1 Rubin's lie was despicable.

What's funny, on the other hand, is how Bush made a speech at the Israeli Knesset without name denouncing Jimmy Carter's policy of appeasement -- you know, he recently travelled to the middle east against the wishes of the State Department, and so was on George Bush's mind -- and what does Barack Obama do?

Well, naturally they all assume Bush was was talking about Obama and begin denouncing him for the supposed attack on Obama. What rubes.

[ LINK ]

2 Maybe at some point, idiot Republicans will figure out that the media is going to attack and distort anything they say, so they might as well speak the truth.

3 >>We should really start keeping track of the lengths the media is going to protect the Chosen One.

Er, you are. Daily. Nobody cares accept the converted.

It's just a shame that the Republicans are running such a bad candidate against this turd.

4 Rubin got his message out on a Friday and any corrections/elaborations, assuming they do come, will come out on a Saturday when nobody will notice.  He did his job as far as he's concerned.

5

Like I said in the previous thread, Bush's policies have been just as disgraceful as what Obama is proposing.

This adminsitration has already been dealing with Iran, Syria, NK as policy.

I don't see how the right/conservatives can waste so much time discussing a potential candiate's views, while remaining silent about the sitting president's disasterous appeasing surrender to these people as they murder Aericans by the thousands and aquire nuclear weapons.

6 I don't see how the right/conservatives can waste so much time discussing a potential candiate's views, while remaining silent about the sitting president's disasterous appeasing surrender to these people as they murder Aericans by the thousands and aquire nuclear weapons.

Maybe because it's a waste of time to bitch about somebody who's going to be out of office in about eight months.

7

Maybe because it's a waste of time to bitch about somebody who's going to be out of office in about eight months.

Plus, the narrative is already set.  If Bush had tried at all to communicate a broad strategy, the narrative might well be different.  But hindsight isn't terribly useful, so you accept the current situation and try to move forward.

Unfortunately, the current situation is a huge steaming pile of shit, which makes looking back even more tempting.  It's still not worthwhile, though.  We have to move forward as best we can.  The biggest problem for conservatives (and lonely libertarians like moi) is trying to agree on how to make the best of the current situation.

8 Hermit,

I are one too! But, I still consider my party bat-shit crazy...sigh.

9

Yeah, the Libertarian party was a lot easier for me to stomach when none of the major parties took our foreign policy seriously back in the 90's.  Looks like they're going to get more and more palatable as we go from here on out, though.  Sigh.

10 >>I don't see how the right/conservatives can waste so much time discussing a potential candiate's views, while remaining silent about the sitting president's disasterous appeasing surrender to these people as they murder Aericans by the thousands and aquire nuclear weapons.

What, exactly, would you have Bush do? Why is his policy disastrous? How is he surrendering or appeasing anyone?

11 There is nothing in McCain's response that is inconsistent with Bush's response at the time: if Hamas demonstrates goodwill and becomes peaceable, then we can talk....

...and a new verb is born: rubinize.

To rubinize a statement is to omit a clarifying follow-up response in order to smear someone.

12 >>If Bush had tried at all to communicate a broad strategy, the narrative might well be different.

But Bush did. Remember the "we have no compelling interests in a status quo inimical to the US" speech? Or how he met with Natan Sharansky to discuss the principles to be found within his books? Or the stuff about how Democracy was the surest way to peace and the development of a true Middle Eastern middle class with a stake in the nations they lived in?

Of course not. 

13

V the K:

Bush (and the conservatives) still have 8 months to start acting like Americans.

 

Hermit:

I have no idea what you're talking about What the heck is a "narrative"?

Look, it is absolutely essential that the Iranian regime be destroyed immediately. Any candidate who disagrees should be criticized. Any sitting president who fails to act should be criticized. And anyone who claims to value America (e.g. the Conservatives) and yet remains silent should be criticized.

14 Jackstraw,

I really do sympathize with your view. I supported Bush and still do like him as an individual...he has been strong on the GWOT. That said, the man has pulled the party way too far to the left.

Conservatives really are not very compassionate when it gets framed in a socialist context. We still believe in individual freedom to sink or fail according to your abilities.

15 Joe, it appears to me that Bush expended as much political capital as could to continue fighting the GWoT to this point. Hell, he even spent capital that wasn't his and now the GOP is going to suck the pipe come 09.

He tried, but Iran just ain't gonna get done. Not by us, anyway. Israel might, with a good umbrella provided by us. Take a look at known/reported arms deals between us and the Israelis, esp. re: bunker busters, then look at the timing of Bush's visits to that part of the world, where he went, etc.

Maybe you'll feel better, maybe not.

16 We should really start keeping track of the lengths the media is going to protect the Chosen One.

I love making lists.

I'm on it!

17 Jack,

Sorry, I think I meant to include one positive in that response but my mood is kinda dark now. Think I will give myself a time-out from the political process.

