And by criticizing Marcotte, you are CRUSHING HER DISSENT!!

PATRIARCHIST!!

Amanda's in-thread response:

________________________________________

Amanda Marcotte May 15th, 2007 at 2:15 pm

[fisk]Nice thing about being a non-believer, Tib, is it springs you from having to be idiotically literal.

[original] That, of course, won’t happen; conservatives simply have more class.

[fisk]Tell that to the over 600,000 Iraqis we’ve managed to kill. But with class.

-----------------------------------------------------

In Amanda's world 'We' managed to kill 600,000 Iraqis. 

Amanda Marcotte - Psychokinetic Fission Specialist/Actuary

So a man who perverted the message of Jesus Christ to persecute the weak and uninfluentual dies, and people are talking smack?

Yeah, I'll get right on the condemnation.

Look, I realize Fallwell was on the Republican "team" and all, and so right-leaning blogs are obligated to go "The Left's being mean and stuff," (and some of the stuff on the lefty blogs is way, way, way out of bounds) but Fallwell was quite simply an evil man.

Sure I'm gay and biased, but anyone who thinks AIDS deaths are God's work deserves nothing less than a toasty post-mortem. You condemn the reverend's kind of nonsense when an Islamist spouts it, and you've had no trouble being somewhat, ah, unapologetic when they happen to shuffle their mortal coils.

Some people deserve universal disdain for the ideologies they attempt to unleash on societies. Reparative therapy wasn't any fun when communists called it re-education camp, but an American Christian agitates for that very thing for gays, and he deserves respect, etc.

Hell no. I hated how the Left reacted to Reagan's death and Gerald Ford's (Ford, for crying out loud!), but I'm giving them a pass today. They're not necessarily wrong. Fallwell is reaping only a fraction of what he's sown.

Jeez, its scary over at Pandagon, not a single lefty said anything ill about Marcotte's choice of words.  I guess groupthink is more important than morals.

OK Bumper, you provoked me. I left this at Marcotte's.  Doubt it will make it past moderation lol.

----

Even worse than the 600,000 Iraqis we got killed by opposing tyrants and terrorists in Iraq? The 100 million innocent people we got killed opposing Communism in the Cold War! Oh, America, how could you be so evil?

If only we’d been able to avoid the 70 years of Soviet military conquest and brutal repression… with diplomacy!

John Edwards 2008: He Can Talk Our Way Out Of Anything

"Robbie, I've never been a Falwell fan, but he did leave behind friends and family members who will miss him horribly"

People who died of AIDS left behind family and friends. Did Falwell accord them any kind of respect? No, he said they deserved it, that it was a good thing they were dying. The work of a just God.

Sorry, people receive the respect they extend. 99% of the time, I don't speak ill of the dead. Falwell reached a rare height in the kind of hatred and evil he directed towards his fellow Americans.

Before the hagiography begins, let's call a spade a spade. I'm somewhat conservative, and I think part of the problem in our society is an unwillingness to confront evil - especially when it is naked and before our very eyes.

There's Falwell. Look at him. If you can't, maybe you're just as bad as Left-wing apologists.

I managed to catch that while channel-surfing one day. Regardless of his faults, today is the day that I can admit he had a great sense of humour.

Sure I'm gay and biased, but anyone who thinks AIDS deaths are God's work deserves nothing less than a toasty post-mortem.

You have a cite to Falwell saying this besides just being attributed to him saying this.

So Falwell is evil because he didn't like gays? In the past 30 years or so, how many gays did he kill or order killed (though skewed "laws" and such)? Zero?

How many gays has Islam killed in that time? Thousands, 10's of thousands?

Of course Falwell is evil and Islam is just "misunderstood". It's obvious! That's why Rosie feels safe around Muslims and fearful around Christians. Oy!

I'm somewhat conservative, and I think part of the problem in our society is an unwillingness to confront evil - especially when it is naked and before our very eyes.

Robbie - your auto-irony detector has been recalled.  Please bring it into the shop for service as soon as possible.

