1 WTF is a "thought leader"?

2 income inequality?

if everyone is unemployed, everyone has the same income. Is that the equality we are talking about?

3 He's sending his love to you if you are in the middle class but if you happen to progress upward and out of the middle class he will take his love and shove it up your ass.

4 Good question #1,  maybe the opposite of a "thought trailing indicator".

5 "ace of gabes" today?

6 Harvard educated wymyn will be hysterical enraged and empowered.

7 Barry seems somewhat content to bring the Clinton band back together.  Sammy Hagar to Billy's David Lee Roth.

We could do much worse than Larry Summers. 

8 we r in ur hedz
leading ur mindthoughts

9 @5-- dammit, you beat me to it. Oh, well. Back to work.

10 John Galt is my new homeboy.

11 How exactly do you have a middle class without income inequality?

12

Barry seems somewhat content is compelled by his thorough lack of a political Rolodex to bring the Clinton band back together. 

Fixed.

Clinton's 2.0 government-in-exile might, unfortunately, actually manage not to make a total hash of the Lightworker's administration. I was hoping he'd be handing out offices to his fellow amateurs.

13 UGH!

Fellow morons,

I realize this guy has been elevated by frustrated conservatives to some sort of cultural hero status because of the pounding white males have taken from the politically-correct crowd, but as a life-long conservative woman scientist, I'd challenge you to read his remarks in full and think about what he's saying here. Do not jump to the conclusion that just because a bunch of feminists got riled up over his statements, his remarks aren't ludicrous. They are.

To suppose that women are under-represented in the faculty ranks in schools of science and engineering because of their innate weakness in math ignores that these women populate those same schools in the undergraduate, graduate, and postdoctoral ranks, then disappear disproportionately at the faculty ranks.

And to equate the dearth of women in science and engineering, two fields this country can ill-afford to let slip if we are to maintain our global competitiveness, with the paucity of white guys dribbling basketballs is... well, it shows how seriously this great thinker Lightworker admires so much took the topic of his speech.

Trust a misogynist like Obama to pick another one.

------
Remarks at NBER Conference on Diversifying the Science & Engineering Workforce
Lawrence H. Summers
Cambridge, Mass.
January 14, 2005

I'm going to confine myself to addressing one portion of the problem, or of the challenge we're discussing, which is the issue of women's representation in tenured positions in science and engineering at top universities and research institutions, not because that's necessarily the most important problem or the most interesting problem, but because it's the only one of these problems that I've made an effort to think in a very serious way about. The other prefatory comment that I would make is that I am going to, until most of the way through, attempt to adopt an entirely positive, rather than normative approach, and just try to think about and offer some hypotheses as to why we observe what we observe without seeing this through the kind of judgmental tendency that inevitably is connected with all our common goals of equality. It is after all not the case that the role of women in science is the only example of a group that is significantly underrepresented in an important activity and whose underrepresentation contributes to a shortage of role models for others who are considering being in that group. To take a set of diverse examples, the data will, I am confident, reveal that Catholics are substantially underrepresented in investment banking, which is an enormously high-paying profession in our society; that white men are very substantially underrepresented in the National Basketball Association; and that Jews are very substantially underrepresented in farming and in agriculture. These are all phenomena in which one observes underrepresentation, and I think it's important to try to think systematically and clinically about the reasons for underrepresentation.

There are three broad hypotheses about the sources of the very substantial disparities that this conference's papers document and have been documented before with respect to the presence of women in high-end scientific professions. One is what I would call the-I'll explain each of these in a few moments and comment on how important I think they are-the first is what I call the high-powered job hypothesis. The second is what I would call different availability of aptitude at the high end, and the third is what I would call different socialization and patterns of discrimination in a search. And in my own view, their importance probably ranks in exactly the order that I just described.

----
http://www.president.harvard.edu/speeches/2005/nber.html

14 Y-not, quit your yapping and go make us some sammiches.

15 Nothing creates income inequality quite like filling America with tens of millions of illegal immigrants with no skills and who are illiterate in their own language, never mind English. Maybe the Obama people will wrap their heads around that, since it completely eluded the Bushies.

Thing is - the places in the country with the greatest income inequality are the places which vote overwhelmingly Democratic. So I'm not convinced the Dems really care much about this.

16 like Y-not says, both Summers AND the fainting feminists are wrong.  What was especially bone-headed about Summers and the women-can't-do-math thingy was the missing women issue has been discussed, extensively, for years in science circles and among grad school faculty.  It's called the pipeline problem, and for a senior university administrator to be ignorant of it would be like having the head of NASA speculating on the cheese-mining opportunities on the moon.