18

When Bush denounced loser appeasers while visiting Israel, the White House press secretary should not have played into the quick sand of appeasing the message's response at home.

Though Bush scored some home runs with the GOP base early in office, he has since spent his years of domestic effort being Mr. Nice Guy, leaving everyone dissatisfied. (Can't please everyone all of the time syndrome.) Considering that he will NEVER get high ratings from the liberals, one would wonder what's keeping Bush from playing consistently now to the end on the conservative side.

If ever McCain should absorb a lesson learned to date by himself and Bush, even if you have the official D- by your title as Lieberman had, if you have a shred of decency it doesn't pay to play liberal games by liberal rules against liberal players. Play your own game with your own strengths. Tell it like it is and stick to your guns, family and faith. (Why denounce faith just because not everyone has it? If you have it, let your light so shine. No forcing the issue on others, and no taking flack from others, either.) Savage puts it: Borders, Language, and Culture.

 

19 Yep, start a running list of this crap . It never gets disseminated as it should. 

20 Honqi-

I'm not a conservative. Hell, I'm not even a party guy. I just interpret the facts as I see 'em.

Empirically, Bush has been the best President we have had dealing with the middle east since Jefferson. Yea, that includes Reagan. He wasn't perfect, the place is a snake pit and I'm not sure Jesus could fix it in 8 years if he had deal with Congress and an uneducated American electorate. But he took action and started the ball moving the right way and here's a bet, now that it is moving, not Obama or even Kucinich is going to be able to stop it.

History is going to be a lot kinder to Bush than the MSM.

21

This making a list reminds me of the pain chart on the hospital wall.

The nurse comes in and points to the cartoon faces.

On a scale of 1-10 which one is yours right now?

It was bad when the answer was negative 5.

22

Jack Straw:

What, exactly, would you have Bush do? Why is his policy disastrous? How is he surrendering or appeasing anyone?

- Total failure to act in response to overt _acts of war_ against the US by Iran, including the providing weapons and training that have killed and maimed thousands of Americans, not to mention three decades of terrorist attacks that have killed hundreds of Americans (or their persuit of a nuke program).  Instead, negotiating and offering deals

- Total failure to act against acts of war by Syria (sending foreign fighters into Iraq)

- Giving hundreds of millions of dollars in aid and weapons to murderous terrorist arafat.

- Failure to pursue AQ into Pakistan, in respect of Pakistan's "sovreignty" - notwistanding that they are harboring terrorists.

- Allowing the Afghanis to institute a theocratic state.

- And today providing uranium to the saudis

What I would have him o is destroy the Iranian regime. If he doenst think he has the authority to do it, then he should at least advocate it and try to get congress to authorise it.

Don't you think Iran should be attacked? If so, why aren't you advocating it?

23 reb, polly, and colonel klurtz want me to STFU. Joe wants me to complain more. There has never been a better time not to give a damn.

24 reb, polly, and colonel klurtz

Never heard of 'em.

25 He's Mr. Christiane Amanpour. Next question?

26 >>History is going to be a lot kinder to Bush than the MSM.

Think so?
What if - just supposin' here - we do get in one of the Socialist candidates as President and - remember, just supposin' here - the beginning of the end starts just as we fear it might? You know, going whole hog towards Socialist-lite or -heavy, whatever.

And with the Democrat thirst for power comes the ironic ending of that power internationally, since socialist nations almost always decline.

At that remove, Bush looks like the one who started the decline, or anyway thats how they'd write it and you know who does the teaching now. Certainly they'd never blame themselves. They honestly think they're the Rebels and we're the Empire, nuts as that sounds.

27 >>Jack,

>>Sorry,

Why? You didn't say anything worth apologizing for. In any case, no foul. Drink on. I am.

Joe-

Nice list. But not at all what I asked.

What do you want Bush to do? Exactly? Bear in mind we live in a representative democracy with a volunteer military. Now, what exactly do you want him to do? Launch a missile attack against Iran? Nuke N. Korea? Send the 7th fleet to form a naval blockade against Syria?

What?

I share your frustration with the shits that attack us but the retaliation has to be both possible, that's kind of important, and worth the blow back. Suggest a response to the ills you see that is both.

28

Evil Midnight Bomber:

15 Joe, it appears to me that Bush expended as much political capital as could to continue fighting the GWoT to this point. Hell, he even spent capital that wasn't his and now the GOP is going to suck the pipe come 09.

So you're saying he should abdicate his duties in the face of war, and throw the US under the proverbial bus, just so the Republicans can win?

Don't you value this country? and freedom? How are you any less of a liberal than Obama?

He tried, but Iran just ain't gonna get done.

Tried?!?!? Bush has NEVER even attempted, never even advocated, attacking Iran.

29

JackStraw, "History is going to be a lot kinder to Bush than the MSM."