I did not agree with Falwell, but to be fair, he loved the sinner and hated the sin.  He did NOT hate homosexuals; he did perceive homosexuality as a sin and death as a consequence of that sin (the wages of sin and all thar)/

He built up Thomas Road Baptist Church from 35 to thousands,  He walked the walk he felt called to. I don't see how anyone could condemn him to hell.  He may have been wrong, but he didn't "persecute" gays.

Look at it this way.

For many gay people in America, Falwell was a monster.

You know how happy everyone was when Zarqawi was offed?

While of a lesser magnitude, Falwell's death has a similar effect on some of us. I understand that not being the target of his hostility lends a certain blindness and ignorance in understanding the impact of his statements, the influence he's had on American politics, and the kind of hatred he used to profit in the name of Christ (doesn't that offend anyone else?).

Fine, you don't get it. *shrugs* You can complain the Left is too venemous towards these people, not venemous enough against those.

I'm not anti-Christian (I've defended religion - the Catholic Church specifically - many times on my blog). So if you think this is some lefty queer thing and want to make your fag jokes and whatever, no bother. It's par for Ace's comment sections.

But, I treat Falwell's rhetoric the same as the western European Islamist - dangerous, inhuman, capable, if not responsible, for violence done against the hated other, and unworthy of the democratic ideals of a clasically liberal society.

Continue congratulating yourselves on being better and classier than the Left - an attitude no one outside of Right-Left partisan sport actually believes. I'll return to being relieved that a sinister influence is now absent, and that some us are breathing just a tiny bit easier today.

Fuck you, Robbie.

Maybe someday you can look at yourself as a man instead of a homsexual.

You know how happy everyone was when Zarqawi was offed?

Here we go with the "evil" shit and the moral equivalence shit. And look where it comes from -- the secualr liberal wing of the Republican party.

If you guys think Falwell was evil, you know nothing about evil.

Falwell saying mean things about guys who take it up the butt from other guys sent him to hell?

Boy am I in trouble....

O Robbie of the Holy Persecution Complex, do you really feel less persecuted now that Reverend Falwell has died?

You know how happy everyone was when Zarqawi was offed?

While of a lesser magnitude, Falwell's death has a similar effect on some of us.

Robbie, you are a cretin.

To compare Falwell to Zarqawi  is the absolute pinnacle of out of control moral relativism.

I am Roman Catholic, and I felt the sting of Falwell's words occasionally, but never, ever  did I think of him as a terrorist.

 to persecute the weak and uninfluentual

Your proof of this would be _______?

If you guys think Falwell was evil, you know nothing about evil.

 I had to listen to crap that Falwell was as bad as the islamo-fascists. I would point out that the moment Falwell flew a plane into a tall building I would put a cap in his ass, but until then, stfu.

For many gay people in America, Falwell was a monster.

So their ignorance makes your stupidity ok then?

But, I treat Falwell's rhetoric the same as the western European Islamist - dangerous, inhuman, capable, if not responsible, for violence done against the hated other

Hilarious.

Only someone who's never faced any actual persecution or violence would say such a silly thing.

Mean things? Saying that gays deserve to die of AIDS - that it is essentially a justly created, deitifically directed genocide - is "saying mean things"? As Jeff B. said, that is rhetoric of the Hiterlian kind.

A joke? Falwell was such a joke that Republican presidential candidates had to grovel before him to capture the nomination. Some joke.

If you didn't think a man as influential as Falwell could say what he did without it having an effect, then you're living in a fantasy land.

Like I said, if you're not gay, it doesn't effect you, he's on your team, who cares.

But those of us who have been the target of the rhetoric, felt the weight of his influence in profoundly personal ways through law, media, and politics, care a great deal.

If someone on the Left used the rhetoric he did against a favored cause, promoted the ideas and agitated for actions and laws against a hated minority that are truly as chilling as what went on in many communist states in the 20th Century, the Right would be howling.

Anyway, I'm done.

 I'll return to being relieved that a sinister influence is now absent, and that some us are breathing just a tiny bit easier today.

Actually,

I'm on record thinking homosexuality is basically a mental disorder, sick, disgusting, filthy, abnormal and dangerous for your health.

In other words, don't breathe too deeply.

