Salon: 9/11 Trutherism Is Better Than Other Conspiracy Theories, Because It All Flows From One Unassailable Scientific Fact:
Fire.
Can't.
Melt.
Steel.

They took the post down -- but Twitchy has some screencaps and this "money graf:"

What concerns me about the repudiation of the [Sandy Hook conspiracy theorists] is that the 9/11 Truthers are being tarred with the same “crackpot” brush. Yes, many of the September Eleventh conspiracy theories are implausible, and too often veer, as conspiracy theories unfortunately tend to do, toward the anti-Semitic. But unlike with Sandy Hook, 9/11 conspiracy theories flow from a scientific fact: whatever the 9/11 Commission Report might claim, fire generated by burning jet fuel is not hot enough to melt steel. As with JFK’s “Magic Bullet,” the official version asks us to pretend that the laws of physics do not exist. This opens the door for alternative versions, however ridiculous, that must at least be considered...

Ahem.

Look, I don't mean to sound like a smarty-pants here, but here's a scientific fact this ignoramuses want to check out:

Many solids change suddenly into liquids as they hit their melting point. Water ice, for example.

But water ice is just one kind of solid. There is an entire class of elements -- we call these "metals" (and no I'm not trying to be silly-- they're really called "metals") which change from solid to liquid gradually and gracefully, rather than abruptly.

There is a sharp distinction between water ice and water liquid -- the things have entirely different properties. But metals transition slowly as heat as applied. Metals do not suddenly go from a perfect crystalline solid to a perfect amorphous liquid as water does.

Rather, at high temperatures well short of their actual melting point, they slowly begin losing some properties of a solid and start gaining some properties of a liquid.

For example: You can't bend ice. Ice does not bend. Ice breaks.

But you can bend metal. Metal is deformable, without actually breaking.

And as metal gets hotter, it becomes more and more deformable. It begins losing its rigid, fully-solid aspect and gains a more... well, let me put this in terms Salon can understand: Metal becomes bi-statal, or liquid-curious.

This is because metal atoms are not held together in a rigid crystal structure, in which one atom forms a bond with the next, as in water ice, but rather some kind of (and I admit my memory fails me) loose system in which electrons are shared like a river and one atom can float gracefully past the next, if external force or heat is applied.

I don't know why I have to explain this. It's been explained six thousand times before. The "melting point" of steel -- whatever it is, say 4000 C -- is the point at which steel becomes a pool of red-hot liquid.

But for "metals," that "melting point" is a sliding scale -- at 800 C, it becomes more pliant, and begins to sag and lose integrity, at 1200 it actually starts drooping if there is weight on it, at 1600 it might start drooping and buckling under its own weight, etc.

There are a lot of people who suddenly think they're Chemical Engineers but never got round to the part of the chemistry textbook -- and it's like chapter 4, not chapter 40 -- that explains that metals have all sorts of special properties, including, inter alia, conductivity, deformability, and, especial, gradual transition between solid and liquid forms.

You don't even have to work with metal to understand this: a perfectly common substance, called glass, has this same "liquid crystal" property, and will also buckle, warp, bend, droop, and deform when heat is applied, long before it actually pools into a liquid.

But carry on, Salon. You're... You're what you are. You're what you always have been: Dumb and arrogantly so.

I look forward to all the media coverage which will surely flow from this recent discovery, that whole swathes of the Dumb Left are prone to paranoid and ignorant conspiracy theories, and are also Anti-Science.

Any moment now. I can hear the water churning behind the floodgates.

Rebuttal:

Have you ever worked in the metallurgy profession, Ace? That's what I thought.

-- Terry Moran

Cleaning Up: I kept using the term "deformable" because, try as I might, I could not recall the correct terms.

The correct terms are "malleability" (capability to bend or deform to external force, rather than breaking and shattering) and "plasticity" (capability of slowly, gradually transitioning between solid and liquid). Metals have both; plastics and glass, for example, have only the latter. Glass and plastics are plastic, but not very malleable.

I think that's the proper chemical terminology, anyway.

Not to blow Salon's mind too much, but this property of "plasticity" is so common in the world that we actually named long-chain carbon molecules with highly plastic properties "plastic."

More Wit:

The Periodic Table is a living breathing document with emanations and penumbras

-- Jones in CO


Posted by: Ace at 03:58 PM



Comments

1 Has that Moby exposing the NBC news report from Dec 15 claiming the ar wasn't usedbeen here today?

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 23, 2013 03:47 PM (t06LC)

2 Fuck. I wasted my First!

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 23, 2013 03:47 PM (t06LC)

3 you can't cook a steak with paper and lighter fuel either, but you sure as hell can start a fire that'll cook a steak with paper and lighter fuel. Stupid people are stupid.

Posted by: major major major major at January 23, 2013 03:48 PM (utCAk)

4
But you can bend metal. Metal is deformable


With. my. mind.

Posted by: Uri Geller at January 23, 2013 03:48 PM (ZO/UQ)

5
"You don't even have to work with metal to understand this: a perfectly common substance, called glass, has this same "liquid crystal" property, and will also buckle, warp, bend, droop, and deform when heat is applied, long before it actually pools into a liquid."

Most plastics will also do the same thing, as anyone who's had to work with plastic tank barrels (15mm wargamer here) or similar slender plastic objects is very much aware. Just leaving thin plastics in a car on a hot day is sometimes enough to permanently bend them.

Posted by: junior at January 23, 2013 03:48 PM (UWFpX)

6 I propose renaming this post to Stand back: I'm going to try SCIENCE, unlike the inbred superstitious shits at Salon, and it'll be perfect.

Posted by: Kinley Ardal at January 23, 2013 03:48 PM (xeWre)

7 If fire doesn't "melt" metal, then how do they think jewelry (and swords and other metal stuff) is made?

Posted by: Watcher at January 23, 2013 03:48 PM (RQfiQ)

8 Sometimes you need to carry an Air Sick bag in your pocket.

Posted by: Clemenza at January 23, 2013 03:48 PM (x59Gv)

9 They dont care their job is to lie to people. Do you remember the 911 truthers on TV being treated with the blatant disrespect that the Birther morons were treated with? Do you remember Truthers being held up to every Republican and compared, specifically so the Republican would denounce them?

They liked the Truthers, the entire Democrat party did. Why else would Al fucking Gore give speeches saying "Bush BETRAYED THIS COUNTRY"? Why else would the right literally have to push itself into a frothing rage for one of them like Rosie Odonnel to be fired for yelling it out on her show? They liked them, they wanted them there, and they were more than willing to push crazy lies because it hurt a Republican president....the key word is Republican.

Posted by: Mr. Pink at January 23, 2013 03:48 PM (++kZl)

10
>>But you can bend metal.

Fuckin' a!

Posted by: Floyd Rose at January 23, 2013 03:49 PM (ZO/UQ)

11 fire generated by burning jet fuel is not hot enough to melt steel.


It doesn't have to melt the steel. There was already enough structural damage to the building from the impact to weaken the corner. Add to that, the winds fueling the fire like a bellow. I can't remember how long it took, but it seemed like over an hour for the floors above the impact points to collapse. Once they did, there was no way the lower floors would hold that weight crashing down on them like that.

Posted by: EC at January 23, 2013 03:50 PM (GQ8sn)

12 21st century proggs can't understand things that people understood (in places of the world that are considered "developing" today) 3000 years ago.

But we're the stupid knuckle-draggers.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at January 23, 2013 03:50 PM (ZKzrr)

13 Stay away from the brown acid. Repeat, stay away from the brown acid.

Posted by: WalrusRex at January 23, 2013 03:50 PM (Hx5uv)

14 Typo in the headline

Posted by: Fluffy, typologies at January 23, 2013 03:50 PM (j0jZH)

15 Iron is a marvelous element. Just saying. You can melt it, alloy it, cast it, machine it, change it's hardness by tempering. You could spend a lifetime just playing around with it. All at temperatures and pressures that the normal person can deal with.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 23, 2013 03:51 PM (evdj2)

16 Lee Harvey Oswald was an expert marksman and got off a couple of very accurate shots. He was also a commie. CASE CLOSED.

And fire does melt steel. Especially when the jet fuel ignites everything else around it into an inferno of several thousand degrees.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at January 23, 2013 03:51 PM (XkWWK)

17 shhh. This is one of the prog stations of the cross

Posted by: thunderb at January 23, 2013 03:51 PM (Dnbau)

18 If fire doesn't "melt" metal, then how do they think jewelry (and swords and other metal stuff) is made?

Same way they think everything else is made and gets to their boutiques: Magic and exploitation.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at January 23, 2013 03:51 PM (ZKzrr)

19
7If fire doesn't "melt" metal, then how do they think jewelry (and swords and other metal stuff) is made?

I guess these idiots figure that steel I-beams are mined out of the ground...ready to use.
You just have to know where to dig for them.

Posted by: wheatie at January 23, 2013 03:51 PM (fH4X9)

20 "If fire doesn't "melt" metal, then how do they think jewelry (and swords and other metal stuff) is made?"

Just roll it into a tube, like with modeling clay, to soften it. That's how I made the slug barrell for my 12 gauge.

Posted by: Pug Mahon at January 23, 2013 03:51 PM (K+mtQ)

21 well, let me put this in terms Salon can understand: Metal becomes bi-statal, or liquid-curious.

---

I LOL'ed.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 23, 2013 03:51 PM (e0xKF)

22 I happen to possess something that has the curious property of being unbendable when near Kate Upton. At least that is my scientific theory. I would like a grant and Ms. Upton at my disposal to see if that is true.

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 23, 2013 03:51 PM (t06LC)

23 >>it might start drooping and buckling under its own weight

Leaving aside any easy jokes here, these people need to be educated about complex theories of horseshoe making.

Posted by: Mama AJ at January 23, 2013 03:51 PM (SUKHu)

24 Some of my Family came down and sacked and raped Rome with early metal...

Posted by: Clemenza at January 23, 2013 03:51 PM (x59Gv)

25 >>>With. my. mind.

and not just a gag: I believe his method was to bend the spoon so many times it became extremely weak, such that the mere application of body *HEAT* (through his fingertips) was enough to finish the job and cause it to lose all structural integrity at the weak point.

Posted by: ace at January 23, 2013 03:51 PM (LCRYB)

26 Yeah. You can't melt it or do bendy stuff with it. That's why it's STEEL.

Posted by: Blacksmith's Local 001 at January 23, 2013 03:51 PM (VndSC)

27 Fire.
Can't.
Melt.
Steel.


Thermite.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 23, 2013 03:51 PM (80/E+)

28
Charcoal can get metal up to critical heat quite easily - all you need is an air blast. I can do this in my back yard, with a fairly simple device constructed out of plywood, called a bellows, and a small structure made of clay, called a forge. not exactly cutting-edge technology, nor obscure.
Nor is it an abscure fact that large fires can create their own air blast - a firestorm.

Posted by: Grey Fox at January 23, 2013 03:52 PM (hJesl)

29 More wizardry from the party of science.

Posted by: brak at January 23, 2013 03:52 PM (iEoiA)

30 But ACE-ignore the possibility of metal being deformed by constant heat and what you have is a world of possibilities. Get with the program.

Posted by: CozMark at January 23, 2013 03:52 PM (nDeB2)

31 That's right! Plus staph is no laugh! Lez is no gez!

Posted by: Rosie O'donnell PhD at January 23, 2013 03:52 PM (msPO3)

32 I remember Charlie Sheen suddenly becoming an explosive demolitions expert.

"The way the building collapsed looked exactly like a controlled demolition".

Posted by: EC at January 23, 2013 03:52 PM (GQ8sn)

33 Blacksmithing is racist!!1!

Posted by: Salon Riter, what rites at Salon at January 23, 2013 03:52 PM (SUKHu)

34
or 'liquid-curious'.

This is going to lead to a google search.
A google search that doesn't end well.

Posted by: garrett at January 23, 2013 03:52 PM (ZO/UQ)

35 And fire does melt steel. Especially when the jet fuel ignites everything else around it into an inferno of several thousand degrees.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at January 23, 2013 03:51 PM (XkWWK)

And its under load, like say, I don't know, holding up a building.

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 23, 2013 03:52 PM (t06LC)

36 Metal becomes bi-statal, or liquid-curious.

----

Brilliant

Posted by: gigg at January 23, 2013 03:52 PM (41VCE)

37 My husband worked in the steel industry for a while.

He assures me that there are steel farms in the midwest where different shapes and sizes are harvested. Because indeed, fire can't melt steel.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at January 23, 2013 03:52 PM (UOM48)

38 >>>Most plastics will also do the same thing, as anyone who's had to work with plastic tank barrels (15mm wargamer here) or similar slender plastic objects is very much aware. Just leaving thin plastics in a car on a hot day is sometimes enough to permanently bend them.

I think we can extrapolate that this is not a very rare physical property at all and these Rocket Scientists should probably be familiar with it.

In fact, the word for this is in fact "plasticity," and it's why plastics (plastic long chain carbons I think) are called plastics.

Posted by: ace at January 23, 2013 03:53 PM (LCRYB)

39 SCIENCE!!!11!!!111!!1!

Posted by: Alec Leamas at January 23, 2013 03:53 PM (mg08E)

40 Remington Steele used to make women melt.

Posted by: Roy at January 23, 2013 03:53 PM (VndSC)

41 36 Metal becomes bi-statal, or liquid-curious.

----

Brilliant

---

"Much like a coed with enough alcohol, metal will become liquid-curious with enough heat."

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 23, 2013 03:54 PM (e0xKF)

42 well, let me put this in terms Salon can understand: Metal becomes bi-statal, or liquid-curious.

---

I LOL'ed.


Me too. That's primo stuff right there.

Posted by: AmishDude at January 23, 2013 03:54 PM (T0NGe)

43 >>And as metal gets hotter, it becomes more and more deformable. It begins losing its rigid, fully-solid aspect and gains a more.

More simply put, steel gets weaker under high temperatures, and can no longer support as much weight.

Anyway, this whole line of argument is a waste of time, because you can't use logic to argue someone out of a position they didn't come to by logic, and its pretty damn clear that "trutherism" isn't a logical position.

If you're inclined to believe that the Federal gov't runs shadowy consipracies to kill its own, then you're going to believe that regardless of the physical evidence.

Posted by: looking closely at January 23, 2013 03:55 PM (6Q9g2)

44 Just plain ugly.

And yet you can't quit us. Embrace your suckage, dudette.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 23, 2013 03:55 PM (evdj2)

45 More wizardry from the party of science.

Science is so simple, wingnuts. If you can find a scientist who agrees with you, then what you do is scientific.

Posted by: AmishDude at January 23, 2013 03:55 PM (T0NGe)

46
"Fire.

Can't.

Melt.

Steel."

I wish someone would tell Insurance Companies this.
Those fuckers think that the steel girders in a 'steel-built' home are subject to warping in a fire...and adjust their premiums accordingly.

Posted by: wheatie at January 23, 2013 03:55 PM (fH4X9)

47 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at January 23, 2013 03:55 PM (/eBe8)

48 With. my. mind.

and not just a gag: I believe his method was to bend the spoon so many times it became extremely weak, such that the mere application of body *HEAT* (through his fingertips) was enough to finish the job and cause it to lose all structural integrity at the weak point.


The Amazing Kreskin. Johhny Carson Show. Circa '70's.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 23, 2013 03:55 PM (80/E+)

49 Wait, did I faux pas?

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 23, 2013 03:55 PM (evdj2)

50
I work in the steel industry. These people are fucking morons.

Posted by: Ben at January 23, 2013 03:56 PM (C2Y4l)

51 I suggest everyone watch/rent/buy the great parody film, 'The Lost Skeleton of Cadavera'. In it, scientist Dr. Paul Armstrong (played by Larry Blamire), exclaims to his wife, 'Not now, Betty. I'm DOING SCIENCE!'.

Looks like Salon is DOING SCIENCE again. Heaven help us all.

Posted by: troyriser at January 23, 2013 03:56 PM (vtiE6)

52 I can't take all this stress!!!1!!!

Posted by: hot metal creaking at January 23, 2013 03:56 PM (ORGYc)

53 Two words: Crystal Lattice.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 23, 2013 03:56 PM (evdj2)

54 I've been through a number of oil fires. Fire will melt, distort, deform, and mangle sheet metal, steel I-beams, steel pipe of all sizes, pumps, compressors, tanks, and distillation columns.
There's much more involved than combustion temperatures.

Posted by: wisenheimer at January 23, 2013 03:56 PM (eYx/w)

55 or 'liquid-curious'.

This is going to lead to a google search. A google search that doesn't end well.

It will end at Valu-Rite. Aisle 13.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 23, 2013 03:57 PM (80/E+)

56 If you're inclined to believe that the Federal gov't runs shadowy consipracies to kill its own, then you're going to believe that regardless of the physical evidence.

---

And a person like myself who thinks the government is too incompetent to run a brothel amuses himself by making fun of people who think a government is coherent enough to pull this off.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 23, 2013 03:57 PM (e0xKF)

57 "Bi- statal or liquid curious"

Which are you?

I think I'm liquid curious.

Posted by: L, elle at January 23, 2013 03:57 PM (0PiQ4)

58 These people are so stupid it hurts to contemplate, and one should bear it in mind when they spout AGW pslams.

Fire can and indeed does become malleable and lose load bearing and tensile strength when pressure is applied with sub boiling point heat.

This paradigm was deduced by human beings thousands of years ago in the goddamned copper age.

Thank you, and now back to your regularly scheduled posting.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 23, 2013 03:57 PM (LRFds)

59 It will end at Valu-Rite. Aisle 13.

It's like a singularity.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 23, 2013 03:57 PM (evdj2)

60 37 My husband worked in the steel industry for a while.

He assures me that there are steel farms in the midwest where different shapes and sizes are harvested. Because indeed, fire can't melt steel.
Posted by: Jane D'oh at January 23, 2013 03:52 PM (UOM4


----------------
Can you get me some steel shrubberies? I need some ball bearings, and I understand those only from from the shrubs. I already have a tree for all my steel beam needs.

Posted by: gigg at January 23, 2013 03:58 PM (41VCE)

61 these geniuses should go to Venice and watch the 'glass blowers' turn colored rods of melting glass into every possible shape


or they could just kill themselves ( just a thought )

Posted by: Willy in Williamsburg at January 23, 2013 03:58 PM (Dll6b)

62 I so loved being in 'Remington Steele' ... that and 'Battle of the Network Stars'. Howard Cosell was a freak in bed lemme tellya!

