DOOM: New car, caviar, four star daydream

DOOOOM

The GOP-controlled house and the Democrat-controlled Senate are still at loggerheads over the payroll tax "cut" bill. The Democrats (and Senate Republican Scott Brown) are painting the restive House GOP caucus as a bunch of Tea Party bomb-throwers, but by my reckoning they're simply doing what they were elected to do: put the brakes on government spending. The problem the House members are struggling with is not the payroll-tax holiday (it's not a "cut") but how to pay for it -- all that money not going into SS now will have to be made up in some way later. The Democrats fully intend to force a massive tax-hike later to pay for this "cut" now, and the House GOP knows it. Meanwhile, the Donks know the tax-holiday will play well with voters going into the holidays and thus help Good King Barack have a very Merry Christmas. The Senate GOP is worried more about the optics of the situation, and not unreasonably so: this kind of brinkmanship during the Holidays runs the risk of souring voters on the GOP. The Senate GOP caucus is also weaker than the House Caucus (i.e., Brown, Lugar, the two ladies from Maine) and may feel that the Senate bill is the best hand they're going to get dealt.

I think I already inducted Maine into the LOTB some time back, but they’ve ascended to the Premier level along with such stalwarts as Illinois and California: Maine now has more welfare recipients than it does net taxpayers.

Here’s a great idea for those who want to learn more about economics but grow faint at the forbiddingly-long tomes filled with dense jargon: comic-book guides to basic economics. Volume 1: Microeconomics and Volume 2: Macroeconomics.

You know, I love optimists. If it weren't for optimists, I'd have no one to mock, ridicule, and ruthlessly exploit for my own gain when things go to shit -- as they always do.

There is a certain amount of irony in an article about the economics benefits of invention being written by a former Microsoft executive. Microsoft in many ways is the antithesis of invention: they are known more for repackaging existing technologies than for creating new ones. Still, Myhrvold does make a good point. If America expects to turbocharge our growth, we're going to have to do it via innovation and R&D.

Governments cannot create wealth. Only people can do that. All the government can do is help to prepare the ground in which commerce might flourish, and protect the rights and wellbeing of the people through a fair system of laws. However, to people like Teh Krugman, the government's ability to redistribute wealth is a mechanism for "fairness", not wealth-building: leftists believe that "fairness" is a physical rather than a metaphysical attribute. To them, it is better to be "fair" even if the result is economic ruin...which like rain falls on the deserving and the undeserving alike.

Fannie and Freddie still have their stout defenders. The malfeasance of the GSE's is so well-known and documented at this point that it led to the former CEO's of those firms being sued by the government. Yet to dupes like Mr. Nocera, the crimes and incompetence of Fannie and Freddie are of no account simply because they are, and have been since their inception, darlings of the Left. It simply confirms my belief that no crime is beyond the pale for the Left so long as the criminal is acting with good left/liberal intentions.

The French are finally awakening to the reality of the catastrophe that is the Euro. It took them long enough. But then, to the French the Eurozone was always more about keeping Germany in check and ensuring French political power than it was about creating a functional monetary union. And now their hopes are dashed: Germany ascendant, France in eclipse, the Euro on the brink of collapse.

The geezers versus the punks: an epic throw-down. As the Boomers continue their march into retirement and younger workers find themselves roadblocked by a weak economy, higher taxes, and a lower quality of life, a conflict is not only likely but probably inevitable. There is no way the government can pay out the money it promised to older Americans: Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, pensions, all the rest. There simply isn't enough money to do it all, and younger taxpayers will simply not stand for the kind of tax hikes that would be necessary to make those promises good.

Could this be the end of the "China Bubble"? I'm just waiting for Tom Friedman to explain to me how bullet-trains and upscale Shanghai shopping malls will pull China out of this mess.

RyanAir CEO slams the EU at EU innovation summit. This story is notable mainly because this is a European CEO speaking of a European institution. This kind of harsh language used to be pretty rare on the Continent, but the EU chaos seems to be energizing the more free-market elements to speak out.

Inside the mind of a gold bug. We gold bugs do tend to be gloomy, but most of us feel that our gloominess is perfectly justified given how events have played out. It's the optimists who have the harder selling-job these days.

As investment returns dry up, state pension funds are making increasingly-risky bets to make their outlandish returns promises good. And who bears the brunt of that risk? The taxpayers.

Nation, using CalPERS' own data going back as far as it would provide, 1982, ran statistical simulations to forecast the odds of meeting several investment targets. He found there was only a 42 percent chance of meeting or exceeding our current wager on the 7.75 percent rate.

If we want to place a less-risky bet, we should be using an investment rate of 6.2 percent (63 percent chance of success) or, better yet, a 4.5 percent rate (81 percent chance of success).

I've long said that the realistic "risk free" return rate would probably be more in the neighborhood of 3-4%, not 7-8%.

How Illinois became the worst state in the nation for public pension debt. Democrat machine politics, over-powerful unions, crooked politicians, cynical businessmen, and lazy voters. It's not a mystery, really.


Posted by: Monty at 08:53 AM



Comments

1 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 20, 2011 08:54 AM (8y9MW)

2 Pelosi says she's been informed GOP won't vote down Senate payroll tax cut compromise tomorrow, they won't bring it to floor - @LukeRussert

Posted by: corner of wall at December 20, 2011 08:55 AM (oZfic)

3 Why don't the Tea Party members of the GOP have a problem with a one year extension of Unemployment "benefits"?
That is absurd.

Posted by: Jay at December 20, 2011 08:58 AM (3LaGb)

4 Oh, and I watched the MSNBC coverage of this last night and the story line was that the Democrats are "Middle class tax cutters" and the Republican House members are batshit crazy.

Posted by: Jay at December 20, 2011 08:59 AM (3LaGb)

5 Monty, ecologically sound argument for the Senate: It is full of RINOs.

Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2011 09:00 AM (YdQQY)

6 4
Oh, and I watched the MSNBC coverage of this last night and the story line was that the Democrats are "Middle class tax cutters" and the Republican House members are batshit crazy.

Yup..

Posted by: The terrorist Hobbit formerly known as Donna at December 20, 2011 09:00 AM (X4EXc)

7 From that ME welfare link:

But Democrats said LePage’s numbers are deceptive and not entirely truthful.

The irony; it burns.

Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2011 09:01 AM (YdQQY)

8 Why don't the Tea Party members of the GOP have a problem with a one year extension of Unemployment "benefits"?

Because they don't want to be the "heartless" party that "doesn't care" about the unemployed. Yes. It's stupid. On the other hand, they're right about how they'll be perceived, so it's not completely unreasonable.

What they need to do is start working in some incentives to get new work. Not just "you have to look for X jobs a week," but things like "After your State UE runs out, we'll pay you 80% of that for a year. After that, we'll pay you 60%. After the tax-payer has been footing your bill for two years, you're cut off."

That's not as good as just saying "no" from our standpoint, but it's got better "optics."

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 20, 2011 09:03 AM (8y9MW)

9 Meanwhile in NJ, we are trying NOT to pay temp workers unemployment...

"Work all summer at the shore, maybe work another job, and collect unemployment in the off-season."http://tinyurl.com/7nry8lh

Posted by: The Robot Devil at December 20, 2011 09:05 AM (GaIwz)

10

Normal
0




Fannie and Freddie still have their stout defenders.

Yeah starting with the NYT. But hey, what do you expect when quoting the NYT editorial pages? Yesterday morning one of the guys from Faux buisness news said FF still did 90% of the mortgage lending as if that was an indicator of the need to keep them.

I view that as the opposite. It is a reason for getting rid of them.

Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2011 09:06 AM (YdQQY)

11 10 vic

amen

Posted by: phoenixgirl at December 20, 2011 09:07 AM (Ho2rs)

12 WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Housing starts surged to a 1-1/2 year high in
November and permits for future construction were the highest since
March 2010 as demand for rental apartments rose, offering hope for the
weak housing market.


Demand for rental apartments rose and that offers hope for the housing market. Okay, sure

Posted by: TheQuietMan at December 20, 2011 09:08 AM (1Jaio)

13 How much does my current office location suck?

14 minutes to cover 5.8 miles. Seems roughly the same no matter what time I come in. This usually means I arrive in a seething rage.

Posted by: Scott J at December 20, 2011 09:09 AM (KC2BE)

14 "Work all summer at the shore, maybe work another job, and collect unemployment in the off-season."
They do that a lot in Michigan, too. Especially up north. Basically any private construction business hires people during the summer to work, then lays them all off around September, and pays them unemployment until the next summer.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 20, 2011 09:09 AM (8y9MW)

15 about the gvt creates wealth paragraph;
. However, to people like Teh Krugman, the government's ability to
redistribute wealth is a mechanism for "fairness", not wealth-building:
leftists believe that "fairness" is a physical rather than a
metaphysical attribute. To them, it is better to be "fair" even if the
result is economic ruin...which like rain falls on the deserving and the
undeserving alike

I have become cynical that gvt does this for fairness, i have become a believer that fairness means money to the right voters, not about fair at all, but about securing their power.

Posted by: willow at December 20, 2011 09:10 AM (h+qn8)

16
the payroll tax "cut" bill. The Democrats and Senate Republican Scott Brown



The vote was 89 to 10 with only 7 Republican nays or abstentions. It was the entire Senatorial Republican party that went over the cliff, not just Scotty Boy.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at December 20, 2011 09:10 AM (3wBRE)

17 Maine having more welfare takers than taxpayers is terrifying when you ad the soon to be greater than 100 million retirees.
How will 50 million workers pay for 250 million who don't work?

Posted by: kdny at December 20, 2011 09:11 AM (4vhzd)

18 I have become cynical that gvt does this for fairness, i have become a
believer that fairness means money to the right voters, not about fair
at all, but about securing their power.
Of course the government doesn't do it for "fairness." Under no circumstances is it "fair" to take from people who are working to give to people who aren't working. It has always and only been about getting votes.

Yes. I include Hoover and FDR's interventionism in that statement.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 20, 2011 09:12 AM (8y9MW)

19 I maybe guilty of optimism (I denounce myself for it) but I get the sense that offshoring manufacturing seems to be less in vogue these days.

So, bring on the China collapse. Maybe it'll finally put a stake in the heart of that monster.

Posted by: Scott J at December 20, 2011 09:12 AM (KC2BE)

20 How will 50 million workers pay for 250 million who don't work?

They can't. Hence the DOOM.

