1

35-40 shots?  9mm?

4 standard magazines.  Or what we call "not a big deal in terms of reloading".

 

stupid ABC fuckers.

2 But aren't the Dems in charge in VA?

3

Did it occur to anyone at ABC that several pre-loaded standard 8-round magazines could do the job very effectively?

Simply dump the empty magazine, install the loaded magazine, and load the chamber. It takes about one second to do that.

 

 

4 The Blotter: Never Let Tragedy or Stupidity Get in the Way of Your Political Agenda

Confederate Yankee

Brian Ross and Dana Hughes prove just how little they know about firearms, laws related to them, and the effects of both with their knee-jerk response to today's Virginia Tech shootings, where they attempt to place the blame not on the shooter, but on high-capacity magazines:

5 Oh, come now guys.  You know deep down that if the law was in effect this fellow would have set aside his plan to, you know, murder scores of people and instead adhered to the local firearms ammunition sanctions. 

6

There was a grandfather clause to the AWB for "high-capacity" magazines.  Which means that you could still buy hicap mags which were made before the ban, during the ban, you just had to pay more for them since the quantity available for possesion was a fixed sum.

7 RW--  or killed just as many people--probably more!--with a home-built explosive device constructed out of legal non-gun components.

He also could have started murdering students with knives, like spree killers do in Japan and the UK.  Would have topped out at 8-12 dead, but isn't that enough to make your point?


I'm wondering how many students had their escape hampered by those damn lecture-hall chairs with the writing table that folds over your lap. 

8

Could the killer have used previously-outlawed extended-capacity clips to reduce the number of reloads he needed? Sure.

Do we have any evidence he was carrying anything but pre-ban 10-bullet clips? Nope.

Posted by: Ace at 05:17 PM

 

What's an extended-capacity clip? Is it for holding up large amounts of hair? I think you might have meant magazine there ace.

The last weapon I can recall using "clips" was the M-1 Garrand. Beautiful rifle that was.  

9

Remember when it was cool to say SUBMACHINE GUN and call all automatic weapons UZI'S?

10 The first thing I thought when I heard about this was "Bet it's a 'gun-free zone'."

11 What's an extended-capacity clip? Is it for holding up large amounts of hair? I think you might have meant magazine there ace.

Damn, now I have to edit my War Journals.

12 ABC sucks.

Nothing like using some dead bodies as a soapbox.

13

Also, the usage of "bullet" is techinally incorrect.

The bullet is only a part, the projectile, fired from the cartridge. The cartridge (or round) is made up of a shellcase, projectile, propellant, and primer.

14 About 2.5 seconds start to finish for a mag swap on my Beretta 92F if I'm hustling and the mag is on my belt. 

If I've already got the spare in hand with index finger lined up along its length, that drops to around 1.5 sec.  I learned that trick in a tactical course.  Your index finger pretty much knows how to find your other hand automatically.

15 It doesn't really matter if the magazine is legal or not.  They just shift the argument.

If the shooter purchased his gun legally , it will be proof that we need stricter gun laws.

If the shooter purchased his gun illegally, it will be proof that we need stricter gun laws.

If the shooter stole his gun, it will be proof that we need stricter gun laws.

And then the swedish/british/french/candadian journalists/bloggers/commentators will start screeching about how this is just further proof that all Americans are all philistines, the president is a cowboy and that we invaded Iraq illegally.

It's all so predictable.

16 There was a kid in Springfield Oregon who invaded a school with a gun, and was going to shoot people. He got a bunch into a class and... they rushed him and beat the living crap out of him. It turns out even a good gun can't kill 10 guys at the same time.

Then again, these were Oregonians, not college students who have their gonads in a jar somewhere in the women's studies building.

17

"It turns out even a good gun can't kill 10 guys at the same time."

I beg to differ.

18 Christopher Taylor obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

19

Seriously, have you ever been in the same room as a gun?