But those of us who have been the target of the rhetoric, felt the weight of his influence in profoundly personal ways through law, media, and politics, care a great deal.

Oh yes, because the "media" is just bending over backwards to portray gays negatively.

ZOMG! He tried to impose his xtian "morals" on us.

Falwell preached...xtianity. He ruined America and oppressed thousands.

The HORROR!

Now that he's dead we can have bikinis, mini-skirts, boob jobs, say dirty words, have sex, be queer, legalize abortion, marry other homosexuals. Finally, America is FREE.

I neither liked nor much respected Rev. Falwell. But I never wished him dead, and do not rejoice at his passing.

After all, while I suspect I would not have liked Atilla, I would have respected him, at least early on, for seeking to defend his people and stop depredations against them - and later perhaps, for making provisions for a future without himself at the helm. Unlike, say, Alexander who seems only to have been interested in wielding/increasing personal power.

I may well be completely wrong, but Rev. Falwell reminds me more of Alexander albeit with the benefit of possibly believing he was "doing good."

"You know how happy everyone was when Zarqawi was offed?

While of a lesser magnitude, Falwell's death has a similar effect on some of us."

Time, I think, to re-watch that video about the importance of making distinctions.

laws against a hated minority that are truly as chilling as what went on in many communist states in the 20th Century

You mean other than the fact that communists killed about 40 million people, right?

But those of us who have been the target of the rhetoric, felt the weight of his influence in profoundly personal ways through law, media, and politics, care a great deal.

I can see his obit now:

JERRY FALWELL - LAWYER, NEWSPAPER MAGNATE, SENATOR - DEAD AT 73.

Moron.

A victim of rhetoric?

Now I've heard everything.

Oy, if only 6 million Jews had your problems, Robbie...

Folks, once again, Falwell DIDN'T HATE GAYS!  He hated the behavior because it is against his faith, based on the Bible.  He did not push for their persecution.  Ys, he said some strong things because he was very much against the lifestyle that lead to (in his view) sin and death. 

He had many other and higher priorities.  He built a congregation and a university that is gaining respect (not that I have much, but I give credit where it's due).  He tried to help people live a live according to Baptist principles.  "Go and sin no more" and all that.

If Falwell was a "monster", you suffer from an extreme lack of imagination.

More like an overactive imagination, and an overweening sense of self-importance.

"As Jeff B. said, that is rhetoric of the Hiterlian kind."

You do realize Hitler went just a wee bit beyond rhetoric, right?  That Zarqawi didn't use just words? 

"If someone on the Left used the rhetoric he did against a favored cause, promoted the ideas and agitated for actions and laws against a hated minority that are truly as chilling as what went on in many communist states in the 20th Century, the Right would be howling."

People on the Left say stupid, ridiculous, hurtful things all the time.  If you doubt it, go read the lefty sites to see what they think about Jews.  Or blacks and latinos who vote Republican.  And the Right howls, pretty much every time.

But to compare them to Hitler?  What the hell? 

The biggest fraud perpetrated on the American people since the Rolling Stones -- homosexuals are a minority.

Don't forget your sins, John. Or are you like Andrew Sullivan and all Holy?

Krakatoa:  why don't you and Bart go fuck yourselves? 

Yes, Falwell was nothing like Hitler, Zarqawi, or whatever other evil slimeball you want to bring up.  That doesn't make him a saint, nor is it cause to celebrate his death either (at least out respect for his family if nothing else).  Yet the man was part of the effort to pass DADT, DOMA, kill ENDA, etc.  I understand that you or others may agree with him but at least grow a fucking brain and realize that those who these laws target may not exactly be pleased with the results.  Moron. 

John, lighten up on krakatoa -- he's on your side more than I am.

krakatoa was even "gay for a day." He got in the barrel, and everything.

...because you like big tits and cute navels, you're a fucking saint? 

No, but I deserve special rights, right? I mean, I'm as special as you, John, and I should force the government to pass special laws saying I'm special, right Mr. I'm a Conservative?

"Gays weren't just politically opposed by Falwell, they were oppressed by him."