Posted by: Monty at December 20, 2011 09:13 AM (FC+dS)

21 The problem the House members are struggling with is not the payroll-tax holiday (it's not a "cut") but how to pay for it -- all that money not going into SS now will have to be made up in some way later.
The "good" news - under all plans, past, present and future, the "Trust Funds" got/get/will get an amount from the general fund equal to the amount of the tax holiday.
The bad - since the general fund is very-massively in the red, and will always be very-massively in the red, it is illogical (not to mention impossible) to deem any scheme to "pay" for it valid.

Posted by: steveegg at December 20, 2011 09:14 AM (o44nj)

22 Allen, well sure you already knew this, but i being a former union dem , actually thought it was a nice thing to do

Posted by: willow at December 20, 2011 09:14 AM (h+qn8)

23 Monty, those economics books look interesting. Have you read them? I am looking for good economics books to introduce my kid to the subject, but I would like to not have to worry about filtering all the "progressive" crapola coming out of the gate. If you have any additional suggestions as well, I'd love to hear them.

Posted by: Insomniac at December 20, 2011 09:15 AM (v+QvA)

24 How will 50 million workers pay for 250 million who don't work?

They can't. Hence the DOOM.

No. The DOOM comes because there are too many people sucking down oxygen who refuse to accept that reality to the point something is done about it.

Posted by: Scott J at December 20, 2011 09:15 AM (KC2BE)

25 I get the sense that offshoring manufacturing seems to be less in vogue these days.

That is not, inherently, a good thing. The reason that work was sent off-shore in the first place was because companies saw better value in it. In very real terms, out-sourcing a lot of our manufacturing is actually good for the greater economy, because it makes things we need and want less expensive.

If the only two reasons things are moving back here are a public sentiment and a potential collapse in China, that's actually a net negative, because none of the factors which caused employers to look over-seas for this work have been addressed. Prices will almost certainly increase in those sectors, and probably ripple through the entire economy- for not much (if any) more money in your pocket.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 20, 2011 09:15 AM (8y9MW)

26 i thought money was printed out of air . and now it actually is.

Posted by: willow at December 20, 2011 09:16 AM (h+qn8)

27 Surfing the web gonna get a little rockier.

Posted by: sTevo at December 20, 2011 09:16 AM (I3+EU)

28 They can't. Hence the DOOM.I hear you, bro but the constant DOOM drumbeat starts to sound like a schtic until certain numbers kick your teeth in.

Posted by: kdny at December 20, 2011 09:16 AM (4vhzd)

29 I have become cynical that gvt does this for fairness, i have become a believer that fairness means money to the right voters, not about fair at all, but about securing their power.
Posted by: willow at December 20, 2011 09:10 AM (h+qn
Shhhh, you'll give away all our secrets!

Posted by: Nancy, Harry and Barry at December 20, 2011 09:16 AM (v+QvA)

30 but i being a former union dem , actually thought it was a nice thing to do

Just like alcoholics and drug addicts, the term is "recovering."

That's the problem, though, the government has no mandate to be "nice." Niceness, like compassion, are things only individuals can have. Organizations cannot.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 20, 2011 09:17 AM (8y9MW)

31 Willow, in the words of Zed in MIB to your waking up to reality: "sucks, doesn't it".

Glad to have you in the horde with us.

Posted by: Scott J at December 20, 2011 09:17 AM (KC2BE)

32 Have you read them? I am looking for good economics books to introduce
my kid to the subject, but I would like to not have to worry about
filtering all the "progressive" crapola coming out of the gate.

Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson is my usual recommendation for teens or young people who want to get a good grounding in economics. But these comics are fun, quick to read, and give a generally-accurate view of economic thought without grinding an ideological axe. I'm giving a set to my nephew for Christmas, in fact.

Posted by: Monty at December 20, 2011 09:18 AM (FC+dS)

33 Another fucking extension? For the people who have already run out of their two-year extension? I could still be collecting from my Obama Inauguration layoff?

Pisses me off more than the roundabouts on my commute.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at December 20, 2011 09:18 AM (ZKzrr)

34 I don't think this is the hill the Republicans should die on. It is a losing proposition. The Dems with the help from their buddies the MSM have managed to twist this into the Republicans hating the middle class and denying them their tax"cut."

Posted by: The terrorist Hobbit formerly known as Donna at December 20, 2011 09:18 AM (X4EXc)

35 Allen , agree.
Scott, yep it's rather a mind bend, but good for me and my family.

Posted by: willow at December 20, 2011 09:19 AM (h+qn8)

36 Good morning, retards morons.

Posted by: Truman North at December 20, 2011 09:19 AM (I2LwF)

37 That is not, inherently, a good thing. The reason that work was sent
off-shore in the first place was because companies saw better value in
it.

Again succumbing to the tiny sliver of my brain that is optimistic: perhaps the companies are seeing better value in staying here.

The NLRB dropping the suit against Boeing for example.

Posted by: Scott J at December 20, 2011 09:19 AM (KC2BE)

38 the terrorist hobbit formerly known as donna

no such hill exists.......

Posted by: phoenixgirl at December 20, 2011 09:20 AM (Ho2rs)

39 Sean Penn and Cuban actress Maria Conchita Alonso were once Hollywood co-stars — but they had an angry bust-up at LAX, with Alonso branding Penn a “communist [bleep]hole” after he called her a “pig” in front of a stunned crowd.
It started when Alonso picked up her mother from a Miami flight and spotted Penn in an American Airlines lost luggage area Sunday.
Alonso, born in Cuba and raised in Venezuela, says her “heart stopped” when she saw the actor, to whom she’d written an open letter last year to say she was “appalled” by his public support of Hugo Chavez.

UPI
Sean Penn
She told Page Six: “I was very calm. I said, ‘I would like to talk to you.’ He said, ‘I have nothing to say to you . . . You have been saying a lot of things about me in the press.’ I said, ‘How can you defend Chavez?’ ”
The argument escalated from there. Alonso relates: “I said, ‘You are a communist, Sean Penn.’ He said, ‘You are a pig!’ So I said, ‘And you are a communist [bleep]hole! Is it great to live the way you do as a communist?’
“I went back to my mother, and he started yelling at us,” Alonso told us. “I yelled back, ‘Communist [bleep]hole!’ Nearly 60 people were watching, shocked. My mother wanted to clap, but she couldn’t because she was in a wheelchair and she had a small dog in her lap.”
Penn, traveling from Haiti, told us: “I only knew that a hostile woman was nonsensically berating me. I didn’t realize it was that actress. I think I worked with her once. But she looks really different. She was uninformed and impolite to all the other passengers.” The two starred in the 1988 film “Colors,” as lovers on different sides of the gang war in Los Angeles.
Alonso, who first recounted the story to Steve Malzberg on Washington, DC, radio station WMAL, added, “I do apologize for calling Sean Penn a [bleep]hole. He is an intelligent man . . . But if someone calls me a pig, I am not going to turn the other cheek. But I don’t regret calling him a communist.”

No you were right he is an asshole

Posted by: nevergiveup at December 20, 2011 09:20 AM (i6RpT)

40 Yeah, CalPERS, a 7.75% total rate of return is soo realistic in a ZIRP US market. You gonna drink from that holy grail, you better choose wisely son.

Maybe you call up that Corzine fellow; Joe Biden sure did. First thing.

Posted by: GnuBreed at December 20, 2011 09:20 AM (ENKCw)

41 I don't think this is the hill the Republicans should die on. It is a losing proposition.
I really hope you missed a /sarc tag there, but I'm afraid you didn't.

Everything Republicans stand for is currently a "losing proposition." Fiscal sanity, when people believe their other option is wild abandon without consequence, is always a losing proposition.

You can either fight anyway, or resign yourself to the DOOM.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 20, 2011 09:21 AM (8y9MW)

42 I hear you, bro but the constant DOOM drumbeat starts to sound like a schtic until certain numbers kick your teeth in.
Well, you know what they say about clichés: it's a cliché, but it became a cliché because it's true.

Posted by: Monty at December 20, 2011 09:21 AM (FC+dS)

43 My own EuroZone Doom roundup, including a graphic explaining how the EuroZone bailout will work I think many here will appreciate...

Posted by: Lawrence Person at December 20, 2011 09:21 AM (eRpHv)

44 no such hill exists.......

Posted by: phoenixgirl at December 20, 2011 09:20 AM (Ho2rs)

Could be, but we are taking an incredible beating over this...

Posted by: The terrorist Hobbit formerly known as Donna at December 20, 2011 09:21 AM (X4EXc)

45 The Pink DOOM really hit home this morning when I saw a clip of Titsie McCain struggling to formulate a coherent thought. As a Republican, she's not pulling any punches in her efforts to bring down the GOP.

Posted by: Fritz at December 20, 2011 09:21 AM (/ZZCn)

46 Kittehs clearly do NOT like being dressed up as Santa.

Posted by: Tami at December 20, 2011 09:22 AM (X6akg)

47 @32 Thanks, Monty!

Posted by: Insomniac at December 20, 2011 09:22 AM (v+QvA)

48 Kittehs clearly do NOT like being dressed up as Santa

Fixed

Posted by: Scott J at December 20, 2011 09:23 AM (KC2BE)

49 Again succumbing to the tiny sliver of my brain that is optimistic:
perhaps the companies are seeing better value in staying here.

Let me help with that: They aren't.

NRLB "dropped" the suit against Boeing because they didn't have too much of a leg to stand on (Boeing wasn't closing their other plant, remember, just opening a new one) and Boeing made some sort of concessions- the details of which I do not know.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 20, 2011 09:23 AM (8y9MW)

50 LOCK BOX

Posted by: Social Security 2x4 (minus 12.5% withholding tax) at December 20, 2011 09:25 AM (rOPwp)

51 The Ryan Air CEO transcript gave me morning wood.

Substitute "The State of Texas" for Ryan Air, and Washington for Brussels in the transcript. If Perry can pull that off and not seem petty or apologetic about it, that's gonna be the guy we argue been waiting for.

Posted by: Shecky at December 20, 2011 09:25 AM (NMBDj)

52 Al Gore's wealth that he generated from propagating the Global Warming hoax should be confiscated and put in a lock box.