(full disclosure: I have a physics degree and a math minor and  mammary glands.  I am hoping item #3 will overcome the handicap of items #1 and #2 on my pending moron application.)

17 Sammy Hagar to Billy's David Lee Roth.

Or Sammy Davis to Billy's Sinatra.

18 a strong, vibrant, growing middle class

This is not the disavowal of the pursuit of "middleclassness" I thought I knew.

19 Thank you, Y-not, for the excerpt-- I just remember reading that same passage and thinking that the reaction to his suggestion about "different availability of aptitude" seemed excessive because, although the obvious insult behind that quote roughly equals "women's brains can't handle math and science," it still reads as though Summers was challenging the scientific community to think about what he was suggesting in citing one of three hypotheses.

20 full disclosure: I have a physics degree and a math minor and  mammary glands.

TPIUWP

21

Y-not,

Summers argument was premised on the people in the 3rd/4th standard deviations of ability for math/sciences.  Like it or not, in the main, those are guys.  It's not that women are "weak" in math, they're just not as "strong" as men - at the top-most levels.

A rough corollary can be made with Bridge and Chess.  The top players are guys.  period. 

With regard to bridge, Omar Sharif - bridge expert and actor - made the point that women were, overall, better players than men, but there were no great female players.  

22

as a life-long conservative

So, Y-not, are you a Christian?

Are you really trying to say that women's IQ's don't tend to cluster around the median, and men's don't tend to have more outliers?  Got any cites for that?

Are you really trying to say that in the fields that, dare I say, actually matter, affirmative action hires are the way to go?  How . . . conservative . . . of you.  (Disclaimer:  I was a sociology major.  That is a field that does not matter.)

 

23 It's odd that the women scientists are unaware that women get pretty scarce as you move to the right tail of the bell curve.

24 (full disclosure: I have a physics degree and a math minor and  mammary glands.  I am hoping item #3 will overcome the handicap of items #1 and #2 on my pending moron application.)

That depends. Are there photos?

25 I have a physics degree and a math minor and  mammary glands.

We'll need photographic confirmation of these claims.

26 Heh. Morons think alike.

27 women get pretty scarce as you move to the right tail of the bell curve.

We men also dominate the left tail.  MEN RULE!

28 I rule both ends.

29

Marie Curie offers an illustrative example here:

Madame Curie was a brilliant Nobel Laureate scientist.  Died of radiation poisoning caused by the materials she discovered and which properties she explored in the lab.

Her husband, Nobel Laureate scientist Pierre Currie, was killed crossing the street during a rain storn by a carriage.

So, hard work can kill you, as can bad luck.

Which means that, male or female, we're all screwed. 

30

What, no fat Mikey on the team?

31

When the fuck did "middle class" become the new "awesome"?

I thought middle was , by definition, mediocre?

Oh, i get it- most people are middle class, so they're the easiest to pander idiotically to

Fucking fuck

32
To suppose that women are under-represented in the faculty ranks in schools of science and engineering because of their innate weakness in math...

That's an abominable and unconscionable characterization of his argument. By mischaracterizing his position in this fashion, you are doing women scientists no favors.

33 you want photos of my physics degree?? That's just *sick*.  You people need help.  Any other photographs can be obtained at the not-yet-scheduled-hint-hint Seattle meetup.  Quid pro quo, Clarice morons.  You want pictures?  I want a meetup.

It's odd that the women scientists are unaware that women get pretty scarce as you move to the right tail of the bell curve.

Oh we're aware of  it all right.  No waiting for the restroom at physics conferences, w00t!  What's really odd is this magical gender disparity vanishes, like, gone, in chemistry.  And the kind of research I did was pretty much identical to some that was going on in the chemistry department.  Really, we kept borrowing each other's equipment.  Publishing in the same journals.  The head of the chemistry department was female, and the gender ratio there was close to even.  That's a pretty elastic Bell curve, I'm thinking.  And what Summers did have enough self-preservation not to mention was, black physicists are pretty much non-existent.  Strangely I have never heard anyone trying to claim that the disparity is caused by innate intellectual differences ....

34
It's called the pipeline problem, and for a senior university administrator to be ignorant of it would be like having the head of NASA speculating on the cheese-mining opportunities on the moon.

I think they all know about the pipeline problem. The question is: why is so difficult to fill the pipeline, despite decades of promotional efforts?

My answer to that question differs a bit from Summers, though: I think it's that women are too smart to go into fields that are so demanding and so materially unrewarding.