20

If the guy was using pre-ban magazines (aka. standard capacity) in a wonder nine (Browning Hi-Power, Glock, CZ-75), and he got off 35 to 40 rounds, then we're talking about two or three magazines tops.  These aren't high capacity magazines, these are the standard magazines these firearms were designed to use.  Even if the guy used post-ban ten rounders, we're still only talking about four magazines.  Considering that this guy didn't have to worry too much about return fire (due to the whole "gun free" school zone thing), he really wouldn't have to sweat too much about magazine changes.  In other words, it doesn't matter what kind of magazines the bastard used.  Given that he was in an environment where he was the sole armed person, it practically guaranteed him a high body count when he ran amok.  Even if he had to make fifteen magazine changes, the outcome would have been the same.  Yet the ninnies will blame those demonic stamped steel devices known as standard high capacity magazines, not the bastard shooting people.  Typical...

 

21 Do we know for a fact that he had just a single gun?

22 It has been reported that he had two handguns. With two guns and preloaded magazines it would be easy to kill so many people. Remember, kids either didn't know what the hell was going on, or trying to barricade themselves in the classrooms. I heard one of the victims call a radio station and say he was in his class when the shooter entered and shot 10-12 of them. He left and then tried to re-enter but they were able to keep him out.

I'm still don't understand why they don't know his identity. If he was a foreign student, he has prints on file. In my state, you are printed when you get your drivers' license. I don't know if gun registration also requires prints. My point is, why aren't his prints on file somewhere?

23 the current report on Fox says two 9mm.   Which is strange b/c it seems easier to reload one than to switch back and forth between two in order to fire off at least 49 shots. 

I'm basing that 49 on the earlier report of 21 killed and 28 wounded; it was revised later and I'm not sure of the totals.  And that's assuming each shot hit the someone, among other things.

24 Alas, the shooter was a psycho nut, but a psycho nut with good handgun skill.

If the shooter used 12-round post-ban pistol clips, he  could load 6 magazines & have 72 shots, more than enough if he was surprising  individuals & groups of students taken unawares. If he had 6-8 ban-era 10-round clips, he could have 60-80 shots. That's just single-digit total of reloads, too.

Just goes to show that even 5.5 years past Nine-Eleven, people still are not prepared for a Sudden Death Incident. I guess he got 'em while they were text-messaging, or had walkmans/ipods at high volume, or were busy admiring the sweet l'il thing bouncing across the way?

25

Rumors are flying that the shooter is this guy:  http://www.xanga.com/wanusmaximus

It it's true, he had access to at least one MP5 which when carried can look like a large hand gun -- much deadlier in close quarters.

Again, just a rumor, but I've seen it in several places.

He's got the heart broken, gun nut thing going on at any rate.

26 One lib talking head on a news channel has already spoken of the "need for more stringent gun laws". Right. Just how many laws did the shooter break? When you keep doing the same thing, and still get the same results while expecting a change, your stupid. Our liberal politicans are stuck on stuipd.

I heard one narrative where the class heard shots, a young girls looked out and saw the gunman and closed the door. Everyone huddled in a corner then debated about pushing a desk against the door. One guy finally got the guts to do just that. About 20 seconds later the gunman tried to enter, fired two shots thru the door, then left. One out of how many in that class decided to do something besides being a victim?

You'd think, post 9-11, people would realize that there is a time to debate and a time to act. At least airline passengers don't waste time in debate any longer.

27

I can drop a magazine and rack the slide in 2 seconds, no sweat.

 

Not bragging.  A person with actual skills could beat my time. 

 

I would just scream at you to distract you while I did it.

 

God what a sad day.

28 Listening to the live press conference and I really, really, really hate the media. The sanctimonious haranguing and lame ass questions.

29

I speculate that this is because the democrats have abolished the 10 Commandments monuments.

Kidding.  Actually, I speculate that this is because some evil human being decided to go kill and slaughter.  But hey, that's just speculation.

30 When you keep doing the same thing, and still get the same results while expecting a change, your stupid. Our liberal politicans are stuck on stuipd.