Posted by: The Robot Devil at December 20, 2011 09:26 AM (GaIwz)

53 Argue= have. Damn iphone

Posted by: Shecky at December 20, 2011 09:27 AM (NMBDj)

54 My own personal tragedy is that all through the Eighties and Nineties people would meet me and say "Hey, has anyone ever told you that you look like Sean Penn"?
Yes, yes they have. Once.

Posted by: Lincolntf at December 20, 2011 09:30 AM (hiMsy)

55 ‘And you are a communist [bleep]hole! Is it great to live the way you do as a communist?’


His estimated net worth is 150M USD. I'd say he's living pretty well. (And the proletariat needs to be demanding their "fair share" of it.)

Posted by: HeatherRadish at December 20, 2011 09:31 AM (ZKzrr)

56 Ok, so let me make my endorsement of the Republican Candidate right here-

Rick Perry for President (he may be stupid but he'll stay the fuck out of the way)

Posted by: kdny at December 20, 2011 09:32 AM (4vhzd)

57 54
My own personal tragedy is that all through the Eighties and Nineties
people would meet me and say "Hey, has anyone ever told you that you
look like Sean Penn"?

Could be worse, they could have said, "Hey, has anyone ever told you that you
look like Madonna"?

Posted by: The Robot Devil at December 20, 2011 09:33 AM (GaIwz)

58 Posted by: Lincolntf at December 20, 2011 09:30 AM (hiMsy)

I used to work with a lady who is a dead-ringer for Tanya Harding.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 20, 2011 09:33 AM (8y9MW)

59 How will 50 million workers pay for 250 million who don't work?

Posted by: kdny at December 20, 2011 09:11 AM (4vhzd)
-----------------------------------------------------------
We won't.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at December 20, 2011 09:34 AM (jucos)

60 Think Ill buy me a football team.

Posted by: lowfibass at December 20, 2011 09:36 AM (BrqlK)

61 How will 50 million workers pay for 250 million who don't work?





Posted by: kdny at December 20, 2011 09:11 AM (4vhzd)


-----------------------------------------------------------


We won't.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at December 20, 2011 09:34 AM (jucos)

u vil ,and you vil like it

Posted by: willow at December 20, 2011 09:36 AM (h+qn8)

62
Rick Perry for President (he may be stupid but he'll stay the fuck out of the way)
I'd rather have someone of average intelligence who had common sense than someone with a Messiah complex with Marilyn Vos Savant's IQ

Posted by: The Robot Devil at December 20, 2011 09:37 AM (GaIwz)

63 Rick Perry’s swipe at Mitt Romney’s private equity career Saturday was delivered with the precision of a mallet. Perry lumped together Washington, Wall Street and government-sponsored mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, declaring Romney part of a general problem with taxpayer-funded largesse for government employees and bank bailouts…
“‘I don’t think you have to actually have an address on Wall Street to be a part of Wall Street. I don’t think anybody gets confused that Bain Capital is part of that whole Wall Street structure. I don’t think that’s lost on anybody,’ Perry told The Huffington Post Saturday…
“Perry’s comments risk looking like a pure anti-profit jab: a statement that because Romney made a lot of money in the general realm of high-dollar investments, he is de facto blameworthy. This kind of broad attack on the financial system is what got Newt Gingrich in trouble last week, when he too knocked Romney’s Bain Capital career.”

Posted by: pandermonium at December 20, 2011 09:40 AM (a4lmz)

64 Tonya Harding or Sean Penn, that's a tough call as to who is more of a notorious asshole.

Posted by: Lincolntf at December 20, 2011 09:40 AM (uIz80)

65 How will 50 million workers pay for 250 million who don't work?



Posted by: kdny at December 20, 2011 09:11 AM (4vhzd)

-----------------------------------------------------------

We won't.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at December 20, 2011 09:34 AM (jucos)
And not just as a matter of principal. There just aren't jobs enough to do it. Folks like to argue that you can always go flip burgers, which isn't even entirely true anymore, but there are never going to be enough $6 an hour jobs to pay for six digit pensions and the black hole that is medicare.


Posted by: Methos at December 20, 2011 09:41 AM (sOXQX)

66 I don''t understand really. Why would conservatives be opposed to the payroll tax cut?

We believed that tax cuts increase revenue by the encouragement of free market growth. At least this has been the line that I have believed since Reagan. This is why I always laugh when Obama claims the Bush tax cut loss of revenue.

I know that the payroll tax goes to Social Security. But when did we believe that a Social Security fund actually existed? We know that there are simply a bunch of IOU's to pay due to the fleecing done by our generational politicians. So why the big worry about this cut? Isn't this the best way to start privatizing Social Security? Isn't that what we espouse? Why do we want to keep feeding a failed program. Isn't this what we are saying about the Euro?

Please help me understand the House's position here. Help me understand why this cut is a cost while the Bush cuts were a gain!

Posted by: Dave at December 20, 2011 09:43 AM (hm8tW)

67 How will 50 million workers pay for 250 million who don't work?


Soylent Green is coming....


Posted by: Barack "Malcom-Y" Obama at December 20, 2011 09:43 AM (GaIwz)

68 How will 50 million workers pay for 250 million who don't work?



Posted by: kdny at December 20, 2011 09:11 AM (4vhzd)

Right now as we speak 51% of the public pay no federal income tax.

Right now as we speak 38% of the public over age 20 are not working.

There is a reason we are running over a trillion dollars a year in the red.

Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2011 09:45 AM (YdQQY)

69 Monty,
Ah like yer kittahs, but this is me favorite DOOM PICTURE of all time. Enjoy, Moronettes (and remember, this is maddogg posting links).

Posted by: maddogg at December 20, 2011 09:45 AM (OlN4e)

70 I'd rather have someone of average intelligence who had common sense than someone with a Messiah complex with Marilyn Vos Savant's IQ
I hear you. i really did just decide I want Perry. He's made an ass of himself but when it comes down to it there is only one person in this race who can claim to have had a positive effect on an economy.
That positive effect? Mostly caused by getting government out of the way. Hence the snarc.

Posted by: kdny at December 20, 2011 09:46 AM (4vhzd)

71 I'd rather have someone of average intelligence who had common sense than someone with a Messiah complex with Marilyn Vos Savant's IQ
There is absolutely nothing smart about Obama. The libby left has being fucking that chicken since Adlai Stevenson at least.
Obama said he didn't like the word "victory" because it brought to mind Emperor Hirihito surrendering to MacAuthur.
How fucking stupid can you be?

Posted by: dagny at December 20, 2011 09:46 AM (1RaCw)

72 Please help me understand the House's position here. Help me understand why this cut is a cost while the Bush cuts were a gain!

The problem isn't the "tax cut". Its the two months and it is back on the table again route as well as the means of "paying" for it. The Dems want a tax hike on the evil rich. Which basically means it is not a "tax cut". It is a tax redistribution.

Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2011 09:47 AM (YdQQY)

73 Folks like to argue that you can always go flip burgers,

Dude, if you work, your EBT might get reduced. But we're assuming the burger chains don't get shut down by "well-meaning"[sic] local governments who won't let them open in neighborhoods becuz of teh obeeeeesity!!! (What's the nutritional content of a venti macchiato at BigBucks compared to a McCafe...?)


Is it time for lunch yet?

Posted by: HeatherRadish at December 20, 2011 09:48 AM (ZKzrr)

74
Soylent Green is coming....Posted by: Barack "Malcom-Y" Obama




Tuesday is Soylent Green day.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at December 20, 2011 09:48 AM (3wBRE)

75 Why would conservatives be opposed to the payroll tax cut?

Because it will lead to a colossal rise in taxes later, that's why. This is not a "cut". This is a "holiday" that will end, and then the shortfall will have to be made up -- unless we reform SS in parallel such that the cost of the "holiday" is offset.

Right now, this so-called cut is like buying an HDTV on some no-money-down plan from Best Buy. Sure, you walk out with a shiny new TV with no out of pocket expense; but you're paying 21% interest on that gadget, and the longer you take to pay that bill off, the more ruinous the cost of that TV becomes.

Posted by: Monty at December 20, 2011 09:49 AM (FC+dS)

76 Also Perry can't be as dumb as his gaffes make him seem. Like Bush, he is a pilot. Stupid just doesn't make it as a pilot.
The only thing Obama has ever piloted is the push cart of racial greivances.

Posted by: kdny at December 20, 2011 09:49 AM (4vhzd)

77 Why would conservatives be opposed to the payroll tax cut?
They are not. They're trying to extend it for a year.
Have you been following the story at all?

Posted by: Jay at December 20, 2011 09:50 AM (3LaGb)

78 I view that as the opposite. It is a reason for getting rid of them.


Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2011 09:06 AM (YdQQY)
Exactly!The last time I checked, the Constitution doesn't give the federal government authority to crowd out private enterprise in a baldfaced attempt at buying votes act as a mortgage broker.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJconservative) at December 20, 2011 09:51 AM (nEUpB)

79 I'd rather have someone of average intelligence who had common sense than someone with a Messiah complex with Marilyn Vos Savant's IQ
If you actually believe Obama has a high IQ, you haven't been paying attention.

Posted by: Jay at December 20, 2011 09:51 AM (3LaGb)

80 2nd looksee @ Mike Huckabee?

Posted by: soothie at December 20, 2011 09:51 AM (vzLhi)

81 Soylent Green is coming....
Posted by: Barack "Malcom-Y" Obama at December 20, 2011 09:43 AM (GaIwz)
Uh, hunh, uh, hnnnn, oh God, ah ah aaaaaah!

Posted by: Soylent Green at December 20, 2011 09:51 AM (DrWcr)

82
How fucking stupid can you be?

Posted by: dagny at December 20, 2011 09:46 AM (1RaCw)
You have no idea.

Posted by: 52% at December 20, 2011 09:52 AM (nEUpB)

83 Please help me understand the House's position here. Help me understand why this cut is a cost while the Bush cuts were a gain!

There are a lot of things going on here...

First off, 6% tax-cut, which may-or-may-not be long-term (forget "permanent" for a minute) doesn't really do much to stimulate the economy. And since, by definition, it is not targeted at wealth creators (businesses still pay "their" part, after all), it's not helping them hire anyone, either.

Second, a two-month moratorium on the payroll tax (even if it did target business) would cost more for business to implement than it would save. The SS Tax laws are every bit as labyrinthine as the regular Income Tax, and so the programming that everyone uses to calculate that part of withholding is fairly complex. Reworking that code to work correctly is just not something that can be done in time, and once it is done, it will have cost more than the "cut" saved.