35 So the Obama filter for administration jobs is that you can't be a gun owner; but a misogynist is OK.  I can understand gun owners were not a strong Obama demographic; but women, esp. well educated women had to have been a core voting bloc.

36

Aaargh!

 

I'm even using tinyurl and my posts are getting rejected!

37 And what Summers did have enough self-preservation not to mention was, black physicists are pretty much non-existent.  Strangely I have never heard anyone trying to claim that the disparity is caused by innate intellectual differences ....

Ok, I call moby on this one.

Perhaps you mean "nobody in my circle of politically correct friends would ever say such a thing". But I assure you that racial differences in IQ are not an unknown topic, and the connection between the two is not open to any serious dispute.

38 Yeah, and a Seattle meetup that was called on more than 2 days notice might get better attended too!  Just sayin'.  Whatever that means.

39 No waiting for the restroom at physics conferences, w00t!  What's really odd is this magical gender disparity vanishes, like, gone, in chemistry.

It's almost as if physics is more dependent of advanced math skills than chemistry, isn't it? No, that can't be it! It's much more plausible to suggest that the physics department is headed by male bigots.

40

Every time I see this Marxist asshole, I wonder how long before we are looking at Hugo?

I am sick.  ODS, I got it and this asshole is not even in the White House.

Wait till we see the "little ones" jumping on their government property beds and wait till we see Michelle's guest lists!

Do you think he will send "The Plane" to Kenya to pick up all his relatives? 

Why not he won.  Won't it be great to see his family eat a real meal.  Guess they'll all stay at the Blair House.  Think they can bring in straw beds for them to sleep on? 

WTF has happened to our country? 

Hope and Change!!

Kemp 

41

"...that the key to a strong economy is a strong, vibrant, growing middle class," Obama said of Summers. "This idea is at the core of my own economic philosophy..."

That's strange.  I could have sworn  that one of the tenets of Trinity United Church of Christ, where Obama attended for 20 years, was married and had his 2 children christened, was to REJECT being middle class. 

42

What do you get when you CROSS a Giraffe and a Mountain CLIMBER?

Nothing.  A MOUNTAIN climber is a SCALAR.

43

"a strong, vibrant, growing middle class"

And he'll grow the middle class by demoting everyone in the highly successful upper class, not by pulling up the economic lower class. Wonderful.

Like the girl in the Benny Hill show once said, "Who do I have to sleep with to get OFF this show!"

 

44 #33

It's a jumble of effects, and separating out the causal factors is difficult.  On average, women seem to be less interested in math, the harder sciences and things like electrical engineering than men. This interest difference is likely hard-wired, given the enormous efforts to get women interested in these fields with poor results.  It's not surprising, really.  Sex difference run deep -- even at very young ages girls like dolls and boys like weapon toys. Biology is a stubborn thing.

Men tend to be better at spatial reasoning than women on average.  (Women have better verbal abilities). There are clear evolutionary bases for these differences.  Men also have a broader, lower IQ distribution curve than women, pushing more men to the extremes of the curves -- both high and low.  For math ability the male curve is a bit to the right of the female curve.   This paper ably summarizes the data and the math. http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/math.htm

As for the point about black physicists., they wouldn't say it because it's unseemly and impolitic.  Racial IQ disparities are a scientific third rail that we appear incapable of discussing rationally or civilly -- see the dispute about "The Bell Curve".  I would note that math and physics departments in this country are dominated by Asians, particularly Chinese.

45
I think it's that women are too smart to go into fields that are so demanding and so materially unrewarding.

...which is a realization that is not confined to women, of course. We're having a tough time recruiting enough of any American kids into the hard science/engineering disciplines. In 2004, more than half of engineering PhD students were foreign-born, and foreign-born professors now constitute more than half of engineering faculties. 45% of physics PhDs are foreign-born.

And while there are roughly even numbers of men and women who are US citizens or permanent residents in graduate school, the ratio of visa holders is 2:1.

These sorts of stats make me believe that one could form a hypothesis that the women-tenured-in-science  problem isn't necessarily a domestic one, and that all the reforms we implement at the K-12 and undergraduate level are not going to be effective.

46 And he'll grow the middle class by demoting everyone in the highly successful upper class

I doubt that, since they are his biggest supporters.

The middle class is the GOP base. The rich and the poor vote Democratic. The wonderful irony is that we constantly see the GOP pandering to the rich and the Dems paying lip service to the middle class. The two party's each have a self image which is at odds with their actual bases.

