic app, maybe resize the thing a bit.

Posted by: sinistar at July 24, 2007 02:43 PM (Gq/6P)

19 Anyone else having this problem?

Nope, I see the whole story, 'near certainty' and all when I click the link (using the most recent version of Firefox).

Posted by: Drew at July 24, 2007 02:44 PM (hlYel)

20

I've talked with some folks who just got back from the Sandbox, and there are indeed tales to tell of bad behavior among American troops. This is nothing shocking or even very surprising -- it's been true of any military in any country at any time since humans have been walking upright. Soldiers are generally young males, and this demographic cohort is not exactly known for probity and restraint in highly-stressful situations. That said, most people I've talked to think that the story as related is pure bullshit -- mainly because the incidents would have gotten the malefactors stomped into the ground (especially the mockery of an IED victim; that would never be tolerated). The American Army in Iraq is probably the best-behaved occupying army in the history of the world.

Every unit also has one or more shitbags. They are the slackers, the whiners, the layabouts, the poor-poor-me types. I'm betting that TNR's source was just this kind of shitbag: some kid who's probably hated by the rest of his unit and who has an axe to grind. (And that's assuming that the source is indeed a serving soldier and not some jerk carrying a grudge along with his dishonorable discharge papers.)

Soldiers can be vulgar, profane, and even brutal at times. It's a hazard of the trade. But they are also bound by a code of honor -- a code that is enforced not so much by their officers as by their fellow soldiers. Not all soldiers are decent and honorable people; but most of them are, and the honorable ones make sure the shitbags stay in line.

 

Posted by: monty at July 24, 2007 02:48 PM (/V4PN)

21

OT:

The sacrifices some people make to fight global warming bring a tear to my eye.

Elizabeth Edwards sacrifices everything.....well, atleast tangerines.

Posted by: Tushar D at July 24, 2007 03:03 PM (IlgNp)

22 If a lawyer were so inclined, perhaps there could be a libel suit brought against TNR.  it seems to me that he identified a unit, but not the date that these things allegedly occurred.

But discovery would be fun.

Posted by: joeindc44 at July 24, 2007 03:03 PM (za2Xz)

23

You know, a lot of these "why?" questions could be answered by the possibility there's some sort of similarity of minds between editors at the New York Times and The New Republic.

I know, it's a wacky idea. But maybe it'll catch on if we all say it enough.

Posted by: Rittenhouse at July 24, 2007 03:06 PM (qD4kf)

24 monty,

Well said.  If the IED story had been told as "My buddy and I were playing video games and were talking about this woman we saw...." or "There was this stray dog walking around and no one else was near by so I..." it wouldn't have raised too many warning lights.  Yeah, there are dumb shits in the military, who doesn't know this. There are what, 160,000 troops in Iraq, that's what 2 or 3 small to midsized cities worth, so yeah there are assholes.

But that's not what TNR wants or cares about. No, the important part of these fables to them is not bad individuals but bad groups, that the Army is rotten from the ground up.  In the mess hall story, lots of people had to play along and not say something. In the Bradley story, all sorts of people had to be willing to run the risk of death and injury just to be mindlessly cruel. And in the skull story you had to believe everyone in this guys unit was cool with desecrating the body of a child.

I've never served nor do I know a lot of people who have but the ones I do know, from a Private and a few Sergeants up to a Lt. Colonel, would have been personally and professionally outraged and offended at any one of these tales and would have taken immediate and forceful corrective measures. I don't think they are so different from any other soldier in this respect.

Someone would have stepped in and to believe otherwise is to believe the worst of these men and women. 

People need to pay for this libel.

PS-Good to see you back.

Posted by: Drew at July 24, 2007 03:09 PM (hlYel)

25

This is why the MSM hates bloggers so much. They finally have someone checking their biased stories.

The bad news is that only the small percentage of blogger readers every know about the mistakes. 

Posted by: Rightwingsparkle at July 24, 2007 03:10 PM (OMP6l)

26 Not always true RWS, if its a big enough story, sometimes we can get talk radio on it (which has a wider audience), or occasionally O'Reilly or Hannity to put up a piece. We're still at a disadvantage, but we might be able to close the gap a bit.

Posted by: sinistar at July 24, 2007 03:15 PM (Gq/6P)

27 Yeah monty, how are you doin', foot or leg or whatever you broke better yet?

Posted by: sinistar at July 24, 2007 03:16 PM (Gq/6P)

28

sinistar,

That's true. We have been able to push a story to the news. 

Posted by: Rightwingsparkle at July 24, 2007 03:21 PM (OMP6l)

29

sinistar:

Still got a bad foot, unfortunately. It's taking forever to heal up. Probably be a couple more months yet, and will require an MOS-change out of the infantry. It's just as well: I'm a lousy shot, as it turns out.