There's more than that, too, but most everything else is purely "politics" and "optics."

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 20, 2011 09:52 AM (8y9MW)

84 Hey! Where's Perry?

Posted by: Phineas at December 20, 2011 09:52 AM (DrWcr)

85 If you actually believe Obama has a high IQ, you haven't been paying attention.
But if you think he's stupid, you haven't figured out that he is evil.

Posted by: kdny at December 20, 2011 09:53 AM (4vhzd)

86 The last time I checked, the Constitution doesn't give the federal government authority to crowd out private enterprise in a baldfaced attempt at buying votes act as a mortgage broker.


Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJconservative) at December 20, 2011 09:51 AM (nEUpB)
You call it the Constitution - I call it the Document of White Male Dominance over the awesomeness that is WYMEN.

Posted by: Elena Kagan at December 20, 2011 09:53 AM (GaIwz)

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 20, 2011 09:54 AM (8y9MW)

88 The only thing Obama has ever piloted is the push cart of racial greivances.

Posted by: kdny at December 20, 2011 09:49 AM (4vhzd)
He kicks ass on a bicycle....

Posted by: Tami at December 20, 2011 09:54 AM (X6akg)

89 I don''t understand really. Why would conservatives be opposed to the payroll tax cut?

As was explained above, a tax rate adjustment is only really a cut if it's permanent (or planned to be so) because that's when the economy can adjust to the new rate as well. A holiday of this sort is just a gimmick like any stimulus. And the only purpose the gimmicks serve these days is postponing, however briefly, the end of federal deficit spending. Which isn't good in any sense.

Posted by: Methos at December 20, 2011 09:54 AM (sOXQX)

90
If you actually believe Obama has a high IQ, you haven't been paying attention.

Posted by: Jay at December 20, 2011 09:51 AM (3LaGb)
I was engaging in hyperbole. Now I shall engage a bagel and a cup of te´

Posted by: The Robot Devil at December 20, 2011 09:55 AM (GaIwz)

91 He kicks ass on a bicycle....
Posted by: Tami at December 20, 2011 09:54 AM (X6akg)
Lance Armstrong kicked ass on a bicycle, Zero just becomes a wheeled sissy boy.

Posted by: maddogg at December 20, 2011 09:56 AM (OlN4e)

92 2nd looksee @ Mike Huckabee?

He's Michelle Obama with a Bible.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at December 20, 2011 09:56 AM (ZKzrr)

93 49
Boeing made some sort of concessions

Boeing agreed to build the next generation of 737 in the Seattle area, rather than shopping around for a new production site.

Posted by: Fox 2! at December 20, 2011 09:58 AM (RJOgX)

94
But if you think he's stupid, you haven't figured out that he is evil.

Posted by: kdny at December 20, 2011 09:53 AM (4vhzd)
I don't think that Obama is literally stupid, although I certainly don't think that he is more than, at most, reasonably bright. I think his real problem is incredible intellectual laziness and ignorance, which stems in part from his life as an AA recipient, and in part from his Revolutionary upbringing that cut off all access to other ideas.But, he is still a Stuttering Clusterfuck of a Miserable failure.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJconservative) at December 20, 2011 09:58 AM (nEUpB)

95 We need a Zany post to counter these Doom posts.

Posted by: soothie at December 20, 2011 09:58 AM (KUrJA)

96 He's Michelle Obama with a Bible.

Indeed. If you're afraid of a Theocracy, electing Mike Huckabee is not the surest way to avoid it.

Though I expect the original comment was kidding.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 20, 2011 09:58 AM (8y9MW)

97 The serious question here is who looks wimpier on a bicycle? Comrade Mom Jeans or Pee Wee (winkie twister) Herman?

Posted by: maddogg at December 20, 2011 09:58 AM (OlN4e)

98 Lance Armstrong kicked ass on a bicycle, Zero just becomes a wheeled sissy boy.I've always been a Greg Lemond fan. Took a shotgun blast to the chest and kept on biking.

Posted by: The Robot Devil at December 20, 2011 09:59 AM (GaIwz)

99 The test is not if you do the right thing when it's easy, or even when it means you don't do as well. The test is when you know that the right thing screws you, and hard, and you do it regardless.

Fiat justicia, ruat caelum...

Posted by: DarkLord© for Prez!
This message brought to you by Morons Against HTML Abuse
at December 20, 2011 09:59 AM (GBXon)

100 Posted by: Elena Kagan at December 20, 2011 09:53 AM (GaIwz)

Preach it Sister!

Only when male hegemony is ended, if necessary at the muzzle of a gun, will we be able to reach the true heights of power and respect and self-actualization that the Goddess Gaia has granted us as her only legitimate successor to the throne of power.

Posted by: all sex is rape at December 20, 2011 10:01 AM (nEUpB)

101 I took the jump to the Maine paper. Fools.

Paraphrase: "The data isn't accurate, because of joint returns."

Well then, by all means, stay the course. The fact that there technically might be 10% more people paying taxes than receiving welfare is

no

big

deal

Idiots. Fools. Unbelievable...

Posted by: RobM1981 at December 20, 2011 10:02 AM (ap+5W)

102 Okay, before I post this we should be past 100 comments.

So: OT

The current MFM spin on the Primary race is, apparently, that Mitt is inevitable (not news) and that the !Romneys do not actually indicate any dissatisfaction with Mitt Romney, but rather that Mitt is "That guy your dad wanted you to date in High School, so you're looking anywhere else before you finally decide to date him."

Yes, that's a more-or-less accurate quote from the ABC Radio talking heads (WBAP in Dallas/Fort Worth uses ABC for their National news).

Congratulations, Mitt: You've won the coveted ABC Endorsement.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 20, 2011 10:02 AM (8y9MW)

103 Robot Devil, that must've been one hell of a race!

Posted by: Lincolntf at December 20, 2011 10:03 AM (hiMsy)

104 NO BAILOUTS FOR STATES!
If your state leaders are as irresponsible as those in IL, CA, ME, WA- then you deserve what you get.
You're also crazy if you don't think that welfare cheats plan their residences carefully. I was at a ski resortrecently and overheard a group of 25-35-ish year-old ski bums discussing how they are moving their residences from Idaho to Washington state, seeing as how it is so much easier to get on state aid in WA.
You are paying for their right to avoid work and ski all day. Thanks, Washington!

Posted by: Jade Sea irritable and in pain after surgery at December 20, 2011 10:03 AM (LsJNU)

105 Posted by: DarkLord© for Prez! at December 20, 2011 09:59 AM (GBXon)

Unless it may effect my reelection...in which case burn it all down!

Posted by: Barack Hussein Obama at December 20, 2011 10:04 AM (nEUpB)

106 Pelosi (on Fox) just claimed that allowing the Payroll Tax holiday would be a "tax increase." Didn't she deny that allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire would be a tax increase, just a return to the rates that they should have been all along?

Posted by: Fox 2! at December 20, 2011 10:04 AM (RJOgX)

107 ....but rather that Mitt is "That guy
your dad wanted you to date in High School, so you're looking anywhere
else before you finally decide to date him."

Umm, my dad would have been upset if I dated men in high school..

Posted by: The Robot Devil at December 20, 2011 10:04 AM (GaIwz)

108 We are doomed in part because our President sucks cock.

Posted by: Mr Pink at December 20, 2011 10:06 AM (yTN4r)

109 103
Robot Devil, that must've been one hell of a race!

Yea, the Tour De France is cool. Google "Dogs Tour De France", more crashes than NASCAR.

Posted by: The Robot Devil at December 20, 2011 10:07 AM (GaIwz)

110 Umm, my dad would have been upset if I dated men in high school..

There's that, too.

I just couldn't help but laugh at the condescending, "we know better than you" tone the guy was using. As though any dissent towards Mitt Romney must be because of some desire to avoid the "clean cut, responsible one," not because of actual ideological differences.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 20, 2011 10:08 AM (8y9MW)

111 If my sister dated mitt, my dad would have needled him incessantly about his magic underoos. Just sayin..

Posted by: Shecky at December 20, 2011 10:08 AM (NMBDj)

112 He kicks looks like an ass on a bicycle....
Posted by: Tami at December 20, 2011 09:54 AM (X6akg)
FIFY

Posted by: Insomniac at December 20, 2011 10:08 AM (DrWcr)

113 That is a fun kitteh.

Happy Hanukkah to our Jewish morons!

Posted by: Y-not at December 20, 2011 10:09 AM (5H6zj)

114 @111

You may have missed the comments, but several of our LDS morons have asked that we lay off the underwear jokes. I think it's the least we can do. And, frankly, as a Perry supporter myself, I'd rather your comments not be associated with my candidate who, as far as I've been able to glean, holds no ill-will toward Mormons.

Posted by: Y-not at December 20, 2011 10:13 AM (5H6zj)

115 113 That is a fun kitteh. Happy Hanukkah to our Jewish morons!
Posted by: Y-not at December 20, 2011 10:09 AM (5H6zj)
Isn't that Chappy Chanukkah?

Posted by: Insomniac at December 20, 2011 10:13 AM (v+QvA)

116 Isn't that Chappy Chanukkah?

I've heard it both ways.

Posted by: Shawn Spencer at December 20, 2011 10:14 AM (5H6zj)

117 At the risk of incurring the wrath of, oh, pretty much everyone, here is a link to Jeb Bush's Op-Ed in the Wall Street Journal. It's pretty good -- a nice, straightforward refutation of regulation and government interference.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJconservative) at December 20, 2011 10:15 AM (nEUpB)

118 He kicks looks like an ass on a bicycle....

Posted by: Tami at December 20, 2011 09:54 AM (X6akg)
FIFY

Posted by: Insomniac at December 20, 2011 10:08 AM (DrWcr)
Your fix is more direct....mine was just implied.

Posted by: Tami at December 20, 2011 10:15 AM (X6akg)

119 Apologies. I have an archie bunker type dad. I work with several LDS who I esteem highly. No harm meant to anyone.

Posted by: Shecky at December 20, 2011 10:15 AM (NMBDj)

120 You may have missed the comments, but several of our LDS morons have asked that we lay off the underwear jokes.

Since when did we have to target Mormons for underwear jokes? Here I thought those were evergreen...

Though honestly, evergreen underwear would get kinda scratchy.