YES. I think you've made a great point about Bush. I hope you're right. At least it doesn't take a saint to recognize the MSM as whitened sepulchres, scribes, pharasees, and vipers.

They say history is written by the victors. So time will tell how many are willing to forego the ease of popular appeasement, and counter exert the effort to maintain what's decent. One thing is absolutely certain. Those people with a sense of decency WILL vote regardless of the MSM barrage and ugly screams from Leftists all around. Those screams do not weaken the will of decency, but refine its determination. "Fear not!" were always the first words from the angels.

30 These are a few of my favorite Things Which Indicate the US is absolutely awash in morons:

[1] 58% of American adults say they DON'T "believe" in the Theory of Evolution.

[2] 74% of American adults claim they DO "believe" in the existence of a universal super-being who sends human beings on the Planet Earth highly nuanced coded messages in a book the earliest writing parts of which were first written between 3000 [the Old Testament] & 150 [Book of Mormon] years ago.

[3] 100% of right wing bloggers believe the American establishment media is left wing.

Tools.

31

Yeah, I never expected to see V the K get attacked from the right.  Joe, your expectations are simply unrealistic.  In theory, I agree with you .. in practice, not happening.

My point above, obviously poorly expressed, was that Bush could have articulated his strategery much better.   Deal with Afghanistan, excellent.  Iraq next, great.  Our military is so far ahead of the rest of the world, that given the will, we'll get it done.  But, er ... afterwards ... er .... gee.

This is not to take away from JackStraw's points about what is possible.  My point is that Bush never said squat about longer term goals.  I cringed when he did the 'Mission Accomplished' thing as it was so  completely unrealistic and just fodder for his opponents.  Meanwhile Condi (and Powell before her) is running around making nice with assholes.

Ok, I'm rambling tonight ... Friday, etc etc ... but from the outside, it sure looks like Bush had zero plan to deal with the ME after the 'Depose Sadaam' phase.  If he did, he sure didn't manage to articulate it.

32

Jack (27):

What do you want Bush to do? Exactly? Bear in mind we live in a

Iran has been waging war against us for 30 years. It is reckless and immoral for anyone not to recogize it, and not to try to act on it.

At the very least he has to stop the disasterous policies listed above and _publicly advocate_ going to war against Iran, and he has to ask Congress to declare war. And when they don't he has to hound, badger, shame and ridicule them into it.

(there's also the issue if Congress doesn't declare war, wat are the president's powers. I'm not a constitutioanl expert, but I would say he should use as much force as he's legally allowd to. Yes, its a democracy, but a periodic democracy, i.e. the peoples will is expressed every 4 years, not in real time. And anyway the government's powers and responsibilities are prescribed in the constttion, not by vote.)

 

33 check out the Lou Dobbs update over at hotair.  wow....Lou drops the hammer on Rubin

34 DDog -
Out of curiosity, do you hold any opinions you would hesitate to give voice to in public?

35

The first line of my comment above (32) is a quote of Jack, should have been italicized.

36 Lou Dobbs also put this Obamatron hack in his place by (shock) quoting other things in the interview that provided that oh-so-lacking quality of all Democrat propaganda - Part of the FULL transcript of the remarks.

37

I want to make a general comment: A lot of people here seem to be suggesting that if a policy isnt practical politically (i.e. there is no chance to have congress or the public approve), then it shouldn't be advocated.

So for example if congress or the public would never approve of war against Iran, then Bush (or the Republicans shouldn't even mention it).

This is completely rediculous - and unprincipled - and the reason why the republicans are losing.

38 >>Iran has been waging war against us for 30 years.

Agreed, I have been saying so for years. Why is this Bush II's fault anymore than it was Carters, Reagans or Clintons? All of them had a much better opportunity to fight back, why would you blame the first President who actually publicly acknowledged the threat?

>>It is reckless and immoral for anyone not to recogize it, and not to try to act on it.

As I noted, you are flat wrong about Bush not acknowledging the threat. Now, again, what do you want him to do about it?

Beat in mind, he isn't an action figure and this is real life with real consequences and we are fighting a real war in the country next door and we don't have a military big enough to attack Iran right now, now, what do you want him to do?

39 reb, polly, and colonel klurtz want me to STFU.

Stop trying to make yourself the martyr, Broken Record. I would just like to see you address issues honestly like Drew has done with this post (including the earlier version of the subject).

Good on you, Drew.

40

Jack (3

1. See my earlier comments about the mechanics of what he should do.

2. With regard to the ongoing war in Iraq limiting our abilities to attack Iran:  the war in Iraq makes it _imperative_ that we attack Iran. Its the only way to win in _Iraq_. In fact, that's yet another failing on Bush, to attempt fighting an insurgency without fighting its source of weapons and training.