If you don't mind my asking, how exactly are you defining the word "oppressed" in this context? 

<i>No, but I deserve special rights, right? I mean, I'm as special as you, John, and I should force the government to pass special laws saying I'm special, right Mr. I'm a Conservative?</i>

And I advocated this, where exactly?  I have no more want myself to have "special rights" (whatever the hell that is) than I do you or anyone else.

"That doesn't make him a fucking saint."

All I'm seeing here is "don't spit on his grave and compare him to Zarqawi."  Who has advcated cannonizing him as a saint?  (an especially curious turn of phrase, considering evangelical rejection of Catholic notions of sainthood...)

Oh, and Robbie, I have an even bigger horse in that race than you: I'm a pagan. If I can have a little class and show some respect for the deceased, it won't kill you to as well. No, really.

Posted by: Basilisk at May 15, 2007 04:35 PM (p27vn)

Awesome, another one. I can stop being a token.

Was I right or was I right?

Great. Two pagans.

Now we have bookends.

I have to agree with Robbie here. When that shitheel Falwell mouthed off about my purse, I stomped my feet and wept in silent rage! WHO THE FUCK IS FALWELL TO TELL ME HOW I SHOULD LEAD MY LIFE, HUH? In case none of you noticed I HAVE NO FUCKING SEX ORGANS!! And neither do LAA-LAA or DIPSY(maniac, if you ask me)! Only Po might qualify because Po has a FUCKING HOLE ON THE TOP OF THE HEAD! DOES THAT MAKE PO A BITCH, JERRY? Yah wanna stick your dick through that, huh? Yah wanker?!?!

You all can debate the issue all you want; but I can promise you, it's strictly genetics for me.

Come on by The Stud, Robbie, and I'll buy you a drink.

Did I say I was excusing them Jack?  Where exactly did I do that?  I said that I understand the anger and that comparisons of Falwell to truly evil people like Hitler or Zarqawi were invalid, nothing more.  Yet once again what do we find on this blog when someone who is gay says something others don't like?  Why the fundies assholes come out screaming.  Par for the course among the extreme Right.

Tinky, didn't you forget one?

Doesn't really count. He only acts like he has no sex organs.

That's funny, John, because Robbie came in here all fired-up to tell us how happy he was that Falwell, the Rhetorical Manical Oppressor, was dead. And Robbie explained exactly why he was happy:

Because he is a GAY. 

So that's why it turned into a gay-bash fest with all us homphobes. It was us, we started the whole gay thing.

Jack M:  Well then perhaps I should revise the post at my own blog on this then.  Oh wait, never said that there or here but I understand why you are eager to insinuate such.  Asshat.

Drew:  Yes, absolutely which is exactly the point.  Criticize Robbie because his comparison is wrong, that's fine and legit.  Yet what does one find here?  All of a sudden yet another debate about homosexuality and criticism of Robbie laced with "Nancy" and "Pirate", etc.  What, no one can say that while Robbie's anger is understandable from his perspective his comparison is over-the-top?  Nope, it's time to bring in Tinky Winky bits (or actually lack there of, which I hate to say was amusing).

So that's why it turned into a gay-bash fest with all us homphobes. It was us, we started the whole gay thing.

Which only shows what an asshat you really are, unable to point out that where he is wrong and why such comparisons are invalid even though Robbie is gay, without acting like a complete schmuck.  But then he's just a fag so it's okay, right? 

My personal thing is that I am tired of everyone claiming victim status.

The 'special rights bus' is getting a bit overloaded with all the victims who need protection from evil white men®.

Robbie - Take it up the butt like a man (sic) and quit whining, OK?

Jay:  Context completely goes over your head a lot, doesn't it? 

Robbie's anger is understandable from his perspective...

Indeed it is. I'll argue that Robbie, and you, need a different perspective.

I said it before, I'll say it again: We don't care whether you're gay or not. We're not the Democrats where they award points for being 'different.' We judge a person on his or her merits, character, and conservative-American ideals. We'll like you for being John, not for being John the gay guy.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the day that Noam Chomsky passes on.

Only if I was in his will. That commie is loaded.