Posted by: Stephanie Zimbalist at January 23, 2013 03:58 PM (msPO3)

63 Posted by: ace at January 23, 2013 03:53 PM (LCRYB)

"Plasticity" is the tendency to deform under load. I don't remember if it defines permanent deformation, but in this case it doesn't matter.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at January 23, 2013 03:58 PM (GsoHv)

64 The burning "jet fuel can't melt steel" argument, also tends to disregard the damage done by the actual impact of the jet (ie an event both caught on video-tape and widely seen by eyewitnesses).


Posted by: looking closely at January 23, 2013 03:58 PM (6Q9g2)

65 and not just a gag: I believe his method was to bend the spoon so many
times it became extremely weak, such that the mere application of body
*HEAT* (through his fingertips) was enough to finish the job and cause
it to lose all structural integrity at the weak point.


Nope, it was even simpler than that. So simple, one could be forgiven feeling stupid after wondering how he did it.

He just bent the spoon before performing the trick, but held it at an angle such that you couldn't easily see it was bent. As he rubbed the spoon, he slowly rotated it until the pre-existing bend could be seen.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 23, 2013 03:58 PM (SY2Kh)

66 Have you ever worked in the metallurgy profession, Ace? That's what I thought.

Posted by: Terry Moran at January 23, 2013 03:58 PM (U9S0G)

67 was no way the lower floors would hold that weight crashing down on them like that.
Posted by: EC at January 23, 2013 03:50 PM (GQ8sn)

Absolutely.

Also, check out how planes vaporize when they hit something solid at speed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q35xHzjxB0

Posted by: Invictus at January 23, 2013 03:58 PM (OQpzc)

68 Love this one at Twitchy:

Workplace violence. It helps with teambuilding. #salonpitches

Posted by: Jane D'oh at January 23, 2013 03:58 PM (UOM48)

69 Fire us too much and too quickly and we start drooping--even the ones made in Italy!

Posted by: 18th & 19th century cannons at January 23, 2013 03:58 PM (ORGYc)

70
I'd love the people at Salon to school us on the black-art of weldingas their next expose.

Posted by: garrett at January 23, 2013 03:59 PM (ZO/UQ)

71 If you're making the Truthers look bad you're looney, or its a sign of the apocalypse, or it's a conspiracy.

Posted by: DaveA at January 23, 2013 03:59 PM (hOlQL)

72 I was promised there would be no chemistry on this blog.

Posted by: rickl at January 23, 2013 03:59 PM (zoehZ)

73 Wait, did I faux pas?

Pics or it didn't happen.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 23, 2013 03:59 PM (80/E+)

74 Fire can't melt steel???

Posted by: your local sword-maker at January 23, 2013 03:59 PM (Dll6b)

75 Can you get me some steel shrubberies? I need some ball bearings, and I understand those only from from the shrubs. I already have a tree for all my steel beam needs.

---

Someone go get me my ball-bearings. I need to look into a missing quart of strawberries.

Posted by: Phillip Francis Queeg at January 23, 2013 03:59 PM (e0xKF)

76 But you can bend metal. Metal is deformable, without actually breaking.
-
I hate to blow your mind, Ace, but the property of metal being malleable is know as "plasticity". Try telling a troofer that metal is plastic.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at January 23, 2013 04:00 PM (3ETnh)

77 The ancient Riddle of Steel.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at January 23, 2013 04:00 PM (bZKG0)

78 >>>He just bent the spoon before performing the trick, but held it at an angle such that you couldn't easily see it was bent. As he rubbed the spoon, he slowly rotated it until the pre-existing bend could be seen.

well.... wait. That sounds neat but I'm pretty sure I've seen the cup of the spoon droop down and fall off.

So I don't think you're right. That might have been one technique for one version of the trick, a simple bend, but when he got the cup of the spoon to droop completely over the shaft, that was a different technique.

Posted by: ace at January 23, 2013 04:00 PM (LCRYB)

79 Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Posted by: Ulysses Greg Olear at January 23, 2013 04:00 PM (evdj2)

80
PLASTIC FANTASTIC LOVER

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL7HiGD0JcQ

Posted by: Jefferson Airplane at January 23, 2013 04:00 PM (ZO/UQ)

81 Apparently the truthers think all metal was forged in Mt.Doom in Mordor.

Posted by: Ben at January 23, 2013 04:01 PM (C2Y4l)

82 77 The ancient Riddle of Steel.

---

Ah. That must have been in my younger days.

Posted by: Thulsa Doom at January 23, 2013 04:01 PM (e0xKF)

83 But, But, I thought we were the ones who were scientifically illiterate!

Posted by: DALE THE WITLESS PEASANT at January 23, 2013 04:01 PM (FxBCF)

84 Nice summation by the way Ace, you used to be able to be briefed in on these things by an individual called "a father" when he was having you help him weld, or work at fabricating a replacement part for a vehicle or tractor.


This "father" would let you hold a piece of material for him with "gloves" and hammer the heated metal.

When a subject we'll call "a fucking ten year old" would ask a question like "why can it bend now" your "father" would say "the torch generates heat and when you hit it under heat the pressure bends the metal and allows you to form a new fender."

Fuck these people make money to write this shit, and the public buys it well enough to be muddled.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 23, 2013 04:01 PM (LRFds)

85 BTW, Salon's really on today. Today saw the "Yes, life begins at conception, kill 'em anyway" article.

Posted by: AmishDude at January 23, 2013 04:01 PM (T0NGe)

86 >>>I hate to blow your mind, Ace, but the property of metal being malleable is know as "plasticity". Try telling a troofer that metal is plastic.

I put that in a comment above.

One word I forgot -- kept trying to remember it, failed - was malleability.

Posted by: ace at January 23, 2013 04:01 PM (LCRYB)

87 why are we so anti-science!!

Posted by: thunderb at January 23, 2013 04:01 PM (Dnbau)

88
I will also add that it is not difficult, with coal or charcoal and an air source, to get steel hot enough that the carbon starts to burn out of it. Slightly less hot, it gets liquid enough to fuse two pieces into one, as long as they are clean.
Idiots. As someone said above, 3000 year old technology and the reality-based community, the one that celebrates its commitment to science, cannot grasp it.

Posted by: Grey Fox at January 23, 2013 04:01 PM (hJesl)

89
when he got the cup of the spoon to droop completely over the shaft, that was a different technique

Indeed.

Posted by: Reggie Love at January 23, 2013 04:01 PM (ZO/UQ)

90 Small thin amounts of metal can actually be burned by fairly weak flames.
See: lighting steal wool with a Bic lighter. It's also quite fun.

Having said that, computers are full of metal in about this size in many places.
It also entirely possible (probable) that the electronics (and wiring) caught fire and burned hotter than the jet fuel alone ever did.

Not that I feel the need to defend against this theory, it's just an interesting bit of science.

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at January 23, 2013 04:02 PM (W8k4K)

91 The most "seemingly arrogant but probably absolutely true statement" I'll make this month:

I've forgotten more about mechanics of materials than the entire staff of Salon ever knew.

Posted by: K. at January 23, 2013 04:02 PM (Pm0Xy)

92 85
BTW, Salon's really on today. Today saw the "Yes, life begins at conception, kill 'em anyway" article.




Dear Lord. Really? My sister posts there.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at January 23, 2013 04:02 PM (UOM48)

93 I stand unconvinced. Scientifically speaking, the only thing that could have melted the steel in the World Trade Center is the molten lava of an active volcano. We're investigating the possibility that an underground pipeline was built by Hallbutiron from Mauna Kea to New York before 9/11. And by investigating, I mean blaming the United States for 9/11 while dismissing reams of contrary evidence.

Posted by: Alec Leamas at January 23, 2013 04:02 PM (mg08E)

94 or liquid-curious.


You just made me swallow my gum when I started choking with laughter. Ow.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 23, 2013 04:02 PM (VtjlW)

95 Okay, that's done. So, did Lanza use the AR15 or not?

Posted by: Invictus at January 23, 2013 04:02 PM (OQpzc)

96 It did not actually melt the steel. The impact of the aircraft knocked the fire retardant covering off the steel and the clips holding the girders supporting the floors.


Those clips had been recognized as a weak point early on. As the fire burned and got hotter the clips began to distort elastically.


When they distorted enough the floor collapsed onto the floor beneath it. The additional weight caused that floor to collapse as well and this created a chain reaction all the way down.



If those a jet like that had crashed into the Empire State building which used a riveted construction instead of these clips it probably would have survived long enough to put the fire out.

Posted by: Vic at January 23, 2013 04:03 PM (53z96)

97 if metal doesn't melt then how are all the guns made? Are there gun farms? Gun harvesting? Where does ammo come from?

Posted by: thunderb at January 23, 2013 04:03 PM (Dnbau)

98 Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at January 23, 2013 04:03 PM (sftcY)

99 Off to find the'Secret of Morning Wood' episode of Beavis and Butthead.

Posted by: garrett at January 23, 2013 04:03 PM (ZO/UQ)

100 I do not know if this was mentioned, but in my geology class during the glaciation section we learned that ice can indeed bend and 'flow'. It just needs to be over a mile thick.

Posted by: CUS at January 23, 2013 04:03 PM (84pE9)

101 why are we so anti-science!!

Science IS religion to these people.

Science is something to be pronounced and to be believed in.

Posted by: AmishDude at January 23, 2013 04:03 PM (T0NGe)

102 ASSAULT WEAPONS DID 9/11!

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at January 23, 2013 04:03 PM (bZKG0)

103 You didn't melt that steel by yourself.

Posted by: Barry at January 23, 2013 04:03 PM (2sEUb)

104 76 Vashta Narada,

For real fun try explaining to them that steel can also enter a plasmatic state if magnetic considerations create a pinch bottle effect and hold it in state.

We really need to free our kids from these bastards indoctrination labs and hire former soviet republic teachers they are less harmful and likely less communist.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 23, 2013 04:03 PM (LRFds)

105 I've forgotten more about mechanics of materials than the entire staff of Salon ever knew.

---

They're knowledgeable in the field of fluid dynamics, mainly those involving high-velocity liquids and a semi-rigid, spongy appendage.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 23, 2013 04:04 PM (e0xKF)

106 My soldering iron works by magic!

Posted by: Roy at January 23, 2013 04:04 PM (VndSC)

107 Many people have their nerves of steel bent when they witness a horrific fire.

Posted by: Deli LLama at January 23, 2013 04:04 PM (lGu1O)

108 Ace, you stupid retard. You would understand everything perfectly if you had just gone to J school!

Posted by: Truman North, now at 25% battery life at January 23, 2013 04:04 PM (HX9fK)

109
"Metal becomes bi-statal, or liquid-curious."
Epic, quote of the day.
I'm an engineer, not chemical (or mechanical), but know enough about this to poke holes in things. A relative of mine is a structural engineer. Inone of his college classes, before 9/11 mind you, they studied bad structural engineering designs. The World Trade Center was on their list, and it was actually hypothesized in class that impact from an airplane would bring the building down. And this wasn't even considering the impact of weakening of steel members due to intense fire. Engineering community knew about this building long before 9/11.
Now, there are photos from the WTC that show molten pools of steel that are in liquid form days after the towers collapsed. And this is interesting. It's likely though that natural accelerants in the building combined with insulating effect from the rubble allowed this to happen. It's really the only thing possible.
What sure as hell doesn't make any sense though is a demolition crew wiring a building used by hundreds of thousands of people without anybody noticing them. This is a huge operation that takes days or weeks and a lot of man hours. If the government wanted a trumped up justification for war, why not just place a really big bomb in a stadium somewhere? One guy delivering a bomb. Instead they do this impossible thing that requires a whole damn movie crew to pull off. Uh huh. And then they also created a very real terrorist organization to claim responsibility for the whole thing. Uh huh. And who are all these people we're fighting in Afghanistan, is that just a movie crew too? These fools are complete nut jobs, nobearing with the real worl.

Posted by: Andrew at January 23, 2013 04:04 PM (HS3dy)

110 If only they had the technology to deform metal in the old west, horses could have had metal shoes instead of prada ones.

Posted by: Dirks Strewn at January 23, 2013 04:04 PM (VLifP)

111 25 Ace,

Uri Geller used to bend a spoon back and forth until either it was already broken or so weak it was nearly broken and hanging by the proverbial thread. Then he'd grasp it at the weak point and could "bend" it just by applying or releasing pressure with his fingertips.

It wasn't specifically a trick of heat, but just of cumulative mechanical damage to the metal from repeated bending. This kind of thing is called "metal fatigue". Although heat from internal friction during bending is a contributing factor, more important is just damage to the internal crystalline structure of the metal.

Anyway, one would think that. . .for example. . .a jet aircraft smashing into the side of building designed only to accomodate vertical force (not horizontal) might also cause "metal fatigue". . .but that requires critical thinking.

Posted by: looking closely at January 23, 2013 04:04 PM (6Q9g2)

112 I bet a discussion of magnetic induction heating would absolutely blow these people's minds. It's sorcery!

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 23, 2013 04:05 PM (evdj2)

113 Fire can't melt steel, but Global Warming can.

Posted by: Roy at January 23, 2013 04:05 PM (VndSC)

114 Truth is not important. Keeping the haters hating us is important. Not much else to be said about it.

Posted by: Aaron at January 23, 2013 04:05 PM (Tlix5)

115
AVENGE ME!!!

Posted by: Rosie O'Donnell at January 23, 2013 04:05 PM (sftcY)

116 Aside from abject stupidity the other thing I've noticed in 9-11 truthers is a desire to blame da Jooooz. Not that I'm any kind of expert on these idiots but the "Israel did 9/11" crap frequently appears with "fire can't melt steel" and "it was SUPER THERMITE" which is undetectable by known science blah blah blah
And naturally anyone of Hebraic ancestry is part of the Jooooo conspiracy. Fucking leftist loons

Posted by: Lurkasaurus at January 23, 2013 04:05 PM (FkupK)

117 OT/

I only wanted one Classic Chix Sandwich from Burger King, but they offered me a second one for free. Now I feel bloated and tired.

Posted by: Serious Cat at January 23, 2013 04:05 PM (UypUQ)

118 I love how the Salon link now goes to a poll about "poll trutherism." Little bitches can't even admit they screwed up.

Posted by: Kensington at January 23, 2013 04:05 PM (H84UO)

119 101 Amish Dude,

Their understanding of science and scientific method is akin to a cargo cultists grasp of economics and means of production as expressed by Smith.

They are the antithesis of what made the dawn of science beautiful.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 23, 2013 04:05 PM (LRFds)

120 If you recall your Material Science class sophomore year.... oh, you didn't have materials science in your womyn's studies curriculum

One could argue that at 60+ stories of the ground, (and multiple stories above) the elevator shafts and stairwells are acting as chimneys, creating a draft and sucking in lots of O2 for the fire, creating a natural form of Bessemer process

Posted by: phreshone at January 23, 2013 04:05 PM (0SXI6)

121 Small thin amounts of metal can actually be burned by fairly weak flames.
See: lighting steal wool with a Bic lighter. It's also quite fun.


Try doing it with a 9v battery. Good times.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 23, 2013 04:05 PM (80/E+)

122 Don't these people ever give up

Posted by: Jones in CO at January 23, 2013 04:06 PM (8sCoq)

123 if metal doesn't melt then how are all the guns made? Are there gun farms? Gun harvesting? Where does ammo come from?
Posted by: thunderb at January 23, 2013 04:03 PM (Dnbau)

Satan. He forges them in the pits of hell. Because guns are evil, and when they are not happily kiling on their own, the demons forged in the steel drive ordinary people to kill. Liberal science.

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 23, 2013 04:06 PM (t06LC)

124 You can't burn steel, which is why we fireproof it.

Ipso fucto, winning!

Posted by: t-bird at January 23, 2013 04:06 PM (FcR7P)

125 Can I share my pet peeve? I call him Jasper...

We, the Right, are waaaaay too tolerant about JFK conspiracies. The iconic liberal president was gunned down by a left-wing extremist, but we've allowed the Left to twist the tale pretty much inside out. Sometimes conservatives are complicit.

JFK was assassinated by a left-wing extremist. Left-wing extremists exist. The notion of a “magic bullet” was discredited years ago. Those who are still in denial are crackpots or self-deluded in the service of their politics.

Posted by: CJ at January 23, 2013 04:06 PM (9KqcB)

126 >>>I do not know if this was mentioned, but in my geology class during the glaciation section we learned that ice can indeed bend and 'flow'. It just needs to be over a mile thick.

Interesting, but I would bet that's because under sufficient pressure ice is compacted to the point it is no longer the common water ice we know, but an ice with a different type of bonding -- Ice I, Ice II, etc. Like in Cat's Cradle, but it's real. (Except there is no Ice IX, of course, but the basic idea is real.)

Posted by: ace at January 23, 2013 04:06 PM (LCRYB)

127 Gun harvesting? Where does ammo come from?
Posted by: thunderb at January 23, 2013 04:03 PM (Dnbau)

When lead, copper, brass and smokeless powder really love each other...

Posted by: Invictus at January 23, 2013 04:06 PM (OQpzc)

128 were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened
circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?


I did indeed take a Materials Science course as part of my degree.

Because I like to break things.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at January 23, 2013 04:06 PM (ZKzrr)

129 9/11 "Truthers" are nothing more than a bunch of bored, paranoid
whackjobs who have way too much time on their hands. Keep in mind that
these are the same people who mocked Bush II for being one of the
dumbest presidents in history, yet they also believe that he somehow
managed to come up with this massive government conspiracy? It makes no
sense. But it does make me laugh whenever one group of conspiracy
theorists tries to claim that their conspiracy theory isn't as crazy as
other conspiracy theories that other people believe in. To me, 9/11
Truthers are just as crazy as birthers, Sandy Hook Truthers,
NWO/Illuminati believers, etc.

Posted by: thatonepersonguy at January 23, 2013 04:06 PM (QWMvW)

130 Oh, and 41% of Democrats are 'Young-Earth' Creationists.

I'm laughing at the 'superior intellects'!

Posted by: Brother Cavil, Meadow Party 2016 at January 23, 2013 04:06 PM (GBXon)

131 Fuck you, Rebuttal.

How many goddam morons does it take before the country becomes liquid-curious and collapses?

Posted by: El Cid at January 23, 2013 04:07 PM (IvvrO)

132
Here ya go: http://education.jlab.org/qa/meltingpoint_01.html

Many sites refer to the difference in the melting point of steel and the burning temperature of jet fuel as proof that the World Trade Center could not have fallen from the aircraft fires. What those authors fail to note is that while steel melts at around 1,370°C (2500°F) it begins to lose its strength at a much lower temperature. The steel structure of the World Trade Center would not have to melt in order for the buildings to lose their structural integrity. Steel can be soft at 538°C (1,000°F) well below the burning temperature of jet fuel.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie ® at January 23, 2013 04:07 PM (1hM1d)

133 Metal is if foooooorged from FAYA!!!!!


Posted by: dananjcon James Dio at January 23, 2013 04:07 PM (jvd3N)

134 If those a jet like that had crashed into the Empire State building which used a riveted construction instead of these clips it probably would have survived long enough to put the fire out.