3. Carter, Reagan, Bush I, and Clinton are equally as guilty, since they sat through acts of war such as: Tehran hostages and bombings of the marine barracks and embassies in Beirut, Kenya, Tanzania, plus numerous other targets throught the 1980s and 90s. I have been blaming them all for years.

4. I have no idea whether Bush recognizes the danger or values freedom he says he does, but thats no indication because he sure doenst act on it.

41 >>A lot of people here seem to be suggesting that if a policy isnt practical politically (i.e. there is no chance to have congress or the public approve), then it shouldn't be advocated.

Advocate anything you like. Nobody is under compulsion to agree. We can argue and hopefully respect each other's arguments or reasoning.

For instance, I agree with you that Iran should be taken out, and ruthlessly. I don't know that its possible in the way that I believe you mean it should be done.

But a lot of things are done and, I believe, probably are being done behind the scenes.

42 Joe,

How do you propose we attack Iran? Just kinda of curious? Not totally against it but not for it either with our current force structure.

What is your suggestion?

43 >>Jack (3

>>1. See my earlier comments about the mechanics of what he should do.

I did. They are absurd and outside the bounds of Presidential prerogative. Presidents do not have the unilateral right to invade countries (see, Iraq, Bush).

Try again.

44 Eh, the best we can hope for before W is out are some targeted hits on the training bases and some "work accidents" at some of the Nuke facilities. And maybe a good old fashioned naval standoff.

45 Runnin,

Well, what do you suggest? Show me that in-depth knowledge of the military.

46 Oh, you want a serious conversation now? No, I doubt it. I bet you just want a new avenue to present your newest juvenile snark. Prove me wrong and I'll take you seriously in the future.

47 This was your comment, if you have nothing then no problem. Many people say things without really thinking about how to accomplish it, expected.

48

I thought McCains response was thoughtful, eloquent, intelligent, and reasonable

Im voting for him

 

49 A naval blockade/bombardment of Iran's [very few] refineries would cripple their strategic oil production, believe it or not. But it does little or nothing about the nuke facilities and might even give them a better rationale for having them in the world's eyes. That, and we'd lose a couple boats.

50

Jack ( 43 )

In 32 I said that he should advocate war and ask congress to declare war. How is that absurd and outside his perrogative? I also said absent a Congrssional declaration, he should use what he is legally allowed to use. I never said he should or could act outside his powers.

Its true he might not be able get authourity to carry strikes against Iran, but at least he should be _trying_ to get authority - instead of offering deals!

Also, (and in answer to Honqi 42 ), I'm not advocating an invasion. The Iraninan regime and military (navy, air force, major installations) can be destroyed by air.

Also, to repeat what I said earlier, Iran has to be attacked to win in _Iraq_. It is pointless to fight an insurgency without going after its source.

51

How do you propose we attack Iran?

Well, I'm no expert, but I would use bombs, missiles and other shit like that.  Aimed at military targets.  And nuke plants.

52 >>History is going to be a lot kinder to Bush than the MSM.

>>Think so?
What if - just supposin' here - we do get in one of the Socialist candidates as President and - remember, just supposin' here - the beginning of the end starts just as we fear it might? You know, going whole hog towards Socialist-lite or -heavy, whatever.

Good Christ, some of you are dark.

Let's suppose something else. Not every kid who was born after 1970, present company, is not a fucking moron. Every now and then, some of them put down a game controller and read a book. Gosh, some of them are fighting on our behalf right now.

Yea, I believe.

53 You can't win a war without boots on the ground and General Petraeus is fighting tooth and nail to maintain what he has in country.

54 War from the air alone has never proven to be a totally effective measure. It may feel good to bomb stuff from the air but it still pulls assets out of Iraq and Afghanistan. After that bombing is done, you need guys in uniform to move in, where do they come from?

55 >>Iran has to be attacked to win in _Iraq_. It is pointless to fight an insurgency without going after its source.

We could also remove some of the useless ROE and start actually, you know, killin' terrorists and puttin' heads on spikes and stuff. Maybe advertise we've got pig's blood in our bullets.

Nah, forget it...

56 >> Good Christ, some of you are dark.

I have my moments....

57

That Rubin character looks like a real prick

I can see him asking those questions for use in later campaigns -he looks like that kind of a prick

Plus hes married to the worlds manliest and ugliest warpig, so I suspect he enjoys a nice snack of balls-on-the-chin

58 Honqi -
IF the objective is only to cripple/deny nukes, then there is less need to have boots on the ground. It would be solely punitive.

59

Honqi:

54 War from the air alone has never proven to be a totally effective measure.

Japan, 1945.

 

 

60 >>Its true he might not be able get authourity to carry strikes against Iran, but at least he should be _trying_ to get authority - instead of offering deals!

What deals?

Bush duly noted after 9/11 that Iran was part of an axis of evil. He was excoriated by both the press and the congress and got little if any support by his own party. Who and when did you want him to try and get support from?