Einstein was smart, wasn't he?

It's "insane"

31 Nothing like using some dead bodies as a soapbox.

 That really pisses me off, too.  They can't even wait until the bodies have been ID'd before they start with agenda pushing.  You want to argue gun laws, fine, but at least have the goddam human decency to wait a few days and not exploit this horror to try and buck up your arguments.  Assholes.

32 I can drop a magazine and rack the slide in 2 seconds, no sweat.

What does "rack the slide" mean?

Seriously.  I have no idea.

33 Ah just got arrested fur gettin caught fur havin mah 40 round strip-clip fur mah 1862 Springfield muzzle-loader.  Mah fine was doubled because all mah bullets in it wuz them new-fangled Minnie Balls.

34 Listening to the live press conference and I really, really, really hate the media. The sanctimonious haranguing and lame ass questions.

Posted by: topsecretk9 at #28

You're absolutely right, Secret Dog  -- these folks who are grilling the police chief sound like a bunch of jackals, hyenas, braying jack-asses and heartless, soul-less fools.....

35 What does "rack the slide" mean?

The top of most automatic pistols is a free-sliding section that serves several purposes. One is to absorb the recoil, another is to use springs and the energy of the gunshot to work a mechanism that ejects the empty shell and pulls another into place from the magazine.

When you "rack the slide" you pull the sliding section back and load a round into the pistol, ready to fire. It's what badass Hollywood guys do when they pull their gun out and look cool.

Many automatics will, once there are no more bullets, lock the slide back so that when you load it and release the slide, it pops into place, loading another shell. Some rely on another mechanism (like the interesting cantalever action on top of old lugers).

I watched a guy fire two full magazines at a target, hit the center ring with every shot and he reloaded so fast I barely heard a pause between shots. It was some Baretta or another, I don't know what kind. I'm a terrible shot and hate the noise of guns, but I do love the engineering.

36 Ah...thanks Christopher.

I enjoy shooting, but the only pistol I've ever fired was a crappy snub-nosed .38.

37 Before 9-11 there were lots of laws against airline hijacking and lots of hijackings happened none the less.
After 9-11 the hijackers knew that their fellow passengers would not sit quietly by and allow themselves to be killed.
The result? No  more hijackings.
Today there are lots of gun control laws and lots of gun massacres. As soon as the killers realize that prospective victims will not sit quietly by and allow themselves to be killed then such massacres will stop.

38 Perhaps the gun-takers are willing to experiment.  Divide the school into one with guns and one without.  Then see what happens.  The libs will send their kids to the school without guns (obviously the safer one, they'll say).  Others will send their kids to the newly formed gun-rich school (obviously, much safer, they will know).

39 Hey, Slublog,

The only thing crappy about any snub-nosed .38 is (may be?) the manufacturing quality.  My father-in-law carried one for years...and swore by it.  (For the record, he'd also carried autos; he liked the revolver's simplicity.)

I've got a .40 S&W semi-auto and I have trouble shooting it...accurately...beyond 20 feet.  I'm just about as accurate with my wife's snub-nosed S&W, even with the shorter barrel.

Shoot what works.  A snub-nosed .38 works.  That's why the hoplophobes gave it a bad name.

On topic; I really wish the first person this sociopath had encountered had been armed.

40

Am I seriously the only college student who has a plan for what to do in one of these situations?  I would hurl one of my engineering books (a lethal projectile in its own right) or some other projectile at the guy.  While it's in midair I would be unfolding my 5 in long pocket knife and charging the bastard with all the fury of brama bull hopped up on meth.  Hopefully, he will be distracted enough that I will get to him before he can shoot me.  Besides, instant death by gunshot is a myth unless it is a headshot.  A shot to the heart may kill me soon but I'd do my best to take him with me in my final seconds on this earth.

Yeah, I may die, but if I just sit there like a sheep I'm dead anyway.  At least fighting you have a chance of saving your life and someone elses.  There is no way in hell I would be lined up against a wall, hoping that the police will show or the lunatic will run out of ammo before he gets to me.