Posted by: DarkLord© for Prez!
This message brought to you by Morons Against HTML Abuse
at December 20, 2011 10:15 AM (GBXon)

121 Posted by: Y-not at December 20, 2011 10:09 AM (5H6zj)

Hanukkah Sameach!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJconservative) at December 20, 2011 10:17 AM (nEUpB)

122 The Senate is on vacation. The disagreement is between the House leadership and some Republican members.

Posted by: Jordan at December 20, 2011 10:18 AM (RSG1I)

123 I said it before and I'll say it again, I expect the economy to "seize up" sometime next year. There are too many unknowns in the American economy to make proper business decisions. The fault is almost entirely with the political system we have, including the electorate.

The Senate won't pass a budget, the Bush tax cuts are still short term temporary, payroll tax cut is temporary and in limbo, major business decisions are hijacked by the government (Boeing, Keystone) for political purposes, Obamacare is a go or no go, will the FED inject more cash or not.

Everyone of these items involves major expense on businesses that affect the bottom line yet no rational business manager has any clue as to the outcome.

Posted by: President Chet Roosevelt at December 20, 2011 10:21 AM (K+mY0)

124 The Senate is on vacation. The disagreement is between the House leadership and some Republican members.
Posted by: Jordan at December 20, 2011 10:18 AM (RSG1I)


I'm not on vacation. My vacation is a couple of weeks of Active Duty every year. Call the bastards back and make them do their job.

Posted by: nevergiveup at December 20, 2011 10:22 AM (i6RpT)

125 The Senate is on vacation
What do you bet the entire Senate's vacation cost less than the SCOAMF's?
Dreidel, dreidel, dreidel, I made you out of clay . . .

Posted by: alexthechick at December 20, 2011 10:23 AM (VtjlW)

126 SEAN PENN - COMMUNIST ASSHOLE.

Posted by: Lemon Kitten at December 20, 2011 10:23 AM (O7ksG)

127 If you need a last minute gift for someone, restaurant.com is having a $1 sale on $25 restaurant gift certificates. That's about the cheapest I've ever seen them. Enter the code 'Joy' at checkout.

Posted by: Tami at December 20, 2011 10:24 AM (X6akg)

128 I said it before and I'll say it again, I expect the economy to "seize up" sometime next year.

On the up-side, I'm getting a big (really big, from my experience) bonus next year, so I'll be investing in copper and lead, IYKWIM.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 20, 2011 10:24 AM (8y9MW)

129 Even more Doom

Dutch
scientists create Captain Tripps



What could go wrong eh? Randall Flagg hanging about there?


Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2011 10:24 AM (YdQQY)

130 Even more Doom

Dutch scientists create Captain Tripps
What could go wrong eh? Randall Flagg hanging about there?


Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2011 10:24 AM (YdQQY)
Yeah I saw that, and why are Dutch Scientists doing that?

Posted by: nevergiveup at December 20, 2011 10:25 AM (i6RpT)

131 Yeah I saw that, and why are Dutch Scientists doing that?

I guess they have to be prepared for the great Euro collapse on the horizon.

Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2011 10:26 AM (YdQQY)

132 Yeah I saw that, and why are Dutch Scientists doing that?

Maybe they're embracing the DOOM? Some of us vacillate between wanting to hasten and postpone the apocalypse. Why shouldn't Dutch scientists?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 20, 2011 10:26 AM (8y9MW)

133 Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2011 10:24 AM (YdQQY) Yeah I saw that, and why are Dutch Scientists doing that?
Posted by: nevergiveup at December 20, 2011 10:25 AM (i6RpT)
Huh. I haven't the slightest idea.

Posted by: Randall Flagg at December 20, 2011 10:28 AM (v+QvA)

134

Normal
0




Because
I'm a giver

Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2011 10:30 AM (YdQQY)

135 Posted by: TheQuietMan at December 20, 2011 09:08 AM (1Jaio)

Check this out.

Posted by: blue star at December 20, 2011 10:34 AM (y8nHf)

136 Also from ZH: Greek budget deficit to pass 10% of GDP; country stops most cash outlays. AFAIK, the US's deficit is right around 10% too.

Posted by: blue star at December 20, 2011 10:36 AM (y8nHf)

137
I fear Monty is wrong. The single best book ever written on economics remains The Wealth of Nations. It is long, but it is not jargon laden, and anyone who can read this blog can understand it, learn from it, and find wonderful quotes to use in any economic argument.
Monty (as an "Austrian" economist) will undoubtedly take me to task for ignoring the numerous errors in Smith'spioneering work. I cannot dispute that there are errors. Even the errors, however,are pregnant with insight. For example, Smith is wrong about productive and unproductive labor. But if you read with just a bit of care, you will see that the distinction heis groping for is the distinction between capital goods and consumption (including government consumption) goods. If you substitute for "productive labor" the term "capital goods"(which will make uswealthier in the future) and substitute for "unproductive labor" the term "consumption goods" (which will not make us richer in the future), everything falls into place.Smith even sees that that some goods, e.g. new houses,are both consumption goods that provide immediate service and capital goods that provide future service.
I have never understood why Austrian economists, who cancomprehend Menger(and sodeservedly admire him), find it impossible tocomprehend Smith.

Posted by: JeffM at December 20, 2011 10:36 AM (zD0RO)

138 Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2011 10:30 AM (YdQQY)

Damn good book. But his expanded version was a bit tedious.

What are you drinking this morning?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJconservative) at December 20, 2011 10:36 AM (nEUpB)

139 Yeah I saw that, and why are Dutch Scientists doing that?

SCIENCE!

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 20, 2011 10:37 AM (FkKjr)

140 so I'll be investing in copper and lead, IYKWIM.

Don't forget to get nitrates to make that investment really fly.

Posted by: Buzzsaw at December 20, 2011 10:38 AM (tf9Ne)

141 Posted by: JeffM at December 20, 2011 10:36 AM (zD0RO)

Because he didn't write in Austrian?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJconservative) at December 20, 2011 10:38 AM (nEUpB)

142 Damn good book. But his expanded version was a bit tedious.What are you drinking this morning?

Yes, that is the ONLY book by him that I liked.

Drinking water, a lot of it.

Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2011 10:38 AM (YdQQY)

143 Let's try this again: Good morning, morons

Posted by: Truman North at December 20, 2011 10:40 AM (I2LwF)

144 DOOM related:

I was shopping online last night and ran across this game - Homefront. It came out in March and I've seen it before but never paid much mind until yesterday, when it came out that Kim Jong Il had died and the speculation about what the DPRK would look like under the rule of his son, Kim Jong Un.

This game was written by John Milius, writer and director of Red Dawn, one of the best movies of all time. Remember, this came out in March, now see how eerily it looks like yesterday's news coverage.

Homefront: Bring the Shivering Douchechills

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 20, 2011 10:40 AM (XE2Oo)

145 Ace is up!

Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2011 10:41 AM (YdQQY)

146 Think the BLS numbers are a pile of horse***t now?

Well, they're gonna get worse:

White House Politicizing Bureau of Labor Statistics (PJM Exclusive)

...

A retired career economist at the U.S. Department of Labor told PJ Media the administration wants to put its own political allies into the bureau, eschewing promotion from within:

Traditionally, the deputy commissioner position has been filled by promotion from within the ranks of experienced BLS career professionals, and when Rones retired from the deputy job last summer, Hall proposed promoting a highly qualified associate commissioner [John Galvin] to the position. The labor secretary and deputy secretary rebuffed that and made it clear that they wanted someone of their choosing from outside the existing career cadre.

The Senate could get involved by exercising its Senate confirmation process for a new commissioner — but the administration has circumvented the process by not nominating anyone. Nominations usually are announced as early as six months before the expiration of a term, but with a few weeks left before Hall leaves office, it is clear no commissioner will be running the bureau through much of 2012.

This has led to speculation that the White House is trying to circumvent the Senate so as to appoint a deputy whose position does not need Senate confirmation, and who would defer to the White House and to politically aggressive Labor Secretary Hilda Solis.

One source told PJ Media the president would like to install Betsey Stevenson as the deputy commissioner. Stevenson is a Princeton academic and loyal political ally who worked as chief economist for Solis. Stevenson would be rejected by many in the Senate, which has regarded political allies as inappropriate for running the nonpartisan BLS.

Posted by: Ed Anger - Certified Kos Kid at December 20, 2011 10:41 AM (7+pP9)

147 I have never understood why Austrian economists, who cancomprehend
Menger(and sodeservedly admire him), find it impossible tocomprehend
Smith.

I like thinking big thoughts. I argue here quite frequently, and (if I'm not being too immodest) do a pretty good job. Adam Smith puts me to sleep.

For most people, Wealth of Nations is completely unnecessary. For that matter, so are Road to Serfdom and The Constitution of Liberty. Most people aren't going to read (today) what was fairly dense reading even for the 1950's, let alone the 1770's.

It's not that Monty or I cannot "comprehend" Smith, it's that most people- who nevertheless need that knowledge- won't even try. So we must "dumb down" the information to the point that they can at least understand the basics.

I'm sorry if that offends your classical sensibilities, but that's the way it is.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 20, 2011 10:41 AM (8y9MW)

148 noodles

Posted by: soothie at December 20, 2011 10:42 AM (Y4TdB)

149 Yeah I saw that, and why are Dutch Scientists doing that? Distraught neo-malthusians

Posted by: Jean at December 20, 2011 10:42 AM (WkuV6)

150
Posted by: nevergiveup at December 20, 2011 10:25 AM (i6RpT)
Wasn't that story posted here a few weeks ago?Anyway, there are legitimate reasons for doing such research. A big segment of protein research is making mutations in important regions/domains of proteins and seeing what happens to overall structure and function (sometimes this research is driven under a particular hypothesis or sometimes it's done "blind", that is, the researchers make a mutation on a whim and see what happens). In this case, I surmise that the research group were making specific mutations of the hemagglutinin and neuraminidase proteins (the "H" and "N" parts of the H5N1 influenza flu strain acronym, respectively) because they predicted the particular domains of these proteins are important for the infectivity of the virus and thus would be perfect targets for neutralizing therapeutic agents against the virus. Alas, they were right - even moreso than expected.

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at December 20, 2011 10:43 AM (9hSKh)

151 The Dutch are hard at work to fix the Gray Wave problem!

Posted by: epobirs at December 20, 2011 10:43 AM (kcfmt)

152 So, bring on the China collapse. Maybe it'll finally put a stake in the heart of that monster.
The China Collapse will just fuel relocation into the Socialist State of Mexico.