---

Which is supported by the ESB being able to survive a fucking B-25 bomber hitting it during WWII.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 23, 2013 04:07 PM (e0xKF)

135 The Periodic Table is rally old and difficult to understand.

Posted by: Ezra Klein at January 23, 2013 04:07 PM (ZO/UQ)

136 >>>
It wasn't specifically a trick of heat, but just of cumulative mechanical damage to the metal from repeated bending.

darn, I overreached to try to tie it into the instant point.

(I do that a lot!)

Posted by: ace at January 23, 2013 04:07 PM (LCRYB)

137 The correct metallurgy term for deformation under load at high temperature is creep, and it generally begin at 1/2 of the melting point of metals.

Posted by: Meathead the Metallurgist at January 23, 2013 04:08 PM (sCsPY)

138 Some liberal jackass wrote that fire can't melt steel? And these are the pricks pushing global warming? Ah ha

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 23, 2013 04:08 PM (jE38p)

139 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the WTC was the first skyscraper to be built without asbestos insulation on the structural members. That alone could have kept the building up until the fire was out.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at January 23, 2013 04:08 PM (3ETnh)

140 A former boss with decades of experience in steel castings and forgings, upon hearing that morbidly obese retard Rosie O'Donnell declare that "fire can't melt steel", simply asked "Then how do they make it?"

Posted by: Deanimator at January 23, 2013 04:08 PM (2YnwF)

141 By the way, Twitchy would be a hundred times more effective if they turned these little nuggets of the left's stupidity nastiness into 30 second television ads.

Force them to smell their own $*^.

Posted by: Serious Cat at January 23, 2013 04:08 PM (UypUQ)

142 Ok hold on..

Is this for reals? Salon actually made a POST about this? Wow.. just.. WOW.

And to make such an ignorant followup about the laughable 'magic bullet' crap is belly laugh stuff. These are the people who elected the destroyer

When Stones 'JFK' came out, many people were saying that in the future, many idiots would think that its fact. Yep. Magic bullet. UNBELIEVABLE

Posted by: Just the Facts at January 23, 2013 04:08 PM (2U+qM)

143 Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and things with... molecular structures.

Posted by: Ash at January 23, 2013 04:08 PM (MT+0i)

144 Small thin amounts of metal can actually be burned by fairly weak flames.See: lighting steal wool with a Bic lighter. It's also quite fun.


--------------------------------------


Funny. When I read that I flashed to my younger years when we'd get fucked up on pot and watch "zip bags".

Posted by: Soona at January 23, 2013 04:08 PM (U9S0G)

145 Well, fire may not be able to melt steel, but Rosie O'Donnell's breath can knock a buzzard off a shit wagon at 50 yards.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at January 23, 2013 04:08 PM (XkWWK)

146 Building 7!

The Jews knew!

squawk! squawk!

Posted by: Luap Nor at January 23, 2013 04:08 PM (YmPwQ)

147 Is this the Death Metal thread?

Posted by: Dave Mustaine at January 23, 2013 04:09 PM (sftcY)

148 "But metals transition slowly as heat as applied."

Steels at phase transition points change behavior rather quickly.

During WWII, the Kaiser shipyards in Richmond in the SF Bay Area were cranking out "Liberty ships", cheap small freighters, at an absolutely breakneck pace. Sometimes not allowing for adequate quality control.

They had one newly built Liberty ship come off the ways, get steam up, head out through the Golden Gate, and a few miles offshore, the hull cracked massively and the ship was lost (in the telling I heard, with all hands).

The shipment of steel that had been used was of the wrong type. Steels used in ships must remain sufficiently ductile as to allow the hull to flex resiliently in response to sea loads. This particular steel underwent a phase transition to a less ductile, more brittle form and did so at typical Northern California seawater temperatures. It was fine on the building ways, but once it hit the cold water, game over.

Posted by: torquewrench at January 23, 2013 04:09 PM (gqT4g)

149 I think you could also toss in--

The elastic properties of metal.

Posted by: tasker at January 23, 2013 04:09 PM (r2PLg)

150 Gun harvesting? Where does ammo come from? Posted by: thunderb at January 23, 2013 04:03 PM (Dnbau)

I'm a lead farmer motherfucka

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 23, 2013 04:09 PM (t06LC)

151 next up: why Trig trutherism is perfectly understandable compared to birtherism

nuance bitchez

Posted by: JDP at January 23, 2013 04:09 PM (60GaT)

152 147 Is this the Death Metal thread?

Posted by: Dave Mustaine at January 23, 2013 04:09 PM (sftcY)

---

Hey, you, get outta here!

Posted by: Lars Ulrich at January 23, 2013 04:09 PM (e0xKF)

153 Uh-huh-huh. Structural members. Uh-huh-huh.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at January 23, 2013 04:10 PM (ZKzrr)

154 I always liked the opening scenes in Conan (the original) in which metal is being melted, and it's clearly *ON FIRE.* Little flickers of flame in the steel.

Thanks, Commenter Above, for explaining how this happens, and how Steel can actually catch fire.

I actually didn't know it could catch fire-- I just assumed that was something like "some oil on the steel getting burned."


Posted by: ace at January 23, 2013 04:10 PM (LCRYB)

155
>>Is this the Death Metal thread?


If it was, would you be here?

Posted by: garrett at January 23, 2013 04:10 PM (ZO/UQ)

156 >> This is because metal atoms are not held together in a rigid crystal structure, in which one atom forms a bond with the next, as in water ice, but rather some kind of (and I admit my memory fails me) loose system in which electrons are shared like a river and one atom can float gracefully past the next, if external force or heat is applied.

Related: ice is a very shitty electrical conductor. Metal, not so much.

Posted by: Andy at January 23, 2013 04:10 PM (C/NnJ)

157 i would add, welded joints also would be a weakness.

I suppose they thought to be 'real' they needed a continuous melted huge blob of steal and iron

Posted by: ette at January 23, 2013 04:10 PM (nqBYe)

158 The jet fuel was all consumed in the initial crash!
A few sticks of dynamite was all theat Bush needed!

squawk! squawk!

Posted by: Luap Nor at January 23, 2013 04:11 PM (YmPwQ)

159 I do not know if this was mentioned, but in my geology class during the
glaciation section we learned that ice can indeed bend and 'flow'. It
just needs to be over a mile thick.



And where do I find this bendable ice?

Posted by: Capt. Edward Smith at January 23, 2013 04:11 PM (QKKT0)

160 maybe if we paid a government subsidy to all the gun and ammo farmers to let their fields go fallow, it will reduce supply and drive the prices up!! Presto bingo gun control!!!

Posted by: thunderb at January 23, 2013 04:11 PM (Dnbau)

161 117
OT/

I only wanted one Classic Chix Sandwich from Burger King, but
they offered me a second one for free. Now I feel bloated and tired.


Posted by: Serious Cat at January 23, 2013 04:05 PM (UypUQ)

Which is what cat naps are for.

Posted by: joncelli at January 23, 2013 04:11 PM (RD7QR)

162 You can heat steel such that, even when it cools, it is now a softer form of steel. You can also heat it and cool it so quickly that it becomes brittle. But I think you need to be a Magician to do it, so it'll never happen in real life.

Posted by: t-bird at January 23, 2013 04:11 PM (FcR7P)

163 This is kind of interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ferrous_metallurgy

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at January 23, 2013 04:12 PM (ZKzrr)

164 The Periodic Table is a living breathing document with emanations and penumbras

Posted by: Jones in CO at January 23, 2013 04:12 PM (8sCoq)

165 since we are past 157,

what is a hardier or sharper italian cheese ?

Posted by: ette at January 23, 2013 04:12 PM (nqBYe)

166 more so than Parmesan

Posted by: ette at January 23, 2013 04:12 PM (nqBYe)

167 I think Presdent Obama should raise taxes on those neanderthals in America that must own guns. That way we can reduce crime because people will get rid of there guns so that they don't have to pay higher taxes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Mary Clogginstein from Brattleboro, Vt and Proud of it !!!!!!!!!! at January 23, 2013 04:12 PM (48wze)

168 All the JFK conspiracies were just to muddy the water.
The Left couldn't accept that Oswald was a left-wing commie who hated the fact that the supposed "left-wing" Democrats elected a committed anti-Communist in JFK. So he shot him. End of story.

Oswald was an angry left-winger who shot JFK for not being left-wing enough and a traitor to the Left.

The Left refused to accept reality so they pushed conspiracy theories so hard that today the average American thinks it was some right-wing conspiracy.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 23, 2013 04:12 PM (ZPrif)

169 The hardest part of the conspiracy was finding some fucking muslims who were willing to die for George Bush.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at January 23, 2013 04:12 PM (QKKT0)

170 Science, how does it work?

Posted by: Rich at January 23, 2013 04:12 PM (arczc)

171 and compositions and things with... molecular structures.
Posted by: Ash at January 23, 2013 04:08 PM (MT+0i)

That sounds evil. We should ban those.

Posted by: Invictus at January 23, 2013 04:12 PM (OQpzc)

172 Noted metallurgist and genius Rosie O'Donnell said on "The View" that fire can't melt steel. Jazz guitarist god/bicycling enthusiast/LGF petty tyrant Charles Johnson mocked her for months.

New thread please.

Posted by: CozMark at January 23, 2013 04:13 PM (BjOkm)

173 fire can't melt steel, but abortion rights are in the Constitution



got it

Posted by: Jones in CO at January 23, 2013 04:13 PM (8sCoq)

174 You mean I should have killed Roseanne Barr instead of Thulsa Doom in my quest for the secret of steel?

Posted by: Conan The Republican at January 23, 2013 04:13 PM (qYvEa)

175 Damn, Ace, you are so on fire that you have made me liquid-curious all the way out here in Jersey!

Posted by: Z as in Jersey at January 23, 2013 04:13 PM (Fvc1x)

176 Oswald was an angry left-winger who shot JFK for not being left-wing enough and a traitor to the Left.

I'm mildly surprised that never happened to Joe Lieberman.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at January 23, 2013 04:13 PM (ZKzrr)

177
Fire can't melt steel.
Really?

Posted by: Mr. Oxygen and Acetylene at January 23, 2013 04:13 PM (mETGQ)

178 I'm pretty sure these people snorted mercury--just for the hell of it.

Posted by: tasker at January 23, 2013 04:13 PM (r2PLg)

179 The steel in the towers failed due to the same principles that allowed blacksmiths to make swords. Sheesh, just how damn dumb do you actually have to be to be a LIEberal? Room temperature IQ or lower?

Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at January 23, 2013 04:14 PM (kXoT0)

180 All these congress critters jerking off and fawning over hillary. Floor must be slippery up there?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 23, 2013 04:14 PM (jE38p)

181 fire can't melt steel, but fire contributes to the making of steel.
so i never understood their argument in that idea.

Posted by: ette at January 23, 2013 04:14 PM (nqBYe)

182 If fire can't soften steel, then why do blacksmiths heat up the chunks they're working on before pounding them with hammers?

Again, not a difficult concept, but no-one is so blind as he who would not see. If you don't want to believe the truth (ie you're an ironically misnamed "truther") you won't.

Posted by: looking closely at January 23, 2013 04:14 PM (6Q9g2)

183 O/T Hillary is still getting her ass kissed. Surprise.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at January 23, 2013 04:14 PM (UOM48)

184 Funny. When I read that I flashed to my younger years when we'd get fucked up on pot and watch "zip bags".

Posted by: Soona at January 23, 2013 04:08 PM (U9S0G)

I wasn't high, I was however a bit of a pyro when I was younger. I worked with model rockets and lost my starters, so my friends and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out if we could use steal wool as starters. We did eventually give up as it turned out you can buy starters, and that was easier and less risky (since the steel wool went up as soon as you connected the leads to it!).
@Ace,That may or may not be what I talked about, it may just be coal on the steel. BUT, having said that, burning steal is rust. That's also how those hand warmers work. They literally burn iron savings to make warmth. The lining prevents them from burning to quickly, if you open it up with scissors, you get a little poof of flame.

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at January 23, 2013 04:14 PM (W8k4K)

185 Posted by: ace at January 23, 2013 04:06 PM (LCRYB)

Nope, it's even simpler than that. Regular ice from your freezer can bend. Just make a long, thin piece and drape it over a fulcrum in the freezer for a few days. It will bend.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at January 23, 2013 04:14 PM (GsoHv)

186 Noted metallurgist and genius Rosie O'Donnell said on "The View" that
fire can't melt steel.


And her conclusions were subject to rigorous peer review on an episode of Judge Judy.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at January 23, 2013 04:15 PM (QKKT0)

187
>>what is a hardier or sharper italian cheese ?

Pecorino is sheep's milk.It tends to have a bit more bite.

Posted by: garrett at January 23, 2013 04:15 PM (ZO/UQ)

188 Hey! You got emanation on my penumbra!

Posted by: Jones in CO at January 23, 2013 04:15 PM (8sCoq)

189 These idiots seem to have missed the whole craft and art or swordsmithing...

Posted by: Radius at January 23, 2013 04:15 PM (nL5y5)

190 You can heat steel such that, even when it cools, it is now a softer form of steel. You can also heat it and cool it so quickly that it becomes brittle. But I think you need to be a Magician to do it, so it'll never happen in real life.


Alchemy 101

Posted by: rickb223 at January 23, 2013 04:15 PM (80/E+)

191 I have to admit, when it comes to the Newtown conspiracy theories, that picture of Jared Loughner's attorney as a weeping mother in Newtown...well it sure as hell looks like it is her.

I'm the last person to believe this crap. Having decided that Oswald was the lone gunman long ago, based on the outstanding research at mcadams.edu.

But those pics are very, very strange. Sure as HELL looks like the same woman.

Posted by: BlueStateRepub at January 23, 2013 04:15 PM (7ObY1)

192 I once saw Connor McCloud practically take out a parking lot pillar with a Katana. I think I know what I'm talking about when it comes to metal. You're wrong Ace Katana's can't bend fire, or something.

Where's that sexy metallurgist when you need one??

Posted by: BuckIV at January 23, 2013 04:15 PM (gedHR)

193 183 O/T Hillary is still getting her ass kissed. Surprise.

---

At least someone else is doing it for once.

Posted by: Huma Merkin Abedin at January 23, 2013 04:15 PM (e0xKF)

194 168 Flatbush Joe,

and the media's games with Obama terrify me that if he ever falls God forbid it will be a Loughner.

The right gained NOTHING by JFK dying quite the contrary, and we'd gain even less by bambi leaving office early that way.

I pray for his safety, and eventual conviction every night.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 23, 2013 04:15 PM (LRFds)

195 FWIW, here is where these whackaloon conspiracy theories go to die:

http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=64

Posted by: Good Lt at January 23, 2013 04:15 PM (iwHxr)

196 Liquid-curious.

Fucking gold*

*gold is soft, and if you get it drunk enough, well...you know where this is going

Posted by: Mike Jonze at January 23, 2013 04:16 PM (epWQP)

197 Fire can't melt steel yet paper cover's rock.

Fuckin science amazes me every time.





Posted by: dananjcon at January 23, 2013 04:16 PM (jvd3N)

198 what is a hardier or sharper italian cheese ?

Perrano (sp?)

Posted by: t-bird at January 23, 2013 04:16 PM (FcR7P)

199 I thought 'ductile' and 'malleability' were about pervs who fuck ducks but I don't want to go to the Urban Dictionary to find out!

Posted by: a moron at January 23, 2013 04:16 PM (ORGYc)

200
I always liked the opening scenes in Conan (the original) in which metal is being melted, and it's clearly *ON FIRE.* Little flickers of flame in the steel.

Given that swords are invariably forged, not cast, and that cast steel is very very modern technology while cast iron is far to brittle to use for blades and suchlike, I would assume that anything in that scene is Hollywood's artistic license until proven otherwise. That movie is a running joke among bladesmiths, BTW.

Posted by: Grey Fox at January 23, 2013 04:16 PM (hJesl)

201 I guess that's why they fire proof I-beams in high rise buildings. I see it all the time. Looks like Zimmermit they used to put on WW2 German tanks some magnetic mines wouldn't stick. Anyway, the coating is designed to buy time structurally in the case of a bad fire - because steel gets soft if it gets hot.

Posted by: forest at January 23, 2013 04:16 PM (L7wZc)

202 Someone mentioned the clips as being a weak spot and how the Empire State Building did not suffer from the same flaw.

There is actually a photo of where a WWII bomber flew into the side of the Empire State Building. It tore a helluva a hole in the side but everyone went to work the next day too. There was none of this waiting decades to put up a replacement building. Everyone just grabbed their damn cigarettes and stepped out on the new veranda to enjoy the view.

Posted by: Voluble at January 23, 2013 04:16 PM (qYvEa)

203 So when I use my oxy-acetylene torch to heat up steel way short of it's melting point to bend it, I am actually lying to myself?

Posted by: Lemmiwinks at January 23, 2013 04:16 PM (SkyIE)

204 "Plasticity" is a Zionist conspiracy

Posted by: ron paul! at January 23, 2013 04:16 PM (iEoiA)

205 "The Left couldn't accept that Oswald was a left-wing commie"

i remember after the Giffords shooting where RFK Jr. said that because there was a lot of right-wing anti-Catholic sentiment in Dallas, this "environment" was what was really responsible.

it's kinda brilliant when you think about it -- liberals naturally view their enemies as more extreme, so by blaming the general political environment, it doesn't matter whether the actual perpetrator is right-wing, left-wing or just some weirdo. also, nuance.

Posted by: JDP at January 23, 2013 04:16 PM (60GaT)

206 Science!

It's awesome!

WPI's Fire Protection Engineering Department's Prof. Barnett investigates the WTC collapse.

Posted by: Xmas at January 23, 2013 04:17 PM (eBRdM)

207 #181 Fire not only CAN melt steel, it can even cause steel to combust (burn). The former is just a question of temperature, and the latter a question of temperature and oxygen availability.

See here:
http://tinyurl.com/bhvfcd8

Posted by: looking closely at January 23, 2013 04:17 PM (6Q9g2)

208 Wait, who's the "reality-based community" again?

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at January 23, 2013 04:17 PM (QKKT0)

209 I think it's really the T-1000 impersonating a writer over at Salon.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at January 23, 2013 04:17 PM (sftcY)

210 198
what is a hardier or sharper italian cheese ?




Pecorino Romano?