41 The only thing crappy about any snub-nosed .38 is (may be?) the manufacturing quality.  My father-in-law carried one for years...and swore by it.  (For the record, he'd also carried autos; he liked the revolver's simplicity.)

Oh, the one I used was serious crap.  It was a cheapo, and had no aim and no power.

I much preferred the shotgun.

42

I've owned and shot, literally, dozens of models of handguns, but the snub nosed .38 is my all time favorite.

Whenever someone wants to get one gun for protection, that's what I recommend. It's user friendly, safe, just powerful enough for self-defense, and, if it's a well-known brand, very accurate. It's small enough to be concealable, but good enough for home defense.

Smith and Wesson has a great, lightweight, .38+p rated snubby that I carry five days out of seven.

43

It was a cheapo, and had no aim

That wasn't the gun, son.

44

Re: snub nosed .38s

Snub nosed .38s are great if you are expecting close in work - say less than 25 feet.  If you want a pistol good to 25 yds+, not so much.  The sight radius is just too darned short plus the short barrel lowers muzzle velocity considerably.  I've heard anecdotal reports that normal loads do not yield sufficient muzzle velocity for hollowpoints to expand reliably - and lets face it, if you're carrying a .38/9mm you need the expansion of a hollow point (or VERY good aim).  That's one very good reason why you should carry +P loads in a snubby if the gun can handle it.

45 I much preferred the shotgun.

Mine bite back.8(

That wasn't the gun, son.

That's what my father-in-law told me.  Until he tried to shoot my Walther.  Heh.©

...the short barrel lowers muzzle velocity considerably.

...which is why I load my own.

BTW thanks, Slublog, for not biting my head off.

46

If you are going to go with a .38, might as well get a special.

Or, just get a .357 and load it with specials and carry a speed loader with hot load .357's.

47 I much preferred the shotgun.

Yes, well that's the great equalizer. I am not much of a shot but with a scattergun... you don't have to be.

48

The obvious point is that if half the population carried sidearms it would be very difficult for one person to shoot so many people before being shot himself. 

We'll see how long it is until that point is made on each network.

49

Watching the news all day, it seems clear that:

Yes the campus is a "gun free zone" so possibly not even security guards had guns.

The shooter actually stood there in the class and reloaded, or stepped into the hall, only to come back in 15 seconds later.

He had 2 pistols, a 9mm and a .22 (I'd guess a .257 in reality, a .22 can hardly kill a pidgeon) In the Quebec shooting, the shooter had a .223 Mini-Ruger (iirc) which was usually wrongly refered to as a .22.

He had no ID and didn't say anything while killing people. I'm guessing the cops'll reveal his identity tomorrow.

In Rwanda, some 800,000 people were killed, mostly with machettes, not guns. People have been killing others since the dawn of time. Making guns harder to get just drives them into the Black Market where criminals can easily get them. Homeowners? Not so easy.

50

On a lighter note:

"This is my rifle this is my gun, one is for shooting the other's for fun!"

"The Pistol Club:  We drink 'til midnight, and pistol dawn"

Networks don't consider it "news" when a criminal is stopped by someone other than the police. Unless it by a really old person, or a chick with a samurai sword.

51

Gun Bill Gets Shot Down by Panel

Jan. 31, 2006

HB 1572, which would have allowed handguns on college campuses, died in subcommittee.

A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.

House Bill 1572 didn’t get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.

The bill was proposed by Del. Todd Gilbert, R-Shenandoah County, on behalf of the Virginia Citizens Defense League. Gilbert was unavailable Monday and spokesman Gary Frink would not comment on the bill’s defeat other than to say the issue was dead for this General Assembly session.

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. “I’m sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly’s actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus.”

52 Good for you, OU_Gryphon!  I'm not a warrior, but I'll be damned if I'll meekly line up for my own execution.  I may not be able to take out an attacker on my own, but I'll at least make sure I get shot in the face and not the back of the head.