Posted by: Mr. Obvious at December 20, 2011 10:48 AM (2uovW)

153 As one of the punks, I'm all for a Soylent Green solution. Let the Boomers reap the harvest of their self-indulgence when their kids sacrifice them to save themselves.

Posted by: Mr_UNIVAC at December 20, 2011 10:50 AM (4mIHO)

154 I used to work with a lady who is a dead-ringer for Tanya Harding.
Did she do home video porn?

Posted by: Mr. Obvious at December 20, 2011 10:53 AM (2uovW)

155 154
I used to work with a lady who is a dead-ringer for Tanya Harding.
Did she do home video porn?
Posted by: Mr. Obvious at December 20, 2011 10:53 AM (2uovW)
She does work on knees, but not that way.

Posted by: Insomniac at December 20, 2011 10:55 AM (v+QvA)

156 Did she do home video porn?

Good Lord, I hope not.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 20, 2011 10:55 AM (8y9MW)

157 It's not that Monty or I cannot "comprehend" Smith, it's that most
people- who nevertheless need that knowledge- won't even try.

It's a problem of language, not of ideas. Adam Smith communicates using the language of his time, which is hard for modern people to assimilate (much in the same way that modern people find it hard to read Shakespeare or philosophers like Locke). I do disagree about Hayek's "The Constitution of Liberty", though; I think a person of above-average intelligence would have no trouble understanding it.

If you try to read the satire of Daniel Defoe, the social commentary of Samuel Pepys, or the history of Herodotus, you will experience the same problem: it's not the ideas or concepts or themes, but simply the language used. Those men were communicating for their own times, not for ours. They were writing for topicality, not for posterity.

I continue to push Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson because it distills the lessons of Bastiat's The Law in simpler language.

Posted by: Monty at December 20, 2011 10:57 AM (FC+dS)

158 P.J. O'Rourke has a recent book that is a good introduction to 'The Wealth of Nations' for those unlikely to read the work itself.

Linkage

Posted by: epobirs at December 20, 2011 10:58 AM (kcfmt)

159 P.J. O'Rourke has a recent book that is a good introduction to 'The Wealth of Nations' for those unlikely to read the work itself.
I can't imagine O'Rourke's book is any shorter...
Wealth of Nations isn't exactly an epic fantasy novel.

Posted by: Entropy, and if you don't agree you hate America and want Obama to win at December 20, 2011 10:59 AM (AuQqX)

160 Also, you can betotally ignorant on 300 years of economic theory and you won't have missed anything. Wealth of Nations is pretty accessible.

Posted by: Entropy, and if you don't agree you hate America and want Obama to win at December 20, 2011 11:01 AM (AuQqX)

161 Ah, Microsoft gets maligned again. So many people fail to realize how much under the hood stuff originated from Redmond. You can go without ever buying a single Microsoft product but still benefit from the company's contributions to various RFCs and other standards. In fact, not doing so would be pretty difficult as the stuff is so pervasive.

Posted by: epobirs at December 20, 2011 11:04 AM (kcfmt)

162 Really kind of basic actually. Division of labor (his great contribution) is a good read. But then he spends the rest of his time talking about things like 'what is money' and the history of currency. Basic stuff. Entry level. If anything, read the bit on Labor and skip the stuff on Currency because it's all blindingly obvious anyway.
So is the bit on labor, really, but he does lay it out well.
It is 300 years old and one of the earliest crudest free-market treatise...

Posted by: Entropy, and if you don't agree you hate America and want Obama to win at December 20, 2011 11:05 AM (AuQqX)

163 Posted by: epobirs at December 20, 2011 11:04 AM (kcfmt)
My point is that MS didn't actually invent anything. They usually change or improve. TCP/IP stack? Berkeley labs (and BSD Unix). Modern memory management? Stanford. Mouse-driven UI? Xerox PARC (which Apple stole, and then MS stole it from Apple). A garbage-collected typesafe software runtime? Probably SmallTalk, which James Gosling transformed into Java, which MS stole and rebranded as .NET.I can't think of a single truly innovative thing that MS has ever done. I'm not bashing them unduly; I'm not saying they're bad. But they most assuredly are not innovators -- and in their defense have never really tried to be, PR marketing-speak notwithstanding.

Posted by: Monty at December 20, 2011 11:08 AM (FC+dS)

164 I can't think of a single truly innovative thing that MS has ever done.
Windows 3.1.

Posted by: Entropy, and if you don't agree you hate America and want Obama to win at December 20, 2011 11:11 AM (AuQqX)

165 Didn't MS invent DOS?

Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2011 11:13 AM (YdQQY)

166 164
I can't think of a single truly innovative thing that MS has ever done.

They were pioneers of the Blue Screen of Death. So there's that.

Posted by: Insomniac at December 20, 2011 11:13 AM (v+QvA)

167 Rick Perry is in Maquoketa at 11:45, De Witt at 1:30, Clinton at 3:30, and Davenport at 5:30. Bachmann has 9 stops scheduled for today (including Maquoketa and De Witt in the early evening), Santorum 4 and Newt? Two, grocery store in Mt. Pleasant and at the airport for a business roundtable in Ottumwa. Rombly, none.

Newt doesn't have any other stops in Iowa scheduled in December and neither does Romney.

For today and what's left of December it looks like this: 24 stops for Perry, Paul with 8, Santorum with 9 and Bachmann with 9, Newt with 2 and Romney with 0.

That might be an idea of who has the money and the organization--or nothing. But, at the least, Perry is going after a good showing in Iowa pretty hard. Maybe his staff is seeing something or are going all-in, last gasp.

But, I guess it all doesn't matter because Romney got the all-important Bob Dole endorsement. That's like a +10 of inevitability.

Posted by: Jimmuy at December 20, 2011 11:14 AM (hh/BN)

168 Didn't MS invent DOS?

Nope. It was a copy (and a pretty flagrant one) of Gary Kildall's CP/M from Digital Research Inc (DRI).

Posted by: Monty at December 20, 2011 11:18 AM (FC+dS)

169 The government can clear the land, and maybe even plow the field, but it takes a famer to plant the seed and grow the crops.

Posted by: Mister Money at December 20, 2011 11:19 AM (wN82N)

170 Didn't MS invent DOS?
No.
IBM invented DOS, Bill Gates bought it off them for a pittance because they thought it was probably worthless.

Posted by: Entropy, and if you don't agree you hate America and want Obama to win at December 20, 2011 11:20 AM (AuQqX)

171 Who the hell is going to want a personal computer in their home? There's no consumer market for computers.

Posted by: Entropy, and if you don't agree you hate America and want Obama to win at December 20, 2011 11:21 AM (AuQqX)

172 This New Coke tastes fantastic!

Posted by: Entropy, and if you don't agree you hate America and want Obama to win at December 20, 2011 11:22 AM (AuQqX)

173 (Actually, it tasted like Pepsi).

Posted by: Entropy, and if you don't agree you hate America and want Obama to win at December 20, 2011 11:22 AM (AuQqX)

174 LOL, my first computer was a Kapro running on CP/M.

Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2011 11:24 AM (YdQQY)

175 IBM invented DOS

IBM had no hand in it. Kildall created CP/M in part while he was working at Intel. It ran first on the 4004 and then on the 8080/8088 series of microprocessors. IBM wanted to license CP/M from Kildall, but Kildall missed out due to a combination of bad luck and incompetence; and Bill Gates basically copied CP/M and offered that to IBM instead.

Posted by: Monty at December 20, 2011 11:24 AM (FC+dS)

176 Microsoft made many of us quite comfortable. I spent several years of my life figuring out ways ofmaking their products work for my customers. It was not always easy. But then back in those days we got paid by the hour.
That was good. TY MS.

Posted by: Mister Money at December 20, 2011 11:25 AM (wN82N)

177 CP/M was most popular on the Zilog Z80 CPU, which is barely remembered today but was hugely popular when PC's were first getting started. I remember hearing now Zilog was going to ruin Intel. Good times, good times.

Posted by: Monty at December 20, 2011 11:26 AM (FC+dS)

178 OMG!!Ace has been taken captive by The Daily Cannibal!

Posted by: chuck in st paul at December 20, 2011 11:28 AM (EhYdw)

179 127 If you need a last minute gift for someone, restaurant.com is having a $1 sale on $25 restaurant gift certificates. That's about the cheapest I've ever seen them. Enter the code 'Joy' at checkout.


They just booted off the website and changed to deal to $25 for $10 when logged back on....

Posted by: Mr. Obvious at December 20, 2011 11:28 AM (2uovW)

180 Ah yes, my first real computer had 640k and dual floppys running MS/DOS 3.1. I upgraded to a 10MB hard drive for a small fortune.
Soon I was able to dump the Commodore.

Posted by: Mister Money at December 20, 2011 11:28 AM (wN82N)

181 They just booted off the website and changed to deal to $25 for $10 when logged back on....

Posted by: Mr. Obvious at December 20, 2011 11:28 AM (2uovW)
No....their website does seem to be having some trouble....but...when you put the word 'JOY' in at checkout, it will change from $10 to $1.I just did it.

Posted by: Tami at December 20, 2011 11:31 AM (X6akg)

182 Did it have a monochrome green monitor built into the case and come with a line matrix printer?

Posted by: Entropy, and if you don't agree you hate America and want Obama to win at December 20, 2011 11:33 AM (AuQqX)

183 OMG, and I almost forgot about my Acousti-Coupler, a 300 Baud dialup async modem. Those were the days, plenty of spare time waiting for the connection to Prodigy. You could go get a cup of coffee, find a bagel, and when you got back, you were nearly ready to logon.

Posted by: Mister Money at December 20, 2011 11:34 AM (wN82N)

184 Yup to the monitor, no to the matrix printer, couldn't afford it at the time.

Posted by: Mister Money at December 20, 2011 11:36 AM (wN82N)

185 Probably SmallTalk, which James Gosling transformed into Java, which MS stole and rebranded as .NET.
Java needed to be stolen and rebranded though.
The only thing Java does anymore is download viruses and/or crash and freeze upwhen people write it poorly.
Kind of a let down... I habitually disable it now. Only time I ever see the Java console start up I know it's time to kill some processes and run Malwarebytes because it's downloading viruses off ad-content again.