47 "I've sought leaders who could offer both sound judgment and fresh thinking, both a depth of experience and a wealth of bold, new ideas, and most of all who share my fundamental belief that we cannot have a thriving Wall Street without a thriving Main Street," 

Like, gag me with another ivy league cockholster, fer sure.

48 Looks like we are starting to tie the misogyny in higher education to the decidedly none PC outlooks of some of our recent immigrant cultures, cool more Prop 8 fun.

49

life-long conservative woman scientist,

Let's assume you aren't also concerned, let me take a guess: biology?

To suppose that women are under-represented in the faculty ranks in schools of science and engineering because of their innate weakness in math ignores that these women populate those same schools in the undergraduate, graduate, and postdoctoral ranks, then disappear disproportionately at the faculty ranks.

In my experience, teaching actual math, I've found that the best students in calculus are split evenly between male and female.  But...the ones that pass with C's and low B's are overwhelmingly male.  That's the story.

American students who are not in the most elite schools cannot compete at the Ph.D. level in mathematically-oriented subjects unless they have (a) a very good private education, (b) a lot of drive AND (c) a little bit of insanity.  I cannot think of any mathematician who is under the age of 45 and did not receive a private education.  The amount of crap and the high level of competition to be an internationally-recognized researcher isn't worth it.

You could just as easily work in an easy field like biology or in something really easy like law school, which has no math and no foreign competition.

50 We're having a tough time recruiting enough of any American kids into the hard science/engineering disciplines.

I'd be hard pressed to recommend a career in these fields to any bright American kid. It's semi-official government policy to out source these jobs to places like India  and China, and to insource these jobs to Indian and Chinese H1b's. Smart Americans are looking to get into "protected" fields, such as the law.

51 flenser, chill.  I was pointing out that Summers was quite happy to be un-PC about women, but not about Physicists Of Color, even though the circumstantial evidence was stronger that melanin causes math deficiency by his vapid logic.  Summers is an idiot.

Yeah, Chemistry and Physics are different re: math all right.  I asked the female chemistry grad students doing similar work as me why chemistry and not physics, and they said the math *requirements* entering grad school.  Not that they couldn't learn the math, but that they didn't already have it.  That's why I think the earlier promotional efforts didn't work -- they were applied too late in the educational cycle.  By the time girls saw the "Science is cool" posters they had already skipped the math classes they needed to take.  Look, I don't claim to be Euler or anything.  I was fortunate enough to have some (male) friends in junior high that wanted me to take the honors math class with them, instead of the easy class.  That was when I discovered math was not just boring drills, but *fun*.  If that hadn't happened, I would never have been able to get enough math to major in physics (and lo, my brain and gender would have been the same!).  You don't have to be able to prove Fermat's last theorem to do physics, you just have to have math experience.  That's all.  It's like a language.  Kids will take the easy way out if they don't know any better, what a shock. 

 I also suspect the same mechanism is preventing black students from going for science.  That constant drip-drip-drip of "girls can't do math" and "you're acting white if you like school" does have an effect.  Not on me, because I'm pig-headed stubborn highly opinionated and get a wicked thrill proving people who say I can't do something wrong.  (My dad thought a .45 was "too strong" for me to shoot.  Then I showed him my targets.)

52 misogyny in higher education

Anyone who thinks that there is misogyny in American higher education probably also thinks that the Bush administration planted explosives in the WTC.

53

Anyone who thinks that there is misogyny in American higher education probably also thinks that the Bush administration planted explosives in the WTC.

What's the percentage of women in universities now?  60%?

54 I was pointing out that Summers was quite happy to be un-PC about women, but not about Physicists Of Color, even though the circumstantial evidence was stronger that melanin causes math deficiency by his vapid logic.

What the fuck?

1) The topic was women in higher ed, not blacks.

2) You just said that the logic which says that blacks are not as intelligent was "vapid". This suggests to me that logic is not your strong suit. Which may be why you are not in that physics dept.



 I also suspect the same mechanism is preventing black students from going for science.

Jeebus. If people as irrational as you are able to get science degrees, we badly need to toughen up standards. Scientists are not supposed to start off with their pet theory and then disregard and ignore data which contradicts it.

55 We are talking about science and engineering.

56
I attended a university seminar on women and minorities in engineering last year, and was mystified as to why they were completely unconcerned with the declining enrollment of white males in engineering & science. You'd think that observing a precipitous drop in what was historically your primary talent pool would be a cause for concern or corrective action. Apparently that's not the case. Every time the topic comes up, the only remedy suggested is to put more effort into women and minority recruiting.

From an article in the NYT last summer:

"The concerns about the future of science and engineering stem from a surveys showing that the number of high school and college students interested in science and engineering has been steadily declining through the 1980's and could drop precipitously in the next decade if the population of college age declines as expected by 25 percent.