Posted by: Jane D'oh at January 23, 2013 04:17 PM (UOM48)

211 he was comparing causes of Giffords shooting to JFK, i mean.

Posted by: JDP at January 23, 2013 04:17 PM (60GaT)

212 Fire can't melt steel

*blink*

Posted by: Pittsburgh at January 23, 2013 04:17 PM (FcR7P)

213 The best, epic takedown of Kennedy assassination theories ever written. If we still lived in a world of truth and facts, these guys would have won a Pulitzer for this.

It's deep...very deep. Could take weeks to get through it all. But even a casual perusal is well worth it.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

Posted by: BlueStateRepub at January 23, 2013 04:17 PM (7ObY1)

214 Fixed it:

Salon: 9/11 Trutherism Is Better Than Other Conspiracy Theories, Because It All Flows From One Unassailable Scientific Fact:BUSH IS EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Tedt at January 23, 2013 04:17 PM (Bv9qa)

215 Like I've been telling you- THE ICE. IS GONNA. BREAK!!!

Posted by: Johnny Smith at January 23, 2013 04:17 PM (Vb7de)

216 Pecorino is sheep's milk.It tends to have a bit more bite.

Posted by: garrett at January 23, 2013 04:15 PM (ZO/UQ)

ty ty , off to fight those lolling in aisles looking for who knows what with their cart in the Middle of the aisle!

Posted by: ette at January 23, 2013 04:17 PM (nqBYe)

217 Don't get all sciency on these progressives. They think science is what some Democrat tells them.

Posted by: GardenGnome at January 23, 2013 04:17 PM (2aO3a)

218 Liquid-curious made me laugh out loud.

Posted by: Beth at January 23, 2013 04:17 PM (leaxe)

219 Fire us too much and too quickly and we start drooping--even the ones made in Italy!
Posted by: 18th 19th century cannons at January 23, 2013 03:58 PM (ORGYc)

Modern gun barrels still have that problem. Heck, tank guns can deform from the heat from sunlight, enough to cause a miss at long range. Modern tanks have sensors so the ballistic computer can compensate for barrel droop.

Posted by: Zeedub85 at January 23, 2013 04:17 PM (X7AyW)

220 Science can only prove BUSH IS EVIL!!!!!

Posted by: Tedt at January 23, 2013 04:17 PM (Bv9qa)

221 You can heat steel such that, even when it cools, it is now a softer form of steel. You can also heat it and cool it so quickly that it becomes brittle.

Burn the witch!

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 23, 2013 04:18 PM (evdj2)

222 "Jet fuel can't melt steel"
Yeah, that's why they make jet motors out of inconel, hastelloy, Rene 41 and other foul nasty shit.

Posted by: Roland THTG at January 23, 2013 04:18 PM (QM5S2)

223 Some dick dem just compared hillary to JFK?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 23, 2013 04:18 PM (jE38p)

224 211 he was comparing causes of Giffords shooting to JFK, i mean.

---

What was his explanation for his dad's death? Evil Zionist conspiracies?

Posted by: Sirhan Sirhan at January 23, 2013 04:18 PM (e0xKF)

225 The falseness of the troofer theory can be proven by a snippet of video of one of the burning towers right before it collapsed. It shows very distinctly molten metal flowing from the area of one of the corner columns where the planes hit.

I see it every September and wonder if anyone else has noticed it.

Posted by: Soona at January 23, 2013 04:18 PM (U9S0G)

226 Pretty much all the high profile 60s shootings were by left-wingers (JFK, RFK, Malcolm X) --- yet the media portrayed it then and now as an orgy of right-wing violence.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 23, 2013 04:18 PM (ZPrif)

227 Modern tanks have sensors so the ballistic computer can compensate for barrel droop.

....that's hot.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at January 23, 2013 04:19 PM (ZKzrr)

228 fire can't melt steel, but fire contributes to the making of steel.
so i never understood their argument in that idea.
Posted by: ette at January 23, 2013 04:14 PM (nqBYe)



Bush. Remember, Bush is Magic.


*gambols about all innocent like after teeing that one up*

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 23, 2013 04:19 PM (VtjlW)

229 Haven't read all the comments so has anyone posted the California fuel truck fire pictures that 'melted' the overpass into a big pile heap? I'm guessing the same people rigged that overpass with explosives. Only explanation.

Posted by: polynikes at January 23, 2013 04:19 PM (m2CN7)

230 But you can bend metal. Metal is deformable


With. my. mind.Posted by: Uri Geller at January 23, 2013 03:48 PM (ZO/UQ)
Big fuckin' whoop. I can do that just by sitting on it.

Posted by: Rosie O'Donnell at January 23, 2013 04:19 PM (5iuEW)

231 But these are the "smart people."

Uh huh. Riiiiiight.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 23, 2013 04:19 PM (sbV1u)

232 227 Modern tanks have sensors so the ballistic computer can compensate for barrel droop.

....that's hot.

---

Viagra for tanks?

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 23, 2013 04:19 PM (e0xKF)

233 Modern tanks have sensors so the ballistic computer can compensate for barrel droop.

Bob Dole would like to get his hands on one of these gizmos.

Posted by: Bob Dole at January 23, 2013 04:19 PM (QKKT0)

234 Rule of thumb with structural steel.

When steel is at half of its melting point, it looses half of its structural integrity.

But with a building, you do not have to weaken every piece of steel. Just the joints, that is where steel meets steel. Do that and those joints give away, shifting more load to other joints, causing more to give way.

Once that begins to happen, it is all over. Nothing can be done. If you rapidly cool the joints, you risk causing them to fracture.

Lefties who are supposedly scientific minded are incapable of understanding basic laws of physics.

Posted by: Holger at January 23, 2013 04:19 PM (MHk3m)

235 you got your penumbra on my emanation

Posted by: thunderb at January 23, 2013 04:19 PM (Dnbau)

236 192 I once saw Connor McCloud practically take out a parking lot pillar with a Katana. I think I know what I'm talking about when it comes to metal. You're wrong Ace Katana's can't bend fire, or something.

Where's that sexy metallurgist when you need one??
Posted by: BuckIV at January 23, 2013 04:15 PM (gedHR)

-----
immortal Highlanders and banksters and Zionists (oh my) !!!1eleventy!!1!1!1!

Posted by: luaP noR at January 23, 2013 04:20 PM (FkupK)

237 >>>Nope, it's even simpler than that. Regular ice from your freezer can bend. Just make a long, thin piece and drape it over a fulcrum in the freezer for a few days. It will bend.


Interesting but I think that relies upon the fact that any frozen material is actually only frozen *on average.* Ice will eventually sublimate to water vapor, for example, because it's only the *average* temperature that's below zero -- individual molecules may be higher than that, and zap off into water vapor.

I think your trick relies upon the fact that bits and pieces of the ice unfreeze and refreeze all the time, based on local conditions (the fact that it's not a uniform temperature, and so some parts may turn back to water) and thus as it unfreezes and refreezes it can begin drooping in response to force (gravity).

Plus, you can have micro-shears along stress points.

Plus, ice becomes water under pressure (a fact ice-skating relies on).

I don't think your trick proves that water is malleable as ice. I think it illustrates other things that are going on.

Posted by: ace at January 23, 2013 04:20 PM (LCRYB)

238 How cute. They start off the article talking about "not all conspiracy theorists are as crazy and absurd as Alex Jones..."...and immediately proceed with boosting his number one favorite conspiracy theory.

Fucking cretins.

Posted by: MadisonConservative at January 23, 2013 04:20 PM (Y/HG5)

239 "Jet fuel can't melt steel"Yeah, that's why they make jet motors out of inconel, hastelloy, Rene 41 and other foul nasty shit.
Posted by: Roland THTG at January 23, 2013 04:18 PM (QM5S2)

Inconel hates me

Posted by: Carbide Tools at January 23, 2013 04:20 PM (nTgAI)

240 Short and thick does the trick and never any drooping.

Posted by: mortars at January 23, 2013 04:21 PM (ORGYc)

241 hey thanks for the mention Ace

Posted by: Jones in CO at January 23, 2013 04:21 PM (8sCoq)

242 202 Voluble,

The Depression era workers would rink our fucking milkshakes, even those of us who try to live up to them.

They built that building in under two years and lost several people in the building and went on.

They got shit done.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 23, 2013 04:21 PM (LRFds)

243 Modern tanks have sensors so the ballistic computer can compensate for barrel droop. Posted by: Zeedub85 at January 23, 2013 04:17 PM (X7AyW)

Sure do. Just don't stand near the barrel when the gunner is updating the Muzzle Reference System. Otherwise, you'll have one hell of a headache...maybe a compressed disc or two also.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 23, 2013 04:21 PM (sbV1u)

244 has anyone posted the California fuel truck fire pictures that 'melted' the overpass into a big pile heap? I'm guessing the same people rigged that overpass with explosives.

...and all the Jews used a different highway that day.

Posted by: t-bird at January 23, 2013 04:21 PM (FcR7P)

245
How sharper than a serpent's tooth...

Posted by: soothsayer at January 23, 2013 04:21 PM (Fely/)

246 The Left refused to accept reality so they pushed conspiracy theories so hard that today the average American thinks it was some right-wing conspiracy.

And what has the Right done to counter that? Or exploit that? RFK Jr. just came last week and said there was probably a conspiracy. RFK Jr. is a liberal celebrity. We could have a blast playing guilt by association and making mainstream Democrats defend the conspiracy theory or distance themselves from it.

What if Michael Reagan started talking about a conspiracy surrounding his father's shooting? The Left would still be picking popcorn from their teeth after watching Republicans squirm and deny and distance. We have a ways to go to catch up.

Posted by: CJ at January 23, 2013 04:22 PM (9KqcB)

247 Lefties who are supposedly scientific minded are incapable of understanding basic laws of physics.

Physics is racist.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at January 23, 2013 04:22 PM (ZKzrr)

248 Thats what she said

Posted by: thunderb at January 23, 2013 04:22 PM (Dnbau)

249 All these conspiracies are utter bullshit amarite?

Posted by: Bill Callahan at January 23, 2013 04:23 PM (NzBQO)

250 I see it every September and wonder if anyone else has noticed it. Posted by: Soona at January 23, 2013 04:18 PM (U9S0G)

Yes, I see it and weep.

Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at January 23, 2013 04:23 PM (kXoT0)

251 Have we checked the actuary tables on this matter??

Posted by: Matt Damon at January 23, 2013 04:23 PM (jvd3N)

252 247 Lefties who are supposedly scientific minded are incapable of understanding basic laws of physics.

Physics is racist.

---

Agreed.

Posted by: Sir Mix-A-Lot at January 23, 2013 04:23 PM (e0xKF)

253 Anyone who can get the word gambols into a sentence is ok in my book.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at January 23, 2013 04:23 PM (3ETnh)

254 Fucking right wing science mongers

Posted by: The Jackhole at January 23, 2013 04:23 PM (nTgAI)

255 Is this still a thing? Ace does a good enough job, basically metal's strength is dependent upon blah blah blah, and yes, temperature is one of them things.

Very complicated stuff that easily observable like crack propagation, creep, fatigue, tensile strength, compressive strength, as well as brittleness.

You've heard stories, cold-cold weather can make steel snap. That's why there's things like operating temperatures, too hot jet engine turbines will break, too cold, the titanic splits in half.

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 23, 2013 04:23 PM (QxSug)

256 Good topic, but the next time you are talking about the yield point of steel vs. temperature, I recommend a guest post (preferably by a mechanical, structural, or metals engineer).
Grim, BSME, MSIE, P.E. etc. etc.

Posted by: Grim at January 23, 2013 04:24 PM (tO352)

257 re 25: Geller did the Tonight show with Carson one time. Carson apparently asked the Amazing Randi if he had any advice; Randi replied, you used to do magic so you know the trick: never take your eyes off the spoon.

That was one night Geller couldn't bend the spoon.

And the 9/11 troofers are as smart as the very least smartest of my cats.

Posted by: mallfly at January 23, 2013 04:24 PM (bJm7W)

258 Some dick dem just compared hillary to JFK?

Both served in the Senate, ran for President and bagged a lot of chicks

Posted by: CJ at January 23, 2013 04:24 PM (9KqcB)

259 246

those right-wing pope-hating crazies from Dallas (ground zero of evil) framed the guy! believe meeeeeeee

Posted by: JDP at January 23, 2013 04:24 PM (60GaT)

260 As a machinist, I'll also lay down a fact about steel:

Steel absorbs the fuck out of heat and can be ever so slightly altered by the smallest of amounts. A rod of cold-rolled (or hot-rolled even) measuring 2" will probably shrink on a very cold and frosty night. Possibly only a few .001, but in machining that's an awful lot. The opposite goes for the same rod that sits out in the baking sun. The rod will most likely grow by .005 just by sitting outside.

That's just the effects that the FUCKING WEATHER can have. Imagine what an enclosed box of burning fuel would do.

Posted by: Aurvant at January 23, 2013 04:24 PM (NPa5i)

261 I agree .....BUSH lied and now we are paying for it !!!! We hate BUSH !!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Mary Clogginstein from Brattleboro, Vt and Proud of it !!!!!!!!!! at January 23, 2013 04:24 PM (48wze)

262 nice Dole sock.

Posted by: garrett at January 23, 2013 04:24 PM (qizmT)

263 Bush blew up the levies! So what if I spent the fed funds for levy improvement for easy access to my friend's casino?! Racist crackers!

Posted by: Ray 'Chocolate City' Nagin at January 23, 2013 04:24 PM (msPO3)

264 238 Madison Conservative,

Remember MadCo DOUBLETHINK so Jones can simultaneously be correct, AND wrong.

Yes a voice to deify, and villify.

Internal consistency?

Never heard of it

Posted by: sven10077 at January 23, 2013 04:24 PM (LRFds)

265 I can melt steel with my mind. As long as its a spoon.

Posted by: Uri Geller at January 23, 2013 04:24 PM (m2CN7)

266 I guess I need to alert every fucking foundry that has operated for the past 500 fucking years and let them know they can't melt iron with fire. How anyone can put their incredible stupidity on public display, wait a minute....for Leftards thats a feature, not a bug.

Posted by: maddogg at January 23, 2013 04:24 PM (OlN4e)

267 regarding ice,
I recall that the Army once had a Cold Regions lab, CRREL, where one of the big topics of study was the mechanical properties of ice. Not sure if it's still in existence.

Posted by: Rule #2 at January 23, 2013 04:24 PM (CypDC)

268 Modern tanks have sensors so the ballistic computer can compensate for barrel droop.....that's hot.
Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at January 23, 2013 04:19 PM (ZKzrr)


-----------------------------------------------------


We must buy Pos T Vacs for our tanks.

Posted by: Soona at January 23, 2013 04:25 PM (U9S0G)

269 The falseness of the troofer theory can be proven by a snippet of video of one of the burning towers right before it collapsed. It shows very distinctly molten metal flowing from the area of one of the corner columns where the planes hit.

IIRC that's actually molten aluminum from the plane rather than structural steel from the Towers.

Posted by: Ian S. at January 23, 2013 04:25 PM (B/VB5)

270 >>> A rod of cold-rolled (or hot-rolled even) measuring 2" will probably shrink on a very cold and frosty night. Possibly only a few .001, but in machining that's an awful lot.

you're preaching to the choir, buddy.

Posted by: George Costanza at January 23, 2013 04:25 PM (LCRYB)

271 you got your penumbra on my emanation
Stop arguing, you two. Now you can have the two great tastes of penumbra and emanation combined in one great treat: Robert's Taxes Cups®.

Posted by: c.j. roberts' taxes cups at January 23, 2013 04:25 PM (ORGYc)

272 I think your trick relies upon the fact that bits and pieces of the ice unfreeze and refreeze all the time, based on local conditions (the fact that it's not a uniform temperature, and so some parts may turn back to water) and thus as it unfreezes and refreezes it can begin drooping in response to force (gravity).

I think that's implied. The stress generates the heat, at the molecular level, that melts the ice, or so I imagine it, not being trained the metallurgic arts at the level. I think that will happen at anything above 0 Kelvin.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 23, 2013 04:25 PM (evdj2)

273

Any word yet on ice breaking steel?

Posted by: RMS Titanic at January 23, 2013 04:26 PM (mETGQ)

274 Not for nothing, I was in OKC over the weekend and visited the Murrah Center Memorial. Very moving and well done. Absolutely heartbreaking things there about the daycare center and the children killed.

Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at January 23, 2013 04:26 PM (kXoT0)

275 I cant believe no one picked up ATC Bush comment, what with drooping steel and all the other material here. Our standards are slipping

Posted by: thunderb at January 23, 2013 04:26 PM (Dnbau)

276 I just opened this and if it has been said it bears repeating: ice does bend, and flow.

Posted by: Mr. Glacier at January 23, 2013 04:26 PM (sHqf1)

277 Hell, if metal is always so rigid and is never malleable no never, how do the Troofers explain Galloping Gertie collapsing because of wind?

http://youtu.be/j-zczJXSxnw


Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 23, 2013 04:26 PM (VtjlW)

278 These clowns need to be sent to a RenFaire, given a belled shoes, a turkey leg, and made to follow a busty lass around to all the smithy types and get their world view adjusted by a bald man with a handlebar mustache who lives in his RV.

Posted by: Jean at January 23, 2013 04:26 PM (Is+Nb)

279 @165: North American Parmesan cheese tends to be milder than the Italian equivalent. If it comes from Italy, it will be a little sharper and drier, and then will normally be called Parmigiano-Reggiano. Pecorino Romano is similar, as is Grana Padano.

Posted by: HT at January 23, 2013 04:27 PM (d6iMX)

280
any thread invoking fire deserves some Arthur Brown
FIRE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOErZuzZpS8

Posted by: garrett at January 23, 2013 04:27 PM (tDTwV)

281 Watching hillary I got to admit dems lie so much better than Conservatives, especially clintons and obamas.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 23, 2013 04:27 PM (jE38p)

282 271 CJ Roberts taxes Cips,


nice you win the internet!

Posted by: sven10077 at January 23, 2013 04:27 PM (LRFds)

283 No, Carson's trick was he asked Geller to do it wish spoons Carson provided, not Geller's own spoons.

Geller's trick is to pre-bend the spoon. Bend it back and forth enough to weaken it but not break it.

When it's weak enough the heat from your hand will cause it to bend.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 23, 2013 04:27 PM (ZPrif)

284 The properties of water are stance aren't they.

Why--damn it.

Why?

Posted by: tasker at January 23, 2013 04:27 PM (r2PLg)

285 I should have been able to predict someone would have already mentioned me.

Posted by: Uri Geller at January 23, 2013 04:27 PM (m2CN7)

286 When Stones 'JFK' came out, many people were saying that in the future, many idiots would think that its fact. Yep. Magic bullet. UNBELIEVABLE

And Showtime (Cinemax?) just gave him a boatload of money to produce "new" histories of the US.