Nothing wrong with being a POG, though.

 

Posted by: monty at July 24, 2007 03:24 PM (/V4PN)

30 We've gotten a few through, RWS.


Monty, that sucks, broken footbones do seem to take a while. As for the infantry, maybe just not meant to be. That said, service is service, and its great you're doing it.

Posted by: sinistar at July 24, 2007 03:30 PM (Gq/6P)

31 you boke a bone Monty?

Posted by: Dave in Texas at July 24, 2007 03:36 PM (pzen5)

32 What monty says is true, but there's something worse here.

There are enough US soldiers deployed in the ME for there to be at least a handful of actual psychos among them who, dropped in a violent milieu, have done some actual terrible shit that's so bad their boys won't cover for them, that could be spun into factually bulletproof anti-military propaganda. Shit has happened. It always does. But...can you think of any? Not much. You can easily make a list of hoaxes and ridiculous exaggerations that have been walked down, but...

Likewise, once a year or so, a white guy is actually proven to have raped a black woman, and her story could be put to propagandistic use. But...can you name such a victim? Unless you happen to be a friend of hers, no, you can't. You know Tawana and Crystal.

The Duke story, and Brawley's, and this continuing series of facially implausible and always eventually debunked soldier atrocity tales, are the ones that make the news. And no amount of debunking ever stops them coming.

Understanding why that's so, why it has to be so, is key. True stories never quite fit, obviously, but it's not only that. It's not even that.

The truth never serves the most important psychological purpose of propaganda, which is to humiliate its believers. They have to know they're suckers, repress it, so they'll lash out violently at those who confront them with reality. (This sound familiar at all?)

Otherwise, a meeting with reality might lead them to disobedience. Can't have that.

Posted by: Freud Wasn't Always Wron at July 24, 2007 03:40 PM (JLI/R)

33

Dave,

you broke a bone Monty?

Actually, I cracked my right calcanus (heel). Normally this isn't that serious, but mine was a) deeper than usual and b) isn't healing closed. No one knows why (although the consensus so far is "you're old").

Like I said, I'll hopefully be able to reclass and finish training later this year.

Spare a thought for the guys in my home unit: they just got shipped out for a one-year "peacekeeping" tour in Kosovo. I'm not gonna cry over a hurt foot when most of the guys in my unit are going to be away from their homes and families for the next year.

 

Posted by: monty at July 24, 2007 03:43 PM (/V4PN)

34 TNR readers may have seen this story in the New York Times today. The story says that TNR knows with "near certainty" that Scott Thomas is a soldier in Iraq. In fact, we know this with absolute certainty.

Actually, if you read what that paragraph actually SAYS, TNR is claiming they knew what the NYT said with absolute certainty.  

Posted by: richard mcenroe at July 24, 2007 03:46 PM (bYCy8)

35

although the consensus so far is "you're old".

Seems like every time my doc is about to splain something, he starts with "as we get older"...

 

fucker.  Sorry about the foot, and yeah, we'll remember your unit.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at July 24, 2007 03:49 PM (pzen5)

36

"All the News that's Fit to Print"

Maybe the NYT would like to borrow this comment from TNR for their masthead:

"The overall story is more important than a series of actual events."

That's a credo the Times could work with!  That being said, I am not sure where the author of the above comment, "diggidy", is coming from... in a prior post he speculated that the "diarists" name was "Sgt. Stephan Glass".

 

Posted by: sherlock at July 24, 2007 04:04 PM (G9/8V)

37

  Monty, don't worry about the change of MOS.  Compared to the rest of us couch commandos, you're still Rambo, Audie Murphy & Captain Kirk all rolled up together.  Keep your "infantry" attitude, and you'll be the infantry's favorite "POG". 

 

  Thanks again for serving.

Posted by: Russ from Winterset at July 24, 2007 04:14 PM (dyz/7)

38

The writing style was the same as that of a male prostitute who would dress up in a BDU when he serviced me.  Good enough confirmation for me!

Posted by: Franklin Foer at July 24, 2007 04:27 PM (tcMQZ)

39 he probably is a soldier, my guess is Iranian. Or maybe a 'soldier' of the Al-Assholes Martyrs Brigades or Al-Asswipes of Mesopotamia Platoons. something like that.

Posted by: negentropy at July 24, 2007 04:31 PM (27KAF)

40 I'd only observe based on me and what an asshole I am way down deep.  I'd never state that I've never said terrible shit about every helpless minority, physical situation, or other dire shit.  I have.  I still do from time to time....BUT only when I'm in the company of people who have exactly the same sentiments and attitudes; otherwise I'm as passively PC as anyone at Berkeley or New Haven.  Now this stuff is vicious and I cannot imagine it being said to anyone other than a group having similar sentiments.  Something stinks about this but I don't know what.