Posted by: Entropy, and if you don't agree you hate America and want Obama to win at December 20, 2011 11:40 AM (AuQqX)

186 That, and Microsoft Windows Messenger.
Kill it dead. Kill it now. If you see it come back, run your antivirus and then kill it again.

Posted by: Entropy, and if you don't agree you hate America and want Obama to win at December 20, 2011 11:41 AM (AuQqX)

187 Ain't good for nuttin but downloading viruses.

Posted by: Entropy, and if you don't agree you hate America and want Obama to win at December 20, 2011 11:41 AM (AuQqX)

188 Did it have a monochrome green monitor built into the case and come with a line matrix printer?

I knew a guy who had one of those "100 pound" portables.

Mine was a newer vintage but I did get the genuine Kapro/Diablo daisy wheel printer (which I still have sitting on the top shelf of my closet). Printer and computer with monochrome monitor and 20M hard drive cost just over $2000.

A few years later I paid $1100 upgrading to 720K ram, a 30M hard drive, a Video7 EGA card and a 14" Magnavox monitor.

Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2011 11:42 AM (YdQQY)

189 AOL...
Can't use the phone while you're online.

Posted by: Entropy, and if you don't agree you hate America and want Obama to win at December 20, 2011 11:44 AM (AuQqX)

190 I'm not quite that old. I got an IBM PS2 with a monochrome green monitor and a spokewheel-fed linematrix printer, one of my youth pastors gave it to me because he didn't know what else to do with it, when I was like 12.
I took it because I figgured I could always use a bit more hard disk storage space, and I could see what the guy had on it.
Then I found out the damn thing had no hard drive. Still have it, I think. Just in case I ever find the Secret of the Universe and it's stored on a 5 1/2" floppy diskette.

Posted by: Entropy, and if you don't agree you hate America and want Obama to win at December 20, 2011 11:49 AM (AuQqX)

191 My first computer sported 8" winchester floppys and a circular amber colored monitor. It looked like a Singer Sewing Machine Case and you'ld lay it on it's side and the bottom would drop down to become the keyboard. It was called an "Osborne" and was considered portable.....at 27 lbs.

Posted by: Mr. Obvious at December 20, 2011 11:49 AM (2uovW)

192 I would like someone to explain to me how gold and silver went from being contrary, or hedge, investments, to rising and falling in lockstep with the financial indices. Seems that for years, when it looked like the shtf, gold and silver went up as the markets went down.
Now and for the last several months, that contrary position has disappeared.
What gives, and I hope someone can give me something besides massive market manipulation, cuz that's all I've got.
Paranoia aside, there's got to be a more logical reason.

Posted by: Jack Mehoff at December 20, 2011 11:50 AM (ORvjs)

193
Monty, since you throw a dig at Microsoft andseem to be fairly ignorant, let me clarify things. All the stuff that you undoubtedly think is so cool about Apple came from developments at Xerox Park in the 70's. Everybody is about repackaging. The original PC stuff started out so lame precisely because IBM was trying to protect its market for the computer systems above the PC things like System 36 and System 38. Those pieces of iron cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. And if IBM hadn't been so intent of protecting those markets, IBM would not be known as a service company today.
In the Crytonomicon, Stephenson creates a Lord Of The Rings metaphor for people in the computer world where the people who think up really novel things are elves and implementers are dwarves. Well, speaking as a dwarf, Steve Jobs was an elf who was able to make hobbits think they were elves by buying his products.

Posted by: Rick at December 20, 2011 11:52 AM (0+Xz8)

194 #163

Well, there you go. You just demonstrated you have no idea what you're talking about on this subject and are just regurgitating popular propaganda. Because they didn't originate the monumental stuff they don't get credit for the additions and refinements? That is like say the guy who first thought of hooking a motor to a wheel is all that matters and everything since can be ignored as minor details.

.NET is not remotely a ripoff of Java. It had elements in common in the early days to offer a similar write-once-run-everywhere functionality but it turned out nobody cared and that stopped being a focus many years ago. The multi-platform aspects can be pretty much ignored if you have no use for them. As it is, they get more use for code re-use within Microsoft's own platforms.

The core reason for .NET's existence was to provide a better framework to build Windows apps around. The portability aspect was over promoted by the marketing people. The legal department also liked it because it helped blunt some of the pressure from the government.

No, CP/M didn't run on the 4004. That was essentially the core of a calculator that was overgrown to show a real CPU would soon be possible at the micro level. The 8008 was the first chip that could really be used as a CPU and merit an OS.

Digital Research lost the contract due to neither. Dorothy Kildall, an attorney, looked at the contract IBM brought and rejected it outright. She was correct to do so but didn't figure there was another company willing to accept the terms. It was Microsoft's 'incompetence' that won the day because Gates figured getting the IBM business was so critical that it didn't matter what was in the contract. Microsoft wasn't an OS company then and most software companies didn't want to be in the OS business. It wasn't regarded as glamorous by the coders. Microsoft kept trying to get out of the OS business for the decade that followed until it became unavoidable that IBM's internal conflicts would never let them get it right in the small computer realm.

QDOS was indeed a very close CP/M clone. So close that there was an Easter Egg code that would produce a DR copyright notice from it.

Posted by: epobirs at December 20, 2011 11:57 AM (kcfmt)

195 Joe Nocera is a piece of work. His book, "All The Devils Are Here," about the financial crisis is essential reading, but it says nothing about the mortgage market that underlay all that crazy development of derivatives and credit-default swaps. You have to read his book AND "Reckless Endangerment" to get the true picture of what happened. And even the latterfails to exposethe full extent of the unholy alliance between Fannie Mae and Countrywide, which started the whole ball rolling.
Neither liberals nor conservatives are totally right here. It was NOT a crisis fed exclusively by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. But it wouldn't have happened without them. And it was NOT simply a matter of greed and poor risk management on Wall Street, though those were also essential ingredients.
People like Nocera are very invested in their own constructs of what happened.

Posted by: rockmom at December 20, 2011 12:02 PM (NYnoe)

196 Well, there you go. You just demonstrated you have no idea what you're
talking about on this subject and are just regurgitating popular
propaganda.
25 years and counting as a professional programmer, dude. I've spent more time in MS workshops, training seminars, and programmer retreats than I did being married. I've actually talked with people like Dave Cutler (who used a lot of his VMS background to craft Windows NT -- yet more copying) and Herb Sutter. I actually knew the programmers who worked on the Windows API back in the Windows 3.0 days (just ask them how much code they lifted from the MIT Athena project).

Oh, and the principal architect of .NET, Anders Hejlsberg? He cut his teeth on Delphi back in his Borland days. Which explains why .NET looks like a mishmash of Java and Delphi/Pascal -- because it is.

Posted by: Monty at December 20, 2011 12:05 PM (FC+dS)

197 #185

James gosling greatest talent is vamping. Java got started as an excuse for Gosling to continue having a job at Sun after his project for set top box crashed and burned. He knew the performance required for what he pitched wouldn't be available for a good many years but the scam worked. A vast amount of industry focus was diverted into promise that couldn't be kept.

Ultimately, I believe it was detrimental. Advancing HTML standards more rapidly would have had a better payoff. A lot of what we're seeing now in HTML 5 should have been out there a long, long time ago and things were moving quite rapidly before things got derailed by the belief that any real application work should happen in Java.

Posted by: epobirs at December 20, 2011 12:12 PM (kcfmt)

198 Anyway, there are legitimate reasons for doing such research.

Yeah but,
Who wants a job where the introductory training includes,
Leave the room ASAP.
Hit the emergency burn the room button.
Wait for a decon team or you will be shot.

Posted by: DaveA at December 20, 2011 12:16 PM (RDri2)

199 Wow, so everybody at Microsoft didn't come there straight out of school with no professional history? I had no idea!

Delphi was pretty good but had no future, tied as it was to Borland. Hiring Hejlsberg was a very good choice. But was the objective of .Net to advance Windows development or just to copy Java? I'm favoring the former. That .Net and Java have a lot of things in common has more to do with the trends in the entire realm of programming more than any targeted reaction. A better question is whether .NET delivered any improvement for the Windows developer and any innovation in general on top of what had already appeared.

Posted by: epobirs at December 20, 2011 12:20 PM (kcfmt)

200 Well, MS may be an "asshole" company and they may have stole a lot of their stuff but I do give them credit for one thing. They were responsible for standardizing the PC. I no longer have to buy sound cards based on what games most often are compatible with the Sound Card. I also no longer have to load memory expanders using a .bat file and a config.sys file just to get a game to load.

Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2011 12:24 PM (YdQQY)

201 NERRRDS!

Posted by: Ogre at December 20, 2011 12:27 PM (Zw/H7)

202 They were responsible for standardizing the PC.

Actually, that was the hardware vendors more than MS. Back in the early days, PCs had a complete mishmash of hardware requirements: IBM had both ISA and MicroChannel; AST and Compaq and EISA; and there were some other weird configurations out there as well. And that's not even getting into the external buses or networking "standards": SCSI, ATA, (E)IDE; Ethernet, Token Ring; and Centronics Parallel or serial for printing; serial or "PS/2" for mouse/keyboard. It was a hot mess.

Eventually as manufacturing moved to Asia and the price-competition heated up, customers forced the hardware manufacturers to standardized first on ISA, then on EISA, then PCI as the standard PC bus; it forced TCP/IP over Ethernet as the standard for networking; and it forced USB as the standard device bus.

I don't miss the days of having to mess with DIP switches or actually re-solder wires to get a video card or modem to work in my machine, I'll tell you that.

Posted by: Monty at December 20, 2011 12:31 PM (FC+dS)

203 The standardization of the PC BIOS probably had more impact than any other piece of software in the PC space. Early on, IBM had a patent on the BIOS and so "clones" couldn't perfectly duplicate the IBM PC's workings -- thus software often wouldn't work correctly or wouldn't work at all. But then when Phoenix and AMI came up with not just compatible but better BIOS software, the entire PC industry moved to their architectures. That meant that clones could not only guarantee software compatibility, but could finally out-compete IBM on features as well as price.

Posted by: Monty at December 20, 2011 12:34 PM (FC+dS)

204 200 Well, MS may be an "asshole" company and they may have stole a lot of their stuff but I do give them credit for one thing. They were responsible for standardizing the PC.____________
Yeah, it's just a shame they had to standardize on crap.
There was much better stuff around. Hell, *IBM* was making better machines when the PC came along; they had a 68000-based machine they were selling for lab work that was, by the accounts I've seen, pretty nice.