Bush turned Iran over to the Security Council of the UN for their repeated violation of international law for trying to develop nuclear weapons. He did this because his own FUCKING REPUBLICAN PARTY DID SHIT TO SUPPORT HIM AFTER HE WENT TO IRAQ AND YOU HAVE THE FUCKING BALLS TO SAY HE SHOULD HAVE DONE MORE YOUR FUCKING DUMB FUCK BALL WASHING IDIOT???? DO YOU HAVE ANY FUCKING IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT OR AM I WASTING MY TIME TIME LISTENING TO SHIT FROM A TEENAGER WHO'S ZITS ARE BIGGER THAN HIS NUTS WHICH ARE CLEARLY BIGGER THAN HIS BRAINS?

Sorry, did you say something?

61 Ah, see now THATS the kind of respectful disagreement I was talking about.

62

I agree with EMBWBM ( 58 ).

Also, as a deterrent to any future terrorism or support for terrorists.

63 Joe,

Are you really suggesting we use nukes? Don't think there would be a lot of support for that. You may have suggested a draft which would have been a tad more logical but still...no support.

64 Evil,

How well did those punitive strikes on Iraq work prior to having ground forces move in?

65 Wow. No wonder you stick with snark, Hongqi.

You think we should invade Iran? What army do you suggest we attack a rather nationalistic country of 65+ million with right now? The best we can hope for is varying degrees of targeted strikes and naval action. I suspect W will get us to a naval blockade and limited strikes, but there doesn't seem time to build an effort to take out all of the nuke sites by Jan.

66

Honqi 63

No, of course I'm not suggesting we use nukes. With the advances in weaponry since WWII, military and political targets could be very easily be taken out without them.

67 Runnin,

I think if you read back over my comments you will see I am not advocating attacking Iran. As a matter of fact, I made much the same argument you did...as much as that pains me.

68 Honqi -
Only offering thoughts, not policies. Remember that I don't think its feasible for us to do currently, although I do not discount other actors.

Signing off, goodnight all.

69 >>Ah, see now THATS the kind of respectful disagreement I was talking about.

Respect is earned, not demanded. Respect is not earned by saying stupid things over and over again even if it makes you happy.

70 Joe,

Then why the ref to Japan 1945? What good does it do to take out military and political target without an occuping force? Do you think they will just fold up shop? I think the only one who did that was Momar Qadafi...still, that was funny.

71

Honqui ( 70 )

Modern conventional airborn weapons can be just just as affective as nuke. The point of my japan example was that japan was defeated without invasion (of their mainland)

Quaddafi, the serbs, hussain (to an extent).

72 Well, I see, then if you lose the snark we may be able to deal. But you seem to be suggesting no action in Iran because of the obvious lack of ground options. Is that so? If it is, you should rethink the objectives with Iran.

73 Runnin,

I have no problem at all with striking Iran...but, I want to hear how. Yes, I 100% say it can't be done without ground forces and there aren't enough with mulitple rotations and two fronts.

All I am asking is for someone to tell me how this attack on Iran will be carried out?

No good explanations yet. Hell, I am as open to it as the next guy, it would be nice for a little payback but how?

74 Joe,

What modern airborne weapons are you talking about? Yes, Japan was defeated without an invasion but that was because we dropped the bomb. Other than that, it would have cost millions of American lives, that is why we dropped it.

The only example you gave was Momar...but does that really count?

75 Mostly Navy, H, they're already on the way. Three carrier groups, 2-3k sorties + Tomahawks and whatever they're testing right now. Iran isn't a difficult enemy to beat down. Impossible to occupy, yes, but an ass kicking? Not so much.
 

76 Runnin,

The mistake most people make is that a military action has a political objective and not an ass kicking. What is the end game?

We bombed Iraq for years and years and only resolved the problem with a ground force.

Whatever they are testing? Now you are just making stuff up. Hope is not a plan.

77

Jack ( 60 )

>>Its true he might not be able get authourity to carry strikes against Iran, but at least he should be _trying_ to get authority - instead of offering deals!

What deals?

The policy for over a year has been to offer Iran economic "incentives" to stop its nuke program. See the link I gave earlier, for example. This was a decision announced by Rice a while back. I'll try to find more links.

Bush duly noted after 9/11 that Iran was part of an axis of evil. He was excoriated by both the press and the congress and got little if any support by his own party. Who and when did you want him to try and get support from?

That he can read a speech doesnt mean he appreciates what it says. And anyway, the press, congress, and the republicans are just as much cowering, unpricipled, apologising, apeasing weasles as he is.

Also, are you telling me a president should give up advocating a policy if it is unpopular, even if that policy is essential to national security? Should he advocate only popular ideas? Should we give up advocating free market reforms just because 51% of the population wants a nanny state to take care of them? Should advocates against slavery and for women's right to vote in the 1800s have given up?