Moreover, surveys show that the decline has been sharpest among white male students, historically the primary source of the nation's science and engineering students.

Further surveys show a leveling off of interest in science and engineering among women who are college students. Women, who make up more than half of all college students, showed an increasing interest in science and engineering through most of the 1970's."

57
Look, I don't claim to be Euler or anything.

Oh sure, it's always Euler-this and Euler-that. Hey, I had a law!! Did Euler have a law?

Didn't think so.

58 Moreover, surveys show that the decline has been sharpest among white male students, historically the primary source of the nation's science and engineering students.

But remember - the problem is misogyny in higher education.

59

I also wonder how much of the male/female statistics are being skewed by foreign-born PhD candidates.  There are cultural barriers in Asia that don't exist in the US.

We could take only the US-born PhD's in math and physics and computer science and...oh, wait, that's a statistically insignificant sample.

60 Geoff, did those same studies compare the rates of international participation in those disciplines at the same time.  The inherent biases I noticed were: 1) a more structured academic preparation from secondary schools, 2) no endowment bias for the international students (ie: however they paid it was OK, but if you were a mainstream American student not on a competitive fellowship you were a loser), and 3) an aggressive "natural selection" - poor students just didn't come back.

61

NASA and the Apollo program taught us this: 

With caffeine and nicotine, all things are possible ... if you have a penis.

-

62 58 flenser, do you have the study?  I'm going to go out on a limb and say the decrease in white male students was picked up in non-white male students - not the diversity of gender and origin seen in the rest of academia, hence misogyny.

63
Geoff, did those same studies compare the rates of international participation in those disciplines at the same time.

I'm not sure what you're asking. Here's the study mentioned in the NYT article - as far as a quick scan tells me, it's all about the domestic pipeline. Not surprising, because foreign students are politically off limits.. An interesting quote (interesting to me, at least, because it supports one of my points above):

“The transition from undergraduate to graduate school is another big loss point . . . . Students’ perceptions of opportunity are key here. The availability of jobs, income potential, job security, and occupational status all come into play.”

Gotta go, so I can't delve any deeper than that.

64 That is an important quote, the little letters behind you name from an American University have a much higher relative worth for the international student.  I would hire someone with a hard science masters degree (I've been successful with physic, ee, and astronomy hires), long before I would hire a computer science PhD (all other things being equal).

65 not the diversity of gender and origin seen in the rest of academia, hence misogyny

Is that "female logic"? Some of the women on this thread think and speak in exactly the same fashion as the left. Your "hence" does not logically follow.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the decrease in white male students was picked up in non-white male students

Some of it is. And  I notice that you are not attaching any pejorative labels to that happening. In any case some of it is women of different races replacing men.

As many blacks have pointed out, the biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action have been middle class white women.

66 as a civil engineer, I'd say teh wymyns are intimidated by the natural chick magnets most guy engineers are


but I'd be lying

67 That was the interesting thing about foreign women grad students, actually.  Most European women went through their split academic/occupational system (if you wanted to go to college, you took math, end of discussion).  They didn't get why it was such a big deal in the US. And the Chinese women -- well, all of the Chinese students were Extremely Motivated to get out and study in the US, and the women didn't have any trouble with math either.  It would be interesting to do a more formal study.

Gauss, baby, you have *units*.  You don't have to prove anything to Euler.  He's nothing to me, really!

68 21
Y-not,

Summers argument was premised on the people in the 3rd/4th standard deviations of ability for math/sciences. Like it or not, in the main, those are guys. It's not that women are "weak" in math, they're just not as "strong" as men - at the top-most levels.

In order to get to the assistant professor level in science or engineering the world of test scores is a distant memory.

I am not arguing about the relative math skills of men versus women. I'm saying it is not relevant to the drop off in women at the faculty ranks. (Nor am I asserting that the drop off is solely due to #3, although I disagree with the ranking he assigned the three factors.)


Faculty jobs in science and engineering are doled out to the candidates with the best research credentials -- publications and discoveries -- augmented by things like recommendation letters, job talks, and other factors (which in my experience on search committees can include regional considerations -- midwest likes to hire from the coasts -- and race; I personally have never seen gender used as a plus in assistant professor searches, but I have seen it at department chair, dean, and president levels).