Posted by: Howard Veit at July 24, 2007 04:47 PM (+EdJR)

41

My google-fu is quite strong and I can say with near certainty "Scott Thomas" does not have comments on tnr.com. I also looked for any comments in the last 6 months of anyone saying they were in Iraq and came up empty.

I think the more likely scenario is more direct. Forget commenting on the blog, "Scott Thomas" simply emailed TNR wanting to tell his stories. And TNR which has been burned by the Left for sometime now for their support of OIF were eager to get some of that base back on board.

Posted by: abw at July 24, 2007 04:50 PM (FJ/ua)

42

What I find incredible is that Foer said he was going to contact his source and the sources friends to confirm the story.

So Foer is saying he takes the word of people who would engage in the acts they admit to doing.

If I knew someone who would make remarks like that to a burn victim and a female at that; is stupid enough to change a run-flat tire in knee deep sh-t; has friends that can put childrens skulls under their form fitted helmuts; and thinks some ammunition has square casings; i wouldn't take their word on anything.

Foer at this point has to have doubts since everyone who has been to Falcon has never seen nor heard of this women and 'Scott Thomas' claims to have seen her everyday.

The idea that any soldier would make such comments without knowing the rank or position of the female is ludicrous.  If the guy exists, he's really a wackoand his stories couldn't be believed as portraying soldiers in Iraq.

Posted by: Poppy at July 24, 2007 05:10 PM (Ddphq)

43

I was in the AF for 9 years, and your commenters have it right:  A small percentage of those serving in our armed forces are more or less psycho.  I *believe* this percentage is much less than the average for all civilians, simply because the military has several opportunities to reject volunteers before they complete training.  But the filter is far from perfect.

My guess is the same as one commenter above: that Foer likely met a guy who *had been* a soldier but had gotten crossways with the service--either dishonorably discharged or general D after getting in some trouble.  Guy had a major axe to grind, needed to get even with the U.S. military for getting rid of his sorry ass, so he makes up a few stories and Foer--who desperately wants to believe the military is a bunch of sadistic, baby-raping, dog-killing thugs--buys the deal without bothering to check the background of his source.

As to "how do we correct the malicious propaganda":  Surely between all of Ace's readers, we should be able to reach a couple of dozen military currently assigned to FOB Falcon.  Tell *them* the story and ask *them* to write stateside papers demanding that TNR and the NYT put up or retract.  Ask 'em to send a copy to their hometown papers, so everyone in the local town will know of the perfidy of the Times and TNR if the latter choose to hunker down and wait out the storm.

Don't just assume that the PAOs at Falcon have broadcast the story to all personnel there.  Based on my experience, that's something no PAO would risk doing.  So let's hit up our relatives serving there and keep the fire going until the truth gets smoked out.

I smell another Dan Rather moment.

Posted by: sf at July 24, 2007 05:13 PM (9ilOO)

44

I heard from Scott Thomas that Monty had his leg torn off by a dog after a toungue-less Iraqi boy shot out his run-flat treads on his Humvee. 

I'm nearly certain of it.

Posted by: Poppy at July 24, 2007 06:48 PM (Ddphq)

45 Monty -- Get into the UAV MOS's. That's gonna be a growin' field.  Even if, baby Jesus preserve us, we get a jackass in the White House, they'll be sending out the robots for photo ops.

Posted by: richard mcenroe at July 24, 2007 08:35 PM (clI2H)

46

I think this is interesting in he shock troops article.

 

In every instance, the author (Scott Thomas) describes all the other soldiers as laughing:

1. '''You're crazy, man!" my friend said, doubling over with laughter'''

2. ''''people dropped shovels and sandbags, folding in half with laughter.'''''

3. '''''A roar of laughter broke out over the radio'''''

4. '''''I didn't see the third kill, but I heard about it over the radio. Everyone was laughing, nearly rolling with laughter''''''''

Apparently Army guys spend alot of time bending and rolling with laughter

even all together on radios.  It must be an amazing sight to behold.

Whoever this guy is, he isn't very bright and needs to make up better stories, I said, doubled over with laughter.

And the comment that the women NEARLY knock her tray to the floor is more literary nonsense.  He is describing a non-event (Nearly) as a dramatic flare.

Sad that Foer couldn't see through this BS.

 

Posted by: Poppy at July 25, 2007 06:07 AM (2/wkZ)

47

Ooops, missed one:

5.  ''''It's like hunting in Iraq!" he said, shaking with laughter.''''

 

Whole lot of shaking, bending, rolling, doubling over going on......

 

Posted by: Poppy at July 25, 2007 06:22 AM (2/wkZ)

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