By the way I think your Cap Lock key is stuck. Maybe some spittle got into it.

78 How dare you doubt the integrity of Obamessiah!

79 Not at all, H. I use "kicking ass" as a euphemism but there is definitely an end game with Iran. Well,  there isn't an "end" end game but there is definitely an objective with Iran. When you let go of easy snark obvious remarks like that will be clear.

The US strategy is still more or less in line with Murawiec's plan, although the time line is completely fracked. Iran is but an obstacle. Neutralize there nuke capabilities, force them to commit to terrorism abroad (or back out of it) while hamstringing their conventional military capabilities. US air and sea power can do that in 3-6 weeks.

Oh and the testing remark? If you knew squat you would know that development happens in the field now and the juiciest weapons are "tested" in force before they are assigned and officially deployed.

But whatever.

80

Honqi 74 :

Even if airstrikes don't force a full surrender, they're still worth it as a deterrent.

Muammar was the only example - but thats because we've been so hesitant to use force over the years.

Runnin 75 :

Great news, I hope they're actually going to be used.

81

Runnin:

development happens in the field now and the juiciest weapons are "tested" in force before they are assigned and officially deployed.

Is this to avoid procurement nightmares?

Are you talking about things like arming the predator UAV (which eventually became the reaper)?

82 Runnin,

You don't have a clue about the military and it shows. They are not winning through conventional military force, so hamstringing them accomplishes nothing. Did they move in force across the Iraq border...no.

You have to know what those weapons are before you can add them to your objective. Anybody who says the "juiciest weapons" is clearly outside of the comfort zone. Tell me how these "theoretical" weapons of yours work...nothing.

You do enjoy making stuff up out of thin air don't you?

83 Do you really think Rubin or his WaPo editor's will print a retraction tomorrow? No way... A lot of people won't even care it was a lie.  This is just another millionth lie in the MSM.  It fits the template, don't you know...

84 Are you talking about things like arming the predator UAV (which eventually became the reaper)?

Yes, those types of weapons and platforms that H seems to think are 'theoretical' until they are officially deployed. It has been decided that deploying "experimental" weapons systems is the best way to develop them.

They are not winning through conventional military force, so hamstringing them accomplishes nothing. Did they move in force across the Iraq border...no.

Ah, I see. You seem to be thinking very, very narrowly about the WoT. No wonder you're rooting for Obama. The objective is to remove Iran from the equation not simply stop them from interfering in Iraq as they are now. Have you even read Barnett and Murawiec, H? This isn't new stuff.

85 what i think is funny is how Bush is a Nazi! eleventy!!1!1

also I eat boogers.

86 John, have you met V the K? I bet you two could get together and make some sweet reactionary love.

87 Is it just me or is this evil bomber guy just an arrogant, condescending jerk?

88 None of these liberal wretched news journalists have one bit of ethics in them their all a bunch of scoundrels vile crawling journalists and infernal scribblers

89

Jackstraw ( 60 )

You are the reason we're in so much trouble. Its no longer the islamists, or their leftist apologists. Its you; Bush, republicans, people who should know better, people who claim to value America and freedom. But to value something means to actively pursue it, not cower on your knees paralyzed by fear and hostile to anyone who reminds you of your impotence and you moral vacuity. This isn't rocket science - when you country is under attack, you go to war. Anything less is moral treason.

90

> a bunch of scoundrels vile crawling journalists and infernal scribblers

Best description of the MSM ever.

Nobody's going to attack Iran. At least not the US. Israel might if they feel Iran is too close to actually getting a working Bomb, as they did with Iraq years ago. The next President who goes to war in the Middle East may find himself facing impeachment.

Blockade the Straits of Hormuz? Economic chaos follows. No US President wants to campaign for re-election on that. Never happen.

Use nukes against our enemies in the GWOT? Never happen. Suppose a terrorist nuke goes off in New York or Philly or wherever. Who do you nuke for payback? The bomb won't come from a plane with clear markings on it. The people who set it off won't have uniforms with identifiable insignia. We might be able to figure out who probably was behind it- but the bar for nuclear retaliation is way higher than that. No US president is gonna say 'screw it- I'm launching an attack. Fire up the missiles!' He'd be crucified.

No- I think we will spin our wheels until another 9/11-type attack occurs. Especially under our next President, B Hussein Obama. He combines the fecklessness of Carter with the glib obfuscating bullshit of Clinton. The result will surely be disaster. And the MSM will write it up as Bush's fault.

 

91 A liberal lying about McCain's record, and you're surprised? But that's not nearly as reprehensible as a comment I saw yesterday where one of those "base conservatives" accused McCain of surrendering to the Vietnamese. That SOB should be taken out into the alley and shot in the back of the head.