(And before anyone points out that no one knows how they'll react in a life-or-death situation, I've been there.  Guy was drunk and armed and looking for trouble.  I cowered for two seconds, then realized I was being stupid and found the button inside that turned that shit off.)

53

One of my favorite carry pieces is a Taurus snub .38, +P rated.  It's easy to hide it in the summer time.

As far as reliability, I believe it was Mr. Du Toit who said "a revolver is like a fork.  You pick it up and it works".

Taurus is a Brazilian arms company, used to be considered an inexpensive "not so good" weapon, but they re-engineered in the 80s, and the stuff they make today is very good quality.

54

Right after the dems took over the House and Senate, I made a significant purchase of hi-cap mags for all of my various firearms.  I wish I were not so prescient.

55 That wasn't the gun, son.

Heh.  Maybe.  But I was with a guy who was an outstanding shot, and this gun was just off for some reason.  He said it doesn't matter, though - at short ranges you're going to hit something.

So, if I'm looking at purchasing a pistol - something small but powerful for the home - what should I get?  9mm, .38?  Are .22 pistols good for protection, or are they just plinkers?

56

Hey!  Another KdT fan.  I knew there was a reason I liked you, DIT.

Mrs. L,

My thinking is that I've already made my life or death decision so if such an occasion should arise, all that is left is to act.  I'd rather be thinking of the best way to take the bastard down than facing my own mortality when seconds mean life or death for me and those around me. 

Some may say that is this is just a gung ho, rambo, gun nut way to think.  My plan may even be total bullshit.  But who would you rather be sitting next to: someone who at least has a plan and is willing to act or some panty-waisted liberal who has never before contemplated the fact that he may have to die violently to save lives?

57

I always hate to weigh in on issues of courage, because mine has never been tested and therefore might not exist...but if the guy is just picking people off, and you're trapped in a room with him and a bunch of other people and nowhere to run, why not rush him?

I've got a snubby .357 that I shoot .38 through at the range. I'm not very good, but it's a honking huge shiny, shiny nickel specimen that screams, "Lookout! Weasel's got a gun!"

58

I also stocked up on high-capacity mags back in 94, though not of my own volition.  I was provided a Ruger Mini-14 as part of the disposition of my mother's estate (long story--my sister was the executor--was and remains to this day a hard-core survivalist).  I'm still waiting for society to break down, tho yesterday's events leave me pretty shaken.  As far as home defense, I've found my Desert Eagle .357 to be both high-powered and intimidating--our cats flee when I chamber a round.  Those Jews know what they're doing when it comes to firearms and comedy.     

Our gunman was not a home-grown, Christianist, gun-toting redneck, nor was he a crazy Islamo-paranoid Koran-beater, nor was he a whitey-hating African studies major--he was a South Korean national majoring in English (?!). 

Not deranged, not lonely, not angry--just evil.  May he rot in Hell forever.  And may I add this:  fuck Korea--pull our troops out now--they're resented by most of the locals anyway.   

59 but if the guy is just picking people off, and you're trapped in a room with him and a bunch of other people and nowhere to run, why not rush him?

One, you are assuming they didn't and weren't shot and killed/wounded in the process. Two, imagine the cenario: You're dozing in a small class, a guy steps into the door and starts firing. Apparantely, he was quite a good shot. I feel sorry for the 75 year old professor who tried to barricade the door while his students fled. Not sure why no one helped him. Then again, like you, I wasn't there. I wasn't facing death. Who am I to say?

60

9mm, .38?  Are .22 pistols good for protection, or are they just plinkers?

If you choose 9mm (semiautos), I recommend that you practice on occasion so that you are comfortable with the mechanics of the gun. .22 is not adequate for protection, but a cheap, fun way to improve your shooting skills.

As I said before, a .38 snub (2-inch barrel) is a great all-around gun. If you want something stronger for home defense, a shotgun, or a small to medium sized .357 is great. It can be loaded with .38, .38+p, or .357 for different levels of recoil or for practice. I believe that .38 is the cheapest ammo after .22s.