Posted by: CJ at January 23, 2013 04:28 PM (9KqcB)

287 I like pie.

Posted by: Joe Biden at January 23, 2013 04:28 PM (QKKT0)

288 I cant believe no one picked up ATC Bush comment, what with drooping steel and all the other material here.

Not my style.

Posted by: Mighty Casey at January 23, 2013 04:28 PM (evdj2)

289 277 AlexTheChick,

Wind is stronger than fire......

wish I were laughing

Posted by: sven10077 at January 23, 2013 04:28 PM (LRFds)

290 Salon? More like *hair* salon.

Posted by: Y-not on the phone at January 23, 2013 04:28 PM (5H6zj)

291 Everyone knows that sterno will melt a Kit Kat bar.

Posted by: Rosie O'Fat at January 23, 2013 04:28 PM (vbh31)

292 Sometimes, this place reminds me of a group of PhDs, lawyers, and engineers - who spent the afternoon in an opium den.

That's why I keep coming back.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at January 23, 2013 04:29 PM (3ETnh)

293 #266

See here:
http://tinyurl.com/athwzfz

How does THAT happen?
If fire can't melt steel, then what can? Pixie dust?


Posted by: looking closely at January 23, 2013 04:29 PM (PwGfd)

294 off topic, seen on yahoo, someone we all like selling something we all want (or someone we all want selling something we all like):

A new Mercedes-Benz ad starring the voluptuous Kate Upton is generating some surprisingly negative buzz in the blogosphere, with critics calling it cheap and tasteless—even wondering if it's too sexy.

"Hot girl, great car, and somehow I think this is the worst ad Mercedes has ever made," and "Cheap and stupid. Worst ad Mercedes made. Whoever thought of this needs to be fired!" are among a slew of choice comments posted on the Mercedes-Benz Facebook page.

The ad, set to air on February 3 during the Super Bowl, starts off with a slow pan upward, from feet to face, of a scantily clad Upton and her physical assets. Bluesy music blares. The screen goes blank except for a title: "Kate Upton Washes the New Mercedes CLA—in Slow Motion," and then it's back to the action, which consists of Upton suggestively blowing suds out of her hand, and then teasing and supervising a few young, wide-eyed young men in football jerseys who actually take care of washing the shiny new car.

Posted by: mallfly at January 23, 2013 04:29 PM (bJm7W)

295
Who the fuck do these insignificant republican congressmen they are? Hillary is having them for lunch, with fava beans and chianti.

What arrogance. How could any of the these guys think they are going to score points on her when she could lie rings around them in her sleep. Fucking amatures.

Posted by: jwest at January 23, 2013 04:29 PM (ZDsRL)

296 Oops! The properties of water are *strange*.

Posted by: tasker at January 23, 2013 04:29 PM (r2PLg)

297 The Periodic Table is a living breathing document with emanations and penumbras
-- Jones in CO

Actualy... it does keep expanding.... l

Posted by: Romeo13 at January 23, 2013 04:30 PM (lZBBB)

298 how do the Troofers explain Galloping Gertie collapsing because of wind?

Evil corporations chasing profit at the expense of people's lives.

(Yes, it was a wholly government project. Don't let the facts get in the way of the narrative, man.)

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at January 23, 2013 04:30 PM (ZKzrr)

299 Any word yet on ice breaking steel?


Posted by: RMS Titanic at January 23, 2013 04:26 PM (mETGQ)


Anyone ever notice that all the Jooos were on the Carpathia that night?

Posted by: Rosie O'Donnell at January 23, 2013 04:30 PM (QKKT0)

300 Isn't Uri Geller a Jooo?

Posted by: Truther IV at January 23, 2013 04:30 PM (eEfYn)

301 Good topic, but the next time you are talking about the yield point of steel vs. temperature, I recommend a guest post (preferably by a mechanical, structural, or metals engineer). Grim, BSME, MSIE, P.E. etc. etc.

I make it a point to only read posts from such people. Politics, sports, celebrity gossip...all of it.

Posted by: CJ at January 23, 2013 04:30 PM (9KqcB)

302 The stress generates the heat, at the molecular level, that melts the ice,

I think it's actually regelation you're talking about. You're raising the pressure locally, lowering the melting point.

Posted by: t-bird at January 23, 2013 04:30 PM (FcR7P)

303 Former AF pilot questioning Hillary right now.

Posted by: tasker at January 23, 2013 04:31 PM (r2PLg)

304 I've always wondered how metal gets into usable shapes.

I guess they chisel or cut I beams from metal trees.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 23, 2013 04:31 PM (mOyDx)

305 Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 23, 2013 04:26 PM (VtjlW)

Resonance is evil. We must ban resonance.

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at January 23, 2013 04:31 PM (W8k4K)

306
"Hot girl, great car, and somehow I think this is the worst ad Mercedes has ever made," and "Cheap and stupid. Worst ad Mercedes made. Whoever thought of this needs to be fired!" are among a slew of choice comments posted on the Mercedes-Benz Facebook page.


This man has no dick.

Posted by: Bill Murray at January 23, 2013 04:31 PM (tDTwV)

307 That journalism degree really makes them an expert on everything. What exactly did they do during college? aside from heavy drug use and sexual experimentation?

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 23, 2013 04:31 PM (QxSug)

308 The science is settled! Like my divorce.

Posted by: Groper Al Gore at January 23, 2013 04:31 PM (msPO3)

309 The article is even more disturbing that you'd think. Who is this guy Greg Olear? This idiot just grenaded his own career (well should have)

He actually wrote that JFK conspiracy theories are being open minded, and they can't be crazy, because Bobby Kennedy probably believed it. mmmm no logical fallacies involved here

Salon should be dissolved and everyone fired for this. HAHAHA now Obamas reelection makes more sense. Look at his insane supporters

Posted by: Just the Facts at January 23, 2013 04:31 PM (2U+qM)

310 Yikes going to drone questions....

Posted by: tasker at January 23, 2013 04:31 PM (r2PLg)

311 It boggles the mind to think of how much fucked up stuff you have to believe in order to be a modern liberal

it's so much easier to be a conservative- all you need do is open your eyes and see the world as it really is

Posted by: Jones in CO at January 23, 2013 04:31 PM (8sCoq)

312 What has always remained a mystery to me is how Liberals can hold two completely opposite "truths" to be completely congruent in every way. Such as the death penalty for society's worst scum is the highest evil that we as a free society can commit, but, killing the most innocent of humans via infanticide by tortuous dismemberment is the highest good. My mind and belief systems are just not that damn flexible.


Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at January 23, 2013 04:32 PM (kXoT0)

313 So he is probably familiar with Air Operations Command....

Posted by: tasker at January 23, 2013 04:32 PM (r2PLg)

314 I used to work in the aircraft industry. The engine manufacturers sure went to a lot of trouble with cooling systems and heat resistant exotic materials to keep the innards of their engines from overheating and burning up. The Troofers should tell them they are wasting time and resources. Jet fuel just can't melt steel. Maybe they would be willing to stake their worthless lives on their fairy tail.

Posted by: maddogg at January 23, 2013 04:32 PM (OlN4e)

315 37 My husband worked in the steel industry for a while. He assures me that there are steel farms in the midwest where different shapes and sizes are harvested. Because indeed, fire can't melt steel.

-----------

I used to travel a lot for work. One of the things I enjoyed was a night landing, swooping over the light bulb fields surrounding major cities such as Las Vegas where the hard-working immigrants carefully select only the plumpest, ripest 100W incandescents that are worthy of receiving the GE label.

Posted by: Citizen Anachronda at January 23, 2013 04:32 PM (FzhYM)

316 Asking about the non call up of FEST

Posted by: tasker at January 23, 2013 04:32 PM (r2PLg)

317 I've got a Conspiracy for you:

80% of the country say they're well informed voters who recognize the need to reduce our deficit and debt.

Then Obama and his ilk.

Posted by: Not Ready to Unsock at January 23, 2013 04:32 PM (1FLBb)

318
As a machinist, I'll also lay down a fact about steel:

Steel absorbs the fuck out of heat and can be ever so slightly altered by the smallest of amounts. A rod of cold-rolled (or hot-rolled even) measuring 2" will probably shrink on a very cold and frosty night. Possibly only a few .001, but in machining that's an awful lot. The opposite goes for the same rod that sits out in the baking sun. The rod will most likely grow by .005 just by sitting outside.

That's just the effects that the FUCKING WEATHER can have. Imagine what an enclosed box of burning fuel would do.


There is a story about an engineer on a small railroad that parked his steam locomotive for the night without making sure that the throttle controlling the piston valves was completely back, and was woken up in the middle of the night by a neighbor who informed him that the locomotive was driving itself down the track. Apparently the rod linking the throttle and the valves had shrunk just enough as it cooled that the valves opened and the remaining steam pressure in the boiler was enough to send it creeping, albeit at less than walking pace, down the track.

Posted by: Grey Fox at January 23, 2013 04:32 PM (hJesl)

319 >Actualy... it does keep expanding.... l

Posted by: Romeo13 at January 23, 2013 04:30 PM (lZBBB)

Unobtanium

Posted by: Jones in CO at January 23, 2013 04:33 PM (8sCoq)

320 all you need do is open your eyes and see the world as it really is

Perhaps no one sees the world as it really is, hmmm.

What is the sound of one hand fapping?

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 23, 2013 04:33 PM (evdj2)

321 Asking why--

"no assets on alert" "on 9/11"

Posted by: tasker at January 23, 2013 04:33 PM (r2PLg)

322 Is that YouTube video of the guy with a chickenwire frame and some burning newspaper still out there?

'Cause that was some pure applied science, right there.

Proof. The hot, burning paper of truth. For all who will see to see.

A newspaper fire can't melt a galvanized steel mesh and it won't even deform when a fat guy stands on it.

Thus, 9/11 was an inside job.

Posted by: RoyalOil at January 23, 2013 04:33 PM (imtbm)

323 Fire lights crack-crack is whack.


SCIENCE!!

Posted by: Zombie Whitney Houston at January 23, 2013 04:33 PM (jvd3N)

324 Not for nothing, I was in OKC over the weekend and visited the Murrah Center Memorial. Very moving and well done. Absolutely heartbreaking things there about the daycare center and the children killed.
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at January 23, 2013 04:26 PM (kXoT0)


------------------------------------------------


It's all kind of ruined every April when some of the government workers that were in the building that day line up and besmirch all of us for not giving them more compensation money. I'm not going to mention skin color.

Posted by: Soona at January 23, 2013 04:34 PM (U9S0G)

325 please G-d, the truth will out

Posted by: thunderb at January 23, 2013 04:34 PM (Dnbau)

326
Posted by: Grey Fox at January 23, 2013 04:32 PM (hJesl)

The Monkey and the Engineer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBmZMdq-kwM

Posted by: Grateful Dead at January 23, 2013 04:34 PM (tDTwV)

327 BTW...

The fact that the GOP had to squirm over "Birthers" and not one Democrat ever had to answer for Truthers says a lot about how much we need to learn to play with the big boys.

As of 2006 or so, polls showed a PLURALITY (35%) of registered Democrats believed Bush knew about the 9/11 attacks beforehand. Opportunity missed, bros.

Posted by: CJ at January 23, 2013 04:34 PM (9KqcB)

328 The engine manufacturers sure went to a lot of trouble with cooling
systems and heat resistant exotic materials to keep the innards of their
engines from overheating and burning up.



A testament to the corrupting power of Big Metallurgy.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at January 23, 2013 04:34 PM (QKKT0)

329 >I've got a Conspiracy for you:



America is a center right country

Hispanics are naturally conservative

E pluribus unum

Posted by: Jones in CO at January 23, 2013 04:34 PM (8sCoq)

330 "Ice does not bend. Ice breaks." I think that's probably wrong. What about the smooth bending we see in glacier flows?

But 9-11 Trutherism is still horseshit. Here's the simplest rebuttal: Why would anybody (false-flaggers or whoever) crash the planes into the buildings AND detonate hidden demolition charges? Why BOTH? Isn't one OR the other good enough for their nefarious purposes?

Posted by: gp at January 23, 2013 04:35 PM (+Jpqc)

331 US calls for resumption of peace talks
White House spokesman says Israel must reignite stalled peace process regardless of coalition's make-up; stresses US as committed to Israel's security as ever

Hum? calls for resumption of fruitless talks and has not yet even bothered to congratulate Netanyahu yet?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 23, 2013 04:35 PM (jE38p)

332 What is the sound of one hand fapping?

---

*spankspankspankspankspank*

Posted by: Paul Reubens at January 23, 2013 04:35 PM (e0xKF)

333

The fire of Thai food will melt your colon.

Posted by: YIKES! at January 23, 2013 04:35 PM (mETGQ)

Posted by: #salonpitches at January 23, 2013 04:35 PM (yAor6)

335 **How could any of the these guys think they are going to score points on her when she could lie rings around them in her sleep. **

I think Hillary can only ape her husband's skill in this area. She's been set up by the educational/media complex to believe she's aristocracy or something so that any questioning of her is ... what's the phrase ... "it defies belief" or whatever she said to Petreaus.

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 23, 2013 04:35 PM (QxSug)

336 give curious a chance!

Posted by: #salonpitches at January 23, 2013 04:35 PM (yAor6)

337 A rod of cold-rolled (or hot-rolled even) measuring 2" will probably shrink on a very cold and frosty night.

I was in the pool!

Posted by: George Costanza at January 23, 2013 04:35 PM (ZKzrr)

338 110 --- "If only they had the technology to deform metal in the old west, horses could have had metal shoes instead of prada ones."
Posted by: Dirks Strewn at January 23, 2013 04:04 PM (VLifP)

Snort. I'll keep my Pradas and Manolo Blaniks if you don't mind.

Posted by: Sarah Jessica Parker at January 23, 2013 04:36 PM (C8mVl)

339 It's all kind of ruined every April when some of the
government workers that were in the building that day line up and
besmirch all of us for not giving them more compensation money. I'm not
going to mention skin color. Posted by: Soona at January 23, 2013 04:34 PM (U9S0G)
I was not aware they did that. Sort of like some of the 9/11 widows, huh?

Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at January 23, 2013 04:36 PM (kXoT0)

340 all the while the JEF arms Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt with four free F-16s and 200 free tanks. Which way is the wind blowing in the ME?

Posted by: thunderb at January 23, 2013 04:36 PM (Dnbau)

341 325 please G-d, the truth will out
Posted by: thunderb at January 23, 2013 04:34 PM (Dnbau)

_____________

Holy gawd--she could barely look him in the eyes.

Posted by: tasker at January 23, 2013 04:36 PM (r2PLg)

342 Hey I know this is off topic, but I just came out of a coma. Did I miss anyone being inaugurated in the past few days? Is Obama the president? Do the Dems still control the senate? Is the Benghazi "debacle" still relegated to the fringe yahoos? Is Boehner still an impotent boob? Is the GOP still in a shambles? Do all of your father's still suck cock by choice?
Just wondering.

Posted by: Low Information Woton at January 23, 2013 04:36 PM (nCwW1)

343 He assures me that there are steel farms in the midwest where different shapes and sizes are harvested.

You'll notice that our biggest cities were built in ancient groves of natural steel. We have yet to discover how the Indians caused rails of it to criss-cross the continent.

Posted by: t-bird at January 23, 2013 04:37 PM (FcR7P)

344 OT : Who elects a fucking Ginger Rep?

Posted by: garrett at January 23, 2013 04:37 PM (tDTwV)

345 These are the same people who call us anti-science, right?

Posted by: Warden at January 23, 2013 04:37 PM (32fP6)

346 Have a good friend, competent, business-oriented, somewhat conservative, who once repeated those magic words that fire can't melt steel.

I said yes, you can melt steel with fire, and additionally you don't have to melt steel to cause a structural failure. He took metalworking in school and I reminded him that he has welded before. We haven't argued about it since

Posted by: fb at January 23, 2013 04:37 PM (JVEmw)

347 I've got a Conspiracy for you:

America is a center right country
Hispanics are naturally conservative
E pluribus unum

Posted by: Jones in CO at January 23, 2013 04:34 PM (8sCoq)


Very big on big families and chruch going.
But low info voter.

Posted by: YIKES! at January 23, 2013 04:37 PM (mETGQ)

348 >>>"Ice does not bend. Ice breaks." I think that's probably wrong. What about the smooth bending we see in glacier flows?

that was mentioned above. I think (but don't know) that under sufficient pressure Ice I becomes Ice II or Ice III or something and has somewhat different properties.

In addition, ice turns to very cold (sub-zero) water under pressure, as in ice skating. So a glaciers will have lots of parts that are really just extremely cold water down deep in them.

Posted by: ace at January 23, 2013 04:37 PM (LCRYB)

349 I was told that the jet fuel couldn't have burned for long, since it was all consumed in the initial fireball. a fully loaded 757 carries several tons of fuel, right If all of that fuel went up at once wouldn;t it have pretty much blown the roof off of the WTC?

I was at the 9/11 memorial over the weekend. Very emotional
The new WTC will be impressive when finally complete, but damn, I miss those towers.

Posted by: Damn Sockpuppet at January 23, 2013 04:38 PM (YmPwQ)

350 Tasker where is Petraeus? Will he ever, really talk?

Posted by: thunderb at January 23, 2013 04:38 PM (Dnbau)

351 You'll notice that our biggest cities were built in ancient groves of natural steel. We have yet to discover how the Indians caused rails of it to criss-cross the continent.
Posted by: t-bird at January 23, 2013 04:37 PM (FcR7P)



Ancient Aliens. Duh.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 23, 2013 04:38 PM (VtjlW)

352 You'll notice that our biggest cities were built in
ancient groves of natural steel. We have yet to discover how the
Indians caused rails of it to criss-cross the continent. Posted by: t-bird at January 23, 2013 04:37 PM (FcR7P)

And hide them so well that it required vast numbers of Chinese coolies to uncover them!

Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at January 23, 2013 04:38 PM (kXoT0)

353 My name is Pug, and I'm a "refresh" addict. I got work to do, dammit!

Posted by: Pug Mahon at January 23, 2013 04:39 PM (K+mtQ)

354 Read between the lines.

Here is the bio of her last Republican questioner--

In 2003, he joined the United States Air Force. He was commissioned a 2nd Lieutenant in November 2003 and later awarded his pilot wings. Kinzinger was initially a KC-135 Stratotanker pilot and flew missions in South America, Guam, Iraq and Afghanistan. He later switched to flying the RC-26 spy plane and was stationed in Iraq twice.[3] Kinzinger has served in the Air Force Special Ops, Air Combat Command, Air Mobility Command, and Air National Guard and was later promoted to Major.[4]

Posted by: tasker at January 23, 2013 04:39 PM (r2PLg)

355

You ever hear of Lysenkoism ace, to go back to your earlier post on Maxism.