Since a candidate for a junior faculty position forms his/her research reputation as a postdoc, it is worthwhile to ask if there is a glut of unqualified female postdocs in science and engineering. I believe the answer is "no" -- there is absolutely no institutional pressure on research faculty to hire women (or minorities) to work as postdocs in their labs. Faculty need competent postdocs to conduct the research in their labs so that they will be able to keep their labs funded -- they aren't going to hire ones with inferior skills just because of gender.

Once in the tenure-track faculty ranks, promotion is based on research, teaching, and service, in that order. Research is judged by papers, grants, and reputation... and, interestingly, those three criteria rely pretty darned heavily on communication skills, particularly writing skills. I've sat on grant review panels where we dinged proposals submitted by brilliant mathematical minds because the scientists' proposals and papers were poorly written.

Whether or not a scientist scored a 790 or a 660 on the Quant section of the GREs is not an issue as soon as she is accepted into grad school.

69 http://tinyurl.com/yxgur6

That's all I know about women's aptitude for science.

70 Let's assume you aren't also concerned, let me take a guess: biology?

Biophysics. Are Fourier-Bessel inversions macho enough for you?

Conservative creds: first campaign I worked was '72 Nixon.

C'mon, morons (as in AoS posters, not as an insult), you are so defensive. You are focusing on who is 'speaking' in this thread rather than what we are saying.

71 14 Y-not, quit your yapping and go make us some sammiches.

Oh, polynikes, I cook much better than that, my friend.

And I iron.

72 Flenser, we are discussing the inattention to the issue and misogynist comments made by Summer regarding participation by women in science and engineering disciplines, particularly those that are math "heavy."  Without spending much more time on this, my hypothesis, based on my observations and quick reading of the links above is: 

The skewed M/F participation ratios in science and engineering are being influenced by the increased participation of international students and professors (the "pipeline") who come from cultures with less opportunity for women, not Dr Summer's inherent weakness for math in the female brain concepts.

If Summers was a conservative, The Citadel or Regents University couldn't touch him for a summer workshop - he would be a pariah. How Obama can get away with it is the mystery?

73 It's called the pipeline problem, and for a senior university administrator to be ignorant of it would be like having the head of NASA speculating on the cheese-mining opportunities on the moon.

bad cat robot,
That's what struck me as well. I remember at the time being very suspicious about the whole thing -- assuming the feminists were riled up over nothing -- but when I read what he said it just seemed irresponsible for the President of Harvard to use a really specious argument (about math ability) as an excuse for not doing what he could about #1 and #3, which is how it struck me.
Maybe he'd have arrived at a different conclusion if he were a natural scientist instead of an economist.
Cheers.

74 So, Y-not, are you a Christian?

Are you really trying to say that women's IQ's don't tend to cluster around the median, and men's don't tend to have more outliers? Got any cites for that?

Are you really trying to say that in the fields that, dare I say, actually matter, affirmative action hires are the way to go? How . . . conservative . . . of you. (Disclaimer: I was a sociology major. That is a field that does not matter.)

Wow - I really touched a nerve.

No, I'm saying that test scores do not matter once you get into grad school. See post above.

No, I didn't advocate affirmative action and I don't support it.

Sorry to hear about your degree. (Is that the appropriate response to that non sequitur?)

75 A thought leader for the Thought Police?

76 So, Y-not, are you a Christian?

Roman Catholic. I think that means I H8 gays in addition to drinking kittten blood.

77 Flenser, we are discussing the inattention to the issue and misogynist comments made by Summer

You are the one asserting that the comments were misogynistic, and that the entire America higher ed system is also. And I'm telling you that you are mistaken at best.

Dr Summer's inherent weakness for math in the female brain concepts.

The way you women scientists dismiss the science on this topic is not impressing on me the belief that we badly need more women scientists. The math in the female brain concept is solidly scientifically established, as is the connection between race and IQ.

78 I'm agnostic.  I'd hate everybody but it's too much effort. 

79 Moreover, surveys show that the decline has been sharpest among white male students, historically the primary source of the nation's science and engineering students.

But remember - the problem is misogyny in higher education.

I don't think anyone on this thread is saying that. However, since women do study science and engineering (taking up slots that guys could have used, I suppose), it is a problem if they drop out of these fields as they advance.

80 If Summers was a conservative, The Citadel or Regents University couldn't touch him for a summer workshop - he would be a pariah.

No doubt. So why are alleged conservatives aping the liberal mindset, even praising it?

81 I don't think anyone on this thread is saying that.

Perhaps you should read the thread then. Start with comment #48.

82 The math in the female brain concept is solidly scientifically established, as is the connection between race and IQ.

In academe, at least, raw math ability (particularly whether or not you are in the top 1% or top 5% in terms of math skills) is not a major determinant in promotion and tenure.