A .357 from Ruger will last until your great grandchildren are old enough to shoot. Other good brands are Smith and Wesson and Taurus, though I've had problems with two Taurus revolvers.

61 Not to quash discussion...just to note something.

There was something very refreshing--stark and wonderful--in the reaction to the schoolhouse murders in the Amish community last year. They grieved their dead. They have since moved on, with a little more sorrow perhaps. They have healed.

Contrast that to the reaction here. Just as horrific. Innocent lives snuffed by a lunatic. But all the commentary is about gun control (pro and con), campus security, who to blame, who to sue. This will fester for months.

We could learn something from that little backward community in PA.

62 We could learn something from that little backward community in PA.

Bullshit.

63 Thanks, adolfo.  What happened yesterday really confirmed for me something that I've been thinking about for some time - it seems we have ceded far too much power over our individual safety to others.

It's becoming pretty clear VA Tech made some major mistakes in its response yesterday and failed in its duties to act 'in loco parentis.'  Maybe it's time for society to consider the thought that we all have a responsibility in our own safety and in the safety of our families.

64 It's becoming pretty clear VA Tech made some major mistakes in its response yesterday and failed in its duties to act 'in loco parentis.'

I'm not comfortable laying blame this early.  While the email didn't go out for two hours, was the incident reported on the news? This campus is the size of a town or small city. Everytime there is a homicide, does your city shut down? Sirrens sound? Then again, unlike this campus, citizens are allowed to be armed and defend themselves. If you aren't going to allow people to defend themselves, and there was no way the police could respond to Norris quickly, maybe they do have to sound sirens and lock everyone up. Just hope that the shooter doesn't live down the hall  and is locked down with you.

65 DaveG

Yeah. You're right. The Gun Lobby/ACLU/Tort Reform/VA Legislature/RNC/DNC are the way to go. Maybe we can even get a "Movie of the Week" out of it before the week's up. That'll help.

I wasn't suggesting we roll over, bury the dead, and hope it doesn't happen again, but that we allow the aggrieved their time for comfort and solace before we start trotting out "solutions" from the various lobbying groups might be beneficial.

Bullshit on you.

66 I'm not comfortable laying blame this early.  While the email didn't go out for two hours, was the incident reported on the news? This campus is the size of a town or small city. Everytime there is a homicide, does your city shut down? Sirrens sound? Then again, unlike this campus, citizens are allowed to be armed and defend themselves. If you aren't going to allow people to defend themselves, and there was no way the police could respond to Norris quickly, maybe they do have to sound sirens and lock everyone up. Just hope that the shooter doesn't live down the hall  and is locked down with you.

A fallacious analogy.  Comparing a campus to a small town is appropriate in terms of scale, and that's about it.  A university president has considerable power over what happens on his campus, unlike the mayor of a town.  A full lockdown of the campus after the first shooting would have limited the targets available to Cho - a dorm room full of students can lock themselves in rooms far easier than a classroom full of people.

What concerns me most is the two-hour gap in which the campus knew a gunman was loose and did nothing.

The chorus of criticism is starting on campus, and I think once the mourning and shock fade away, it will be replaced with anger at those who didn't act in those two hours.

The full blame lies with Cho, but the university administration is ultimately responsible for the safety and well-being of its students.

67 Chronicle of Higher Ed link - "After deadly massacre at Virginia Tech, students question university's response."

68

What all the victims in every massacre have in common is that they are defenseless against an armed assailant.

This limits a victim's options in a confined space to run, hide, play dead, or counter attack and highlight one's candidacy as the next priority target.

In the infantry battles of Iraq and Afghanistan, even as good as our soldiers are, there is never a  32/1  kill ratio.

That is because the enemy is armed and shoots back.

George Hennard (October 15, 1956–October 16, 1991) was a mass murderer who claimed twenty-three victims at Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas, USA, in an event that has come to be known as the Luby's massacre.