This is the same shit, it's just the kernel at this point.

People think that the earth, if it isn't cold in winter, is somehow heating up and being all kind sof damaged, because...science.

Yes, you can plant wheat anywhere and Gyorgy, watch wheat grow! Look! Wheat grow!

Ah, here is the impressive CV of that moron who wrote this...almost as nice as Terry Moron's.

Personal

Born in Madison, New Jersey,[5] he attended Georgetown University, where he studied with theatre professor Donn B. Murphy. He teaches creative writing at Manhattanville College, along with Jonathan Tropper. A longtime resident of New York City, he now lives in New Paltz, New York with his family.

Posted by: Rev dr E buzz at January 23, 2013 04:39 PM (raGXo)

356 Tasker where is Petraeus?

---

$10 says "getting some strange".

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 23, 2013 04:39 PM (e0xKF)

357

OK, well, since we are asking strange questions...


If man evolved from monkeys and apes, why do we still have monkeys and apes?

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 23, 2013 04:39 PM (1Y+hH)

358 *See* that?

Posted by: tasker at January 23, 2013 04:39 PM (r2PLg)

359 all the while the JEF arms Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt with four free F-16s and 200 free tanks. Which way is the wind blowing in the ME?
Posted by: thunderb at January 23, 2013 04:36 PM (Dnbau)


It's foul and nasty Khamsin blowing from out of the arabian desert and Washington DC.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 23, 2013 04:39 PM (jE38p)

360 Teddy Roosevelt having the Coolies dig the Grand Canyon is a lasting tribute to their hardy race.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 23, 2013 04:40 PM (evdj2)

361
Most of the Troofers are confusing ignition temperature at atomospheric temperatures,pressuresand stoichiometery with flame temperature. Once a substance gets above ignition temperature, it will burn as long as it has oxygen. I happen to know alot about jet fuel and other diesel like fuels. The more oxygen that is available, the hotter the fuel combusts.(generally unless you get past the lean burn limit) Think aboutabellows at a blacksmiths forge, it gets REALLY hot because you add alot of excess air. That being said, jet turbine blades have to be made of tianium becauseif they were steel, they wouldMELT. So, yes, the fire could have been and washot enough to weaken the structure of the towers. Also, remember that there was roughly 40 stories of steel and concrete sitting on the weakend I beams. It wouldnt have taken much to weeken the beams to a point of failure. And if anyone asks, I am an actual scientist/engineer at a national lab (and Iam also a combustion expert).


Posted by: Steve #2 at January 23, 2013 04:40 PM (nPsjv)

362 You'll notice that our biggest cities were built in ancient groves of
natural steel. We have yet to discover how the Indians caused rails of
it to criss-cross the continent.



The skill of the iron bonsai master was legend. Often working for months on end, he would patiently bend and coax the growing ore into useful implements and artistic pieces of almost unimaginable complexity.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at January 23, 2013 04:40 PM (QKKT0)

363 "Very big on big families and chruch going.
But low info voter."

OK there are definitely low-info voters but writing off a demographic as that cuz they generally aren't conservative is a little much

Posted by: JDP at January 23, 2013 04:40 PM (60GaT)

364 If fire could melt steel they wouldn't have to mine nails from the moon. Duh.

Posted by: Salon at January 23, 2013 04:40 PM (SzAZ7)

365 You can actually melt steel, it just takes a bunch of union guys to do it. Got a problem with that?

Posted by: Roy at January 23, 2013 04:40 PM (VndSC)

366 **The fact that the GOP had to squirm over "Birthers" and not one Democrat ever had to answer for Truthers says a lot about how much we need to learn to play with the big boys. **

part of the larger issue that since GHWB, we haven't been good at shaming leftwing bad behavior. It's now basically assumed that lefties can and will act in borderline criminal manner while saying the utmost stupid stuff.

stupid truthers.

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 23, 2013 04:40 PM (QxSug)

367 Posted by: ace at January 23, 2013 04:37 PM (LCRYB)

Ace,
Water is one of the few substances in the universe whose liquid form is less dense than it's solid form, leading to many of the crazy contradictions in it.
It's really not a good example for anything, because it's so messed up. It's the exception to every rule.

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at January 23, 2013 04:41 PM (W8k4K)

368 I usually up the ante on the Truthers - What was in Sandy Burglar's Socks?

Posted by: Jean at January 23, 2013 04:41 PM (7PjX7)

369 thunderb:
Tasker where is Petraeus? Will he ever, really talk?

Yeah, the public deserves to learn the facts about his affair. We demand answers!

Posted by: sandy burger at January 23, 2013 04:41 PM (rm2L3)

370 356 Tasker where is Petraeus?

---

$10 says "getting some strange".
Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 23, 2013 04:39 PM (e0xKF)


_____________________

LOL!--shit I am so demoralized.

Posted by: tasker at January 23, 2013 04:41 PM (r2PLg)

371 Science is hard....! But not as hard as welding aluminum, you start putting the heat to something firm and hard and then, like instantly, nothing more than a puddle of shameful, shameful memories...eh, what were we talking about?

Posted by: Rob in Katy at January 23, 2013 04:41 PM (gdGJ1)

372 In addition, ice turns to very cold (sub-zero) water under pressure, as in ice skating. So a glaciers will have lots of parts that are really just extremely cold water down deep in them.

Posted by: ace at January 23, 2013 04:37 PM (LCRYB)



Hell, look at the underwater brine lakes. The world is stranger than we can imagine.


http://youtu.be/fnkHRtpTztc


(Yes, yes, I know it has that horrible Malthusian toad narrating it but it's still amazing)

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 23, 2013 04:41 PM (VtjlW)

373 borderline criminal manner

---

Only "borderline"?

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 23, 2013 04:41 PM (e0xKF)

374 Most of the Troofers are confusing ignition temperature at atomospheric temperatures, pressures and stoichiometery with flame temperature.

Burn the polysyllabic witch!

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 23, 2013 04:42 PM (evdj2)

375 Maybe I am a moron, but, my Grandpa was a steel worker. His job was to melt the steel with fire and pour the liquid steel into a mold. Like this: http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/05/steel-poorman.jpg

Posted by: Marie at January 23, 2013 04:42 PM (H50jQ)

376 How do these lefties propose to destroy our guns if fire can't melt steel?

WooHoo loophole!!!!

Posted by: polyhomer at January 23, 2013 04:42 PM (m2CN7)

377 maybe a salon is no longer a place where ideas are discussed but a place where ladies get their hair done in the afternoon and talk shit

Posted by: thunderb at January 23, 2013 04:42 PM (Dnbau)

378
Hillary's testimony: Details, shmetails!

Posted by: soothsayer at January 23, 2013 04:42 PM (uff2W)

379 Most of the Troofers are confusing ignition temperature at atomospheric temperatures, pressures and stoichiometery with flame temperature.

Wow, you are giving them a LOT of credit.

Posted by: t-bird at January 23, 2013 04:42 PM (FcR7P)

380 93 Scientifically speaking, the only thing that could have melted the steel in the World Trade Center is the molten lava of an active volcano. We're investigating the possibility that an underground pipeline was built by Hallbutiron from Mauna Kea to New York before 9/11.

---------

It'd be easier and cheaper to just rent time in the Weehawken Burrito Tunnel (google it).

Posted by: Citizen Anachronda at January 23, 2013 04:43 PM (IrbU4)

381 Holy crap. Hildebeast will not give up the video excuse for Benghazi.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at January 23, 2013 04:43 PM (UOM48)

382 >As with JFK’s “Magic Bullet,” the official version asks us to pretend that the laws of physics do not exist. <

What laws would those be Galileo?

Honestly, this reads like the ACLU of science wrote it using their edition of the Periodic Chart.

Posted by: Marcus at January 23, 2013 04:43 PM (GGCsk)

383 in the big picture, the sandy hook stuff is so weird but not impossible. I heard the US once faked the sinking of a defecting russian ballistic missile submarine!

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 23, 2013 04:43 PM (QxSug)

384
>>But not as hard as welding aluminum

It's all in the atmosphere.

Posted by: garrett at January 23, 2013 04:43 PM (tDTwV)

385 Its sad that now we know, should aliens come down from the heavens and descend upon the offices of Salon and declare "TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER!!!!" they will be escorted to Rosie O'Donnell.

Posted by: © Sponge at January 23, 2013 04:44 PM (xmcEQ)

386 I was not aware they did that. Sort of like some of the 9/11 widows, huh?
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at January 23, 2013 04:36 PM (kXoT0)


-----------------------------------------------------


Yup. Tragedy welfare.

Posted by: Soona at January 23, 2013 04:44 PM (U9S0G)

387 Water is one of the few substances in the universe whose liquid form is less dense than it's solid form, leading to many of the crazy contradictions in it.It's really not a good example for anything, because it's so messed up. It's the exception to every rule.
Posted by: tsrblke (work) at January 23, 2013 04:41 PM (W8k4K)

Wait. I thought ice floats because it is less dense.

Posted by: Invictus at January 23, 2013 04:44 PM (OQpzc)

388 my Grandpa was a steel worker. His job was to melt the steel with fire and pour the liquid steel into a mold. Like this:

You fell for that?! He was drinking all day. Hey, Santa Claus is coming to town, too.

Posted by: Terry Moron at January 23, 2013 04:44 PM (FcR7P)

389 too lazy to review all the comments but the "cleaning up" is still not quite correct. metals generally are fully solid under heat, it's just that their properties (strength being an important one in this case) change. while a steel beam may hold up a building just fine under normal conditions, it may not be able to when heated (even locally --- chain, weakest link, some dis-assembly required) to, say, 400 deg F.

Posted by: jd at January 23, 2013 04:44 PM (y53d1)

390 You think you're pretty smart young man but I know, it's Joos, all the way down.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 23, 2013 04:44 PM (evdj2)

391 383 in the big picture, the sandy hook stuff is so weird but not impossible. I heard the US once faked the sinking of a defecting russian ballistic missile submarine!

---

That is a vicious lie!

Posted by: Mark Remy at January 23, 2013 04:44 PM (e0xKF)

392 didn't pertraues get a "get out of testifying card" because he had an affair?

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 23, 2013 04:45 PM (QxSug)

393 We need a new post on this women in combat thing... Obama Inauguration + 1

Posted by: Andrew at January 23, 2013 04:45 PM (HS3dy)

394 Do you really want to blow their minds? Have them look up Sherman's Neckties. The conspiracy goes back to the Civil War!!

Posted by: Ken Begg at January 23, 2013 04:45 PM (JZS5g)

395 223Some dick dem just compared hillary to JFK?Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 23, 2013 04:18 PM (jE38p)Their complexions are 'probly similar.

Posted by: Mr. Glacier at January 23, 2013 04:45 PM (sHqf1)

396 Maybe I am a moron, but, my Grandpa was a steel
worker. His job was to melt the steel with fire and pour the liquid
steel into a mold. Posted by: Marie at January 23, 2013 04:42 PM (H50jQ)

My Dad was a welder, his job was to fuse two pieces of steel pipe together. He used an acetylene TORCH to do it. Dear Lord, did he know he was doing the impossible?

Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at January 23, 2013 04:45 PM (kXoT0)

397 See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27s_neckties

Posted by: TANSTAAFL at January 23, 2013 04:46 PM (tqAT4)

398
Wait. I thought ice floats because it is less dense.

That's witches.

Posted by: medievil garrett at January 23, 2013 04:46 PM (tDTwV)

399 Every now and then I'm willing to write off every conspiracy theory and then boom. Fast and Furious.

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 23, 2013 04:46 PM (t06LC)

400 My Dad was a welder, his job was to fuse two pieces of steel pipe together. He used an acetylene TORCH to do it. Dear Lord, did he know he was doing the impossible?

---

Fucking welding, how does it work?

Posted by: Insane Troll Posse at January 23, 2013 04:46 PM (e0xKF)

401 357 If man evolved from monkeys and apes, why do we still have monkeys and apes?

------

If Torchwood evolved from Dr. Who, why do we still have Dr. Who?

Posted by: Citizen Anachronda at January 23, 2013 04:46 PM (xGZ+b)

402 SOme cock suking dem Ami Bera???? Just endorsed hillary for President. yeah a class act????? what a fuck wad

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 23, 2013 04:47 PM (jE38p)

403 If Torchwood evolved from Dr. Who, why do we still have Dr. Who?

Inertia.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 23, 2013 04:47 PM (evdj2)

404 Tank barrels can droop? What, they're firing at Rosie O'Donnel?

Posted by: Northern Lurker at January 23, 2013 04:47 PM (GLIve)

405 Meremortal:
>> If man evolved from monkeys and apes, why do we still have monkeys and apes?

Well, the idea is that man did not evolve from modern-day "monkeys and apes". We evolved from primitive primates (which don't exist any more). Modern day monkeys and apes also evolved from those same primitive primates. According to evolutionary biology, present-day monkeys and apes are our distant cousins, not our ancestors.

Posted by: sandy burger at January 23, 2013 04:47 PM (rm2L3)

406 Now that you mention it, Terry, he always did smell like whiskey and beer.

Posted by: Marie at January 23, 2013 04:47 PM (H50jQ)

407 Posted by: Invictus at January 23, 2013 04:44 PM (OQpzc)

oops, I typed that backwards. Yeah, sorry, I'm doing about 3 things right now.

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at January 23, 2013 04:47 PM (W8k4K)

408 If Torchwood evolved from Dr. Who, why do we still have Dr. Who?



Posted by: Citizen Anachronda at January 23, 2013 04:46 PM (xGZ+b)

Because Doctor Who doesn't suck.

Posted by: MadisonConservative at January 23, 2013 04:47 PM (Y/HG5)

409
If man evolved from monkeys and apes, why do we still have monkeys and apes?

Once we take care of Sundance, we'll begin rounding up the monkeys.
Patience.

Posted by: garrett at January 23, 2013 04:48 PM (tDTwV)

410 Tank barrels can droop? What, they're firing at Rosie O'Donnel? Posted by: Northern Lurker at January 23, 2013 04:47 PM (GLIve)

Would NOT your tank droop in such a case?

Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at January 23, 2013 04:49 PM (kXoT0)

411 398
Wait. I thought ice floats because it is less dense.

That's witches.
Posted by: medievil garrett at January 23, 2013 04:46 PM (tDTwV)

___________________

Water has a unique molecular structure and when it freezes it forms a crystalline structure.

Some b.s.like that.

I can't remember the rest. It has a bent structure to begin with because __________.

crap.

Posted by: tasker at January 23, 2013 04:49 PM (r2PLg)

412
Fucking welding, how does it work?


Freemasons and Jooo banksters

Posted by: luaP noR at January 23, 2013 04:49 PM (FkupK)

413 are they going to be calling other witnesses in light of her testimony? Rebuttal witnesses to impeach her testimony? Do they have any? Can I hope?

Posted by: thunderb at January 23, 2013 04:49 PM (Dnbau)

414

And yes, here is a great test brought to you by the wanna be elite idiots at Democrat Underwear. That's some powerful genius right there.

http://tinyurl.com/jlqbs

"Can a jet fuel/hydrocarbon fire collapse a steel structure? An experiment."

"I set up the following experiment using steel rabbit fencing as the steel structure supporting a heavy cement block."


Posted by: Rev dr E buzz at January 23, 2013 04:49 PM (raGXo)

415
OK there are definitely low-info voters but writing
off a demographic as that cuz they generally aren't conservative is a
little much


Posted by: JDP at January 23, 2013 04:40 PM (60GaT)

Nope, not writing them off.
I view as an opportunity.
I'm doing my measly part.



Posted by: YIKES! at January 23, 2013 04:49 PM (mETGQ)

416 it's as if these dolts had never seen pictures from the old Pennsylvania steel mills, with the big ladles of hot molten whatever it was...used to be in textbooks. do they just skip over all that industrial history now?? It used to be a big deal. like the US was proud of it or something.

Posted by: jeanne at January 23, 2013 04:49 PM (GdalM)

417 Godzilla could melt steel, that all I need to know.


Posted by: dananjcon at January 23, 2013 04:49 PM (jvd3N)

418 If man evolved from monkeys and apes, why do we still have monkeys and apes?

Women in the Third World sometimes give birth to monkeys and apes instead of humans and those births keep the monkey populations stable. It's called genetic recapitulation or something. Henry Waxman is a good example of this.

Posted by: Mr. Science at January 23, 2013 04:49 PM (QKKT0)

419 The skill of the iron bonsai master was legend.

Completely off-topic, an old twenty-minute video of how watches work. The craftsmanship was/is incredible: http://tinyurl.com/adozqtj

Posted by: t-bird at January 23, 2013 04:50 PM (FcR7P)

420
Appropos of nothing really: You can bend wood, which can make some pretty cool furniture. Just thought I would add some Science!

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 23, 2013 04:50 PM (p/cQy)

421 are they going to be calling other witnesses in light of her testimony? Rebuttal witnesses to impeach her testimony? Do they have any? Can I hope?
Posted by: thunderb at January 23, 2013 04:49 PM (Dnbau)


Nope, they will roll over and play dead. That's my guess

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 23, 2013 04:50 PM (jE38p)

422 OK, well, since we are asking strange questions...

If man evolved from monkeys and apes, why do we still have monkeys and apes?

Slower cousins?

Posted by: rickb223 at January 23, 2013 04:50 PM (80/E+)

423
Posted by: Aurvant at January 23, 2013 04:24 PM (NPa5i)

I have seen rails bust out of ties in hot weather due to expansion.

Posted by: Cicero Kid at January 23, 2013 04:50 PM (sHqf1)

424 "No one truly knows the exact melting point of steel, and anybody that tries to tell you they know, they are humanist heretics that reject the Word of God. The melting point of steel is a lie from the pits of hell. Same with genetics and carbon dating. Lies, lies and more lies from the pits of hell. Now, if you'll excuse me, there's a Space, Science and Technology Committee meeting that I have to attend. And Obama is a Kenyan pedophile with a radical Islamic mindset that was not born on U.S. soil. Okay - gotta go - see ya."
U.S. Representative Paul Broun (R) Georgia.

The (R) is for Retarded

Posted by: Low Information Woton at January 23, 2013 04:51 PM (nCwW1)

425 If Torchwood evolved from Dr. Who, why do we still have Dr. Who?



Posted by: Citizen Anachronda at January 23, 2013 04:46 PM (xGZ+b)


Couldn't Dr. Who travel in time?