92 what i think is funny is how Bush seems to have forgotten where the Bush family fortune came from; Prescott Bush was not only a supporter of Nazi Germany he was a director of the Hamburg America Steamship line which among other things was investigated for its Nazi propaganda activities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescott_Bush

Posted by: John Ryan at May 17, 2008 01:13 AM (TcoRJ)

Um, no.

Dude, it's sad enough to be citing a Wikipedia article as a source for a statement like that, but would you at least bother to read the aforesaid Wikipedia article when you do, because it really doesn't back up what you're saying at all

For starters, it says right there at the top:

a Wall Street executive banker and founding partner with Brown Brothers Harriman,

and

[Prescott] Bush was born in Columbus, Ohio to Flora Sheldon and Samuel Prescott Bush. Samuel Bush was a railroad executive, then a steel company president, and during World War I, also a federal government official in charge of coordination and assistance to major weapons contractors.

Do you think that might have something to do with his family fortune?  Just maybe?

Are you aware of many railroad executives and steel company presidents who are poor?

You're aware Brown Brothers Harriman is a legitimate bank, right?  You do realize it's a major financial firm that exists to this day?  http://www.bbh.com/

Do you think that being a founding partner in it could have something to do with the Bush being well off?

So,

let's see -

In determining where his family fortune came from, you can either site the fact he was a founder of a big bank and his father was a steel company president . . .

or

you can bring up the fact that, among many financial holdings, he owned **one** share in a German bank on behalf of another guy who (while an early backer) had to flee Germany by 1939 as a result of turning anti-Nazi . . . and yet deduce from this that Prescott Bush was a Nazi.

Do you have any idea how stupid this is?

John, for other trolls I'll attribute appearing ignorant to be the result of just not knowing any better, but you seem to actively try to be idiotic.

93 P.S., on the steamship company - investigated =/= did -- The government would have been stupid not to investigate a large German company for some sort of ties, but you do realize this company, the Hamburg-America Line, was at one time the largest shipping company on the planet not some Nazi operation (in fact I think one of my ancestors may have come over on it, so maybe he was a Nazi . . . sure, he was Jewish, but that's about as substantial of a connection as there is here). Saying a guy was at one time director of it is just somewhat tenuous in tying him to Nazi-dom.  1.) after 60 years, if you have to put "investigated" and not "did," it's because you don't have something substantial tying him to it; 2.) if you're going to do that, though, can we finally make the Obama - Director - Bill Ayers connection?

94 That SOB should be taken out into the alley and shot in the back of the head.

Too humane.

95 Some dork (probably John Ryan with a different moniker) dropped off a similarly nonsensical Prescott Bush comment over at Nice Deb's. Don't know why this silliness is coming back this week.

As far as Iran goes, you might want to consider the geopolitical situation that has made it more difficult for us to simply invade that country. After we invaded Iraq, Russia and China grew alarmed at our growing presence in the Middle East, so they closed ranks and started funneling money, weapons and technology to Iran (and to a lesser extent, Syria). They did this as a deliberate counter to our influence, knowing (suggesting?) what Iran would do with these resources.

We've been trying to drive a wedge between Russia and Iran ever since, but that's been slow going, and has thus far just been an opportunity for Russia to get concessions from the US.

Iran and North Korea (who also has China as a patron) are just chess pieces being used by the big boys to position themselves for access to oil, and to eliminate US influence in Asia. So we can't just waltz in and start blazing away without considering how the other players will react.

This is the game Bush has been playing behind the scenes. A game Obama can't even comprehend, let alone play well.

96 Russia knows Iran is  a thorn in our sides. They'll do everything they can to keep the thorn in place.

97

Joe at May 17, 2008 02:10 AM (0u7VI)

Learn to pick your fights with enemies, not allies. Quit being a fool hardy loose canon of friendly fire and make your points on topic. Otherwise your blather is fooly full of yourself. Get some R&R and clean up your act or sound the part of a troll.

98

Whatever means a campaign uses will cut both ways.

Having legitimate accomplishments behind and around you goes a long way in deflecting the attack of malicious falsehood.

Empty words are their own just reward.

99 A fool and his money are soon parted.

100

JackStraw,

I am going to agree that Bush could, in the future, get credit or getting the ball rolling in the right direction in the Muslim World.  If the grand scheme is successful. 

I have no doubt that it can or that it should, but I have very real doubts about whether it will.  Partly because W gave up, by my reckoning, shortly after the election of 2004 (he began giving up before then, with the whole 16 words thing).  He's shown a little life on Iraq, but none on the regional issue.  I think it is WAY overblown to say that the Iranian regime must be destroyed today - but they need a response to their many provations that hurts them.  If we have Iranian IRGC choppers coming over the border on radar, we should have burning wreckage of Iranian IRGC choppers shortly after, and CNN needs to be taken to the wreckage by the US military right away. 