Suzanna Gratia Hupp's parents were among the 23 killed by Hennard in the attack. Hupp possessed a gun but left it in her car in compliance with laws against carrying a concealed weapon; she felt that, had her gun been on her person, she could have prevented the tragedy or limited the casualties. Hupp has since crusaded successfully for a concealed carry law and was elected to the Texas House of Representatives in 1996.

FROM>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hennard

SEE ALSO>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby%27s_massacre

Hennard did it with just TWO pistols.

#35 Christopher Taylor,

The action on a Mauser p08 'Luger' is called a toggle lock.

Although 19th Century technology, p08s are one of the most accurate pistols ever engineered.  The accuracy is because of the toggle lock and the barrel actually recoils on the receiver and superior ergonomics.

The 9mm ammo can penetrate a car door a 50m and still kill the occupant.  The 'Luger', while popular, is expensive to manufacture and suffers frequent breakdowns due to it's high manufacturing tolerances.

Most p08s have a six shot in-line magazine with the release at the bottom of the pistol grip causing slow mag changes.

69

If not now, when is a good time to discuss political matters with life and death ramifications?  If a tragedy exposes a problem in society, how long should we wait before we start addressing that problem? 

Should we be sensitive about it?  Yes.  Should we embargo the discussion until everyone has closure?  Hell no.  Besides which, the enemies of freedom are already making full use of this incident to brow-beat the public and our politicians into thinking we need more gun control - which, by the way, is the point of Ace's post.

In some ways it would be nice if we could just take the high road and join the discussion after some healing, but here in the real world there is a battle for the minds of the American public and we are in danger of losing it.  We can't afford to cede the crucial first few days to talking heads and politicians with an agenda of banning all private gun ownership.

70

The full blame lies with Cho, but the university administration is ultimately responsible for the safety and well-being of its students.

I see your point and I hate to nitpick, but the students are, or should be, ultimately responsible for their own safety.

71

Slubs, a .22 is a great gun to start with, to learn how to handle a gun.  Light, easy to manage, helps you get over the initial anxiety of firing a weapon (which is perfectly normal - nothing wrong with respecting a gun when you are learning).

 

It's not a good defense weapon, the rounds are too small to be effective.  Some make that argument about 9mm, the trade off being you can typically carry more rounds in a 9.

I prefer a .45 - I don't need as many rounds if I can hit what I'm aiming at, and it's stopping ability is well documented.  Same for a .357.  But sometimes it's just hard to hide 3 pounds of steel - particularly in the summer, so I carry a .38.  Drawback on the .38 is it's not terribly accurate at distances greater than 10 yards.

Whatever you do, practice, get good at it, and gain some confidence.  Be responsible, don't carry with ball ammunition.  Practice with it, but a lead slug can go through your target and hit someone behind him.  I use Glaser safety slugs when I carry.

 

Police can't be everywhere.  They just can't.  I had just moved to this part of Texas in 1991 when Hennard killed 23 people just 20 miles from here.  One responsible, well trained person could have stopped him.  Not to mention making an assailant wonder who's armed and who's not gives you a bit of an advantage.

72 They grieved their dead. They have since moved on, with a little more sorrow perhaps. They have healed.

Red speck must be God. He can see in to the hearts of the families of the Amish victims and has proclaimed them "healed." You have no idea. You have no idea how dysyfunctional they may be after the murders. A "little more sorrow perhaps"? You are a murder victim's family worse nightmare -- the person who tells them to "get over it." Bullshit right back at you, red speck. Or, should we call you God?

73 BTW, if I recall correctly, there were four unarmed peace officers in the restaurant at the time.  They were taking a class and left their guns in the car.