That's the point.

Summers' argument about math skills may make sense when it comes to the choices high school students or college students make (in the classes they take and majors they pursue), but it does not explain why women who have demonstrated themselves to be competent in math leave science and engineering in disproportionate numbers.

83

Y-not,

Thanks for the info on the process for selection to faculty posts..

and Summers was being very specific in his remarks regarding the top-flight postings, rather than the more general "science/engineering" programs.  Summers wasn't talking about Penn State's Physics department.  You're making a more general argument than Summers was - and one Summers himself would not deny.  He didn't say "chicks can't do math" -

We seem to be talking a bit past each other here.  While the test scores may not matter after you get into grad school, they still reflect absolute ability. The higher the score, the higher the ability.  

84 77, 80, 81 are me.

85

So, Y-not, are you a Christian?

Roman Catholic. I think that means I H8 gays in addition to drinking kittten blood.

---------------------------------------

I think that poster was implying that you may be an axel turfer. Pretending to be a concerned Christian conservative.

 

86 66 as a civil engineer, I'd say teh wymyns are intimidated by the natural chick magnets most guy engineers are

Frank G -
Yeah, they're hawt!
Actually, I'd say engineers are better catches than physicists... at least they can fix things! Physicists learn by breaking things. (My husband told me that!)

;-)

87 polynikes -
Yeah, I caught that.
It's such a drag having to roll out one's "creds" because of the astroturfers, but I unnerstand.

88 Uncle Sam,

First, I'm not a women.  Second, my resume would have me flayed alive at a NOW convention (if I was low on ammo and drunk).

Third:  The following statement by Summer (ex cathedra, as you will), The second is what I would call different availability of aptitude at the high end - is a misogynist statement.  The top end of the academic and research ladder is not the place to apply generic aptitude surveys - jobs are not awarded on a strict performance or ability score basis.  They are awarded on a complex basis of aptitude, performance, relationships, luck, etc.  The bias should not exist.

I am certainly not calling for another affirmative action solution, but people of Summer's position should be focusing their attention on the problem - the bottom end of the pipeline:  Why are American students both unprepared for and lack a desire for the science and engineering disciplines?  The poor participation ratio is a leading indicator of a larger problem.

89 In academe, at least, raw math ability (particularly whether or not you are in the top 1% or top 5% in terms of math skills) is not a major determinant in promotion and tenure.

Why do I get the impression that you think this is a good thing? Nothing you are saying here is any different from the "arguments" made by any other self proclaimed oppressed minority. Having tilted the playing field so that women make up the majority of college grads I suppose it almost makes sense to suggest that its bigotry if they don't also make the majority in every field where a degree is required.

90 Why do I get the impression that you think this is a good thing?

Why do I get the impression that nothing I say will convince you?

91 "The following statement by Summer (ex cathedra, as you will), The second is what I would call different availability of aptitude at the high end - is a misogynist statement."

Now, you fucking idiot, it is not. There is nothing remotely misogynistic about that statement.

The top end of the academic and research ladder is not the place to apply generic aptitude surveys

Why not? In theory they are applied at every other stage of college life. This is supposedly a meritocracy, yes?



I am certainly not calling for another affirmative action solution

If it walks, talks, squawks, and shits like a waterfowl, than that's what I'm going to call it. You are most certainly calling for exactly that.

92 Why do I get the impression that nothing I say will convince you?

Why do I get the impression that nothing I say will convince you?

We have an entire generation of women in this country who have been brought up to believe that only "misogyny" stands between them and getting whatever they want.

93 70 Let's assume you aren't also concerned, let me take a guess: biology?

Biophysics. Are Fourier-Bessel inversions macho enough for you?

No.  And I knew it was bio-something.  I am starting to think that "bio" is increasingly becoming a prefix meaning "wussy".

"Mathematics": You use the word but I do not think it means what you think it means.  Mathematics is not crank-turning (pardon the phallicentrism).  Unless you proved something about Fourier inversions, I'm not so impressed that you can use them.  Kinda like the difference between an electrician and an electrical engineer.

Conservative creds: first campaign I worked was '72 Nixon.

Damning with faint praise.  Nixon wasn't a conservative and the alternative was McGovern.  '76 Reagan would have been impressive.

'Course, I wasn't born in '72.  Don't know what it was like in the days before 55% of college graduates were women.

94 Flenser, I want to send the chick who got that promotion you "deserved" some flowers, does she like poseys, edelweiss, ...?

This is supposedly a meritocracy, yes?  NO.  Your living in a diverse, capitalist, representative republic with a few dying embers of federalism. 