Posted by: © Sponge at January 23, 2013 04:51 PM (xmcEQ)

426 @418

Thats bullshit.
Thats part mole.

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 23, 2013 04:51 PM (t06LC)

427 "We need a new post on this women in combat thing"

i was thinking the same thing

then again i get the sense that i'm more conservative on issues like that than this site is (not meant as a diss btw, its prerogative)

where i was confused was i thought there was a recent court case on this and i didn't know if that's something different from what Panetta changed

Posted by: JDP at January 23, 2013 04:51 PM (60GaT)

428 Call me a simpleton but 2 airliners crashed into the twin towers and shortly after they came crashing down.
A crazed social outcast went into an elementary school with sub par security and murdered children and teachers.

Which of these supposed conspiracies rises to the socially transcendent relevance of a good blood doping Orca serial or a fake internet girlfriend's tragic death?

Let's try to focus people.

Posted by: ontherocks at January 23, 2013 04:52 PM (aZ6ew)

429 Fucking welding, how does it work?

Those little rods welders hold in their off-hand? Glue sticks.

Posted by: t-bird at January 23, 2013 04:52 PM (FcR7P)

430 425 Couldn't Dr. Who travel in time?

---------

Oh, sure! Throw that in my face!

Posted by: Citizen Anachronda at January 23, 2013 04:52 PM (FzhYM)

431 As metals get hotter they get more prone to inelastic deformations under stress.

IOW - they get more bendy and less springy

Posted by: @PurpAv at January 23, 2013 04:52 PM (GlnE7)

432
Recycling, it's all been a fuckin lie man!

They take that shit and rather than melt it, they throw it away, in AFRICA, further showing how racist WHITES ARE!!!!

Is it any coincidence that Obunghole annouced chicks can fight on the front lines now, and that squat shrew Hilly going on the rampage in front of Southern WHITE MEN?


Posted by: Rev dr E buzz at January 23, 2013 04:53 PM (raGXo)

433 OK, well, since we are asking strange questions... If man evolved from monkeys and apes, why do we still have monkeys and apes?
To take DrewMs place as a coblogger , duh.

Posted by: polyhomer at January 23, 2013 04:53 PM (m2CN7)

434 leave it to some troll to turn this around on the Right

this site is a real hotbed of firebreathing Southern evangelical sentiment, you got 'em man

Posted by: JDP at January 23, 2013 04:53 PM (60GaT)

435 >Appropos of nothing really: You can bend wood, which can make some pretty cool furniture. Just thought I would add some Science!


Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 23, 2013 04:50 PM (p/cQy)

HELLO steam can't bend wood GOOGLE IT PEOPLE

Posted by: Rosie O'Fatfuck at January 23, 2013 04:53 PM (8sCoq)

436 We need to throw Hillary in the lake to see if she floats. Science!

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 23, 2013 04:54 PM (p/cQy)

437 Came late to this thread, had a meeting.

First - I am a licensed professional engineer whose brother was supposed to be in tower 2 that day. My first thought when I heard was to pray for his safety. Turned out he had a doctor's appointment and was late. Once I knew he was safe and was watching news coverage with another engineer, we decided quickly that those buildings would fall. Jet fuel burns much higher than 451 deg F. Structural steel loses roughly 30% of its strength at 800F. Plus a large portion of structure was missing. Combine the loss of strength, missing structure and added brittleness due to heat and it was a matter of time.
Anyone who does not believe that cannot understand the relatively simple physics and chemistry involved.

Posted by: RKinRoanoke at January 23, 2013 04:54 PM (DOEXI)

438 414 And yes, here is a great test brought to you by the wanna be elite
idiots at Democrat Underwear. That's some powerful genius right there.
---
He should have put his hand into the fire to see how hot it was.

Posted by: RioBravo at January 23, 2013 04:55 PM (eEfYn)

439
>>You can bend wood

Hurts like hell when you do, though.

Posted by: garrett at January 23, 2013 04:55 PM (tDTwV)

440 The interesting thing about steel is that it has many more (useful) phase transitions that the simplified "solid-liquid-gas" example.

It's one of the Black Arts of Alchemy.

Posted by: Fritz at January 23, 2013 04:55 PM (w3+gB)

441 humans and those births keep the monkey populations stable. It's called genetic recapitulation or something. Henry Waxman is a good example of this.
Posted by: Mr. Science at January 23, 2013 04:49 PM (QKKT0)

How does the ob/gyn bill for pulling off the tail?

I'm still waiting to see the missing link skeleton. Or did they just magic from ape to human? And why wouldn't the ape mom bash the mutant against a tree?

Posted by: Invictus at January 23, 2013 04:55 PM (OQpzc)

442 11 fire generated by burning jet fuel is not hot enough to melt steel.


It doesn't have to melt the steel. There was already enough structural damage to the building from the impact to weaken the corner. Add to that, the winds fueling the fire like a bellow. I can't remember how long it took, but it seemed like over an hour for the floors above the impact points to collapse. Once they did, there was no way the lower floors would hold that weight crashing down on them like that.

And, just what does any of that have to do with it?

Posted by: Journotwit Masters Degree in Interpersonal Communications at January 23, 2013 04:56 PM (p4U6S)

443 Every fourth grader from a steel town knows about molten steel.

Posted by: obladioblada at January 23, 2013 04:57 PM (EHrOH)

444 By the way, Twitchy would be a hundred times more
effective if they turned these little nuggets of the left's stupidity
nastiness into 30 second television ads.

Force them to smell their own $*^.


Posted by: Serious Cat at January 23, 2013 04:08 PM (UypUQ)


This cannot be emphasized too much. Destroying leftest credibility by making them look like moon baying retards is an absolutely essential tactic in convincing the American Public that these idiots should be laughed at.

Ridicule and Mockery of the opposition is always a wining tactic. The left always uses it, and the right should have always been using it. Make them a laughing stock, and they will not only be cowed, but fewer people will bother to listen to them.

Win Win.



Posted by: DiogenesLamp at January 23, 2013 04:57 PM (bb5+k)

445 Cheney...

Cheney...

Cheney...

Posted by: Ferrous Bueller at January 23, 2013 04:57 PM (Y5I9o)

446 Hurts like hell when you do, though.
Posted by: garrett at January 23, 2013 04:55 PM (tDTwV)

Actually, Amish, or somebody like that, furniture makers do it all the time. They use steam to heat it and it bends like hot plastic.

Posted by: Invictus at January 23, 2013 04:57 PM (OQpzc)

447 Fire melts steel handily but only if applied by a secret method know only to the Joos.

Posted by: Mr. Fucking Science at January 23, 2013 04:58 PM (SzAZ7)

448 Curious: What is Ace'smetallurgical background?Was he ever employed by one of the major metal manufacturing companies? Did he study, live, do business or charity in a steel-making part of the country?

Posted by: Terry Moran at January 23, 2013 05:00 PM (noH01)

449 we need a 'things that are great' thread

Posted by: Jones in CO at January 23, 2013 05:02 PM (8sCoq)

450 DiogenesLamp:
>> Ridicule and Mockery of the opposition is always a wining tactic.

Sadly, yes, a point completely lost on GOP tools like Karl Rove.

The leftist peanut gallery braws and guffaws at nonsense like "binders of women", and it works. That's how you reach low information voters, alas.

Posted by: sandy burger at January 23, 2013 05:02 PM (rm2L3)

451 Again, kind of off topic, but I was wondering where Romney was during the inauguration. Anybody?

Posted by: Low Information Woton at January 23, 2013 05:02 PM (nCwW1)

452 Hurts like hell when you do, though. Posted by: garrett at January 23, 2013 04:55 PM (tDTwV) Actually, Amish, or somebody like that, furniture makers do it all the time. They use steam to heat it and it bends like hot plastic.
Posted by: Invictus at January 23, 2013 04:57 PM (OQpzc)

That's okay garrett, I got it.

Posted by: polyhomer at January 23, 2013 05:03 PM (m2CN7)

453 This is simple firematics taught to every FDNY fireman in the Academy.

As per Taxpayers bulletin (strip mall fires) in regards to steel beams and columns

3.6.3 When these steel beams are heated from 1000 F to 1500 F, their yield strength
drops dramatically and they start to soften and fail. This temperature can be
reached in five to ten minutes at a fire and it is only a matter of time at an
uncontrolled fire (thirty minutes for the smaller beam sections), until these beams
can be heated beyond their strength limitations.

A helpful link also from a well respected Fire Chief who knows a thing or two about structural collapse (hint: he wrote a few books on it)
http://vincentdunn.com/wtc.html

Posted by: Mose Humphreys at January 23, 2013 05:03 PM (31g7w)

454
Hillary is just wrapping up her testimony to the House.

Based strictly on merit, Hillary should be President and our congressmen should be selling hot dogs from carts on various expressways across the land. No Fucking Contest.

Four people die in a bungled, inept and criminally negligent situation in Libya, all under the management of Hillary Clinton, and she comes out as a hero. Somehow, the ill prepared questioners came off as a pack of idiots who wanted to smear this poor woman who flew over a million miles for her country.

We deserve to lose.

Posted by: jwest at January 23, 2013 05:03 PM (ZDsRL)

455 Well of course this is the best conspiracy theory because all the theorists blame bush, don't you sillies know this?

Posted by: Uncle joey at January 23, 2013 05:03 PM (/b8+5)

456 What gallium to believe that Ace doesn't know what he's talking about? I mean, he's as mercurial as the next guy, but his opinions are pure gold. I wouldn't pay a nickel to hear what Terry Moran had to say.

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at January 23, 2013 05:04 PM (Ec6wH)

457

Man, I tell ya, those buildings should never have fuckin collapsed!

Just cuz two gigantic planes flew into them means nothing!

NOTHING!

They were designed for that to happen!

YES THEY WERE!

JEWS!


Posted by: Rev dr E buzz at January 23, 2013 05:04 PM (raGXo)

458
BTW, looks like it is tihs guy who is the genius.

https://twitter.com/gregolear

Posted by: Rev dr E buzz at January 23, 2013 05:05 PM (raGXo)

459
The interesting thing about steel is that it has many more (useful)
phase transitions that the simplified "solid-liquid-gas" example.


US Steel documented and researched about 200 different crystalline forms for it early on too. "steel" is a generic term for stuff that ranges from mundane tuna cans to exotic miracle shit.

Posted by: @PurpAv at January 23, 2013 05:07 PM (GlnE7)

460 Man, she did some job of deflecting everything away from the administration and herself.

Those two folks who testified under oath should be fired since they lied. That's basically how it boils down. And Rice, Rice is a superlative employee doing their job when things were unknown.

The republicans got it wrong, again.

Posted by: Uncle joey at January 23, 2013 05:07 PM (/b8+5)

461 Posted by: sandy burger at January 23, 2013 05:02 PM (rm2L3)

Its hard to go against one's nature. It definitely has to be learned trait by the right. Conservatives are rule followers and traditionalists.They don't have to be the original mocker but at least they should learn to be better counter punchers when it comes to ridicule and mockery.

Posted by: polyhomer at January 23, 2013 05:08 PM (m2CN7)

462 Reardon metal would have withstood the attacks.

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at January 23, 2013 05:08 PM (Ec6wH)

463 How lucky for builders that those steel girders come out of the mines already in girder form, and at just the right height!

Posted by: LexisTexas at January 23, 2013 05:09 PM (kPFAg)

464 The republicans exhibit all the symptoms of the wife in a spouse abuse scenario.

Posted by: Caustic at January 23, 2013 05:09 PM (/b8+5)

465 questioners came off as a pack of idiots

Never ask a question if you don't already know the answer.

Posted by: @PurpAv at January 23, 2013 05:11 PM (GlnE7)

466 All you have to do is take the blue pill and wake up in your comfy progressive bed. Take the blue pill, take the blue pill, reality is a bitch.

Posted by: parker at January 23, 2013 05:11 PM (9p/f5)

467 Apparently Ace doesn't know he needs to be credentialed to know what his lying fucking eyes tell him.

Posted by: Fritz at January 23, 2013 05:12 PM (w3+gB)

468 Posted by: sandy burger

Hey Mr 'national security adviser'! don't you have a dead drop to do somewhere? Like some copied documents you stole?

I still am shit-shocked over this event in our wonderful recent history. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER holy shit! .. and the media pretended they didn't understand what was going on.

Shit shocked

Posted by: Just the Facts at January 23, 2013 05:18 PM (2U+qM)

469 The arguments about fire melting steel, or at what point iron (or steel) melts, are interesting, but they are tangentially relevant ... and they divert time and energy away from ridiculing the Troofers and the Leftists, and their chemically-mind-altered view of Reality ...

Let's look at 2 things:

1) The structural design of a building, in this case a very tall sky scraper (WTC 1 and 2), and how much load it was (they were) rated to hold ... per floor, and

2) How much strength/stiffness does steel lose as it is heated, from, say, 75degF to perhaps 900degF.


The WTC buildings, as with almost all buildings, have load ratings. The engineers calculate the area of each floor available for occupation, figure out about how many people, desks, book cases, etc. will be present, multiply by a factor of safety (maybe 2?), then design accordingly. Wait, don't forget to factor in the loads from the stories above.

This means that certain things cannot be allowed above ground level, at least not without some serious structural redesign. I know of a 2nd-story floor, in a 3 story building, that was buckling. It seems that someone had installed a library archive, the sort where the shelves are moved by handwheel to gain access, on the floor ... they were at the design load limit.


Now for the temperature question: figuring that a steel I-beam has a certain amount of strength at 75deg F (100%), what happens at 900degF? Is it perhaps half as strong?

How hot was the fire from the jet fuel, and then subsequently the paper, carpeting and of the flammable items? Maybe 1200deg F? Maybe more?

Check out the ratings of small fire safes at Home Depot ... 1 hour @ 1200degF is a typical (and low) rating.


So: a very large fire, one that initially almost completely covers the entire floor, and maybe a couple more, is started at about the 80th floor in a 100 story skyscraper, and burns for an hour.

What is the probability that this is enough to cause the steel I-beams in the burning areas to lose enough strength to bend under the load of an additional 20 storys, then break their fasteners ... and then disconnect and fall?

... around 100%?

Posted by: Arbalest at January 23, 2013 05:18 PM (KUsRN)

470 Truthers:

Take a 4 sticks of cold butter, place upright on narrow end in form of a square, 2 of them in pan on a stove.

Put a hardback on top of the column supports, substantial in weight, but easily supported by the cold butter.

Heat the butter.

In this case, its not a perfect analogy, because my guess is the bars of butter need to be much more slender to appropriately represent the steel veams (maybe cut them into quarters, kengthwise) , but basically what you are trying to see is how the decrease in ability to carry a load due to temperature rise will cause buckling of the columns. The material does not melt--it just decreases in yield strength, to a point below that required to support the load it is under (I think I have the terminolgy right when I say decrease in yield strength--I'm really a fluids man now.)

It also might have been the case that the hot structural members (floor stringers, load bearing columns) expanded so much that they exceeded the capacity of the connector plates to take the increased stress--perhaps expansion of the floor stringers took out load bearing columns with a transverse force that could not be resisted. This is called "thermal stress", and is one reason why bridges have expansion joints.

Some other things I would be curious about if I was doing an engineering investigation--did a "bellows" effect, due to the WTC being akin to a chimney (combustion products rising, air entering from below), increase the draft, and hence the heat of the fire above what you would expect static tests of jet fuel to do?

Also--from "Mechanical Metallurgy: Principles and Applications", Meyers and Chawla, pg 81: "...if the material is deformed at temperatures slightly below the melting point, the temperature rise might be enough to cause localized melting." Not sure it wasa factor, but just goes to show that in engineering there is usually a lot of devils in the details.

Something I am a little more positive on--from page 659, "Creep and Creep Testing":
"The material, in spite of initially resisiting the applied loads, undergoes anelastic deformation; its dimensions changing in time."

And from Pg 660
"Creep is characterized by a slow flow of the material, it behaves as if it were viscous."

Creep is actually a serious limiting factor for getting higher performance out of jet engines, because the turbine blades can't take the tensile loads from centrifugal "force". They deform over time.

I'm not a structures man, because I jettisoned most of that knowledge the day the class was over, but nothing about the WTC *ever* struck me as strange--neither the collapse of the fire-ravaged levels, or the destruction of the entire building due to impact loads from floors above on one floor after another.

Posted by: K. at January 23, 2013 05:19 PM (Pm0Xy)

471 I'm not a smithy, or engaged in any of the metallurgical trades, but "malleability" seems right. I have seen the term "deformed" used in the context of making beer cans. It refers to a process using force, though, not heat. Separately, I think it's also used to refer to the moral state of customers who have rapidly consumed a lot of the product.

Posted by: Bud Norton at January 23, 2013 05:21 PM (6cOMd)

472 >>>What is the probability that this is enough to cause the steel I-beams
in the burning areas to lose enough strength to bend under the load of
an additional 20 storys, then break their fasteners ... and then
disconnect and fall?



... around 100%?<<<

Don't forget that skyscrapers typically aren't designed as a landing pad for airborne jets.

Posted by: Fritz at January 23, 2013 05:23 PM (w3+gB)

473 The leftist peanut gallery braws and guffaws at nonsense like "binders of women", and it works. That's how you reach low information voters, alas.


Posted by: sandy burger at January 23, 2013 05:02 PM (rm2L3)


If you want to connect with stupid people who vote, you have to make your opponents look stupid. It's childish, but so are a lot of Democrat voters.

Ridicule works.





Posted by: DiogenesLamp at January 23, 2013 05:26 PM (bb5+k)

474 Yeah right Ace. Metalbecoming malleableas it heats. Hah.
This is straight out of the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion.

Posted by: Areopagitica at January 23, 2013 05:28 PM (1wR1S)

475 472 Fritz,

unless of course you are on Marvel Earth....

Posted by: sven10077 at January 23, 2013 05:30 PM (LRFds)

476 I wonder what Salon would think of conspiracy theorists who point out the implausibility of a fertilizer bomb being so powerful that it can pulverize reinforced concrete all the way through a building, but not powerful enough to even break the windows of any other buildings around?

Of all the conspiracy theories out there, the "9/11 Truthers" have the stupidest - but since it's the only one they can blame Bush for, they've got to go with what they've got.

Posted by: Norcross at January 23, 2013 05:31 PM (MbUq6)

477
Can you believe that we're actually debating whether or not fire affects steel, and that buildings struck by gigantic planes might collapse?

But no man! There were charges placed by Halliburton right inside THE BUILDING MAN!!!