74 Thanks, Dave.  I'm thinking .22 for practice/safety and .45 or .38 for protection.  I'm interested in stopping power.

I see your point and I hate to nitpick, but the students are, or should be, ultimately responsible for their own safety.
Posted by: OU_Gryphon at April 17, 2007 01:04 PM (385l4)

I think you're absolutely correct, but since VTech prided itself on being a 'gun free zone,' that option was taken from students as well.  I predict a lot of students across the country are going to violate that gun ban next semester.

75

Slublog,

RE: in defense of 9mm

If you look at ballistics tables, the terminal performance of 9mm is actually better than .38 specials.  Plus with 9mm you typically get 10 rounds or more.  I wouldn't rule it out too quickly. 

Also, 9mm ammo IS cheaper than 38 special by about 20%.  Might be a slight consideration if you are going to be doing a lot of practice (and I hope you are).

The main reason 9mm has a bad reputation is that its higher muzzle velocitie causes it to overpenetrate if you don't use hollowpoints or frangible bullets.  I could be wrong, but I suspect DIT's reason for carrying a .38 instead of a 9mm is that he likes revolvers and .38 special is meant for revolvers.

76 A full lockdown of the campus after the first shooting would have limited the targets available to Cho - a dorm room full of students can lock themselves in rooms far easier than a classroom full of people.

True. But if a student is not in his dorm room, are you going to require him/her to return to their dorm instead of finding shelter in the nearest campus building? It comes down to, if people want to kill, they can find a way and we are responsible for protecting ourselves.

I always think of Austin. The shooter was taken down by an off duty police officer who heard the news and ran to campus and an armed student.

HotAir is reporting a threat at St. Edwards in Austin. Isn't that where Marcotte went to school?

77 I feel sorry for this guy's family. It appears they run a dry cleaning store, a daughter graduated from Princeton. They seem like the typical hard working immigrant family. What shame he has brought them!

78

OU, didn't mean to disparage the 9mm.  I do think you can get frangible rounds for it as well.  Beretta makes a nice one.   

My preferred carry piece is the .45, but as I mentioned earlier, it's not always as easy to conceal (particularly in summer, with less clothing).  So I sometimes carry the .38.  I do have a 3" .45 that's a little easier to hide than the 1911.

St. Ed's - bomb threat, a note I believe.  Campus is locked down.

79 Daveg:

Screw.

You're not listening. You're the problem. You don't hear any thought that's not reverberating around in your own little mind.

I'm sick of the echo chamber mentality. I'm sick of politicizing every fucking event in life. I don't think this is a an "issue"; it's a tragedy that has far deeper reaching tendrils than passing a concealed-carry law would fix.

How would you like it if your child were among the dead, and instead of offering solace a mere 24 hours afterward, people were more concerned with arranging "No More Guns!" or "More Guns!" marches and legislation--not to benefit you, but to help their pet cause. It makes me sick.

And frankly, I'm glad I'm not God. I've only got 3 kids. If I had 6 billion and they acted the way we do to each other, I'd smite the whole damn planet and move on.

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The Appropriations Committee chairman, Senator Robert C. Byrd, a Democrat from West Virginia, responded with blistering criticism of the administration’s Iraq strategy and warned that his panel would not “rubber stamp” Mr. Bush’s requests for war financing.

“The president and his supporters claim that we’re now finally on the cusp of progress and that we must continue to stay the course,” Mr. Byrd said. “I’ve heard that before. Call me a skeptic, but we have heard this tune before. Yes, haven’t we?”

Antiwar protesters in the hearing room responded with cries of “Yes! Yes!”

Mr. Byrd later had the room cleared of protesters after they disrupted an answer by Gen. Peter Pace, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Mr. Gates said $11 billion of the requested money was for building 15,000 heavily armored vehicles designed to better withstand the roadside bombs that cause the majority of American casualties in Iraq.

The Pentagon also seeks $9 billion to repair and refit American equipment stocks. The administration is also requesting $1 billion to train Iraqi security forces, bringing the total 2008 request for training funds to $5.7 billion.

But Mr. Gates said that American troops, “under some of the most trying conditions, have done far more than what was asked of them, and far more than what was expected.”

 

 

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