Take what you can get, and don't whine about what you don't have.  Somehow it worse when a man whines (assuming you are a man) - and that is a misogynist statement.

95

Bah, for real equality I want more wymyn plumbers.

Fuckin' school jocks.

Maybe some wimminfolks as construction workers?  or you know doing all the shitty jobs that low skilled menfolks tend to do.

You know, in the name of equality.

96 I can do plumbing.  And electrical work, shingling, ditchdigging, plaster work, reglazing and repairing wood frame windows, mucking out barns, and wood floor refinishing.  NOW GET ME A SAMMICH!  (In the name of equality. Also I can't cook worth a damn.)

flenser is arguing with the voices in his head.   Let's simplify. 

-post about Obama naming Summers to some economic dohicky
-I comment that Summers is an idiot, give examples.  I note that hyperventilating super-feminists are also idiots.  Support assertions by stating creds (female, physics and math skills).
-suddenly discover I am actually a moby and a hyperventilationg super-feminist who wants everything handed to me on a silver platter, preferably over flenser's still-bleeding corpse.  (I may be exaggerating for effect here.)

For the record, I think affirmative action (gender or race) is counterproductive and should be scrapped.  All I want is what the Aussies call "a fair go."  And if I think someone has their facts wrong or is using poor logic in saying women shouldn't even try to attempt equality because their brains can't handle math, I will call them on it.  Cope.  I will stomp on statements like that because they were used to keep them completely out of math and science courses before.  If the science of the inferior female brain is so completely established and correct (hey, that sounds like the shut up and believe arguments for Global Warming!) what do you have to worry about?  If I, a woman, enjoy math and science why shouldn't I point out where improvements could be made so other women can enjoy it too?  I got lucky and had supportive friends when it mattered most.  I'm thinking of girls who might be missing out -- and who would like math and science if they tried them.

97
I guess I don't understand Y-not's position here. Summers said that there was a difference in the standard deviations of the abilities of men and women in math and science. The protestations that math ability doesn't directly affect women's success in science is irrelevant: his claim is that the standard deviation differs for the sciences as well. And in any case, math ability is certainly a very strong indicator for success in the sciences.

The questions, therefore, are: 1) is it true that there is a difference in the standard deviations? and 2) is this a legitimate area of scientific inquiry? The latter is certainly true, and the former comes down to arguments about the virtues and faults of testing and evaluation methods.

I'd be surprised if the standard deviations were the same, when so many other differences exist.

but it does not explain why women who have demonstrated themselves to be competent in math leave science and engineering in disproportionate numbers.

Maybe you should go back and reread your excerpt. He had two other explanations as well. And his talk was not designed to rehash the standard explanations - he was asked to be thought-provoking.

I don't know why you feel the need to distort his points and his intent in his speech, but your comments thus far cast an awful light on your objectivity and logical faculties. Maybe you should start again, this time addressing what he actually said and meant.

Whether or not a scientist scored a 790 or a 660 on the Quant section of the GREs is not an issue as soon as she is accepted into grad school.

This makes no sense. Nobody correlates scientific or math achievement against the GRE generals. The math is trivial, and if you're a sci/math type and score less than 750, you should give it up. And of course once you're admitted, nobody asks what you got, but that doesn't mean that those scores aren't an indicator for future performance. Unless you've got some evidence to the contrary.

98 'Thought Leader' is the creepiest new phrase I've heard in a long time. It sounds like a rank in a re-education camp.

99
but that doesn't mean that those scores aren't an indicator for future performance.

...where by "those scores" I mean the subject tests, or, in high school, the achievement tests.

100
I comment that Summers is an idiot, give examples.

And that's where you lost me. I don't think that any fair reading of his speech, the context, and the subsequent explanations would lead one to your conclusion. And your examples involved atrocious distortions of what he said ("women can't do math?" WTF?).

And if I think someone has their facts wrong or is using poor logic in saying women shouldn't even try to attempt equality because their brains can't handle math, I will call them on it

Strawman. "brains can't handle math?" Offensively huge strawman. And I'm missing the part where you showed that the facts were wrong.

If I, a woman, enjoy math and science why shouldn't I point out where improvements could be made so other women can enjoy it too?

That's great, but anecdotal. We're talking about large-scale trends, and the entire statistical distribution, not an outlier like you.

As you may be able to tell, it really steams me when people continue to pillory Summers for something he never said. Go forth and promote the ascension of women in academia - it's a worthy cause, though I believe we have far bigger fish to fry. But don't drag Summers through the mud without truly addressing what he said.

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