Posted by: Anachronda at December 20, 2011 12:36 PM (xGZ+b)

205 191 My first computer sported 8" winchester floppys and a circular amber colored monitor. It looked like a Singer Sewing Machine Case and you'ld lay it on it's side and the bottom would drop down to become the keyboard. It was called an "Osborne" and was considered portable.....at 27 lbs.__________
Dude.
A) Floppies aren't winchesters. B) The Osborne did not have 8" floppies. It had 5 1/4" floppies. C) The Osborne screen was not circular. It was square.
I still have an Osborne. It's been years since I've fired it up.

Posted by: Anachronda at December 20, 2011 12:43 PM (NmR1a)

206 Posted by: Anachronda at December 20, 2011 12:43 PM (NmR1a)

Didn't the Osborne Vixen series have an optional 8" hard-sector floppy disk drive? The standard drives were 400K 5.25" floppies, but I could swear I've seen one with an external Osborne-branded 8" floppy drive hooked up to it. (That machine had a great amber screen for its day.)

Posted by: Monty at December 20, 2011 12:48 PM (FC+dS)

207 206 Posted by: Anachronda at December 20, 2011 12:43 PM (NmR1a)
Didn't the Osborne Vixen series have an optional 8" hard-sector floppy disk drive? The standard drives were 400K 5.25" floppies, but I could swear I've seen one with an external Osborne-branded 8" floppy drive hooked up to it. (That machine had a great amber screen for its day.)_______
I don't know anything about the Vixen; I've never seen one. Well, there might have been one at the Computer History Museum when I went through, but I don't recall it. I'd have to look through my pictures, but I can't get to my personal webserver from work.

Posted by: Anachronda at December 20, 2011 12:50 PM (IrbU4)

208 203 The standardization of the PC BIOS probably had more impact than any other piece of software in the PC space._________
It's just a shame IBM didn't think to put a terminal emulator in their BIOS. Would have changed the world. I'm *still* bitter about that.

Posted by: Anachronda at December 20, 2011 12:51 PM (IrbU4)

209 If anybody had had the slightest idea what the hell they were creating it probably would have all been completely different.
Most of modern computer usage couldn't have even been concieved until the technology originally meant to do something else was already there to tinker and screw with.

Posted by: Entropy, and if you don't agree you hate America and want Obama to win at December 20, 2011 01:50 PM (AuQqX)

210 #203
IBM had a COPYRIGHT on the BIOS. Important difference. They published a lot of the details that other companies might have chosen to keep proprietary. This helped a lot when Compaq produced their 'clean room' version that was almost perfectly compatible with the spec but coded by people with no exposure to the original. Otherwise there could never have been a clone business. We would just have continued to have semi-compatible MS-DOS systems that neededtheir versions of software, like the Tandy 2000 and TI Professional.
The IBM PC was never meant to be a platform to define the business for decades. It wasn't even meant to define the 80s. But you go with what you have.

Posted by: epobirs at December 20, 2011 02:24 PM (8V8sq)

211 Monty, MS-DOS was QDOS repackaged, which was a clone of CP/M, but CP/M is itself a ripoff of, um, RT/OS-8. As I recall, it's where the "C:" device naming convention, the use of backslashes for command options, and a number of other CP/M weirdnesses come from.

Full disclosure: I once won a copy of OS/2 by knowing that Simula was the first object-oriented language.

Posted by: JonathanG at December 20, 2011 03:00 PM (11H3F)

212 Truly new and groundbreaking ideas are exceedingly rare. Recall what Newton said about seeing farther thanks to standing atop the shoulders of giants. Without the work that came before his, even that work which was wrong but offered some insight, he could have devoted his life to discovering more basic stuff rather than quickly learning what had already been documented and advancing upon that.

The downside is that later people of equal capability have less likelihood to be recognized. Somebody has to be first and everyone else just gets to improve, refine, and extend. Less glorious but that is where the big new ideas become parts of everyday life.

Didn't mean to start out so vituperative, Monty, but the cliche slam on Microsoft gets really old, especially from people who should know better.

Posted by: epobirs at December 20, 2011 04:51 PM (kcfmt)

213 211 Monty, MS-DOS was QDOS repackaged, which was a clone of CP/M, but CP/M is itself a ripoff of, um, RT/OS-8. As I recall, it's where the "C:" device naming convention, the use of backslashes for command options, and a number of other CP/M weirdnesses come from. _________
There is, as far as I know, no operating system called "RT/OS-8".There was RT-11 for PDP-11s and OS/8 for PDP-8s. Of these, CP/M is most similar to OS/8. But it's not really all that similar to OS/8 at all.
DEC operating systems such as RT-11 and OS/8 usually have three (RT-11) or four (OS/ character device names, not just a drive letter.
RT-11 and OS/8 use forward slashes for command options. The operating systems provide services to parse command lines.
CP/M offers no command-line parsing services, so things are a bit more varied. While many programs used forward slashes, many did not. Digital Research programs tended to use square brackets (for example, PIP used the option [Z] to strip the 8th bit off characters as it copied a file).
Bill Gates did his original development work on a PDP-10, so it is not surprising that Microsoft's CP/M programs tended to use a forward slash for options. MS-DOS uses backslashes for directory names due to this heritage; forward slashes were already used by Microsoft for command-line options.

Posted by: Anachronda at December 20, 2011 04:59 PM (NmR1a)

214 buy windows 7 cd keybuy wedding dressCD KeysARMA 2 CD KeyCall of Duty CD KeyCompany of Heroes CD KeyCommand Conquer CD KeyDawn of War 2 CD KeyDead Space CD KeyFallout 3 CD KeyMass Effect 2 CD KeySilent Hunter 5 CD KeyThe Sims 3 CD KeyGTA 4 CD KeyNFS CD KeyTitan Quest CD KeyRUSE CD KeyF1 2010 CD KeyTwo Worlds 2 CD KeyStar Trek Online CD KeySpore CD KeyFar Cry 3 CD KeyDungeons CD KeyDragon Age CD KeyDivinity 2 CD KeyDead Space 2 CD KeyCrysis 2 CD KeyCities XL 2011 CD KeyHomeFront CD KeyShogun 2 Total War CD KeyFable 3 CD KeyPES 2011 CD KeyDuke Nukem Forever CD KeyDungeon Siege 3 CD KeyFEAR 3 CD KeyNBA 2K11 CD KeyRIFT CD KeyRed Faction: Armageddon CD KeyDead Island CD KeyDriver San Francisco CD KeyDeus Ex: Human Revolution CD KeyF1 2011 CD KeyFrom Dust CD KeyRed Orchestra 2 CD KeyTropico 4 CD KeyMight Magic Heroes 6 CD KeyMineCraft CD KeyRage CD KeyDCS A-10C Warthog CD KeyBattlefield 3 CD KeyPES 2012 CD Key

Posted by: aftsnbas3 at December 20, 2011 06:17 PM (uCkng)

215 It's Christmas and it's a very depressing article to read: "Guest Post: The Corruption Of America"
"So please... before you read this issue, which makes several arresting
claims about the future of our country... understand I am only writing
about the facts as I find them today. I am only drawing conclusions
based on the situation as it stands. I am not saying that these
conditions can't improve. Or that they won't improve.:

Posted by: sam at December 20, 2011 08:42 PM (oZfic)

216 There are so much to learn from your post here, Uma, well done.

Posted by: The Lock Artist ePub at December 21, 2011 03:30 AM (gp7TX)

217 air filter,oil filter,water filter,all filter
www.genset-china.com

Posted by: kadin at December 21, 2011 07:13 AM (wOHIa)

218 MS-DOS systems that neededtheir versions of software, like the Tandy 2000 and TI Professional.
LED screen LED panel stepper dumbbell aluminium sheet street light LED light Folder Printingcalendar printing

Posted by: Linda at December 23, 2011 04:11 AM (85iJB)






Processing 0.02, elapsed 0.0591 seconds.
14 queries taking 0.033 seconds, 226 records returned.
Page size 141 kb.
Powered by Minx 0.7 alpha.

MuNuvians
MeeNuvians
Polls! Polls! Polls!
Frequently Asked Questions
The (Almost) Complete Paul Anka Integrity Kick
Top Top Tens
Greatest Hitjobs

The Ace of Spades HQ Sex-for-Money Skankathon
A D&D Guide to the Democratic Candidates
Margaret Cho: Just Not Funny
More Margaret Cho Abuse
Margaret Cho: Still Not Funny
Iraqi Prisoner Claims He Was Raped... By Woman
Wonkette Announces "Morning Zoo" Format
John Kerry's "Plan" Causes Surrender of Moqtada al-Sadr's Militia
World Muslim Leaders Apologize for Nick Berg's Beheading
Michael Moore Goes on Lunchtime Manhattan Death-Spree
Milestone: Oliver Willis Posts 400th "Fake News Article" Referencing Britney Spears
Liberal Economists Rue a "New Decade of Greed"
Artificial Insouciance: Maureen Dowd's Word Processor Revolts Against Her Numbing Imbecility
Intelligence Officials Eye Blogs for Tips
They Done Found Us Out, Cletus: Intrepid Internet Detective Figures Out Our Master Plan
Shock: Josh Marshall Almost Mentions Sarin Discovery in Iraq
Leather-Clad Biker Freaks Terrorize Australian Town
When Clinton Was President, Torture Was Cool
What Wonkette Means When She Explains What Tina Brown Means
Wonkette's Stand-Up Act
Wankette HQ Gay-Rumors Du Jour
Here's What's Bugging Me: Goose and Slider
My Own Micah Wright Style Confession of Dishonesty
Outraged "Conservatives" React to the FMA
An On-Line Impression of Dennis Miller Having Sex with a Kodiak Bear
The Story the Rightwing Media Refuses to Report!
Our Lunch with David "Glengarry Glen Ross" Mamet
The House of Love: Paul Krugman
A Michael Moore Mystery (TM)
The Dowd-O-Matic!
Liberal Consistency and Other Myths
Kepler's Laws of Liberal Media Bias
John Kerry-- The Splunge! Candidate
"Divisive" Politics & "Attacks on Patriotism" (very long)
The Donkey ("The Raven" parody)
News/Chat