Bart:  In case it escaped your notice, I disagreed with Robbie more than once.  Understanding why someone may be angry doesn't equate to agreement. 

Krakatoa:  Most of the time I really don't care what anyone thinks of my being gay.  That's the point.  You can criticize someone who is gay for making a statement you think is idiotic without going off into a tangent about homosexuality.  We don't all think alike, just as "white heterosexual Christian males" don't.  Now if you are speaking about those gays who do live exactly as you describe, than yes I'll agree with you.  Oh and as for the flak you get for voting Republican, believe me that saying I voted twice for Bush doesn't make me many gay friends (well, except for 24% of gays I guess).

Is Noam Chomsky gay or can we be mean to him?

I get so confused about who I can criticize now days.....

Let's see Pedophiles are out right now so they're OK

John -

Is being Gay your defining characteristic?

No Jack, that's not all that you said:

you excused them in the way that lefties usually do: by diminishing the actions of the bad actors discussed in the thread and the post by claiming that "they had every right to be angry." After all, if a few aggrieved homosexuals/militant feminists want to condem Falwell's soul to Hell, or compare him to terrorists, such a response is perfectly understandable to you. Right?

You also cut my comment down to 7 words devoid of context.  In more than one post I said such comparisons were invalid and not once did I "excuse" those who made such statements.  I said the anger was understandable which neither excuses the statements made nor does it imply agreement.  Now I generally think you are an intelligent man posting here, but I'm beginning to wonder since such simple things like this go smack dab over your head.

Sometimes I think I love you guys gays too much.

You crazy retards are all I got in this crazy world.

Let's see:

Falwell believes in God.

Falwell belives that the bible proscribes certain behaviors

 ( as in shall not kill, et al)

Falwell believes that God punishes bad behavior

  (as in going to Hell)

Homosexuals are dying as a result of a  behavior which leads to an incurable disease

Exactly what' so horrible in what he said, unless you belive he just might be right? That's when things start to get ugly, don't they?

Oh lemme guess, since I make an objection all of a sudden being gay is supposed to be my "defining characteristic"?  Typical.  It is a part of who I am, but not the sum total.  Sheesh if it were I certainly wouldn't waste my time arguing with liberals or bother with the Catholic Church.

I don't think the Catholic Church and you are going to get along very well.

They're pretty OK with the young boy thing, but only if you're a priest.

Generally speaking these sites are mixed, some are sane, some are freaky and hateful.

But it is truly ironic to see someone who rejects the Bible, rejects Christianity, and rejects the very idea of God pretending that there's an eternal punishment for sins. Sins against whom? Why is there a hell if there's no one to offend and face justice from? Just grade A stupid.

In any case, Fallwell's comments on AIDS were unwise because they gave the impression that God is more upset at homosexuality than, say, disobeying parents or gossip. The Book of Romans rejects that idea completely. It's not that the Bible teaches that God does not reveal His wrath against sins, it's just that He does against all sins.

Exactly, BC.

And sort of like Hitler, too, when he exterminated 6 millions jews.

And sorta like Tim McVeigh when he killed 160 people in Oklahoma.

And sorts like everyone else evil in the world you want to compare me to.

Thanks, BC, for being even more retarded than Knemon and drawing ridiculous conclusions about what I write. You're a breath of fresh air in this stale blog.

John

It's fun to see how upset you are....

Maybe you DO need special victim status....

By the way, there are degrees of sin... venial and mortal

There are two situations in which we commit venial sin:

» We violate divine law with full or partial knowledge and consent.

» We disobey an objectively grave precept but due to invincible ignorance we think the obligation is not serious.

         » Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It  presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.”

Good luck to you, since you believe in the precepts of the Catholic Church....

Certainly, Jack.  Of course while you are "understandingit" you may wish to point out that such is invalid comparison, unless of course you want people to accuse you of being a heartless bastard for no reason at all.  I know that you for one would never do that of course...

 I'll be sure to remind everyone I know who uses birth control.

Well, I can be pretty sure you're not guilty of that sin....

Is anal onanism a sin of omission or emmission?

Thanks Lokki, you just proved my point.