Posted by: Rev dr E buzz at January 23, 2013 05:32 PM (raGXo)

478 Ref 467

Yeah you could figure this out by getting a chemical engineering degree or you could have at a much younger age say 10 years old watched a few episodes of Gunsmoke

FWIW I am a chemical engineer

Posted by: ADK46er at January 23, 2013 05:33 PM (Ignq0)

479 I blame the fluoride in the water. You just can't listen to the left's bromides anymore. We'll never be able to iron out our differences.

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at January 23, 2013 05:36 PM (Ec6wH)

480 Where was Romney during the Coronation? He was doing the same thing as most regular folks, ignoring the hell out of it.

Posted by: Damn Sockpuppet at January 23, 2013 05:37 PM (YmPwQ)

481 Salon should come and watch my horse being shod every month. My farrier still makes his own shoes out of bar steel. Plain old hand bellows and charcoal. Bending steel for the shape and then 'drooping' steel to make heel clips. You can bend that stuff with the rat tail end of a file. Fold it over and hammer a couple of times and you're done.


Posted by: Pentangle at January 23, 2013 05:37 PM (XzLIU)

482 Didn't Ace grow up in Allentown? Before they tore all the factories down?

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at January 23, 2013 05:38 PM (Ec6wH)

483 Wait, didn't 'The One' say he was going to bring science back?

So much for that.

Posted by: blindside at January 23, 2013 05:39 PM (x7g7t)

484 If you're inclined to believe that the Federal gov't runs shadowy consipracies to kill its own, then you're going to believe that regardless of the physical evidence.

Posted by: looking closely at January 23, 2013 03:55 PM (6Q9g2)

As incompetent as the government is, can anyone believe they could actually DO this and not have it blow up? Especially with a Republican in office?

Besides, the gov't doesn't need shadow conspiracies. They do it openly (c.f. Waco, Ruby Ridge)

WTF is it about mass shootings and shit like Waco going down when Democrats hold the White House?

Posted by: blindside at January 23, 2013 05:42 PM (x7g7t)

485 Like my blacksmithing book says; steel at forging temp (cherry red approx 1000 deg F) is as malleable as clay.
I've melted aluminum in a woodstove with an air blower feeding inside, 1400 degrees. Also melted it in a bonfire, just throw an old pot in the coals, gone in seconds, rake out of ashes later.

Company I worked for had high-security padlocks, hardened grade of steel, froze at -40 because of close tolerances (clearance) I was told they opened some by holding a sledgehammer under them and whacking with another hammer. The steel grade turned fragile at -40 deg

Posted by: Bill sometimes Bill from Canada at January 23, 2013 05:49 PM (438of)

486 Here's what the firefighters said....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCdRA09pztM

Posted by: TimmaY at January 23, 2013 05:50 PM (TXgfr)

487 I am a little disappointed that no one bothered to pull the structural design codes and show what the actual; design loads were.

Posted by: Obamao at January 23, 2013 05:50 PM (JtyGg)

488 Salon employees are ill read in most of the useful arts and sciences.

I saw empirical evidence of that steel doesn't need to melt to collapse when my father's business burned. Tar flat roof burned and caused the roof girders to lose their integrity. Steel girders deformed and twisted into fantastic shapes.. Second, casting your own bullets teaches you that alloys can be formed despite the fact that one element such as antimony has a higher melting point. It dissolves in molten lead like a lollipop does in the mouth and loses all structure. Metallurgy is a fascinating field because so much is still unknown about alloy behavior.

Posted by: wg at January 23, 2013 05:51 PM (IaGpl)

489
@451Again, kind of off topic, but I was wondering where Romney was during the inauguration. Anybody?
-------------------------------------
Don't know for sure. But the most likely guessis probably"at home spending time with his extended family".

Posted by: junior at January 23, 2013 05:53 PM (UWFpX)

490 Dumb fucks. And their even dumber fuck followers lap this shit up like there's no tomorrow.

Posted by: bicentennialguy at January 23, 2013 05:57 PM (k6b4q)

491 google the "Iron Carbon Phase diagram". Steel has a phase transformation prior to melting where it goes from Ferrite (alpha iron) to Austenite (gamma iron). The body centered cubic crystal structure of the low temperature steel takes up more space than the face centered cubic structure of the high temperature steel. In other words, stell shrinks as it gets hot, but before it melts. So what happened is while cooking in all that jet fuel the steel underwent a phase transformation that weakened it. This is why you will see steel beams sprayed with insulating materials in buildings.

Posted by: Mr Orwell at January 23, 2013 05:58 PM (jYLHT)

492 had a bit of Structural Engineering in my last job, the critical issue is the Modulus of Elasticity, everything deflects under load, the general rule of thumb for acceptable deflection is 1/360th of the length, any more and you have wall cracking and severe creaking. Heat reduces the ME of steel, increasing deflection. With enough reduction walls collapse, no melting necessary.

Posted by: Bill Hedrick at January 23, 2013 06:01 PM (azgsH)

493 Journalist Peter Lance did his exposé on last night's C2C along with Emad Salem. Their details regarding convicted terrorist blind Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman (the Catholic equivalent to the "Pope" so far as radical Islamists are concerned) are not to be ignored.

Posted by: panzernashorn at January 23, 2013 06:04 PM (MhA4j)

494 Rumor is romney attended the inauguration.

But that's |R\U|M|O\R

Posted by: Caustic at January 23, 2013 06:05 PM (/b8+5)

495 This paper, "On Some Physical Properties of Ice," http://www.jstor.org/stable/30068014, shows that ice does bend (deform) under stress. 9-11 Trutherism is pure horseshit, but Ace's post is really sloppy and doesn't contribute much useful to the debunking.

Posted by: gp at January 23, 2013 06:05 PM (mk9aG)

496 I'm a retired fire officer. Fire will melt steel. Fire will also cause steel supported structures to collapse. Most buildings usesteel trusses, especially to support floors. Usually they only rest on the I beams at the ends.If one part of the truss fails, it all fails. It will bend and fail,if you apply enough heat. Steel, as an instructor once told me, is a thermoplastic. Truthers are stupid.

Posted by: VN Redleg at January 23, 2013 06:06 PM (HUOW4)

497 Wow, so an average Salon writer actually knows less than the average medieval blacksmith. That sure is encouraging.

Posted by: The Ghost of Flannery O'Connor at January 23, 2013 06:28 PM (8V74Y)

498 A low level civil engineering class I took many years ago told me that warehouses needed to built of wood not steel. Wood will burn but you can put the fire out and save your stuff. Steel will bend when hot, collapse and all will be lost.

Terry Moran a truther? Wow. 9/11 trutherism seems to be popular with comedians and journalists (but I repeat myself). They'll believe anything if it can be used to bash Republicans.

Posted by: waelse1 at January 23, 2013 06:30 PM (B/LD8)

499 Any decent material reference source will provide some documentation on how steel and other metals are affected by temperature changes. For example, Mil-Handbook5 (now MMPDS) and the ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code, Section II, Materials, do so. Hell, you can find some decent info at Matweb on the intertubes. There are two things that change - stiffness governing deflection under constant load - the modulus of elasticity, and strength, how much load can be sustained at a given temperature. Both are substantially reduced at high temperature, unless your structural members are, oh, Inconel 625. So the steel is still solid, not even liquid-curious, but just hella bendier and weaker. (I use those terms to help the drooling idiots at Salon begin to understand.)

Posted by: chuckR at January 23, 2013 06:36 PM (WE9pd)

500 I guess Salon doesn't watch California-based news. Fire DOES bend metal. http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-2739222.html

Posted by: exliberal at January 23, 2013 06:56 PM (leIQP)

501 Ace, great post, however I think you lost Solon's attention after you said "look".

Posted by: Bufalobob at January 23, 2013 06:56 PM (x+7qA)

502 Also note, jet engines use, SuperAlloys, because regular steel has a much lower melting point and the jet engines will not work due to strength degredation of steels (and most metals) as temperature increases. (i.e. steels ultimate strength and yield strength are variable with temperature and they get significantly weaker just at a few hundred degrees, well below their melting points.) .

Posted by: John Stark Dark at January 23, 2013 07:08 PM (0JB89)

503 Ref 499;
Having purchased large quantities of 304 and 316 stainless steel, titanium, zirconium and zirconium alloys, nickel and nickel alloys (all of the above because of their resistance to corrosion) I have 2 comments:

1) Inconel is a nickel alloy it is not steel...

2) It is much too expensive to be used in the construction of a building

Posted by: ADK46er at January 23, 2013 07:08 PM (P78OU)

504
Iron - Allotropes and Phase Diagram http://preview.tinyurl.com/agjvuje
I guess the poor dears have never seen a blacksmith shoe a rainbow colored unicorn.

Posted by: MachiasPrivateer at January 23, 2013 07:11 PM (0c0fX)

505 ref 503 - of course you wouldn't make structural sections of inconel - we'd still be building the first skyscraper if that alloy was used. I just get frustrated over some of the assertions concerning what steel and buildings in general ought to be able to do. Fact is, the Skilling tube design of the Towers was amazingly strong and the Vierendeel truss that resulted from the planes' impacts allowed substantial time for evacuation. Fireproofing was a scandal, though. We'll never see skyscrapers designed so structurally efficiently again until somebody comes up with a way to fireproof them more effectively than big thermal mass designs.

Posted by: chuckR at January 23, 2013 07:30 PM (WE9pd)

506 No harm no foul - I just wanted to make sure people reading your comment who aren't familiar with Inconel understand:
1) it isn't steel

2) it's expensive so it would never be used in the construction industry

3) and finally that it's used almost exclusively in chemical processing because of it's resistance to corrosion.

Posted by: ADK46er at January 23, 2013 07:46 PM (P78OU)

507 Back when I was building I saw an advertisement for laminated wood beams. In it was a photo from a burned out house. The 18" laminated wood beam was still there, all charred up. Draped over it like a dishrag was a 12" steel I beam that had fallen on the the wood beam and bent in the heat of the fire. Despite the heat, wood will oxidize only so fast and no more. The fire was put out before enough of the beam had burnt away to cause it to fail.

I still think it is criminal that 2 or 3 floors, non load bearing mind you, could pancake and take the towers with them. Yes, the heat in the middle could melt the floor truces and they could fail, but both the load bearing skin, which was air cooled, and the forest of load bearing steel "piers" in the middle? I have a hard time believing those floors were that heavy. There must have been some serious design flaws in those buildings....

And no, I dont know what the fuck I am talking about. Just saying.

Posted by: butternut at January 23, 2013 08:07 PM (nbYoV)

508 Steel is allotropic. Which means it is capable of having more than one crystal structure depending at temperature.
At room temperature the crystal lalttice is locked. Much like bricks laid alternately so that the mortar lines don't line up. The crystal structure is locked and can't slip.
As temperature rises steel eventually reaches a transition temperature where the lattice rearranges itself so that instead of being locked the lattice now resemble bricks simply stacked one atop the other their mortar lines all lines up . The crystals can easily slip past each other.
This temperature is slightly different for each alloy, but is about 1500 deg F
This isn't a matter of opinion but is scientific fact.
I'm not an engineer, but I am a qualified machinist. My job depends on knowing the properties of the materials I use.

Posted by: Mueller at January 23, 2013 08:14 PM (DAkK/)

509 >>But you can bend metal.

Weakling Americans... fire not needed. Hand me frying pan!

Posted by: Vladimir Putin at January 23, 2013 08:34 PM (N7DZ0)

510 Hold some Gallium in your hands for a minute or so until it warms up. Same concept. I could go into the chemistry and math, but I'm tired.

Posted by: pet at January 23, 2013 08:35 PM (r0DVT)

511 i am a mechanical engineer. Ace's analysis is very accurate.

Posted by: jd at January 23, 2013 08:38 PM (DGhcv)

512 @506 Actually, I have a fabricated component of Inconel 625 - from a heat exchanger. Also used in aerospace applications where high temp strength is a concern as well as corrosion. My piece of the stuff weighs about 5# - you can buy a lot of ValuRite vodka if you recycled it. I won't do that - its too pretty.
@507 Thick section wood (>6" minimum thickness) is very fire resistant - surface char slows the fire. But you can't build very high with wood. The WTC towers were built at a cost of $22 per square foot for 110 floors. A few years later in the mid 70s I bought a 3 story house - cost was about $23 per square foot. Their land cost would be much higher for sure.
But again, from what I've read, the inadequate fire protection in the Towers was scandalous. And the stairwells were not well protected. The NIST WTC reports are downloadable at NIST and there are some decent books on the Towers too. We'll never know exactly what happened, but the truther horseshit explains exactly none of it.

Posted by: chuckR at January 23, 2013 08:49 PM (WE9pd)

513 Who knew, I have spent 20 years in architecture designing buildings with fireproofing on steel,as required by code. And I really didn't need to.

Posted by: Thomas at January 23, 2013 09:00 PM (ijw6z)

514 Ace, at some point you have to stop explaining, and just laugh at these people.

Posted by: Anon at January 23, 2013 09:26 PM (f+fIu)

515 Metal can become brittle, too ... The steel of the Titanic became brittle in freezing water...or was the sinking a false story made to cover for the fact the ship was abducted by the "Close Encounters" aliens?

Posted by: Anon at January 23, 2013 09:30 PM (f+fIu)

516 #497
Wow, so an average Salon writer actually knows less than the average medieval blacksmith. That sure is encouraging.

-----

I think he meant the average iron-age blacksmith:

Modern archaeological evidence identifies the start of iron production as taking place in Anatolia
around 1200 BC, though some contemporary archaeological evidence points
to earlier dates. Around 3000 BC, iron was a scarce and precious metal
in the Near East.
Iron's qualities, in contrast to those of bronze, were not understood.
Between 1200 BC and 1000 BC, diffusion in the understanding of iron
metallurgy and utilization of iron objects was fast and far-flung.

Posted by: Anon at January 23, 2013 09:36 PM (f+fIu)

517 Some would say that butter would have similar properties to what you are describing.

But then, vegan DBs don't eat butter, so that analogy would likely be lost.

Posted by: IMRight at January 23, 2013 10:31 PM (MFerb)

518 Steel is molten at about 2,600F. It's malleable at much less than that. Aluminum is molten at about 1,200F. The fuel from the planes, no doubt started other things on fire, like the plastics and paper products in the offices. The fuselage of planes is aluminum and plastic. Also office furniture etc. A lot of aluminum in those buildings. The aluminum would have melted as the fire became more intense. Molten aluminum will flow to low lying areas. I'm sure water lines were broken (think bathrooms/sinks in lounge areas etc). Water would pool in low lying spots. Once the molten metal met the water, quickly turned the water to steam (boiling point H20 is only 212F.) This creates 'explosions' as the steam tries to escape from under the aluminum. Hence, the explosions 'heard' by people outside the buildings after the planes had already hit. -- properties of molten metal are why one never uses water to put out a metal fire.

Posted by: terry at January 23, 2013 11:55 PM (jk+wZ)

519 My God are they still blathering about this, even now?

These were the idiots who were out in the back parking lot getting stoned, instead of paying attention during science courses.

Posted by: tired at January 24, 2013 12:01 AM (adOUE)

520 What percentage of Liberals are Truthers? I don't know but they throw around 99% a lot.

Liberals sure are a stupid bunch. Stupid and crazy.

Hey, if there are any Libs who are browsing this. Why do you hate science?

Posted by: brando at January 24, 2013 12:47 AM (qQEcv)

521 I have been a practicing ferrous metallurgist for over 25 years. Steel definitiely looses strength as it heats up. However, there is more to story. Structural steel is designed to be used while the microstructure is "ferrite". At approximately 1350F, steel transforms crystallographically to another phase called "austenite". Guess what? Austenite is about half as strong as ferrite. Thus, fire did not melt the steel to cause the collapse, it heated it up to 1400F where there was a sudden loss of inherent strength and components (most likely bolts) were suddenly no longer strong enough to support the design load and failed. Ending in collapse of the building.

Posted by: Mike Dezzani at January 24, 2013 08:23 AM (Y9nZ5)

522 A couple things about structures. Normal structures are designed with about a 2 times factor of safety for the loads that are expected on the structure. Because heat DOES effect the strength of steel, fire protection is added to protect the steel from the effects of fire. The fire protection is designed only to protect the steel for a period of time to allow occupants to exit the building before building failure. That is why fire protection of steel is rated in hours. For example a structure may be protected with 1 hr, 2 hr etc rated assembly. The fire protection is eventually expected to fail and the structure heated leading to creep in the steel, the resultant loss of steel strength and eventual failure.

I vividly remember watching the towers on TV, noting the loss of the sprinkler system and the extent of the fires and commenting to my wife that they were going to go down. Any structural engineer with a rudimentary education could see that. Unfortunately the poor installation of fire proofing in the construction of the Twin Towers reduced the time for the occupants to escape and resulted in more loss of life than should have happened.

Posted by: Eric at January 24, 2013 09:35 AM (zXXPr)

523 The way the WTC is built is unlike most buildings.

You have the perimeter and core columns. Someone said the floors are non-load bearing. That is bullshit. The floor trusses tie into both the perimeter and core columns. Their load is not vertical, it is horizontal, pulling the core and perimeter columns together.

As the floor trusses heated up, they sagged. When they sagged, they pulled on both the core and perimeter columns. Bowing has been seen in the perimeter columns moments before collapse.

The joints tying the floor trusses to the core and perimeter columns are key. With the floors sagging and they themselves getting hot, the clip joints and the bolts holding them together will sheer.

At this point, the only thing holding the floors above the impact zone are the core columns. The Perimeter columns really aren't doing anything anymore.

The core columns are being exposed to heat and loose their structure. They become more and more plastic like and then eventually deform. As more and more columns fail, the load is shifted to other columns which in turn fail.

The reason why the top floor fell the way it did (straight down) is because of building design. All the wait of the upper floors are supported in the middle.

It was not controlled demolition, but a quirk of building design.

Posted by: Holger at January 24, 2013 10:37 AM (MHk3m)

524 Aww, come on guys. A day when I don't have internet access and you all have a metallurgy post? WHY DOES NO ONE TELL THE METALLURGIST!!!! Damn it all, next time there is one, shoot me an email to warn me!

Posted by: HoosierHillbilly at January 24, 2013 12:40 PM (bzAhB)

525 "As with JFK’s “Magic Bullet,” the official version asks us to pretend that the laws of physics do not exist."

Given that they've been able to reproduce the path of the "magic bullet' in both computer and real-world simulations, apparently certain people at Salon don't have as firm a grasp of the laws of physics as they think they do.

Posted by: Fenngibbon at January 24, 2013 02:12 PM (HLkJ3)

526 Learned during a documentary on the construction of the Twin Towers: They were forced to stop using asbestos to wrap the support structure when it was banned in 1971. According to wikipedia, it was used up to the 64th floor.

Posted by: Mark at January 24, 2013 02:39 PM (D5JZE)






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