And if even Bush can't carry on the fight anymore, what are we to do?  Apparently, our only choices for President are those who worry about hurting terrorists itty bitty wittle feewings. 

Dark?  Hell yeah.  And it will get darker. 

 

 

101 It appears Ted Kennedy had a serious stroke. Though the news reports aren't stating how bad it is, the photo of him being transported to a hospital show him intubated with assisted breathing.

So, who's most likely to run for senator in Mass.?

102 That SOB should be taken out into the alley and shot in the back of the head.

I like the cut of your jib, fellow patriot!

103 blaster, "Partly because W gave up, by my reckoning, shortly after the election of 2004" could more appropriately be directed towards the segment of the public who specifically say just that. IMO

104

Someone please photoshop the

RINOSTRICH

 

105

[1] 58% of American adults say they DON'T "believe" in the Theory of Evolution.

Maybe because I get a little creeped out when one of you evangelical atheists demand that I belieeeeeve in what is ostensibly a scientific proposition.  You know, just like your dumb ass belieeeeeves, in the face of the overwhelming-and-growing evidence to the contrary, that human-produced CO2 is going to KILL US ALL!!!!1111

[2] 74% of American adults claim they DO "believe" in the existence of a universal super-being who sends human beings on the Planet Earth highly nuanced coded messages in a book the earliest writing parts of which were first written between 3000 [the Old Testament] & 150 [Book of Mormon] years ago.

As opposed to the belief that the infinitely complex and incomprehensible universe just plum appeared out of an origin-less singularity or other crude phenomena and then continued to evolve by an endless series of random accidents into watchwork perfect precision.  Without any blueprint whatsoever.

Wow -- sounds pretty fucking stupid to me.  I'd be embarrassed to belieeeeve something so ridiculous, but I'll take a copy of your newsletter if you'll just get the fuck away from my house.

Saw a new Wal-Mart driving home from work the other day.  Still haven't figured out if it was put together by a construction crew following a plan or if trillions of tiny matter particles just happened to find themselves in that configuration by happenstance.  I'll keep you posted.

[3] 100% of right wing bloggers believe the American establishment media is left wing.

Oh, bad news, sweetie.  About the only people left that don't see the MSM as hyper-partisan in exactly one direction are you and your fellow sweaty-toothed loons over at DU that assume that any anchor who doesn't openly call for Bush's execution is a right-wing shill.  And because the worthless pustules that comprise the ranks of journalism just can't seem to contain their orgasmic love for Candidate Jesus, your clueless circle is about to get a lot smaller.

Why, I'd even hyperbolically argue that some leftist media hacks are going to start going to bat for Hitler just to make Obama's promise to felate every Middle Eastern mass murderer with his cock out seem "reasonable".  Wait and see!

106 John Ryan quotes wikipedia....hahahahahahahaha!

What an idiot.

107

Wow, long thread.  We're not the only ones sick of the MSM.  Guess who has "discovered" the media is biased?

The Hill girls are mad.  Read this link to feel their anger.  http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/5/17/121727/652

More popcorn PLEASE.

Kemp

 

108

yeah at least msnbc doesnt go around with a ree around its neck saying "fair and balanced" Id rather settle for honest advertising. Fair and balanced my fat rear.

Also by the way whats so wrong with the name hussein or being an arab. I mean christians dont have to apologize for falwell or hagee the most anti-christian  christians around. Thank god falwell and helms are gone. wohoo!

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141 Factors Replica Watches About The Rolex replica watches Oyster The Oyster is so closely get in touch with Rolex, and it is inevitably that some people think these are the only Replica watches Rolex manufacture. Others suppose that there is a single Oyster watch. But as a matter of fact, the name Oyster does not actually meant for a rolex Watches particular watch you can buy rolex watches or even to a series but to a type of case that available in some of the Rolex ranges. History The Oyster case was first released in 1926. The objective was to protect the workings of the watch from dust and moisture. Early watches were far from waterproof. The Oyster tag heuer Watchescase was an tag heuer watches innovative design to eliminate these problems. It had a new double locking crown that screwed into place. It has been compared to the hatch on a submarine. Like a submarine, the Oyster case was waterproof. In 1927 Mercedes Gleitze swam the English breitling Watches Channel breitling watches . Before she set off she was presented with a Rolex Oyster. When she arrived, the watch was still working perfectly. The resulting publicity gave the new case a massive boost. Why is it called Oyster? Legend has it that Hans cartier Watches Wilsdorf cartier watches, who invented the Oyster, chose the name because the new case reminded him of the difficulty he had experienced prising open oysters at dinner. Since then the Oyster has further, particularly advanced. Many Oyster watches today are omega Watches perpetual-self-winding, in other omega watches words, it does not require to expose the mechanism to the outside world in order to wind it. The Osyter Perpetual is one of the toughest, most durable, most reliable watches (under truly adverse conditions). It is probably the best mechanical watch money can buy.

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