How many of you homos and morons are going to be glad when I kick?

I should write my own eulogy now so you jerks don't (further) besmerch my character.

Now Jack, if you are going to accuse others of changing the rules it would help if you didn't do so yourself.  But it's far easier to just say that I'm doing that by using only part of what I said while ignoring the context and then moving on, right?  Got it.  Be careful though, Bart may pop up and condemn you for believing in "special rights" while Lokki will out-Jesuit the Jesuits in reply.   

No, Jack. I simply don't trust you to stay on topic. You'd start talking about Dale Earnhardt and Mary Katherine Hamsandwich or Nebraska football.

John, you can repent by reading three Ann Coulter columns and five Charles Krauthammer columns.

Steve: Eh, good point. The Jebbies ain't what they used to be so change that to Opus Dei then.

Bart: Thanks, Krauthammer I read regularly. As for Coulter? No thanks, that's like reading Dowd.

Btw, I just on Capt Ed's blog comments from Al Sharpton and amazingly enough he has the classiest statement of all I've seen from liberals on the death of Falwell:

I am deeply saddened by the passing of Reverend Jerry Falwell. Though he and I debated much and disagreed often, we shared a very cordial and warm friendship. I visited him in Lynchburg, dined with him, and even talked with him during personal crises. Though we were as politically opposite as two people could be, I truly respected his commitment to his beliefs and our mutual belief in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As I stated to my nationally syndicated radio show, I pray for the Falwell family and join the nation in mourning the passing of this religious leader.

Surprising when one considers the source.

Nebraska Football?

hater!

Sharpton said that?

I'm shocked. Didn't know that Al had it in him.

Wait. Was he on tv when he said this, and did he have goldenpalace.com written across his forehead?

Yum. I'll have a Kathleen Parker and Michelle Malkin chaser.

/crying

Shut up.

You had me at "Hey."

Now that he's dead we can ... be queer

Bart announces his presence with authority. 

Well it worked for Don Johnson.

Yadda yadda yadda.

There were some comments on DailyKos, from gays who were thrown out of their homes because their "lifestyle" wasn't in with all those "family values". Much like the Muslim Brotherhood gives religious cover for Islamic brutes, without directly causing such brutality themselves; so Falwell and his fellow travelers gave religious cover to some extreme scum on the Christian side.

More relevant to the AoS lifestyle, Falwell also blamed D&D for Columbine in his 23 April 1999 newsletter. And of course he was a big force in pushing creationism in our biology classes. As for his death, that was a direct result of his indulgence in the Deadly Sin of gluttony.

My only question is, whether it would be better to pee on the gravesite itself or if I should aim for the tombstone...

Falwell may not have said the AIDS was God's wrath.  That may well have been apocryphal....however he said enough stupid things on the record that I will not miss him in the least.  I am a heterosexual, practicing-Catholic female.  Gay people are right to feel angry at the crap that came out of Falwells mouth as well as all the other groups he maligned.

At least they are not being hypocritical.

BTW, I am not talking about Andrea Marcotte, she is a moonbat.  I am talking about people in the comments.  Rational people who found Falwell repugnant.  I know I did. 

Bart:  I dunno, saw it Capt Ed's blog.  I was pretty damn surprised.  Maybe he has a heart after all?

Jay: Piss off.

Eman & Marcus:  I honestly hope you're both right.  I didn't like the guy but I have no wish to see him condemned to hell.  Not for us to decide anyways.

 TBR:  No, just planning a stay in Limbo.  Oh wait...

Christopher:  That's fine.  The media distorts so much it wouldn't surprise me if it took something Falwell said out of context.  Of course you'll have your work cut out for you.  Good luck with that... 

Good luck with the piece, Christopher.  Frankly, I don't know who I'd trust when trying to figure out what Falwell exactly said.  How many lawsuits has he been involved in where he's been found to have lied?

I'd love for you, or someone, to explain away his brickbats against the Tribe.

Honestly, anyone who has dealt with the press in the past knows how sloppy they are with quotes, how they misquote and mangle your statements, and how much they despise the religious right. Would it shock anyone to find out they did it with Falwell? Please.

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